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Posted to dev@subversion.apache.org by Olivier Fourdan <ol...@tso.transiciel.com> on 2003/05/21 16:22:28 UTC
Subversion questions
Hello,
I'm currently evaluating Subvsersion and I have a couple of questions
that I could not find an answer myself:
1) Does migrating the repository data from an architecture to another
one requires any special procedure ? For example, what if someone hosts
his repository on a Win32 (or MacOS X) system and later wants to migrate
to a Linux or UNIX server for hosting his data under subversion.
2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
3) Backuping the server data (Berkely DB) requires a shutdown of the
database or the backup can be performed with Subversion being running
and accessed ?
4) How does Subversion scale ? Can it support (or will it support) huge
trees ?
Any help will be highly welcome.
Thanks in advance,
PS: Please CC me on the answers, I'm not subscribed to any list.
Cheers,
Olivier.
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
Olivier Fourdan wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm currently evaluating Subvsersion and I have a couple of questions
> that I could not find an answer myself:
>
> 1) Does migrating the repository data from an architecture to another
> one requires any special procedure ? For example, what if someone
> hosts his repository on a Win32 (or MacOS X) system and later wants to
> migrate to a Linux or UNIX server for hosting his data under subversion.
berkeley db databases are not portable between architectures, so you
would need to either manually db_dump and db_restore, or do an 'svnadmin
dump' and 'svnadmin load' to migrate.
> 2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near
> future) any special procedure for the existing repositories ?
> Basically, if someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is
> to be planned when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
in the event of a non-backwards compatable change in the berkeley db
database schema, you can do an svnadmin dump and load to upgrade. this
will likely happen at least once more before 1.0.
> 3) Backuping the server data (Berkely DB) requires a shutdown of the
> database or the backup can be performed with Subversion being running
> and accessed ?
you can do a hot backup, see hot-backup.py in the subversion tarball.
> 4) How does Subversion scale ? Can it support (or will it support)
> huge trees ?
some people are using it with quite large trees, but there are certainly
still issues to resolve. it depends what you're doing with it. if you
try it with a very large tree and run into issues, we'd love to hear
about them.
-garrett
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com>.
In a message dated: 21 May 2003 11:53:15 CDT
cmpilato@collab.net said:
>Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com> writes:
>
>> >2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
>> >any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
>> >someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
>> >when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
>>
>> My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
>> nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
>> backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
>> are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
>> continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no
>> guarantees.
>
>This is correct, but I'd like to supplement your response by saying
>that once Subversion hits 1.0, this compatibility window of a single
>revision will be *greatly* widened. We don't want to scare people by
>making them think they'll have to update their companies' 1.0-or-later
>Subversion installations bi-monthly. :-)
Good point. I interpreted the question as "what do I need to know to
use Subversion right now" vs. post 1.0, since 1.0 seems to be rather
distant (several months away at best). And since my mind has trouble
dealing with time frames any further away than the next cup of
coffee, this seemed like a safe answer for now ;)
--
Seeya,
Paul
--
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com>.
In a message dated: 21 May 2003 19:50:49 CDT
cmpilato@collab.net said:
>> Actually, Paul's response is not correct.
>
>You're right -- I was wrong to say he was right when he was wrong
>about the right topic.
Huh? Okay, I'm not even going to try and untwist this one :)
Let's just all agree I was wrong ;)
--
Seeya,
Paul
--
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by cm...@collab.net.
Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> writes:
> > > My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
> > > nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
> > > backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
> > > are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
> > > continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no
> > > guarantees.
> >
> > This is correct, but I'd like to supplement your response by saying
> > that once Subversion hits 1.0, this compatibility window of a single
> > revision will be *greatly* widened. We don't want to scare people by
> > making them think they'll have to update their companies' 1.0-or-later
> > Subversion installations bi-monthly. :-)
>
> Actually, Paul's response is not correct.
You're right -- I was wrong to say he was right when he was wrong
about the right topic.
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 11:53:15AM -0500, cmpilato@collab.net wrote:
> Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com> writes:
>
> > >2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
> > >any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
> > >someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
> > >when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
> >
> > My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
> > nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
> > backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
> > are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
> > continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no
> > guarantees.
>
> This is correct, but I'd like to supplement your response by saying
> that once Subversion hits 1.0, this compatibility window of a single
> revision will be *greatly* widened. We don't want to scare people by
> making them think they'll have to update their companies' 1.0-or-later
> Subversion installations bi-monthly. :-)
Actually, Paul's response is not correct.
