OT: Confession and rage

["Stewart, John" <jo...@artesyncp.com>]

So, I was taking a shower this morning and was thinking I might send out a
confessional email to this list... and then something else happened that has
changed my outlook.

The story is this... in my town, I've not been able for the longest time to
find a reliable person to cut my hair. The choices have always been
Supercuts/Costcutters where for very cheap you can have a blind person
suffering from seizures cut your hair, or you can pay out the nose for a
decent haircut at a snooty salon.

A year or so ago, I found a salon where not only could you make an
appointment online (through a very kludgy web interface, mind you), but the
cut was very cheap in comparison to a normal "salon" cut (not Costcutters
price, but also no worries about coming out looking like an escaped convict
who cut his own hair with a sharpened spoon).

Well, a couple of weeks ago, I got a spam from this salon about frickin'
pedicure specials or some garbage. There was no link to opt out, and so I
replied to the sender address saying please take me off, etc.

The very next day I get another spam from them. At this point, I was
*livid*, enraged, off my rocker pissed. I emailed them again and to every
possible alias I could think of (postmaster, webmaster, etc...) saying how
totally unacceptable it was, etc. I also called them, and made a couple of
fake appointments to get their attention.

I did get a voice mail back from the owner of the salon apologizing and
saying "we were trying out some stuff". It's all very obviously very
amateurish and low tech, by the way.

I even got into a big argument with my wife about this. She said she didn't
mind the spams, since Apple and every other vendor she deals with also sends
them out. I blew up over this; I think I may have even compared the salon to
the Nazis in the resulting conflagration.

In the past couple of weeks, though, my ire has faded and I have grown
increasingly in bad need of a haircut (and my sister's wedding is coming up,
so I really kind of need to get one). So I made an appointment yesterday
online, where suspiciously I had to create a new account. I also thought
this morning about confessing all of this to y'all.

I do feel it is immoral to do business with any company which sends spam,
and especially so ones where you can't get off.

Well, guess what was in my inbox this morning? Another one... apparently
their method of opting me out was to simply nuke my account; their spam
seems to go out to everyone they have an address for, every time.

Why I signed up with a valid email address, I'm not sure (tempting them?). I
did put down "Please Don't Spam Me; Thank you!" for my snail mail address,
though apparently no one sees these before the spam goes out.

So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them,
though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone,
and she might have just been responding to my call).

So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've
also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for
her (she is not in until noon).

Do I:

- Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?

- Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?

- Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?

- Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?

johnS

Re: OT: Confession and rage

["Martin G. Diehl" <md...@nac.net>]

Chris Lear wrote:

> * Stewart, John wrote (05/06/05 15:55):
> 
> [... excellent story chopped ...]
> 
>>Do I:
>>
>>- Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
>>
>>- Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
>>
>>- Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
>>appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
>>
>>- Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?
> 
> Or...
> 
> - Offer them some consultancy, in return for a haircut (is this the same
> as option 2?)

Simply telling them your consultancy billing rate ought to influence
them to stop the SPAM.

OTOH, after you disclose your billing rate, they may raise their rates.

> -- Chris

--
Martin

Re: OT: Confession and rage

[Chris Lear <ch...@laculine.com>]

* Stewart, John wrote (05/06/05 15:55):

[... excellent story chopped ...]

> Do I:
> 
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
> 
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
> 
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
> 
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?

Or...

- Offer them some consultancy, in return for a haircut (is this the same
as option 2?)

-- Chris

Re: OT: Confession and rage

[Piers Kittel <pi...@bda.org.uk>]

Just think communication is the best issue - talk to the owner of the 
saloon, and if it continues, blacklist them (report them or whatever) 
and never go back to them and tell your mates about them.  Word of mouth 
is scarily powerful.

Yes what they are doing is bad, but they probably are learners - 
probably using AOL or similar to set up the website, or paying a 
friend's son/daughter to do it - education (i.e. prevention) is better 
than getting angry and chewing them up, messing with their website (i.e. 
cure).  You never know, maybe they'll improve the website and stop the 
spam.  I agree with you totally, spamming without being able to opt out 
is evil and comparable to what you've said, but as I say, better do 
things calmly and euducate people.  Of course as I've learnt, there's no 
educating people though.

That's just my two cents anyway.

