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Posted to dev@maven.apache.org by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com> on 2003/09/11 09:44:52 UTC
Core plugins?
Hi,
Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1 would
be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which would
not be part of the main maven distribution.
What I don't understand is the concept of "code plugins". For me a
plugin is a plugin and they should all be treated equal.
What is the rationale behind hosting core plugins in the maven core?
Why couldn't the be download like the other ones?
Why couldn't they have a spearate lifecycle than the maven core?
Thanks
-Vincent
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
Ok. Cool. We are saying the same thing. Just a matter of time. I'm fine
with having a transition period where we keep some "core plugin" stuff
in Maven core.
Thanks
-Vincent
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:jvanzyl@maven.org]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 15:38
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: RE: Core plugins?
>
> On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 09:19, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:jvanzyl@maven.org]
> > > Sent: 11 September 2003 15:01
> > > To: Maven Developers List
> > > Subject: Re: Core plugins?
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 03:44, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1
> > would
> > > > be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which
> > would
> > > > not be part of the main maven distribution.
> > > >
> > > > What I don't understand is the concept of "code plugins". For me
a
> > > > plugin is a plugin and they should all be treated equal.
> > > >
> > > > What is the rationale behind hosting core plugins in the maven
core?
> > >
> > > Being required for the bootstrap is one criterion,
> >
> > The bootstrap is done with Ant AFAIK.
>
> The first stage is. Subsequent stages use Maven itself along with
> several plugins.
>
> > It could contain the Plugin
> > Manager and thus the code to download plugins. Anyway, the bootstrap
> > already retrieves the needed jars from the remote repo. Why couldn't
it
> > also retrieve plugin jars?
>
> I am all for doing this but not with the current code. I don't think
> it's necessary so long as plugins can be downloaded separately and
used.
>
> > > the other is the core
> > > reports that people expect. The reports we could eventually off
load
> > by
> > > themselves but for now I'm happy keeping the standard reports in
the
> > > core for now.
> >
> > I think we're mixing 2 things here:
> > - what plugins and reports people are used to use
> > - where the plugins are located
>
> Yes, I realize. There are many things in the core currently that are
> mixed. I'm just saying it is not worth the time now to eliminate every
> last plugin from the core before we make a release.
>
> > What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20
plugin
> > dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin".
But
> > these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to
be
> > distributed with Maven.
>
> Yes, I'm saying a stopgap measure is to include the plugins so people
> don't have to do this for the majority of things and make a release.
>
> > What we need is a default project.xml that is automatically
inherited by
> > all projects. In this default project.xml, we would list:
> > - the core plugins
> > - the core reports
>
> This can certainly come in subsequent releases but I would like to
stick
> to the roadmap and get the release out. Or we will linger as we
usually
> do.
>
> > But again, I don't see why we need to host any plugin within maven
core.
> >
> > What would be nice is to let people add plugin they use daily to
this
> > default project.xml so that they can benefit from them being
> > automatically added to all their projects.
> >
> > Comments?
>
> I would like to stick to the roadmap, but this issue can certainly be
> placed in JIRA for consideration for a 1.1 release say. I think it
would
> suffice to include some expected plugins with the ability to add new
> ones and improve the mechanism in a later release.
>
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> --
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
> jason@zenplex.com
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
>
> In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
> and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
>
> -- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
>
>
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 09:19, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:jvanzyl@maven.org]
> > Sent: 11 September 2003 15:01
> > To: Maven Developers List
> > Subject: Re: Core plugins?
> >
> > On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 03:44, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1
> would
> > > be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which
> would
> > > not be part of the main maven distribution.
> > >
> > > What I don't understand is the concept of "code plugins". For me a
> > > plugin is a plugin and they should all be treated equal.
> > >
> > > What is the rationale behind hosting core plugins in the maven core?
> >
> > Being required for the bootstrap is one criterion,
>
> The bootstrap is done with Ant AFAIK.
The first stage is. Subsequent stages use Maven itself along with
several plugins.
> It could contain the Plugin
> Manager and thus the code to download plugins. Anyway, the bootstrap
> already retrieves the needed jars from the remote repo. Why couldn't it
> also retrieve plugin jars?
I am all for doing this but not with the current code. I don't think
it's necessary so long as plugins can be downloaded separately and used.
> > the other is the core
> > reports that people expect. The reports we could eventually off load
> by
> > themselves but for now I'm happy keeping the standard reports in the
> > core for now.