The question was about *repositories*. The repository is directly usable
except when we change the schema. As Garrett noted, we plan to change that
once more before 1.0, but a simple dump/load will rectify the schema change.
*Protocol* changes have the compatibility window issue.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by cm...@collab.net.
Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com> writes:
> >2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
> >any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
> >someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
> >when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
>
> My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
> nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
> backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
> are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
> continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no
> guarantees.
This is correct, but I'd like to supplement your response by saying
that once Subversion hits 1.0, this compatibility window of a single
revision will be *greatly* widened. We don't want to scare people by
making them think they'll have to update their companies' 1.0-or-later
Subversion installations bi-monthly. :-)
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com>.
In a message dated: Thu, 22 May 2003 12:45:55 EDT
"Glenn A. Thompson" said:
>Hey,
>
>>Well, you're quite welcome to my answers, despite my being slighly
>>incorrect about a few things. Hopefully you've received the replies
>>from CMike, gat, and Ben which were actually correct :)
>>
>Did I respond to this thread? I must be losing my mind:-)
Sorry, no, you didn't, it was gstein. It looks like my mind has
wandered off to where ever you lost yours :)
--
Seeya,
Paul
--
Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE
It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by "Glenn A. Thompson" <gt...@cdr.net>.
Hey,
>Well, you're quite welcome to my answers, despite my being slighly
>incorrect about a few things. Hopefully you've received the replies
>from CMike, gat, and Ben which were actually correct :)
>
Did I respond to this thread? I must be losing my mind:-)
gat
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com>.
In a message dated: 22 May 2003 10:23:30 +0200
Olivier Fourdan said:
>Okay, I'm convinced, I've subscribed :)
Good thing you did too, since I seem to have been wrong with most of
my answers which were correct by the stellar group of developers here :)
>Thanks (you and everybody who took time to answer my questions) for
>answering, I really appreciate it,
Well, you're quite welcome to my answers, despite my being slighly
incorrect about a few things. Hopefully you've received the replies
from CMike, gat, and Ben which were actually correct :)
--
Seeya,
Paul
--
Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE
It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Olivier Fourdan <ol...@tso.transiciel.com>.
On Wed, 2003-05-21 at 18:46, Paul L Lussier wrote:
> Did you check the Subversion book? It's available in source form if
> you downloaded the source tree, or on-line at the Subversion website.
> It should contain the answers to all your questions.
> (It may *not* contain all the answers, but it *should* :)
Sure, I did, I took about a week reading that book and evaluating
Subversion :)
That's indeed a very helpful documentation (such good documentations on
developping Open Source projects aren't that common)
> >1) Does migrating the repository data from an architecture to another
> >one requires any special procedure ? For example, what if someone hosts
> >his repository on a Win32 (or MacOS X) system and later wants to migrate
> >to a Linux or UNIX server for hosting his data under subversion.
>
> You should be able to simply 'svnadmin dump' the repo on one system,
> redirect to a file, then 'svnadmin load' that file on the other
> system.
Well, okay. I was mainly worried about the line terminators between
platforms, but I guess svnadmin dump/load takes care of such issues.
> >2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
> >any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
> >someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
> >when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
>
> My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
> nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
> backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
> are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
> continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no guarantees.
>
> However, this should also be solved using the svnadmin dump/load
> procedure if I followed the earlier discussion on this correctly.
Okay.
> >3) Backuping the server data (Berkely DB) requires a shutdown of the
> >database or the backup can be performed with Subversion being running
> >and accessed ?
>
> Well, Berkeley DB is not like a typical RDBMS in that there's a
> process to shut down or start up. You can copy the db files anytime
> you want, however, you may wish to guarantee that there is no
> activity operating on those files when the copy is made. So, it is
> recommended that you prevent access to the Subversion server while
> the backups are being performed. This may be as simple as shutting
> down Apache, or, as complex as preventing SSH access to the system as
> well.
Well, that was my point actually. I realize that my question was mainly
a Berkeley DB question than actually a Subversion question, so I really
appreciate your answer.
> >4) How does Subversion scale ? Can it support (or will it support) huge trees ?
>
> Can you define 'huge' trees? There are some large repositories
> listed on the Subversion website on the order of 1+GB. There is at
> least one which is over 7GB. Is that large by your definition?
That's huge :) Much interesting point.
> The best way to learn about Subversion is to use it and to subscribe
> to this list. I highly recommend it.
Okay, I'm convinced, I've subscribed :)
Thanks (you and everybody who took time to answer my questions) for
answering, I really appreciate it,
Cheers,
Olivier.
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, May 21, 2003 at 12:46:55PM -0400, Paul L Lussier wrote:
> In a message dated: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:22:28 +0200
> Olivier Fourdan said:
>...