Cheers - Piers

Stewart, John wrote:
> So, I was taking a shower this morning and was thinking I might send out a
> confessional email to this list... and then something else happened that has
> changed my outlook.
> 
> The story is this... in my town, I've not been able for the longest time to
> find a reliable person to cut my hair. The choices have always been
> Supercuts/Costcutters where for very cheap you can have a blind person
> suffering from seizures cut your hair, or you can pay out the nose for a
> decent haircut at a snooty salon.
> 
> A year or so ago, I found a salon where not only could you make an
> appointment online (through a very kludgy web interface, mind you), but the
> cut was very cheap in comparison to a normal "salon" cut (not Costcutters
> price, but also no worries about coming out looking like an escaped convict
> who cut his own hair with a sharpened spoon).
> 
> Well, a couple of weeks ago, I got a spam from this salon about frickin'
> pedicure specials or some garbage. There was no link to opt out, and so I
> replied to the sender address saying please take me off, etc.
> 
> The very next day I get another spam from them. At this point, I was
> *livid*, enraged, off my rocker pissed. I emailed them again and to every
> possible alias I could think of (postmaster, webmaster, etc...) saying how
> totally unacceptable it was, etc. I also called them, and made a couple of
> fake appointments to get their attention.
> 
> I did get a voice mail back from the owner of the salon apologizing and
> saying "we were trying out some stuff". It's all very obviously very
> amateurish and low tech, by the way.
> 
> I even got into a big argument with my wife about this. She said she didn't
> mind the spams, since Apple and every other vendor she deals with also sends
> them out. I blew up over this; I think I may have even compared the salon to
> the Nazis in the resulting conflagration.
> 
> In the past couple of weeks, though, my ire has faded and I have grown
> increasingly in bad need of a haircut (and my sister's wedding is coming up,
> so I really kind of need to get one). So I made an appointment yesterday
> online, where suspiciously I had to create a new account. I also thought
> this morning about confessing all of this to y'all.
> 
> I do feel it is immoral to do business with any company which sends spam,
> and especially so ones where you can't get off.
> 
> Well, guess what was in my inbox this morning? Another one... apparently
> their method of opting me out was to simply nuke my account; their spam
> seems to go out to everyone they have an address for, every time.
> 
> Why I signed up with a valid email address, I'm not sure (tempting them?). I
> did put down "Please Don't Spam Me; Thank you!" for my snail mail address,
> though apparently no one sees these before the spam goes out.
> 
> So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them,
> though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone,
> and she might have just been responding to my call).
> 
> So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've
> also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for
> her (she is not in until noon).
> 
> Do I:
> 
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
> 
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
> 
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
> 
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?
> 
> johnS

Re: Confession and rage

[jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>]

From: "Stewart, John" <jo...@artesyncp.com>

> Do I:
> 
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
> 
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
> 
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
> 
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?

John, you left off the simplest lowest pressure solutions. I use two
such. But that comes from using fetchmail & procmail to get my mail into
the system here. It is easy for the really annoying cases to add them
to procmail with a /dev/null disposition. I NEVER see them again. I am
stinky enough I have five or six people and sites in that list. For
lesser offenses I simply setup a user_prefs rule and tag them. There is
a visceral pleasure knocking the scores for some such into the 200+
range. I see these massive scores in my spam box and simply chuckle.
"I gotcha! Yaahaahaa!"

{^_-}   Joanne

Re: Confession and rage

[James R <ja...@trusswood.dyndns.org>]

Mike Jackson wrote:
> [snipped - um, pun intended]
> 
> Okay, I'm going to take the devil's advocate approach here. By signing 
> up with them, you created a business relationship. While their emails 
> may be unwanted, they're not unsolicited. Your righteous indignation is 
> unfounded - as much as I hate spam, this is not spam, or at least it's 
> only spam in the most liberal definition thereof.
> 
> Find a creative and positive solution. Educate, be polite, offer to set 
> up a less amateurish mail system that would provide a way for customers 
> to opt out of the emailings, ask your wife to learn to cut your hair. 
> But for the love of Elvis don't act like a adolescent who's been dissed 
> on the playground. It won't make you feel better, it won't help any 
> other customers who don't want the emails, it won't help the business do 
> things properly.
> 
> 
If the OP has already asked (politely) to be removed, then they are 
indeed spamming. The first mail, I would say is warranted, the mails 
after the opt-out are not. If they are in the US, remind them of the 
CAN-SPAM act, and they are in violation of it. A little scare from big 
gov on a small biz can usually get action. Tho, if this isn't the us, 
you may be in trouble.

