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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za> on 2009/01/30 07:10:06 UTC
RE: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>>> On 2009/01/30 at 01:51, in message <21...@talk.nabble.com>,
Klortho <Vo...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
Robby Pelssers-2 wrote:
...
Well, I know I'm going to have to be patient, but so far my impression is
that version 2.2 was a giant step backwards.
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Andreas
No; I did not say that I thought 2.1 *was* unsupported, just that
I hoped it would not be. Believe me, I do really appreciate the
generous effort and commitment from the experts that helps out
those of who do not "get" all the nuances as quickly.
I also did not take any offence - the Cocoon mailing list is actually
one of the most amazingly friendly and non-critical lists I know; we
all have our little rants from time-to-time, but everyone takes it
calmly and no one overreacts.
Finally< its good to see that projects are/have been making use
of 2.2; that will help shake out the bugs and hopefully build towards
some solid docs for it. I am especially looking forward to more of
the "migrating from 2.1" stories and documents (which is where I
suspect many are or might be going); as well as other entry-level
cases round Maven and the like.
For me, I am very happy that Cocoon has such a solid development
team who have a clear direction for it.
Derek
>>> On 2009/02/03 at 05:11, in message <gm...@ger.gmane.org>,
Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
Hi Derek,
> I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
> on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
> might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
> to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
>
> However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
> while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
> FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
> there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
> or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
>
> There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
> years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
> because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
do you have the feeling that the 2.1 branch is not sufficiently
supported anymore? If I understand Betrand correctly, it is officially
in maintenance mode and it is not planned to cease support. We (the
Lenya community) are certainly going to need it for another couple of
years, so we'll be bound to maintain it.
> Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
> mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting
started"
> questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
> provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
> types of sailors.
+1
> So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
> does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
> significant upheaval.
Sorry if my mail caused any offence or could be taken personally, that
was not my intention. I only wanted to express the viewpoint of another
type of Cocoon user * the projects which depend on it.
Thanks for your reply!
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Hi Derek,
Derek Hohls schrieb:
[…]
> I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
> on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
> might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
> to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
>
> However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
> while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
> FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
> there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
> or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
>
> There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
> years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
> because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
do you have the feeling that the 2.1 branch is not sufficiently
supported anymore? If I understand Betrand correctly, it is officially
in maintenance mode and it is not planned to cease support. We (the
Lenya community) are certainly going to need it for another couple of
years, so we'll be bound to maintain it.
> Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
> mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting started"
> questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
> provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
> types of sailors.
+1
> So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
> does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
> significant upheaval.
Sorry if my mail caused any offence or could be taken personally, that
was not my intention. I only wanted to express the viewpoint of another
type of Cocoon user – the projects which depend on it.
Thanks for your reply!
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
Andreas
Do you want the short reply or the long reply :)
Short:
There needs to be room in the Cocoon universe for 2.1 users as
well as 2.2 users.
Long:
This is the classic issue isn't it!? Certainly we are beset by the
"culture of the new" at present; where "new == better" - be it
cellphones, politicians, or computer languages.
I agree from a *marketing* perspective that putting buzzwords
on your site is a way to attract new users - especially those who
might otherwise be going to .NET or Ruby-on-Rails - not that I mean
to imply the developers are doing this for that reason alone.
However, there is also such a thing as a "legacy" application;
while you (or others) might think that languages such as COBOL,
FORTRAN, Pascal etc are "dead", I can almost guarantee you
there are millions of lines of code in those tools being written
or maintained every year (C# notwithstanding).
There are many of us who have been using Cocoon for many
years now, and I would really hate to think we'll just be dumped
because some new ideas or support frameworks have emerged.
Personally, I'd also like to see the documentation develop and
mature a little more - there are certainly *lots* of "getting started"
questions in the ML about 2.2 - and a book or half would also
provide some reassurance that a solid new ship is ready for all
types of sailors.
So yes, I am prepared to learn - no doubt I will have to - but it
does not yet feel the right time for what appears to require a
significant upheaval.
My 2(non-Euro)c
Derek
>>> On 2009/02/03 at 03:44, in message <gm...@ger.gmane.org>,
Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org> wrote:
Klortho schrieb:
>
>
> dhohls wrote:
>> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
>> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
>> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
>> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>>
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a
much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for
an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
BTW, there's also a different viewpoint:
<Lenya community hat>
For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
"Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
learning * familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand
than
new ones.
</Lenya community hat>
Just my $0.02.