>
> I think we're mixing 2 things here:
> - what plugins and reports people are used to use
> - where the plugins are located
Yes, I realize. There are many things in the core currently that are
mixed. I'm just saying it is not worth the time now to eliminate every
last plugin from the core before we make a release.
> What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20 plugin
> dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin". But
> these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to be
> distributed with Maven.
Yes, I'm saying a stopgap measure is to include the plugins so people
don't have to do this for the majority of things and make a release.
> What we need is a default project.xml that is automatically inherited by
> all projects. In this default project.xml, we would list:
> - the core plugins
> - the core reports
This can certainly come in subsequent releases but I would like to stick
to the roadmap and get the release out. Or we will linger as we usually
do.
> But again, I don't see why we need to host any plugin within maven core.
>
> What would be nice is to let people add plugin they use daily to this
> default project.xml so that they can benefit from them being
> automatically added to all their projects.
>
> Comments?
I would like to stick to the roadmap, but this issue can certainly be
placed in JIRA for consideration for a 1.1 release say. I think it would
suffice to include some expected plugins with the ability to add new
ones and improve the mechanism in a later release.
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@maven.apache.org
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@karmalab.org>.
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, [ISO-8859-2] Aslak Helles?y wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> >
> >Yes, things will be much further with components. I promise :-)
> >
> >
> Hmmm. Components. Have you chosen a container yet? :-) ;-)
>
> <cough>http://www.picocontainer.org/</cough>
I believe that http://plexus.codehaus.org/ is the container of choice.
-Kurt
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Re: [offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Norbert Pabi¶ wrote:
>
> For a person who wants to choose a container it is important
> to see documentation that allows to choose the software, that
> suits its needs or just to comprehend new technology and its ideas.
http://avalon.apache.org/sandbox/merlin
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
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Re: [offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 12:04, Norbert Pabiś wrote:
>>There should much more documentation in plexus xdocs.
>
>
> No there shouldn't. Although there is a plexus user that wants to work
> on documentation there is a specific reason that I haven't written any
> and that is strictly to keep 99.99% of anyone looking at it from using
> it. Sounds paradoxical but true. Although it is very stable there are
> pieces that I want to change or rework and I'm not looking for any user
> base at the moment. With what is there I have found 10 or so people who
> develop with plexus and who have navigated the terrain just fine on
> their own and understand what's there. I'm getting very good feedback
> from that small group while I'm still focused on some design and
> testing. I am not interested in those who don't understand at this
> point.
> As with most things I do, I'm not looking to convince you to use plexus.
> Use what you like.
You don't have to convince me, really.
I am not going to use neither Plexus nor PicoContainer.
I just wanted to get familiar with them without developing anything,
and to know its potential and the way it is usually used.
For a person who wants to choose a container it is important
to see documentation that allows to choose the software, that
suits its needs or just to comprehend new technology and its ideas.
From this point of view, PicoContainer presents better.
Now I know you don't care about user base (at least nowadays), but
large user base is what makes open sources projects alive. In projects with
small user base if core developers quit the projects dies.
If you don't care about it - fine.
I just wanted to draw your attention to this fact.
> I see as a better investment of my time
> than writing documentation. Documentation is critical, I agree. But it
> is hard to write and not something I'm ready to do with plexus.
> In the future most people will know about plexus by way of Maven. Most
> people will probably use plexus without knowing it.
Reading Maven site I found this stuff extremely useful to me, so despite of
some holes in documentation I started to use it, reading jelly scripts
and Java
sources when trouble appeared.
These allowed me to use Maven successfully.
Without enough documentation you get rid of people that may decide
to use that software. I mean lead programmers or architects who just
choose software components without hacking with them immediately.
However, you still may pay no attention to it.
It is free world. I am far from pushing you to anything.
You decide how you invest your time - it is all volunteer effort.
Plexus probably is a good piece of software, I just thought that
you care about user base.
--
Norbert Pabiś
Nobody expects the Debian Inquisition!
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency!
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Re: [offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 12:04, Norbert Pabiś wrote:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > I don't think so, Aslak likes his container and I like mine :-) But
> > there's no reason Plexus can't support Pico components. It has other
> > factories. If people write components for Picocontainer we can use them.
> > Not a problem. As for Picocontainer itself, I'm really not sold on the
> > idea.
> There should much more documentation in plexus xdocs.
