You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Hagar Delest <de...@gmail.com> on 2019/11/20 18:28:59 UTC
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I think there
> is a certain difference between the activity of people who only work
> in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
> who work in the project out of their own interest.
I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
project, at least he produces something. Why would it be considered less
than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What if the guy
is paid AND he likes what he does?
If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should be afraid
about that, or should we?
Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing
hypothetical wrong use of the instances.
Hagar (EN Forum moderator)
Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 24.11.2019 13:19, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
>> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 11:28 AM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>>
>>
>> On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>>>> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are
>>>> out-of-favour.
>>>> This is the only way to keep the community together.
>>> No, that is only a way of unification.
>> But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken
>> sufficiently
>> into account.
>>
>> If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is
>> diminished.
> That's not gonna happen. That's happened.
>
> Lots and lots of former volunteers left the OpenOffice project and either went to LO or turned away from free software.
> Doesn't it show the weakness of our project that we couldn't even stand up to a newcomer like LO? (Nothing general against LO, only it is not our project. Our task is to ensure the success of AOO.)
>
> The example of the ProOO-Box shows how wrong the procedure is in some cases.
> With OOo, the ProOO box was part of the project, with AOO it was suddenly no longer part of the project, but was declared a "third party" without any substantial reason.
> At the persistent request of the volunteers, it was explained that the ProOO box could apply as a separate incubator project.
> Does nobody understand how absurd this proposal was? Does no one understand how it offended volunteers?
I don't know anything about this story, but in general terms: as far as
I'm aware, a software grant (or other kind of IP contribution) can go
directly to an existing PMC without having to pass through the
Incubator. If anyone said otherwise, they were simply wrong.
-- Brane
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Kovacs [mailto:Petko@Apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 11:28 AM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>
>
> On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> >> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are
> >> out-of-favour.
> >> This is the only way to keep the community together.
> > No, that is only a way of unification.
>
> But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken
> sufficiently
> into account.
>
> If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is
> diminished.
That's not gonna happen. That's happened.
Lots and lots of former volunteers left the OpenOffice project and either went to LO or turned away from free software.
Doesn't it show the weakness of our project that we couldn't even stand up to a newcomer like LO? (Nothing general against LO, only it is not our project. Our task is to ensure the success of AOO.)
The example of the ProOO-Box shows how wrong the procedure is in some cases.
With OOo, the ProOO box was part of the project, with AOO it was suddenly no longer part of the project, but was declared a "third party" without any substantial reason.
At the persistent request of the volunteers, it was explained that the ProOO box could apply as a separate incubator project.
Does nobody understand how absurd this proposal was? Does no one understand how it offended volunteers?
Of course my answer to Michael is not about the dissent being better, but just about the fact that we have to be willing to learn from our own mistakes and to implement improvements.
greetings,
Jörg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Peter Kovacs <Pe...@Apache.org>.
On 24.11.19 09:30, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are
>> out-of-favour.
>> This is the only way to keep the community together.
> No, that is only a way of unification.
But if there is no unification, voices have not been taken sufficiently
into account.
If this happens to often, people will go away, and the community is
diminished.
A concent is that you accept the proposed resolution, even if you do not
agree with the others opinion on the vote.
A resolution is always an action, or a by-rule or a goal to achieve.
I do not see how your argument is not supporting Michaels argument.
So imho you argument needs to be: Yes, that is a way of unification.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> From: Dr. Michael Stehmann [mailto:anwalt@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:40 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>
> Hello,
>
> Am 21.11.19 um 14:42 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
>
> > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different
> opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have
> different opinions in the future than at the time when they
> became a PMC member?
> >
>
> Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are
> out-of-favour.
> This is the only way to keep the community together.
No, that is only a way of unification.
Jörg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by "Dr. Michael Stehmann" <an...@rechtsanwalt-stehmann.de>.
Hello,
Am 21.11.19 um 14:42 schrieb Jörg Schmidt:
> Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at the time when they became a PMC member?
>
Normally we discuss to get a consensus. Crucial votes are out-of-favour.
This is the only way to keep the community together.
Kind regards
Michael
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Branko Čibej [mailto:brane@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 9:31 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
> I'm not sure what you mean by "legally acquired merit."
I mean that community members became PMC members in the way the Apache rules dictate.
> > Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different
> opinions when voting?
>
>
> They surely are, but a healthy community will reach a
> consensus through
> discussion, not by majority fiat through a vote. This is actually a
> crucial point and what the ASF is all about: and, if you find yourself
> making decisions by voting, rather than the vote being just a way to
> formally confirm prior consensus, then something has gone very wrong.
I think so as much as you do.
Unfortunately, I also feel that some project or PMC members (not all) are not welcome to make critical remarks. So far, I still hope I'm wrong.