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by DAVIGNON Andre - CETE NP/DIODé/PANDOC <An...@developpement-durable.gouv.fr>.
Hi,
> For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
> doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
> and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
> community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
> nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
> "Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
> moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
> learning – familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand than
> new ones.
As Derek pointed out, it's not a matter of learning - we all have to,
not only about Cocoon, don't we ;-) ? - and for sure "Based on Maven and
Spring" sounds more attractive. But at the moment "attractive" or
"sounds better" is not my major concern.
In the _real_ world, there are lots of 2.1 running apps that must work
and keep being supported. And it's a good news that 2.1 is still in
maintenance mode as Bertrand recently wrote :-).
Cheers,
André
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Klortho schrieb:
>
>
> dhohls wrote:
>> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
>> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
>> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
>> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>>
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
BTW, there's also a different viewpoint:
<Lenya community hat>
For us, as a project depending on Cocoon, it is crucial that Cocoon
doesn't cling to "dead" (as in language) concepts and frameworks as XSP
and Avalon, however proven and stable they may be. To attract new
community members, it's very important to keep looking beyond one's own
nose and stay in touch with current trends in the Java world. Putting
"Based on Maven and Spring" on your homepage sounds much better at the
moment than "Based on Ant and Avalon". And we shouldn't be afraid of
learning – familiar concepts often seem to be easier to understand than
new ones.
</Lenya community hat>
Just my $0.02.
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: COCOON-1887 (was: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the
exception information?)
Posted by Andy Stevens <in...@googlemail.com>.
2009/2/23 Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>:
> Hey Andy,
>
> this particular patch has been applied.
>
> Thanks,
> Joerg
That's great; thanks.
Andy.
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Re: COCOON-1887
Posted by Grzegorz Kossakowski <gr...@tuffmail.com>.
Joerg Heinicke pisze:
> On 30.01.2009 18:04, Andy Stevens wrote:
>
>> I uploaded
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COCOON-1887 2 1/2 years ago and
>> it's still waiting, even though it's a relatively trivial change and
>> only about half a dozen lines of code if you ignore the comments and
>> unit test :-(
>
> Hey Andy,
>
> this particular patch has been applied.
Thanks Joerg!
Are you attending ApacheCon EU this year?
--
Best regards,
Grzegorz Kossakowski
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Re: COCOON-1887 (was: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?)
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 30.01.2009 18:04, Andy Stevens wrote:
> I uploaded
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COCOON-1887 2 1/2 years ago and
> it's still waiting, even though it's a relatively trivial change and
> only about half a dozen lines of code if you ignore the comments and
> unit test :-(
Hey Andy,
this particular patch has been applied.
Thanks,
Joerg
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 30.01.2009 18:04, Andy Stevens wrote:
>> Nobody said 2.1 is dead, it is clearly (IMHO) in maintenance mode.
>
> Sounds good in theory, but the big assumption is that submitted
> patches might actually be applied. I uploaded
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COCOON-1887 2 1/2 years ago and
> it's still waiting, even though it's a relatively trivial change and
> only about half a dozen lines of code if you ignore the comments and
> unit test :-( Less, if you exclude the bit to preserve backward
> compatibility.
> And it's by no means the oldest patch in the summary list that's sent
> to the list every few weeks...
That's not a problem with 2.1 but with Cocoon in general at the moment.
There is not going on too much and the patch list is usually just
growing. Asking for getting a patch applied usually helps though :-)
Joerg
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Andy Stevens <in...@googlemail.com>.
2009/1/30 Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>:
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 4:41 PM, "DAVIGNON Andre - CETE
> NP/DIODé/PANDOC" <An...@developpement-durable.gouv.fr> wrote:
> 2.1 can stay supported as long as people support it ;-)
>
> Former colleagues of mine are still maintaining 2.1 apps that I
> created a few years ago, without any problems, and I'm sure many
> people are doing the same. If we had a need to fix something in it,
> we'd do it - and I encourage all 2.1 users to do the same, committers
> can fix things directly and contributors can submit patches. Nobody
> said 2.1 is dead, it is clearly (IMHO) in maintenance mode.
Sounds good in theory, but the big assumption is that submitted
patches might actually be applied. I uploaded
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COCOON-1887 2 1/2 years ago and
it's still waiting, even though it's a relatively trivial change and
only about half a dozen lines of code if you ignore the comments and
unit test :-( Less, if you exclude the bit to preserve backward
compatibility.