On their site, did they have a publicly accessible policy on how they 
use your information?

My $.02
-- 
Thanks,
James

Re: Confession and rage

[jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>]

From: "Mike Jackson" <mj...@barking-dog.net>

> Find a creative and positive solution. Educate, be polite, offer to set up
a
> less amateurish mail system that would provide a way for customers to opt
> out of the emailings, ask your wife to learn to cut your hair. But for the
> love of Elvis don't act like a adolescent who's been dissed on the
          ^^^^^ Who dat? Was he the fourth violinist in the Boston Pops?
> playground. It won't make you feel better, it won't help any other
customers
> who don't want the emails, it won't help the business do things properly.

Of course, given the nature if the Internet these days he MIGHT be a
youngster who's been dissed on his playground. (But he's hinted that
he is old enough to be married. So his reactions are rather inappropriate.)

{^_-}

Re: Confession and rage

[Mike Jackson <mj...@barking-dog.net>]

[snipped - um, pun intended]

Okay, I'm going to take the devil's advocate approach here. By signing up 
with them, you created a business relationship. While their emails may be 
unwanted, they're not unsolicited. Your righteous indignation is unfounded - 
as much as I hate spam, this is not spam, or at least it's only spam in the 
most liberal definition thereof.

Find a creative and positive solution. Educate, be polite, offer to set up a 
less amateurish mail system that would provide a way for customers to opt 
out of the emailings, ask your wife to learn to cut your hair. But for the 
love of Elvis don't act like a adolescent who's been dissed on the 
playground. It won't make you feel better, it won't help any other customers 
who don't want the emails, it won't help the business do things properly. 

Re: Confession and rage

[Loren Wilton <lw...@earthlink.net>]

> Do I:
>

YOu have pointed out a key several times, but seemingly missed it.

These people are amatuers and newbies to the web.  Quite possibly they are
doing this whole thing themselves from a "web foe dummies" book.  Almost
certainly they got the idea of a web site from some customer suggesting that
they should have one; they probably never actually USED the web themselves.

Amazing as it may seem to most of us, there are still A LOT of people that
don't use the web, and don't even use email.  I know a dozen or so
personally.  These people will have at best a second-hand knowlwdge of the
concept of spam, and not have the slightest idea how annoying it is.

The solution here is not ire, it is education.  Go to the place, get your
hair cut, observe that they did a good job for a reasonable price, and
perhaps suggest (AFTER the haircut, so YOU don't get upset while having your
hair cut) that you might be able to help them understand the web better.
Maybe they will take you up on that, maybe not.

If they have some time before the next customer you can certainly explain
about how to get people off mailing lists, and why you should, and such
like.  Just remember, and keep telling yourself, that these people aren't
completely deliberately obtuse - they simply have no clue what you are
talking about, so you will have to walk them through the process slowly, a
step at a time, and NOT EXPECT them to get it on the first attempt.

Now, besides all that, you DO have "an established business relationship"
with them, so they were within their rights sending you stuff the first
time.  Of course it should have had an opt-out link which would have worked.
But they are newbies, and honestly DIDN'T KNOW that.  Thsy probably don't
understand "opt out", nor why it is so important.  Again, education, not
ire, is the solution.

As for the screwup after talking with them and their promising to "do
something" about it: They *did* "do something" about it.  It just wan't the
right thing.  This was probably from ignorance rather than malfeasance on
their part.  Here you can help them by explaining how all this should be
done.  You could even suggest that you would be happy to HELP THEM get their
stuff working right.  This might cost you 3-4 hours work at some point.  But
you are helping *yourself*, by making sure you won't get spam from them
again.  And you are fighting spam for others, since others that want to out
put will have an effective solution.

Make sense?

        Loren

Re: OT: Confession and rage

[Rick Macdougall <ri...@nougen.com>]

Stewart, John wrote:
> So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads them,
> though, as the only response I have received over this was over the phone,
> and she might have just been responding to my call).
> 
> So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've
> also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for
> her (she is not in until noon).
> 
> Do I:
> 
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
> 
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
> 
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
> 
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?

