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Posted to dev@directory.apache.org by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@apache.org> on 2007/06/19 13:44:13 UTC

Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Hi,

I'm using Poseidon UML to draw cool schemas. Now, I'm facing a
difficult choice, as the free edition is quite limited :
1) I buy the standard edition (56$ a year, not very expensive, as I'm
in europ, and as € is quite strong ;) _but_ it will be for my own
usage
2) we ask for the community edition, available for the team, under the
following terms :

    * The logo 'Sponsored by Apollo for Eclipse' or 'Sponsored by
Poseidon for UML' must appear on the member project's website, no
smaller than 135x55 pixels.
    * The logo must function as a hyperlink to the Gentleware website:
www.gentleware.com.
    * Gentleware may refer to the member project as a Gentleware
customer in marketing and sales materials, both online and in print.
    * The license(s) remains the property of Gentleware AG. The
license(s) is rented, not sold. Licensee may not sell, redistribute,
encumber, give, lend, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer
the license. The license(s) granted is only for the project specified
and may not be transferred.

Are those four points acceptable? Point #4 seems ok to me, point #1
and #2 are quite acceptable, as we already have logo of other products
pointing to the company web-site (YourKit, JetBrains). But point #3
seems quite embarrassing.

wdyt? What is the Apache position ?

Thanks !
-- 
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com

Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Hi All,

I'm also interested by this issue (not for the same reason)

Thanks

Jacques Le Roux

De : "Emmanuel Lecharny" <el...@apache.org>
> Hi,
>
> I'm using Poseidon UML to draw cool schemas. Now, I'm facing a
> difficult choice, as the free edition is quite limited :
> 1) I buy the standard edition (56$ a year, not very expensive, as I'm
> in europ, and as € is quite strong ;) _but_ it will be for my own
> usage
> 2) we ask for the community edition, available for the team, under the
> following terms :
>
>     * The logo 'Sponsored by Apollo for Eclipse' or 'Sponsored by
> Poseidon for UML' must appear on the member project's website, no
> smaller than 135x55 pixels.
>     * The logo must function as a hyperlink to the Gentleware website:
> www.gentleware.com.
>     * Gentleware may refer to the member project as a Gentleware
> customer in marketing and sales materials, both online and in print.
>     * The license(s) remains the property of Gentleware AG. The
> license(s) is rented, not sold. Licensee may not sell, redistribute,
> encumber, give, lend, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer
> the license. The license(s) granted is only for the project specified
> and may not be transferred.
>
> Are those four points acceptable? Point #4 seems ok to me, point #1
> and #2 are quite acceptable, as we already have logo of other products
> pointing to the company web-site (YourKit, JetBrains). But point #3
> seems quite embarrassing.
>
> wdyt? What is the Apache position ?
>
> Thanks !
> -- 
> Regards,
> Cordialement,
> Emmanuel Lécharny
> www.iktek.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
> only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
> constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
> official ASF policies and documents.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>


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Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@apache.org>.
El mar, 19-06-2007 a las 14:14 +0200, Emmanuel Lecharny escribió:
> Thanks Mark !
> 
> do you suggest we should ask them money for using their software ? ;)
> 

Actually, Nokia paid a lot of money to have Neo using one of their
cellulars in Matrix... ditto for most "placement" agreements.

I'm not claiming that the ASF should be paid for *saying prominently*
that we use some software, but I'm not saying that it would be
unreasonable.

> Reagarding #1 and #2, we already have had this discussion and I
> _think_ that at the end, it's not a problem to add those kind of
> pointers to the web site. However, if this is not acceptable, then we
> should state it quickly, because we already have a few of those
> icons/pointer on our web site :
> http://directory.apache.org/community%26resources/thanks-to.html
> 

IIRC, while "placements" in the project home were considered onerous,
placements in a thanks page were not. The only problem I see globally is
that the permission to quote the project as a customer does not include
any right on the logos, etc. In any case, I don't think legal-discuss is
the best place to ask, though I'm not really sure where it would be,
barring board

Regards
Santiago

> Thanks !
> 
> On 6/19/07, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm using Poseidon UML to draw cool schemas. Now, I'm facing a
> > > difficult choice, as the free edition is quite limited :
> > > 1) I buy the standard edition (56$ a year, not very expensive, as I'm
> > > in europ, and as € is quite strong ;) _but_ it will be for my own
> > > usage
> > > 2) we ask for the community edition, available for the team, under the
> > > following terms :
> > >
> > >    * The logo 'Sponsored by Apollo for Eclipse' or 'Sponsored by
> > > Poseidon for UML' must appear on the member project's website, no
> > > smaller than 135x55 pixels.
> > >    * The logo must function as a hyperlink to the Gentleware website:
> > > www.gentleware.com.
> > >    * Gentleware may refer to the member project as a Gentleware
> > > customer in marketing and sales materials, both online and in print.
> > >    * The license(s) remains the property of Gentleware AG. The
> > > license(s) is rented, not sold. Licensee may not sell, redistribute,
> > > encumber, give, lend, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer
> > > the license. The license(s) granted is only for the project specified
> > > and may not be transferred.
> > >
> > > Are those four points acceptable? Point #4 seems ok to me, point #1
> > > and #2 are quite acceptable, as we already have logo of other products
> > > pointing to the company web-site (YourKit, JetBrains). But point #3
> > > seems quite embarrassing.
> > >
> > > wdyt? What is the Apache position ?
> >
> > Not speaking officially, only from experience.
> >
> > #4 is fine, #1-#3 are not. The reasoning as I have had it explained to
> > me / seen it explained is that a software licence donation cost the
> > grantor nothing in real terms (whereas hard cash or a hardware
> > donation does).
> >
> > It is worth comparing what they are asking for with
> > http://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html
> >
> > What I don't now is how much of this is Apache policy and how much is
> > left up to the PMC. The PRC list might be a better place to ask this
> > question.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> 
> 


