List moderation

[Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org>]

Hi,

I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and
bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there
have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few
thousand spam mails.

I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As
the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails
from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation
unnecessary.

What's the general opinion about this?

Cheers,

Simon


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Re: List moderation

[Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>]

> given that there's a rising tide of demand to make all lists  
> subscriber
> only, i think that this would be better than simply sending all
> unsubscribed posts to /dev/null.

+1

> i have personal itches about some of the required technologies and i
> know some of the spam assassin guys are keen on some of the others.
> maybe i'll try to ambush some people on irc...

that would be great ...any luck yet? :)

cheers
--
Torsten

Re: List moderation

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>]

On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 22:13 +0200, Torsten Curdt wrote:
> > we're moving towards insisting on pgp keys so we could check and
> > moderate through all signed apache.org email without danger.
> >
> 
> You mean forcing all subscribers to use gpg????
> Although I love the idea of forcing people to
> sign their mails
> 
> http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/000093.html
> http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/000174.html
> 
> I fear there is no way we can get away with that.

not for all posts, just for those unsubscribed. 

given that there's a rising tide of demand to make all lists subscriber
only, i think that this would be better than simply sending all
unsubscribed posts to /dev/null.

> >> This would leave open for moderation only a few broad lists (for
> >> instance press@apache.org, which I have the "pleasure" to
> >> moderate :-( ), killing a lot of wasted hours.
> >>
> >> Also, FYI, joes2 is doing some info gathering on moderation  
> >> request to
> >> aid us in filtering incoming moderation spam. See
> >> irc://irc.freenode.net/#asfinfra for more info.
> 
> Language is english for all lists. Filtering out
> mails with all kinds of weird characters would be
> a first step. Still wondering why we don't have
> that already.

+1

> > i've been wondering for a while whether it'd be better to move towards
> > bots and some sort of web app for smarter collaborative moderation.  
> > (one
> > moderators marks a message as spam and all identical ones are
> > automatically rejected from all pending lists.)
> 
> That would be much better ...but it's also quite
> an effort to set this up. I just don't know whether
> it's worth it for those few cross postings

i have personal itches about some of the required technologies and i
know some of the spam assassin guys are keen on some of the others.
maybe i'll try to ambush some people on irc... 

- robert


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Re: List moderation

[Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>]

> we're moving towards insisting on pgp keys so we could check and
> moderate through all signed apache.org email without danger.
>

You mean forcing all subscribers to use gpg????
Although I love the idea of forcing people to
sign their mails

http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/000093.html
http://vafer.org/blog/tcurdt/archives/000174.html

I fear there is no way we can get away with that.

>
>> This would leave open for moderation only a few broad lists (for
>> instance press@apache.org, which I have the "pleasure" to
>> moderate :-( ), killing a lot of wasted hours.
>>
>> Also, FYI, joes2 is doing some info gathering on moderation  
>> request to
>> aid us in filtering incoming moderation spam. See
>> irc://irc.freenode.net/#asfinfra for more info.

Language is english for all lists. Filtering out
mails with all kinds of weird characters would be
a first step. Still wondering why we don't have
that already.

> i've been wondering for a while whether it'd be better to move towards
> bots and some sort of web app for smarter collaborative moderation.  
> (one
> moderators marks a message as spam and all identical ones are
> automatically rejected from all pending lists.)

That would be much better ...but it's also quite
an effort to set this up. I just don't know whether
it's worth it for those few cross postings

cheers
--
Torsten

Re: List moderation

[robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>]

On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 17:25 +0200, Santiago Gala wrote:
> El mié, 10-08-2005 a las 11:27 +0200, Torsten Curdt escribió:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and
> > > bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there
> > > have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few
> > > thousand spam mails.
> > >
> > > I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As
> > > the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails
> > > from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation
> > > unnecessary.
> > >
> > > What's the general opinion about this?
> > 
> > The question is why do we use moderation at all?
> > 
> > I can see only the reason of cross-posting
> > which is discouraged anyway ...and still could
> > be done by people who are subscribed to both lists.
> > 
> > ...so I am with you on this
> > 
> 
> with some scripting magics, we could add to the "allow" list of all
> maining lists all apache.org addresses and aliases set up in some files
> (iclas.txt and other ones), which would also kill the main use case for
> moderation.
> 
> Even allowing all email addresses subscribed to any apache.org list to
> post to the rest of the public onesm though this would be less "safe".

we're moving towards insisting on pgp keys so we could check and
moderate through all signed apache.org email without danger. 