No there shouldn't. Although there is a plexus user that wants to work
on documentation there is a specific reason that I haven't written any
and that is strictly to keep 99.99% of anyone looking at it from using
it. Sounds paradoxical but true. Although it is very stable there are
pieces that I want to change or rework and I'm not looking for any user
base at the moment. With what is there I have found 10 or so people who
develop with plexus and who have navigated the terrain just fine on
their own and understand what's there. I'm getting very good feedback
from that small group while I'm still focused on some design and
testing. I am not interested in those who don't understand at this
point.
You could call it an intentional guauntlet if you like. For those who
have navigated what's there and have asked intelligent questions I have
an ardent respect for. These people ask questions that help shape what
plexus will become. I don't have many users of plexus yet, but the one's
that I have provide what I'm looking for currently. There is usually a
high level of interaction with these people: a lot of email discussions,
irc chats and at this point that I see as a better investment of my time
than writing documentation. Documentation is critical, I agree. But it
is hard to write and not something I'm ready to do with plexus.
As with most things I do, I'm not looking to convince you to use plexus.
Use what you like.
In the future most people will know about plexus by way of Maven. Most
people will probably use plexus without knowing it.
Even on the maven side of things just having one other person understand
plexus is really all I need right now. Michal jumped in and pretty much
figured out plexus in a day or two and was writing components in pretty
short order. We've bounced tons of ideas around, played with some
prototypes (which started in maven-new) and thrown some out. Again, it's
somewhat like a guauntlet. I know who knows what.
--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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RE: [offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Michal Maczka <mm...@interia.pl>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norbert Pabiś [mailto:npabis@e-point.pl]
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 6:05 PM
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: [offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
>
>
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > I don't think so, Aslak likes his container and I like mine :-) But
> > there's no reason Plexus can't support Pico components. It has other
> > factories. If people write components for Picocontainer we can use them.
> > Not a problem. As for Picocontainer itself, I'm really not sold on the
> > idea.
> There should much more documentation in plexus xdocs.
And everybody should be healthy and rich, there should be peace all over
the world
and many, many more things. Sorry this world is cruel :)
> I am a newbie to both containers, and my first experience to PicoContainer
> was smooth while Plexus is still kinda mysterious after reading
> available documentation.
>
AFAIK: It is not yet ready for public consumption.
serd. pzdr.
Michal
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[offtopic] Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
> I don't think so, Aslak likes his container and I like mine :-) But
> there's no reason Plexus can't support Pico components. It has other
> factories. If people write components for Picocontainer we can use them.
> Not a problem. As for Picocontainer itself, I'm really not sold on the
> idea.
There should much more documentation in plexus xdocs.
I am a newbie to both containers, and my first experience to PicoContainer
was smooth while Plexus is still kinda mysterious after reading
available documentation.
--
Norbert Pabiś
Nobody expects the Debian Inquisition!
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency!
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 22:36, dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
> Aslak Helles?y <as...@thoughtworks.net> wrote on 12/09/2003 08:18:12 AM:
>
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Yes, things will be much further with components. I promise :-)
> > >
> > >
> > Hmmm. Components. Have you chosen a container yet? :-) ;-)
> >
> > <cough>http://www.picocontainer.org/</cough>
> >
> > Aslak
>
> <cough>Religious Wars</cough>
I don't think so, Aslak likes his container and I like mine :-) But
there's no reason Plexus can't support Pico components. It has other
factories. If people write components for Picocontainer we can use them.
Not a problem. As for Picocontainer itself, I'm really not sold on the
idea.
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
>
>
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
Aslak Helles?y <as...@thoughtworks.net> wrote on 12/09/2003 08:18:12 AM:
> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> >
> >Yes, things will be much further with components. I promise :-)
> >
> >
> Hmmm. Components. Have you chosen a container yet? :-) ;-)
>
> <cough>http://www.picocontainer.org/</cough>
>
> Aslak
<cough>Religious Wars</cough>
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Aslak Helles?y <as...@thoughtworks.net>.
Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>Yes, things will be much further with components. I promise :-)
>
>
Hmmm. Components. Have you chosen a container yet? :-) ;-)
<cough>http://www.picocontainer.org/</cough>
Aslak
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 13:49, Rafal Krzewski wrote:
> Norbert Pabiś wrote:
>
> > Yes.
> > You said you don't want users to have 20 dependencies in project.xml.
> > I do not want to have any. If there will default project.xml with
> > preferred versions
> > with a possibility to change it - that sounds good to me.
>
> Sounds interesting, but it's rather hard to achieve. First it would
> require multi-level POM inheritance. At the momen Maven supports only
> sinle level of inheritance.