> Different opinions /should/ be ironed out through discussion.
> If they're
> not, eventually the community will break up. If the community finds
> itself unable to form consensus about some topic, it's better to
> postpone any decision, or explore alternatives.
>
>
> > And if they may, may they not have different opinions in
> the future than at the time when they became a PMC member?
>
>
> Of course they may. That's a normal consequence of learning,
> after all.
Thank you. It's good to hear that there are people who see it that way.
greetings,
Jörg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 21.11.2019 14:42, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Branko Čibej [mailto:brane@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:16 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>
>> I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where
>> merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried
>> employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know
>> what nonsense
>> "smart" managers are capable of coming up with.
> And I didn't(!!!) say anyone intended to buy "merit". I was talking about legally acquired merit.
I'm not sure what you mean by "legally acquired merit."
> Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting?
They surely are, but a healthy community will reach a consensus through
discussion, not by majority fiat through a vote. This is actually a
crucial point and what the ASF is all about: and, if you find yourself
making decisions by voting, rather than the vote being just a way to
formally confirm prior consensus, then something has gone very wrong.
Different opinions /should/ be ironed out through discussion. If they're
not, eventually the community will break up. If the community finds
itself unable to form consensus about some topic, it's better to
postpone any decision, or explore alternatives.
> And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at the time when they became a PMC member?
Of course they may. That's a normal consequence of learning, after all.
-- Brane
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Branko Čibej [mailto:brane@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019 2:16 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
> I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where
> merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried
> employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know
> what nonsense
> "smart" managers are capable of coming up with.
And I didn't(!!!) say anyone intended to buy "merit". I was talking about legally acquired merit.
Or are members of the PMC not allowed to have different opinions when voting? And if they may, may they not have different opinions in the future than at the time when they became a PMC member?
greetings,
Jörg
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
Re: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 21.11.2019 13:35, Jörg Schmidt wrote:
> Hello,
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hagar Delest [mailto:delest.hagar@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM
>> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>>
>> Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
>>> for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
>> think there
>>> is a certain difference between the activity of people who
>> only work
>>> in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
>>> who work in the project out of their own interest.
>> I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
>> project, at least he produces something. Why would it be
>> considered less
>> than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What
>> if the guy
>> is paid AND he likes what he does?
> My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very personal.
>
> For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money. On the other hand the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time.
>
> And please, don't get me wrong:
> the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, but hopefully understandable)
I have not heard of a single instance in the history of the ASF where
merit was bought -- either through donations or through salaried
employees. I'm sure there have been attempts, we all know what nonsense
"smart" managers are capable of coming up with.
If you have evidence that specific people have a secret agenda to
undermine or otherwise steer this project in ways that are not in the
best interests of the users, then by all means bring it up, either here,
or on the private@ list, or to the Board. Open discussion is definitely
encouraged at the ASF.
But please be careful if you do: saying "I have a feeling" is not evidence.
-- Brane
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
RE: volunteer activity tracking
Posted by Jörg Schmidt <jo...@j-m-schmidt.de>.
Hello,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hagar Delest [mailto:delest.hagar@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 7:29 PM
> To: dev@openoffice.apache.org
> Subject: Re: volunteer activity tracking
>
> Le 20/11/2019 à 09:33, Jörg Schmidt a écrit :
> > for example: At first glance, activity is activity, but I
> think there
> > is a certain difference between the activity of people who
> only work
> > in the project because they are paid for it by companies and people
> > who work in the project out of their own interest.
> I don't understand the point. If he someone is paid to work on the
> project, at least he produces something. Why would it be
> considered less
> than the energy put by someone contributing of his own? What
> if the guy
> is paid AND he likes what he does?
My opinion is that "merit" is something specific other than "important" (Your wording was: "Why would it be considered less..."). "merit" is something very personal.
For me, this is personal because each of us, with skill, effort and perhaps also some luck, can earn and donate any amount of money. On the other hand the day has only 24 hours for each of us and nobody can increase this time.
And please, don't get me wrong:
the support by companies or other donors, I don't think is unimportant or of less value in the core, but "merit" is something which for me also contains a pinch of what one could call "honor". (Perhaps not the best choice of words, but hopefully understandable)
> If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
> someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
> the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should
> be afraid
> about that, or should we?
The "development level of the project" is not a criterion for this.
greetings,
Jörg
>
> If there was any 3rd party influence, that would mean that at least
> someone is trying to steer the project with some agenda. According to
> the development level of the project, I'm not sure we should
> be afraid
> about that, or should we?
>
> Let's be realistic and work on the problems instead of preventing
> hypothetical wrong use of the instances.
>
> Hagar (EN Forum moderator)
> Not a developer, just admiring those remaining on the project.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@openoffice.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@openoffice.apache.org