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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Noam Tamim <no...@gmail.com> on 2006/04/01 11:01:49 UTC

Re: Web 2.0 meets Source Control

Maybe it will help if I'll explain the motive for this idea. There are a few
SVN browsers, like WebSVN and ViewVC. They are nice, but they only allow
read access. What they miss is an easy way to download a file, edit it (in
an external application) and then commit the changes. The simple solution is
adding a file upload control in HTML, but that's very inconvenient. Because
of security limitations, an extension is probably needed to facilitate
automatic or semi-automatic upload (commit).
So it's quite likely that all that's needed is an extension on top of
ViewVC. Ideas?

Noam.

On 4/1/06, Noam Tamim <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It seems like there are hundreds, if not thousands, of new startups that
> develop so called AJAX applications. It also seems like more and more
> organizations are adopting Subversion as the source control system.
>
> In my mind, there's an open source AJAX web application that provides
> read/write access to a Subversion repository. Think TortoiseSVN, but in your
> browser. The UI shows the entire source tree, allowing you to check out and
> then commit files (a supporting Firefox extension comes to mind). Perhaps,
> you can check out a Word document from the repository, open it directly in
> Word, edit and commit. Text files you can edit inside the browser. Either
> the extension or the web app will provide the programmer's equivalent of a
> WYSIWYG editor: a text editor with syntax highlighting and smart
> indentation.
>
> In the second phase, this system might allow to even build and run the
> software under source control (on the server?). The options are unlimited...
>
> Does this idea make sense to anyone here? I'm a full-time C/C++ programmer
> and software engineer, not a web developer, so I'm unlikely to do it, but
> I'd like to know if anyone but me thinks it's a good idea, and perhaps
> willing to work on it.
>
>
> -- Noam.
>
>

Re: Web 2.0 meets Source Control

Posted by Peter Michaux <pe...@gmail.com>.
On 4/1/06, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <ka...@thinrope.net> wrote:
>
> Please avoid top-posting!

People still care about this? Jeez. Let it go.

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Re: Web 2.0 meets Source Control

Posted by Noam Tamim <no...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for your commentary. Please see below for more.

On 4/1/06, Kalin KOZHUHAROV <ka...@thinrope.net> wrote:
>
>
> No, unless subversion implements a single file checkout (not in the near
> future) that will be too much overhead.


OK, I accept that without single-file-checkout this is probably not
feasible.

>> Text files you can edit inside the browser. Either the extension or
> >> the web app will provide the programmer's equivalent of a WYSIWYG
> >> editor: a text editor with syntax highlighting and smart indentation.
>
> Subversion cannot work without a working copy. So you'll need one any
> way.
> Do you keep it on the server (imagine 2K people trying to edit one
> text file each at the same time)?
> Or on the client (imagine those 2K AJAX sessions)?


The idea was to keep a working copy (perhaps one per user?) on the server.
But again - this is probably infeasible.

>> Does this idea make sense to anyone here? I'm a full-time C/C++
> >> programmer and software engineer, not a web developer, so I'm
> >> unlikely to do it, but I'd like to know if anyone but me thinks it's
> >> a good idea, and perhaps willing to work on it.
> As it seems - not to me. At least not in its current state.


The fact that the application is currently infeasible does not make the idea
itself bad.

> Maybe it will help if I'll explain the motive for this idea. There are a
> > few SVN browsers, like WebSVN and ViewVC. They are nice, but they only
> > allow read access. What they miss is an easy way to download a file,
> > edit it (in an external application) and then commit the changes.
>
> So you want everything, the kitchen sink included?
> May not be that good of an idea. Make simple tools that interoperate
> cleanly, one tool - one task, every tool the best for its task.


No, not everything. I was aiming for something that allows quick and
painless  access to the repository. Downloading software is not the issue
here. Most developers I met this already use Firefox..

This above may seem too harsh, but my belief is that all users should be
> certified before ever touching a networked PC (and nowadays all are
> networked :^) It is no less dangerous than driving a car without a
> license if you think about it.


