More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

["Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>]

Hello, all, with so much volume on the list, I thought it would be
helpful to touch on a number of topics in one email.


Regards,

KAM

*> if you are running 3.X not trunk*

The rule renaming and scoring and description issues shoule be resolved
as soon as the automated system publishes the rules.  You'll see
USER_IN_WHITELIST_TO with a description that it's deprecated and to see
USER_IN_WELCOMELIST_TO.  However, your scoring and any meta rules built
on it will continue to work. We'll extrapolate this to other rules for
BLACKLIST and WHITELIST.

As we approach 4.0's release, we'll look at feedback for that version.

*> should i use sed or search and replace things?*

I would recommend against that right now.  We have only changed ONE rule
so far on purpose.  With 4.0's upgrade file, we will include guidance on
search and replaces as well as SQL queries for user preferences.

*> Re: Turning off and on backwards compatibility *
This idea isn't really needed.  The issue we are working through is the
changes needed to support both current releases like 3.4.4 (soon to be
3.4.5), upcoming releases like 4.0.0 AND some people still using things
as old as 3.3.X.

We are working through with one function (whitelist_to) how best to do that.

The issue is not that we can't do it.  We know how to code but rather
how to do new releases AND rulesets that are over a decade old.  Even
3.4.2 has issues with sa-update that have been fixed since.  People have
asked us to try and keep 3.4.2 working hence the recent work on rules.

*> Backwards compatibility is confusing for those not familiar with the
product.*

We have code such as the upcoming 4.0.0 SA release.  We also have rules
which are a different release.  We are working on backwards
compatibility for rules for existing releases as well as code changes
with 4.0.


*> what about whitelist_from_spf      *@belastingdienst.nl*

That isn't a rule, that's a configuration option.  Configuration options
for the new welcomelist_from_spf will include the alias to the previous
entry and will work at least until 4.1.0 is released.


*> Why is XYZ rule not fixed quicker?*

Rule changes take a long time, sometimes days, to go through a QA system
to publish them.  We are looking at feedback from users of all different
versions and distros to try and select the best way forward.  This is
why we have changed only one rule USER_IN_WELCOMELIST_TO and we are
working through that as a model for the rest of the changes.

*> Why not fix the rule renaming as part of ruleqa/masscheck?*

Rule QA / Masscheck is complicated.  The less it's touched, the better.

*> Why is this breaking of rules not really a big deal?*

Unless there are other changes queued, not getting a rule update is ok. 
Your existing rules will remain and the issue is benign but annoying.

*> Why make the change?*

I believe it's the right thing to do and you are going to see more of
the ecosystem changing to.  I will not preempt the news but you are
going to see this change pretty broadly.

*> If you are Running 3.4.4*

sa-update should work and not error out.  You should not receive any
warnings.  There should be a meta rule for the new name in the next ruleset.

please let us know if you get any warnings from sa-update and
spamassassin --lint?



*> If you are running 3.4.2*

sa-update should work and not error out.  You might get warnings.  There
should be a meta rule for the new name in the next ruleset.

please let us know if you get any warnings from a ruleset AFTER 1880040
from sa-update and spamassassin --lint.


*> What about rules like URIBL_BLACK?*

That is a 3rd party rule.  We will discuss with the URIBL team about
their plans but if renamed, we would mimic the meta rules with a
duplicated DEPRECATED rule such as we are doing for
USER_IN_WELCOMELIST_TO right now.

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Ted Mittelstaedt <te...@ipinc.net>]

On 7/23/2020 10:12 AM, Ralph Seichter wrote:

> explained repeatedly. Some people thinking the connection to racism
> exists do not turn this alleged connection into a fact.
>

But don't you understand Ralph that those people are the Very Most 
Importantist People In The Entire World so what they think Absolutely
Must Be The Truth No Matter How Rediculous.

> There is also no "right not to be offended" in this world. Hence, I need
> to use email killfiles to weed out those people I just cannot stand.
>

It offends me that you do not agree with my belief that the world is 
flat.  It is even more offensive that the world refuses to go flat
because I say so!

Ted

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Ralph Seichter <ra...@ml.seichter.de>]

* Alex Woick:

> The racism behind descriptive things like blacklist and whitelist is
> so subtle, so old, so established, nobody realizes they are racist
> except the people it is against.

There is no globally applicaple notion of racism in these terms, as I
explained repeatedly. Some people thinking the connection to racism
exists do not turn this alleged connection into a fact.