And it's by no means the oldest patch in the summary list that's sent
to the list every few weeks...
Andy
--
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 4:41 PM, "DAVIGNON Andre - CETE
NP/DIODé/PANDOC" <An...@developpement-durable.gouv.fr> wrote:
> ...I have a lot of Cocoon apps with many XSP and Cocoon 2.2 does
> not support XSP. I don't know what to do with this apps in the future when
> 2.1 is no longer supported....
2.1 can stay supported as long as people support it ;-)
Former colleagues of mine are still maintaining 2.1 apps that I
created a few years ago, without any problems, and I'm sure many
people are doing the same. If we had a need to fix something in it,
we'd do it - and I encourage all 2.1 users to do the same, committers
can fix things directly and contributors can submit patches. Nobody
said 2.1 is dead, it is clearly (IMHO) in maintenance mode.
Unlike commercial software, there's no requirement for anyone to move
to 2.2, 3.0 or anything if you're happy with 2.1 - or prepared to
contribute to fixing it where needed. Even if the Apache Cocoon
project decided to freeze the 2.1 branch (which I would strongly
oppose), the Apache License allows 2.1 users to grab the code and
start maintaining it elsewhere.
As the focus has shifted to 2.2 and 3.x, what you should not expect is
people adding new features to 2.1...but what new features would you
need anyway? I think 2.1 is stable both in terms of working reliably
and it terms of providing a well defined set of useful features.
-Bertrand
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by DAVIGNON Andre - CETE NP/DIODé/PANDOC <An...@developpement-durable.gouv.fr>.
Hi all,
I sometimes feel there is unfortunately no constructive debate about
this topic (2.1 vs 2.2). And as you say, Bart, blaming people who remain
unsatisfied with 2.2 seems to be the answer though it's a bit easy.
For example, I have a lot of Cocoon apps with many XSP and Cocoon 2.2
does not support XSP. I don't know what to do with this apps in the
future when 2.1 is no longer supported.
Here
(http://www.nabble.com/How-can-i-activate-XSP-in-cocoon-2.2---to19452293.html#a19457928)
was an answer : "Yes... XSP is evil" and "Yes, flowscript + template
block". Constructive debate. What about performance (javascript
interpreter written in java vs XSP compilation) ?
If I have to work with a new environment for what reasons would I choose
Cocoon 2.2 as there are now many developping frameworks when I no longer
find in Cocoon the reasons that made me work with it ?
Regards,
André
Le 30/01/2009 16:18, > Bart Remmerie (par Internet, dépôt
users-return-97136-andre.davignon=developpement-durable.gouv.fr@cocoon.apache.org)
a écrit :
> It's not only about taking the road less traveled ... certainly not if
> you get the impression that it seems to be going the wrong way.
> I am convinced that a lot of cocoon users were convinced that cocoon was
> powerful & useful ... until 2.2
> We all know Cocoon has a rather steep learning curve, but the move to
> 2.2 just made it even more difficult.
> Maybe acceptance is not an issue, but when cocoon loses it user base,
> cocoon also loses the rich potential of talented developers to improve it.
>
> Just to get things clear (and to find out if I should stick with
> cocoon): who / what is cocoon made for (basically, who is the client) &
> what is this "client" expecting / hoping for ?
>
> What I've seen in the recent past is that this discussion comes up every
> now and then, meaning that users remain unsatisfied. I feel that it
> would be to easy to blame them (although this is convenient, since you'd
> never have to question anything).
>
> All I can hope is to get some constructive debate out of this.
>
> What I expect as a cocoon user when new releases occur:
> new features, easier to use, better documentation ( and examples),
> stronger foundations, ...
> I can accept that it takes some effort, extra learning and code
> conversion ... (but I hope to get some of the above in return)
>
> I would like to invite other users to express what they expect from new
> versions, unless the end users are not the target audience for cocoon,
> and in this case ... should all move to mainstream php/ruby ?
>
> Regards,
> Bart
>
>
>
> 2009/1/30 Derek Hohls <DHohls@csir.co.za <ma...@csir.co.za>>
>
> You may be correct; but I have never felt that Cocoon was
> "striving" for acceptance. It simply is what it is; and you either
> find it incredibly powerful and useful ... or become a mainstream
> php/ruby developer. If you are here, its because you have taken
> the road (development route?!) less traveled!