> >1) Does migrating the repository data from an architecture to another
> >one requires any special procedure ? For example, what if someone hosts
> >his repository on a Win32 (or MacOS X) system and later wants to migrate
> >to a Linux or UNIX server for hosting his data under subversion.
>
> You should be able to simply 'svnadmin dump' the repo on one system,
> redirect to a file, then 'svnadmin load' that file on the other
> system.
Yup. The svnadmin dump/load and the corresponding dumpfile format is
compatible (it's a text file) as long as you don't try to run any newline
conversion on the dumpfile.
> >2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
> >any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
> >someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
> >when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
See my previous email.
>...
> >3) Backuping the server data (Berkely DB) requires a shutdown of the
> >database or the backup can be performed with Subversion being running
> >and accessed ?
>
> Well, Berkeley DB is not like a typical RDBMS in that there's a
> process to shut down or start up. You can copy the db files anytime
> you want, however, you may wish to guarantee that there is no
> activity operating on those files when the copy is made. So, it is
> recommended that you prevent access to the Subversion server while
> the backups are being performed. This may be as simple as shutting
> down Apache, or, as complex as preventing SSH access to the system as
> well.
This is incorrect.
Berkeley DB is fully capable of performing a hot backup. You can back up the
repository even while commits are being performed. There is no need to
prevent operations, stop servers, or anything like that.
As Garrett pointed out, see the hot-backup.py script. The key is simply how
you copy the database files (the order of the copies).
> >4) How does Subversion scale ? Can it support (or will it support) huge trees ?
>
> Can you define 'huge' trees? There are some large repositories
> listed on the Subversion website on the order of 1+GB. There is at
> least one which is over 7GB. Is that large by your definition?
Right. What is "huge" ? Our current design *should* scale to very large
trees and very large numbers of revisions. Experience so far seems to
indicate that is going well.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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Re: Subversion questions
Posted by Paul L Lussier <pl...@lanminds.com>.
In a message dated: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:22:28 +0200
Olivier Fourdan said:
>I'm currently evaluating Subvsersion and I have a couple of questions
>that I could not find an answer myself:
Did you check the Subversion book? It's available in source form if
you downloaded the source tree, or on-line at the Subversion website.
It should contain the answers to all your questions.
(It may *not* contain all the answers, but it *should* :)
>1) Does migrating the repository data from an architecture to another
>one requires any special procedure ? For example, what if someone hosts
>his repository on a Win32 (or MacOS X) system and later wants to migrate
>to a Linux or UNIX server for hosting his data under subversion.
You should be able to simply 'svnadmin dump' the repo on one system,
redirect to a file, then 'svnadmin load' that file on the other
system.
>2) Does upgrading Subversion requires (or will require in a near future)
>any special procedure for the existing repositories ? Basically, if
>someone uses Subversion right now, does a migration is to be planned
>when Subversion 1.0 comes out, for example ?
My understanding is that if you keep up with the releases, there is
nothing to worry about, and that a best effort toward
backward compatibility is made for at least one revision. So, if you
are running 0.22 and svn 0.23 is released, then your safe. If you
continue on with 0.22, and 0.27 is released, there are no guarantees.
However, this should also be solved using the svnadmin dump/load
procedure if I followed the earlier discussion on this correctly.
>3) Backuping the server data (Berkely DB) requires a shutdown of the
>database or the backup can be performed with Subversion being running
>and accessed ?
Well, Berkeley DB is not like a typical RDBMS in that there's a
process to shut down or start up. You can copy the db files anytime
you want, however, you may wish to guarantee that there is no
activity operating on those files when the copy is made. So, it is
recommended that you prevent access to the Subversion server while
the backups are being performed. This may be as simple as shutting
down Apache, or, as complex as preventing SSH access to the system as
well.
>4) How does Subversion scale ? Can it support (or will it support) huge trees ?
Can you define 'huge' trees? There are some large repositories
listed on the Subversion website on the order of 1+GB. There is at
least one which is over 7GB. Is that large by your definition?
>Any help will be highly welcome.
>Thanks in advance,
>
>PS: Please CC me on the answers, I'm not subscribed to any list.
The best way to learn about Subversion is to use it and to subscribe
to this list. I highly recommend it.
--
Seeya,
Paul
--
Key fingerprint = 1660 FECC 5D21 D286 F853 E808 BB07 9239 53F1 28EE
It may look like I'm just sitting here doing nothing,
but I'm really actively waiting for all my problems to go away.
If you're not having fun, you're not doing it right!
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