There is also no "right not to be offended" in this world. Hence, I need
to use email killfiles to weed out those people I just cannot stand.

-Ralph

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Alex Woick <al...@wombaz.de>]

Difficult to find an appropriate thread.

I fully support the naming changes, in current configurations and new 
projects. Be it with SpamAssassin, be it with everything else.
The changes are necessary. They are overdue for years.

I woke up last year from being an "old white man". I was an old white 
man, not powerful in big politics but somewhat in my small world at home 
and work. For 50 years I didn't know what racism and discrimination is 
about, because I was never discriminated. Never. I am male, I am white, 
I live in europe, I got good education, I am healty. I wondered why it 
was so easy to get well paid jobs while others were struggling and were 
poor, and I looked down on them. I did so well, because I am male, I am 
white, I live in europe, got a good education. When I asked something, I 
was served before not white people, before women, before not so 
well-doing people. This is the unspoken discrimination that's all around 
us. I didn't do anything to be preferred, but I was preferred. This is 
what most people don't realize. It's everywhere, you don't need to want 
to discriminate. It's already there.

The racism behind descriptive things like blacklist and whitelist is so 
subtle, so old, so established, nobody realizes they are racist except 
the people it is against. And these people ceased to protest, because 
their protest is ridiculed and suppressed. This will perpetuate 
endlessly with new projects, new configurations, new things - until we 
say: "Stop. We change it all. Now. Not tomorrow with new stuff but now 
and with everything."

As long as someone is able to find a racist keyword against him in some 
config, he is hurt. We must stop hurting him. Not only with future 
stuff, but also with current stuff. It's not the task of the suppressed 
to change anything, it's our task to change it, because we invented it. 
We, the privileged.

It breaks existing configurations and systems, but this is a negligible 
thing in comparison to the wound that is tended.

Alex

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Eric Broch <eb...@whitehorsetc.com>]

That's better than deluded.

On 7/20/2020 8:24 PM, Charles Sprickman wrote:
>
>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:03 PM, Eric Broch <eb...@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 7/20/2020 5:49 PM, jdow wrote:
>>> On 20200720 11:53:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>>> *> Why make the change?*
>>>>
>>>> I believe it's the right thing to do and you are going to see more of the ecosystem changing to.  I will not preempt the news but you are going to see this change pretty broadly.
>>> So this is basically your doing. What I think of you and your arrogance and racism displayed in your wording above and the nature of the change is not suitable for this list. The schools that produced you are training natural born losers.
>>>
>>> {^_^}
>> The Old Dominion is a slave state once again.
> y’all are so dang oppressed, how do you drag yourselves out of bed in the morning?

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Charles Sprickman <sp...@bway.net>]

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 9:03 PM, Eric Broch <eb...@whitehorsetc.com> wrote:
> 
> On 7/20/2020 5:49 PM, jdow wrote:
>> On 20200720 11:53:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>>> *> Why make the change?*
>>> 
>>> I believe it's the right thing to do and you are going to see more of the ecosystem changing to.  I will not preempt the news but you are going to see this change pretty broadly.
>> 
>> So this is basically your doing. What I think of you and your arrogance and racism displayed in your wording above and the nature of the change is not suitable for this list. The schools that produced you are training natural born losers.
>> 
>> {^_^}
> 
> The Old Dominion is a slave state once again.

y’all are so dang oppressed, how do you drag yourselves out of bed in the morning?

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[Eric Broch <eb...@whitehorsetc.com>]

On 7/20/2020 5:49 PM, jdow wrote:
> On 20200720 11:53:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
>> *> Why make the change?*
>>
>> I believe it's the right thing to do and you are going to see more of 
>> the ecosystem changing to.  I will not preempt the news but you are 
>> going to see this change pretty broadly.
>
> So this is basically your doing. What I think of you and your 
> arrogance and racism displayed in your wording above and the nature of 
> the change is not suitable for this list. The schools that produced 
> you are training natural born losers.
>
> {^_^}

The Old Dominion is a slave state once again.

Re: More Responses about Various Questions revolving around WelcomeLIst/BlockList changes

[jdow <jd...@earthlink.net>]

On 20200720 11:53:37, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> *> Why make the change?*
> 
> I believe it's the right thing to do and you are going to see more of the 
> ecosystem changing to.  I will not preempt the news but you are going to see 
> this change pretty broadly.

So this is basically your doing. What I think of you and your arrogance and 
racism displayed in your wording above and the nature of the change is not 
suitable for this list. The schools that produced you are training natural born 
losers.

{^_^}