Hi,

Personally, I try to educate the poor lusers who use spam without really 
knowing the consequences,  Better to have them understand why it is a 
bad thing than to have them keep doing it.

Regards,

Rick

Re: OT: Confession and rage

[Andy Hester <ah...@galacticltd.com>]

> Do I:
>
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
>
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
>
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
>
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?
>
> johnS

Do they not have a barber shop where you live?  They are usually cheaper and 
more knowledgeable in cutting men's hair in my experience.  I definitely 
would not go to the salon where you have made fake appointments for a 
haircut. 

I agree w/Chris about educating them/letting them know they are about to be 
reported to RBLs.

Great story/rant!
-- 
Andy Hester
Network Engineer
Galactic LTD

Re: OT: Confession and rage

[Dimitri Yioulos <dy...@firstbhph.com>]

On Friday May 6 2005 10:55 am, Stewart, John wrote:
> So, I was taking a shower this morning and was thinking I might send out a
> confessional email to this list... and then something else happened that
> has changed my outlook.
>
> The story is this... in my town, I've not been able for the longest time to
> find a reliable person to cut my hair. The choices have always been
> Supercuts/Costcutters where for very cheap you can have a blind person
> suffering from seizures cut your hair, or you can pay out the nose for a
> decent haircut at a snooty salon.
>
> A year or so ago, I found a salon where not only could you make an
> appointment online (through a very kludgy web interface, mind you), but the
> cut was very cheap in comparison to a normal "salon" cut (not Costcutters
> price, but also no worries about coming out looking like an escaped convict
> who cut his own hair with a sharpened spoon).
>
> Well, a couple of weeks ago, I got a spam from this salon about frickin'
> pedicure specials or some garbage. There was no link to opt out, and so I
> replied to the sender address saying please take me off, etc.
>
> The very next day I get another spam from them. At this point, I was
> *livid*, enraged, off my rocker pissed. I emailed them again and to every
> possible alias I could think of (postmaster, webmaster, etc...) saying how
> totally unacceptable it was, etc. I also called them, and made a couple of
> fake appointments to get their attention.
>
> I did get a voice mail back from the owner of the salon apologizing and
> saying "we were trying out some stuff". It's all very obviously very
> amateurish and low tech, by the way.
>
> I even got into a big argument with my wife about this. She said she didn't
> mind the spams, since Apple and every other vendor she deals with also
> sends them out. I blew up over this; I think I may have even compared the
> salon to the Nazis in the resulting conflagration.
>
> In the past couple of weeks, though, my ire has faded and I have grown
> increasingly in bad need of a haircut (and my sister's wedding is coming
> up, so I really kind of need to get one). So I made an appointment
> yesterday online, where suspiciously I had to create a new account. I also
> thought this morning about confessing all of this to y'all.
>
> I do feel it is immoral to do business with any company which sends spam,
> and especially so ones where you can't get off.
>
> Well, guess what was in my inbox this morning? Another one... apparently
> their method of opting me out was to simply nuke my account; their spam
> seems to go out to everyone they have an address for, every time.
>
> Why I signed up with a valid email address, I'm not sure (tempting them?).
> I did put down "Please Don't Spam Me; Thank you!" for my snail mail
> address, though apparently no one sees these before the spam goes out.
>
> So I've replied again to this spam (I'm not sure anyone actually reads
> them, though, as the only response I have received over this was over the
> phone, and she might have just been responding to my call).
>
> So I have a 1pm haircut appointment today with the owner of the salon. I've
> also emailed her (don't know if it will be read) and left a voice mail for
> her (she is not in until noon).
>
> Do I:
>
> - Never go there again, as I said would be the case in my previous email?
>
> - Show up and try to convince her what a horrible thing she is doing?
>
> - Just screw with their (horribly insecure) online site, signing up for
> appointments all day for Elmer Fudd, etc?
>
> - Simply ban their domain from my mailserver and report them to the RBLs?
>
> johnS

John,

Not to add insult to your injury, but you said this is a "budget" salon.  
Well, it's just another example of "you get what you pay for" :-)

Dimitri