I agree with you on that. I was just trying to figure out a way of improving
the lives of myself  and other developers. In light of your comments, I
agree this currently makes no sense.


Thanks,
Noam.

Re: Web 2.0 meets Source Control

Posted by Kalin KOZHUHAROV <ka...@thinrope.net>.
Please avoid top-posting!

Noam Tamim wrote:
> On 4/1/06, Noam Tamim <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It seems like there are hundreds, if not thousands, of new startups
>> that develop so called AJAX applications. It also seems like more
>> and more organizations are adopting Subversion as the source control
>> system.
>>
>> In my mind, there's an open source AJAX web application that
>> provides read/write access to a Subversion repository. Think
>> TortoiseSVN, but in your browser. The UI shows the entire source
>> tree, allowing you to check out and then commit files (a supporting
>> Firefox extension comes to mind).
Fx extensions *are* slow...
What do you do without Fx extension?
(no, without Fx - we are simply not discussing :-)

>> Perhaps, you can check out a Word document from the repository, open
>> it directly in Word, edit and commit.
OK, that will be slow by all means. Not to mention that you need Word
most of the times. And just thinking about the overhead of:

1. checkout the *directory* where this Word file is (imagine 2K files :-)
2. fork Word to edit this file
3. edit & save & quit Word
4. commit
5. delete the whole tree (those 2K files)

No, unless subversion implements a single file checkout (not in the near
future) that will be too much overhead.

>> Text files you can edit inside the browser. Either the extension or
>> the web app will provide the programmer's equivalent of a WYSIWYG
>> editor: a text editor with syntax highlighting and smart indentation.

Subversion cannot work without a working copy. So you'll need one any
way.
Do you keep it on the server (imagine 2K people trying to edit one
text file each at the same time)?
Or on the client (imagine those 2K AJAX sessions)?

>> In the second phase, this system might allow to even build and run
>> the software under source control (on the server?). The options are
>> unlimited...
Well actually that might be easier and you don't need AJAX for that
usually.

>> Does this idea make sense to anyone here? I'm a full-time C/C++
>> programmer and software engineer, not a web developer, so I'm
>> unlikely to do it, but I'd like to know if anyone but me thinks it's
>> a good idea, and perhaps willing to work on it.
As it seems - not to me. At least not in its current state.

> Maybe it will help if I'll explain the motive for this idea. There are a
> few SVN browsers, like WebSVN and ViewVC. They are nice, but they only
> allow read access. What they miss is an easy way to download a file,
> edit it (in an external application) and then commit the changes.

So you want everything, the kitchen sink included?
May not be that good of an idea. Make simple tools that interoperate
cleanly, one tool - one task, every tool the best for its task.

> The simple solution is adding a file upload control in HTML, but
> that's very inconvenient. Because of security limitations, an
> extension is probably needed to facilitate automatic or semi-automatic
> upload (commit).
Upload and commit are two very different things. When you commit in
subversion, the client calculates the diff and sends only it (the delta)
to the server.

Or you plan to implement a subversion client in AJAX and/or Fx
extension? Good luck then, it'll need some time.

And what will be the good thing after we have that? Instead of
downloading TSVN (for windoze people) you'll have to download Fx (ok,
*you* have it), then an extenstion. See a difference?

> So it's quite likely that all that's needed is an extension on top of
> ViewVC. Ideas?
You can work on improving ViewVC with some AJAX if you think it will be
useful. But so far, such c00l usage has not been shown effective. Yes,
it may turn good for some complete n00bs, but that will be just in the
beginning - then they'll hate it because it is too slow, too limited or
just too shiny. If they spend a bit of time to learn the base facts
about subversion, then it will be a no-pain few days of actually using
any client and be productive.

This above may seem too harsh, but my belief is that all users should be
certified before ever touching a networked PC (and nowadays all are
networked :^) It is no less dangerous than driving a car without a
license if you think about it.

Kalin.

-- 
|[ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]|
+-> http://ThinRope.net/ <-+
|[ ______________________ ]|


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