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DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Thanks Mark !

do you suggest we should ask them money for using their software ? ;)

Reagarding #1 and #2, we already have had this discussion and I
_think_ that at the end, it's not a problem to add those kind of
pointers to the web site. However, if this is not acceptable, then we
should state it quickly, because we already have a few of those
icons/pointer on our web site :
http://directory.apache.org/community%26resources/thanks-to.html

Thanks !

On 6/19/07, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm using Poseidon UML to draw cool schemas. Now, I'm facing a
> > difficult choice, as the free edition is quite limited :
> > 1) I buy the standard edition (56$ a year, not very expensive, as I'm
> > in europ, and as € is quite strong ;) _but_ it will be for my own
> > usage
> > 2) we ask for the community edition, available for the team, under the
> > following terms :
> >
> >    * The logo 'Sponsored by Apollo for Eclipse' or 'Sponsored by
> > Poseidon for UML' must appear on the member project's website, no
> > smaller than 135x55 pixels.
> >    * The logo must function as a hyperlink to the Gentleware website:
> > www.gentleware.com.
> >    * Gentleware may refer to the member project as a Gentleware
> > customer in marketing and sales materials, both online and in print.
> >    * The license(s) remains the property of Gentleware AG. The
> > license(s) is rented, not sold. Licensee may not sell, redistribute,
> > encumber, give, lend, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer
> > the license. The license(s) granted is only for the project specified
> > and may not be transferred.
> >
> > Are those four points acceptable? Point #4 seems ok to me, point #1
> > and #2 are quite acceptable, as we already have logo of other products
> > pointing to the company web-site (YourKit, JetBrains). But point #3
> > seems quite embarrassing.
> >
> > wdyt? What is the Apache position ?
>
> Not speaking officially, only from experience.
>
> #4 is fine, #1-#3 are not. The reasoning as I have had it explained to
> me / seen it explained is that a software licence donation cost the
> grantor nothing in real terms (whereas hard cash or a hardware
> donation does).
>
> It is worth comparing what they are asking for with
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html
>
> What I don't now is how much of this is Apache policy and how much is
> left up to the PMC. The PRC list might be a better place to ask this
> question.
>
> Mark
>


-- 
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com

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only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Ok, will do.

Thanks Justin !

On 6/19/07, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On 6/19/07, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> > What I don't now is how much of this is Apache policy and how much is
> > left up to the PMC. The PRC list might be a better place to ask this
> > question.
>
> Correct - this is a PRC issue *not* a legal issue.  Please email them
> at press@apache.org.
>
> Thanks.  -- justin
>


-- 
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 6/19/07, Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> What I don't now is how much of this is Apache policy and how much is
> left up to the PMC. The PRC list might be a better place to ask this
> question.

Correct - this is a PRC issue *not* a legal issue.  Please email them
at press@apache.org.

Thanks.  -- justin

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Are Gentleware community edition terms of usage acceptable ?

Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
Emmanuel Lecharny wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm using Poseidon UML to draw cool schemas. Now, I'm facing a
> difficult choice, as the free edition is quite limited :
> 1) I buy the standard edition (56$ a year, not very expensive, as I'm
> in europ, and as € is quite strong ;) _but_ it will be for my own
> usage
> 2) we ask for the community edition, available for the team, under the
> following terms :
> 
>    * The logo 'Sponsored by Apollo for Eclipse' or 'Sponsored by
> Poseidon for UML' must appear on the member project's website, no
> smaller than 135x55 pixels.
>    * The logo must function as a hyperlink to the Gentleware website:
> www.gentleware.com.
>    * Gentleware may refer to the member project as a Gentleware
> customer in marketing and sales materials, both online and in print.
>    * The license(s) remains the property of Gentleware AG. The
> license(s) is rented, not sold. Licensee may not sell, redistribute,
> encumber, give, lend, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer
> the license. The license(s) granted is only for the project specified
> and may not be transferred.
> 
> Are those four points acceptable? Point #4 seems ok to me, point #1
> and #2 are quite acceptable, as we already have logo of other products
> pointing to the company web-site (YourKit, JetBrains). But point #3
> seems quite embarrassing.
> 
> wdyt? What is the Apache position ?

Not speaking officially, only from experience.

#4 is fine, #1-#3 are not. The reasoning as I have had it explained to
me / seen it explained is that a software licence donation cost the
grantor nothing in real terms (whereas hard cash or a hardware
donation does).

It is worth comparing what they are asking for with
http://www.apache.org/foundation/sponsorship.html

What I don't now is how much of this is Apache policy and how much is
left up to the PMC. The PRC list might be a better place to ask this
question.

Mark

---------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER: Discussions on this list are informational and educational
only.  Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF.  See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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