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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by andrewl <an...@hostahaven.com> on 2000/11/20 02:44:20 UTC
I need a brief overview...
I recently read a review comparing application development
tools. Cold Fusion and a product that the reviewer called
JSP from Apache, ended up on top for features, functions,
and benefits.
I need to discover is there are top-level down documents
availabe that explain what the Jakarta products enable the
user to accomplish. Assume that I am a user, and know very
little about Java, other than it is a development language
for the internet.
TIA,
--
Andrew Lietzow, Plantsman http://hostahaven.com
HostaHaven.com mailto:andrewl@hostahaven.com
1250 41st Street 515-274-0300 voice
Des Moines, IA 50311-2516
Re: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Danno Ferrin <sh...@earthlink.net>.
Jon Stevens wrote:
> on 11/20/2000 9:03 AM, "Braxton Robbason" <ro...@pulpfree.com> wrote:
>
>> <jsp:query name="foo" datasource="abc">
>> SELECT COL_ID, COL_NAME
>> FROM TABLE1
>> WHERE COL_ID=<%=locVar%>
>> </jsp:query>
>>
>> <jsp:output query="foo">
>> <br><%=foo.COL1_ID%>
>> </jsp:output>
>
>
> Oh my god. You have to be kidding me. This is exactly why I think that JSP
> sucks balls (it doesn't prevent you from doing something nuts like the
> above). What is MVC about the above? You are embedding database logic into
> your JSP pages! Gross!
That's actually what I like about JSP, it does not impose a design
methodology on you. If you want to code in MVC you can, without
contortion, code in MVC. Simply allowing quick and dirty is not a fault
in my mind. It's the artist and not the tool that matters. Painting
with your toes may be considered bad form by some, but I've seen some
great paintings that have used that technique.
--Danno
>
> At least figure out a way to integrate Turbine's Peers into JSP code.
>
> <http://java.apache.org/turbine/peers.html>
>
> Or, even better...dump JSP and go the Turbine/Velocity route if you want to
> build applications that are going to be maintainable and MVC.
>
> thanks,
>
> -jon
>
p.s. Clearly you have a favorite. If those are the tools you are most
comfortable using by all means use them!
RE: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Braxton Robbason <ro...@pulpfree.com>.
I guess the suggestion here is that there are some times when embedding
database logic in your jsp pages makes for faster development. Depending on
what you're doing, it can be a bad idea for maintainability or not. I don't
think religious adherence to the separation of display logic and business
logic makes sense.
A. example of when you want to separate logic:
account creation page. you want to have users submit their information to a
page that handles various cases intelligently (invalid username, badly
formatted date).
B. example of when you don't want to separate logic:
page that admins use that lists users and lets admins do various things with
the users. here you just want to pull the user list from a database and
format it in the jsp. Having to code an extra bean for each page doesn't
make sense. stuff like this is very important to many web apps (not all of
course) and it's important to be able to build these pages easily in jsps.
make the easy things easy and the difficult things possible. database access
is easy in cold fusion, it should be easy in jsps.
thanks for your constructive suggestions. Turbine sounds like an
interesting project.
Braxton
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:jon@latchkey.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 2:34 PM
To: general@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: I need a brief overview...
on 11/20/2000 9:03 AM, "Braxton Robbason" <ro...@pulpfree.com> wrote:
> <jsp:query name="foo" datasource="abc">
> SELECT COL_ID, COL_NAME
> FROM TABLE1
> WHERE COL_ID=<%=locVar%>
> </jsp:query>
>
> <jsp:output query="foo">
> <br><%=foo.COL1_ID%>
> </jsp:output>
Oh my god. You have to be kidding me. This is exactly why I think that JSP
sucks balls (it doesn't prevent you from doing something nuts like the
above). What is MVC about the above? You are embedding database logic into
your JSP pages! Gross!
At least figure out a way to integrate Turbine's Peers into JSP code.
<http://java.apache.org/turbine/peers.html>
Or, even better...dump JSP and go the Turbine/Velocity route if you want to
build applications that are going to be maintainable and MVC.
thanks,
-jon
--
twice of not very much is still a lot more than not very much
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Re: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 11/20/2000 9:03 AM, "Braxton Robbason" <ro...@pulpfree.com> wrote:
> <jsp:query name="foo" datasource="abc">
> SELECT COL_ID, COL_NAME
> FROM TABLE1
> WHERE COL_ID=<%=locVar%>
> </jsp:query>
>
> <jsp:output query="foo">
> <br><%=foo.COL1_ID%>
> </jsp:output>
Oh my god. You have to be kidding me. This is exactly why I think that JSP
sucks balls (it doesn't prevent you from doing something nuts like the
above). What is MVC about the above? You are embedding database logic into
your JSP pages! Gross!
At least figure out a way to integrate Turbine's Peers into JSP code.