Not so in some newer code. I want to release 1.x so I can expose some
new stuff :-)
> Second it would require intelligent merging
> of dependencies: at this moment declaring any dependencies in the child
> project discards all inforamtion about parent project's dependencies.
Not true. Right now they are aggregated, there is an exception made for
dependencies.
> I believe that Maven will support both of these things in the future
> (post 1.0, definetely). When they are in place you could have:
>
> defaluts.xml (distributed with maven, contains deps on known good
> | plugins at the time of the release)
> |
> V
> common.xml (settings for the whole project)
> |
> |
> V
> project.xml (settings for a particular module)
Yes, things will be much further with components. I promise :-)
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Rafal Krzewski <Ra...@caltha.pl>.
Norbert Pabiś wrote:
> Yes.
> You said you don't want users to have 20 dependencies in project.xml.
> I do not want to have any. If there will default project.xml with
> preferred versions
> with a possibility to change it - that sounds good to me.
Sounds interesting, but it's rather hard to achieve. First it would
require multi-level POM inheritance. At the momen Maven supports only
sinle level of inheritance. Second it would require intelligent merging
of dependencies: at this moment declaring any dependencies in the child
project discards all inforamtion about parent project's dependencies.
I believe that Maven will support both of these things in the future
(post 1.0, definetely). When they are in place you could have:
defaluts.xml (distributed with maven, contains deps on known good
| plugins at the time of the release)
|
V
common.xml (settings for the whole project)
|
|
V
project.xml (settings for a particular module)
R.
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Vincent Massol wrote:
>My view is that effectively whenever Maven is released it will provide
>a default list of core plugins in their most recent released version.
>Of course, this default project.xml file can be changed at any time by a user.
>Actually, if you wish you could keep it from one version of Maven
>to another so that you could keep your customizations.
>Is that good enough?
Yes.
You said you don't want users to have 20 dependencies in project.xml.
I do not want to have any. If there will default project.xml with
preferred versions
with a possibility to change it - that sounds good to me.
--
Norbert Pabiś
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Deploy Plugin Should Use Artifact?
Posted by Eric Pugh <ep...@upstate.com>.
Hi all,
Not sure, but the deploy plugin looks like it may have gotton stale.. Should it use the artifact tags? It seems like there needs to be a plugin to wrap the basic artifact tags..?
Eric
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norbert Pabiœ [mailto:npabis@e-point.pl]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 18:28
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: Re: Core plugins?
>
> Vincent Massol wrote:
> > How do you tell a given project to use such version of the plugin?
> This is good point. Of course you can add -D's but that would be ugly
> and inconvenient. <dependencies> are better here.
>
> But what about such a case.
> You have maven-site-plugin-1.2, maven-site-plugin-1.3, maven-site-beta2
> Do I have to have dependency in my project.xml pointing to version I
> want to use?
>
> Maybe core plugins will not be allowed to be multiversioned?
> Or one version of core plugin will be default per specific maven version?
>
> Sorry if that was discussed earlier, in that case I'll look at list
> archives first.
I can’t remember any discussion about this point but I haven't been following everything either... My view is that effectively whenever Maven is released it will provide a default list of core plugins in their most recent released version.
Of course, this default project.xml file can be changed at any time by a user. Actually, if you wish you could keep it from one version of Maven to another so that you could keep your customizations.
Is that good enough?
-Vincent
>
> --
> Norbert Pabiś
>
>
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Vincent Massol wrote:
> How do you tell a given project to use such version of the plugin?
This is good point. Of course you can add -D's but that would be ugly
and inconvenient. <dependencies> are better here.
But what about such a case.
You have maven-site-plugin-1.2, maven-site-plugin-1.3, maven-site-beta2
Do I have to have dependency in my project.xml pointing to version I
want to use?
Maybe core plugins will not be allowed to be multiversioned?
Or one version of core plugin will be default per specific maven version?
Sorry if that was discussed earlier, in that case I'll look at list
archives first.
--
Norbert Pabiś
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norbert Pabiœ [mailto:npabis@e-point.pl]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 17:41
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: Re: Core plugins?
>
> Vincent Massol wrote:
> > Hi Norbert,
> >
> > First my mail wasn't about discussing the way plugins are
referenced.
> > I thought this had already been discussed and agreed (i.e. using
> project.xml and <dependencies>).
> I don't want to change that. All I wanted is to share that idea about
> plugin independence from project.