> This would leave open for moderation only a few broad lists (for
> instance press@apache.org, which I have the "pleasure" to
> moderate :-( ), killing a lot of wasted hours.
> 
> Also, FYI, joes2 is doing some info gathering on moderation request to
> aid us in filtering incoming moderation spam. See
> irc://irc.freenode.net/#asfinfra for more info.

i've been wondering for a while whether it'd be better to move towards
bots and some sort of web app for smarter collaborative moderation. (one
moderators marks a message as spam and all identical ones are
automatically rejected from all pending lists.)  

- robert


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Re: List moderation

[Santiago Gala <sg...@apache.org>]

El mié, 10-08-2005 a las 11:27 +0200, Torsten Curdt escribió:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and
> > bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there
> > have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few
> > thousand spam mails.
> >
> > I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As
> > the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails
> > from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation
> > unnecessary.
> >
> > What's the general opinion about this?
> 
> The question is why do we use moderation at all?
> 
> I can see only the reason of cross-posting
> which is discouraged anyway ...and still could
> be done by people who are subscribed to both lists.
> 
> ...so I am with you on this
> 

with some scripting magics, we could add to the "allow" list of all
maining lists all apache.org addresses and aliases set up in some files
(iclas.txt and other ones), which would also kill the main use case for
moderation.

Even allowing all email addresses subscribed to any apache.org list to
post to the rest of the public onesm though this would be less "safe".

This would leave open for moderation only a few broad lists (for
instance press@apache.org, which I have the "pleasure" to
moderate :-( ), killing a lot of wasted hours.

Also, FYI, joes2 is doing some info gathering on moderation request to
aid us in filtering incoming moderation spam. See
irc://irc.freenode.net/#asfinfra for more info.


Regards
Santiago

> cheers
> --
> Torsten
-- 
VP and Chair, Apache Portals (http://portals.apache.org)
Apache Software Foundation

Re: List moderation

[Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>]

> Hi,
>
> I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and
> bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there
> have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few
> thousand spam mails.
>
> I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As
> the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails
> from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation
> unnecessary.
>
> What's the general opinion about this?

The question is why do we use moderation at all?

I can see only the reason of cross-posting
which is discouraged anyway ...and still could
be done by people who are subscribed to both lists.

...so I am with you on this

cheers
--
Torsten

Re: List moderation

[Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>]

>
> I help manage tomcat-users and tomcat-dev, both high volume lists.  
> We use the following policy for both lists:
>
> - anyone can subscribe
> - subscriptions are not moderated
> - subscribers can post
> - posts from non-subscribers are rejected
>
> This works pretty well, the only things tending to go wrong are:
> - genuine users not subscribing and not reading/understanding the  
> reject message - less than 10 a week and easy to deal with
> - auto-responders managing to subscribe themselves to the list -  
> again less than 10 a week and easy to deal with
>
> The only time we have had real problems in the last 2 years has  
> been when an auto-responder managed to get subscribed to the list  
> and was replying to its own replies. This killed the list until my  
> unsubscribe and deny-subscribe messages got through.
>
> Whilst no system is perfect this works well for us and on most days  
> I spend between 0 and 5 minutes dealing with list issues.
>

So this can be decided on a per-project basis already?

cheers
--
Torsten

Re: List moderation

[Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>]

Simon Kitching wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been a moderator for the bcel-dev@jakarta.apache.org and
> bcel-user@jakarta.apache.org for a few months now. In that time there
> have been 2 valid emails from people who weren't subscribed, and a few
> thousand spam mails.
> 
> I'm rather tired of being a human spam filter for the mailing list. As
> the ratio of bad to good emails is so high, I suggest that all mails
> from unsubscribed users simply be discarded making moderation
> unnecessary.
> 
> What's the general opinion about this?

I help manage tomcat-users and tomcat-dev, both high volume lists. We 
use the following policy for both lists:

- anyone can subscribe
- subscriptions are not moderated
- subscribers can post
- posts from non-subscribers are rejected

This works pretty well, the only things tending to go wrong are:
- genuine users not subscribing and not reading/understanding the 
reject message - less than 10 a week and easy to deal with
- auto-responders managing to subscribe themselves to the list - again 
less than 10 a week and easy to deal with

The only time we have had real problems in the last 2 years has been 
when an auto-responder managed to get subscribed to the list and was 
replying to its own replies. This killed the list until my unsubscribe 
and deny-subscribe messages got through.

Whilst no system is perfect this works well for us and on most days I 
spend between 0 and 5 minutes dealing with list issues.

On the basis of my experience I see no need for moderation on xxx-user 
or xxx-dev lists. I can see a case for moderation of other lists such 
as xxx-committers etc.

Mark


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