<http://java.apache.org/turbine/peers.html>
Or, even better...dump JSP and go the Turbine/Velocity route if you want to
build applications that are going to be maintainable and MVC.
thanks,
-jon
--
twice of not very much is still a lot more than not very much
RE: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Braxton Robbason <ro...@pulpfree.com>.
from the perspective of a CF refugee, I think JSP would be perfect if
database access were easier. in cold fusion, running a dynamic query and
displaying the results in whatever format is really easy, while in JSP it's
very painful.
I opened a project on sourceforge (http://jspquery.sourceforge.net) with the
aim of correcting this, but it's still in planning. The idea is to use a
TLD that will let you write:
<jsp:query name="foo" datasource="abc">
SELECT COL_ID, COL_NAME
FROM TABLE1
WHERE COL_ID=<%=locVar%>
</jsp:query>
<jsp:output query="foo">
<br><%=foo.COL1_ID%>
</jsp:output>
etc., where the column names can be called as properties of the named query
from a jsp page.
on the backend, I think this would have to be done by creating and compiling
separate classes for each unique combination of column names returned by a
query. There would obviously be serious performance issues that would have
to be dealt with.
If anyone's interested in discussing this with me, please contact me
directly.
Braxton Robbason
robbason@pulpfree.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Morley [mailto:stephen@morley.net]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 8:49 AM
To: general@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: RE: I need a brief overview...
The review I think he is alluding to is on znet at
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646052,00.html
But it will do you little good as they actually state that ColdFusion is the
best product to use. At least that is what I got out of
the article. I don't understand what the criteria they use was and am very
confused as to how they reached some of their
conclusions. If you check out slashdot, they have some good comments on the
article at
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/10/31/1246208.shtml. I still believe that
JSPs are the best tool for web scripting, but you'll find
very little to backup that contention in this article.
------------------------------------
Stephen Morley
Director of Technology
FollowUp.net
203 226 5853 x114
www.followup.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Smierciak [mailto:esmierciak@enduden.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 8:15 AM
To: general@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: I need a brief overview...
Andrew,
Could you point the group to that review please? I'm always looking for
ways to defend my choice of Apache-developed technologies
from the ignorance of clients and management.
Ed Smierciak
andrewl wrote:
I recently read a review comparing application development tools. Cold
Fusion and a product that the reviewer called JSP from
Apache, ended up on top for features, functions, and benefits.
I need to discover is there are top-level down documents availabe that
explain what the Jakarta products enable the user to
accomplish. Assume that I am a user, and know very little about Java, other
than it is a development language for the internet.
TIA,
--
Andrew Lietzow, Plantsman http://hostahaven.com
HostaHaven.com mailto:andrewl@hostahaven.com
1250 41st Street 515-274-0300 voice
Des Moines, IA 50311-2516
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
RE: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Stephen Morley <st...@morley.net>.
The review I think he is alluding to is on znet at http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646052,00.html
But it will do you little good as they actually state that ColdFusion is the best product to use. At least that is what I got out of
the article. I don't understand what the criteria they use was and am very confused as to how they reached some of their
conclusions. If you check out slashdot, they have some good comments on the article at
http://slashdot.org/articles/00/10/31/1246208.shtml. I still believe that JSPs are the best tool for web scripting, but you'll find
very little to backup that contention in this article.
------------------------------------
Stephen Morley
Director of Technology
FollowUp.net
203 226 5853 x114
www.followup.net
-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Smierciak [mailto:esmierciak@enduden.com]
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2000 8:15 AM
To: general@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: I need a brief overview...
Andrew,
Could you point the group to that review please? I'm always looking for ways to defend my choice of Apache-developed technologies
from the ignorance of clients and management.
Ed Smierciak
andrewl wrote:
I recently read a review comparing application development tools. Cold Fusion and a product that the reviewer called JSP from
Apache, ended up on top for features, functions, and benefits.
I need to discover is there are top-level down documents availabe that explain what the Jakarta products enable the user to
accomplish. Assume that I am a user, and know very little about Java, other than it is a development language for the internet.
TIA,
--
Andrew Lietzow, Plantsman http://hostahaven.com
HostaHaven.com mailto:andrewl@hostahaven.com
1250 41st Street 515-274-0300 voice
Des Moines, IA 50311-2516
Re: I need a brief overview...
Posted by Ed Smierciak <es...@enduden.com>.
Andrew,
Could you point the group to that review please? I'm always looking for
ways to defend my choice of Apache-developed technologies from the
ignorance of clients and management.
Ed Smierciak
andrewl wrote:
> I recently read a review comparing application development tools.
> Cold Fusion and a product that the reviewer called JSP from Apache,
> ended up on top for features, functions, and benefits.
>
> I need to discover is there are top-level down documents availabe that
> explain what the Jakarta products enable the user to accomplish.
> Assume that I am a user, and know very little about Java, other than
> it is a development language for the internet.
>
> TIA,
>
>
> --
> Andrew Lietzow, Plantsman http://hostahaven.com
> HostaHaven.com mailto:andrewl@hostahaven.com
> 1250 41st Street 515-274-0300 voice
> Des Moines, IA 50311-2516
>
>