> The plugin:install I mentioned can coexist with plugins in
> <dependencies>. It just enables people to focus
> on compiling, testing and running project while writing dependencies.
>
> > Then your solution doesn't handle plugin versions.
> It can be handled easily -D"plugin.version=1.3"
> You can add anything missing as system variable.
How do you tell a given project to use such version of the plugin?
[snip]
-Vincent
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Vincent Massol wrote:
> Hi Norbert,
>
> First my mail wasn't about discussing the way plugins are referenced.
> I thought this had already been discussed and agreed (i.e. using
project.xml and <dependencies>).
I don't want to change that. All I wanted is to share that idea about
plugin independence from project.
The plugin:install I mentioned can coexist with plugins in
<dependencies>. It just enables people to focus
on compiling, testing and running project while writing dependencies.
> Then your solution doesn't handle plugin versions.
It can be handled easily -D"plugin.version=1.3"
You can add anything missing as system variable.
> One project may want to use such plugin in version 1.0 and another
may want to use another version.
> Here's an example: the checkstyle plugin. One project is using
checkstyle 2.4 and another one is using checkstyle 3.1.
> BTW, I don't know if plugin versions are supportede right now, i.e. if it is possible to have the same plugin
> loaded twice, but with different versions...
See, plugins are different from simple jar dependencies...
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Norbert Pabiś
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
dion@multitask.com.au wrote:
>>First my mail wasn't about discussing the way plugins are
>>referenced. I thought this had already been discussed and agreed (i.
>>e. using project.xml and <dependencies>).
>
> This is only one solution, and not one we want to enforce on users.
>
> The plugin plugin has a partially completed goal to download and install
> plugins. This is what we would like people to do.
This is good, because projects generally should not depend on
specific maven version and any plugin version.
Any maven version should build all project artifacts as long as
POM version remains the same.
And this is first case, when there is no maven.xml in project, just
project.xml
The second is when project has its own maven.xml, with goals that
depends on plugins. Here project should define its dependencies from
maven version and plugin versions.
However this case can be reverted to the first one by packaging custom goals
from maven.xml to custom downloadable plugin.
And now we have problems I address below.
>>BTW, I don't know if plugin versions are supportede right now, i.e.
>>if it is possible to have the same plugin loaded twice, but with
>>different versions...
>
> It is at the moment, and this is bad.
To mention just two things:
- separated downloadable plugins must have defined dependency from
specific maven version - it might depend on its API and specific POM version
- plugins that simply change goals from other plugins, should
have set dependency on them what can result in conflicts
pluginA->pluginB->pluginC-1.2
pluginA->pluginD->plugicC-1.3
How will they be handled?
--
Norbert Pabiś
Nobody expects the Debian Inquisition!
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency!
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Vincent Massol" <vm...@pivolis.com> wrote on 12/09/2003 01:19:36 AM:
> Hi Norbert,
>
> First my mail wasn't about discussing the way plugins are
> referenced. I thought this had already been discussed and agreed (i.
> e. using project.xml and <dependencies>).
This is only one solution, and not one we want to enforce on users.
The plugin plugin has a partially completed goal to download and install
plugins. This is what we would like people to do.
> BTW, I don't know if plugin versions are supportede right now, i.e.
> if it is possible to have the same plugin loaded twice, but with
> different versions...
It is at the moment, and this is bad.
I believe Brett is looking to fix this.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
Hi Norbert,
First my mail wasn't about discussing the way plugins are referenced. I thought this had already been discussed and agreed (i.e. using project.xml and <dependencies>).
Then your solution doesn't handle plugin versions. One project may want to use such plugin in version 1.0 and another may want to use another version. Here's an example: the checkstyle plugin. One project is using checkstyle 2.4 and another one is using checkstyle 3.1.
BTW, I don't know if plugin versions are supportede right now, i.e. if it is possible to have the same plugin loaded twice, but with different versions...
-Vincent
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Norbert Pabiœ [mailto:npabis@e-point.pl]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 17:06
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: Re: Core plugins?
>
> Vincent Massol wrote:
> > What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20 plugin
> > dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin". But
> > these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to be
> > distributed with Maven.
>
> This is a little weird.
> project.xml contains dependencies for code, for compiling, testing and
> running (maybe with distinction among them in future).
> Adding plugins to dependencies is artifical.
> How about something like
> maven plugin:install foo
> -
> D"maven.repo.remote=http://my.plugin.repository/maven,http://www.ibiblio.o
> rg/maven"
>
> This is done once and it is independent from any project exactly the way
> core plugins are installed now.