>
> >>> On 2009/01/30 at 08:24, in message
> <21742093.post@talk.nabble.com <ma...@talk.nabble.com>>,
> Klortho <Voldrani@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> dhohls wrote:
> >
> > That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
> > perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
> > done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
> > mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
> >
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was
> a much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and
> conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document
> Format (ODF) standard.
> The full disclaimer details can be found at
> http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
>
> This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
> MailScanner,
> and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers
> for their support.
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@cocoon.apache.org
> <ma...@cocoon.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@cocoon.apache.org
> <ma...@cocoon.apache.org>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Bart Remmerie
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Klortho <Vo...@gmail.com>.
I for one think that when releasing a new version, a lot of deference should
be given to the newbie. Don't make it harder to get started using.
Dropping old deprecated features might be fine, but 2.1, in addition to the
nice exception pages, had a very nice welcome page with lots of links to
examples, and I still think dropping that was a mistake.
bart remmerie wrote:
>
> ....
> We all know Cocoon has a rather steep learning curve, but the move to 2.2
> just made it even more difficult.
> ....
> What I expect as a cocoon user when new releases occur:
> new features, easier to use, better documentation ( and examples),
> stronger
> foundations, ...
> I can accept that it takes some effort, extra learning and code conversion
> ... (but I hope to get some of the above in return)
>
> I would like to invite other users to express what they expect from new
> versions, unless the end users are not the target audience for cocoon, and
> in this case ... should all move to mainstream php/ruby ?
>
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Re: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Bart Remmerie <re...@gmail.com>.
It's not only about taking the road less traveled ... certainly not if you
get the impression that it seems to be going the wrong way.
I am convinced that a lot of cocoon users were convinced that cocoon was
powerful & useful ... until 2.2
We all know Cocoon has a rather steep learning curve, but the move to 2.2
just made it even more difficult.
Maybe acceptance is not an issue, but when cocoon loses it user base, cocoon
also loses the rich potential of talented developers to improve it.
Just to get things clear (and to find out if I should stick with cocoon):
who / what is cocoon made for (basically, who is the client) & what is this
"client" expecting / hoping for ?
What I've seen in the recent past is that this discussion comes up every now
and then, meaning that users remain unsatisfied. I feel that it would be to
easy to blame them (although this is convenient, since you'd never have to
question anything).
All I can hope is to get some constructive debate out of this.
What I expect as a cocoon user when new releases occur:
new features, easier to use, better documentation ( and examples), stronger
foundations, ...
I can accept that it takes some effort, extra learning and code conversion
... (but I hope to get some of the above in return)
I would like to invite other users to express what they expect from new
versions, unless the end users are not the target audience for cocoon, and
in this case ... should all move to mainstream php/ruby ?
Regards,
Bart
2009/1/30 Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>
> You may be correct; but I have never felt that Cocoon was
> "striving" for acceptance. It simply is what it is; and you either
> find it incredibly powerful and useful ... or become a mainstream
> php/ruby developer. If you are here, its because you have taken
> the road (development route?!) less traveled!
>
> >>> On 2009/01/30 at 08:24, in message <21...@talk.nabble.com>,
> Klortho <Vo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dhohls wrote:
> >
> > That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
> > perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
> > done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
> > mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
> >
> Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
> I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a much
> nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
> application to gain wider acceptance.
>
>
>
>
> --
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--
Bart Remmerie
RE: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception
information?
Posted by Derek Hohls <DH...@csir.co.za>.
You may be correct; but I have never felt that Cocoon was
"striving" for acceptance. It simply is what it is; and you either
find it incredibly powerful and useful ... or become a mainstream
php/ruby developer. If you are here, its because you have taken
the road (development route?!) less traveled!
>>> On 2009/01/30 at 08:24, in message <21...@talk.nabble.com>,
Klortho <Vo...@gmail.com> wrote:
dhohls wrote:
>
> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>
Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a much
nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
application to gain wider acceptance.
--
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The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner,
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RE: Getting started with C2.2 -- where's the exception information?
Posted by Klortho <Vo...@gmail.com>.
dhohls wrote:
>
> That's a little harsh - although my impression is that C2.2 is
> perhaps a step sideways in terms of how many things are
> done... but that's just an impression from reading all the
> mailing list Q&A. So far, I have not needed to take the plunge.
>
Yes, you're right ... too harsh.
I'm really just a newbie, but speaking as one, I think that 2.1 was a much
nicer experience out of the gate, which is pretty damn important for an
application to gain wider acceptance.
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Getting-started-with-C2.2----where%27s-the-exception-information--tp21736790p21742093.html
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