>
> --
> Norbert Pabiś
>
>
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
This is underway, but needs someone to finish it off.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl> wrote on 12/09/2003 01:05:51 AM:
> Vincent Massol wrote:
> > What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20
plugin
> > dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin".
But
> > these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to
be
> > distributed with Maven.
>
> This is a little weird.
> project.xml contains dependencies for code, for compiling, testing and
> running (maybe with distinction among them in future).
> Adding plugins to dependencies is artifical.
> How about something like
> maven plugin:install foo
> -D"maven.repo.remote=http://my.plugin.repository/maven,http://www.
> ibiblio.org/maven"
>
> This is done once and it is independent from any project exactly the way
> core plugins are installed now.
>
> --
> Norbert Pabiś
>
>
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>
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Norbert Pabiś <np...@e-point.pl>.
Vincent Massol wrote:
> What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20 plugin
> dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin". But
> these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to be
> distributed with Maven.
This is a little weird.
project.xml contains dependencies for code, for compiling, testing and
running (maybe with distinction among them in future).
Adding plugins to dependencies is artifical.
How about something like
maven plugin:install foo
-D"maven.repo.remote=http://my.plugin.repository/maven,http://www.ibiblio.org/maven"
This is done once and it is independent from any project exactly the way
core plugins are installed now.
--
Norbert Pabiś
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RE: Core plugins?
Posted by Vincent Massol <vm...@pivolis.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason van Zyl [mailto:jvanzyl@maven.org]
> Sent: 11 September 2003 15:01
> To: Maven Developers List
> Subject: Re: Core plugins?
>
> On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 03:44, Vincent Massol wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1
would
> > be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which
would
> > not be part of the main maven distribution.
> >
> > What I don't understand is the concept of "code plugins". For me a
> > plugin is a plugin and they should all be treated equal.
> >
> > What is the rationale behind hosting core plugins in the maven core?
>
> Being required for the bootstrap is one criterion,
The bootstrap is done with Ant AFAIK. It could contain the Plugin
Manager and thus the code to download plugins. Anyway, the bootstrap
already retrieves the needed jars from the remote repo. Why couldn't it
also retrieve plugin jars?
> the other is the core
> reports that people expect. The reports we could eventually off load
by
> themselves but for now I'm happy keeping the standard reports in the
> core for now.
I think we're mixing 2 things here:
- what plugins and reports people are used to use
- where the plugins are located
What we seem to need is a way to prevent folks having to enter 20 plugin
dependencies in all their project.xml. These are the "core plugin". But
these plugins do not have to be located in Maven nor do they need to be
distributed with Maven.
What we need is a default project.xml that is automatically inherited by
all projects. In this default project.xml, we would list:
- the core plugins
- the core reports
But again, I don't see why we need to host any plugin within maven core.
What would be nice is to let people add plugin they use daily to this
default project.xml so that they can benefit from them being
automatically added to all their projects.
Comments?
Thanks
-Vincent
[snip]
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 03:44, Vincent Massol wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1 would
> be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which would
> not be part of the main maven distribution.
>
> What I don't understand is the concept of "code plugins". For me a
> plugin is a plugin and they should all be treated equal.
>
> What is the rationale behind hosting core plugins in the maven core?
Being required for the bootstrap is one criterion, the other is the core
reports that people expect. The reports we could eventually off load by
themselves but for now I'm happy keeping the standard reports in the
core for now.
> Why couldn't the be download like the other ones?
> Why couldn't they have a spearate lifecycle than the maven core?
Most of the plugins will but a handful of them are required for the
bootstrap and it's not worth jumping through fire blazened hoops to
separate them all at this point simply for the sake of separating them
all.
>
> Thanks
> -Vincent
>
>
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jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@zenplex.com
http://tambora.zenplex.org
In short, man creates for himself a new religion of a rational
and technical order to justify his work and to be justified in it.
-- Jacques Ellul, The Technological Society
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Re: Core plugins?
Posted by di...@multitask.com.au.
"Vincent Massol" <vm...@pivolis.com> wrote on 11/09/2003 05:44:52 PM:
> Hi,
>
> Brett mentioned in a an earlier email today that the idea of RC1 would
> be a maven core containing core plugins and other plugins which would
> not be part of the main maven distribution.
That's not what I thought he said.
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog: http://blogs.codehaus.org/people/dion/
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