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Posted to users@maven.apache.org by Olivier CHAMPAGNE <ol...@sysde.eads.net> on 2004/02/05 15:08:16 UTC
Réf. : Re: new idea on maven usage?
Hello,
In my current project (see my previous posts/questions for a light
description), Maven is still used :
1. to build a system (a framework used by end-user's projects) uploaded on
our intranet
2. to distribute and manage "software" during further framework' uses by
projects from our intranet.
It's still a "rudimentary" tool in this domain because we must develop few
plugins around it to manage reference data and internal tools required but
its automatic dependencies' dowload mechanism is very powerfull. Our needs
to distribute tools in projects' userspace is definitly based on Maven.
Moreover, Maven is partially used as a java buils tool but could be also a
C/C++/perl builder and automates a wide-range documentation generation
(during the two previous stages).
For us, Maven represents the world's wonder (mouton à cinq pattes in french
?). Thanks to its authors ;o)
Olivier Champagne @ EADS, Labège
(\(\ "Regular Expression
( ~.) are to strings what
o((")(") math is to numbers"
Dalibor Topic
<robilad@kaffe Pour : Maven Users List <us...@maven.apache.org>
.org> cc :
Objet : Re: new idea on maven usage?
05/02/2004
14:21
Veuillez
répondre à
"Maven Users
List"
Hi Rafal,
Rafal Krzewski wrote:
> Dalibor Topic wrote:
>
>
>>But this is not the proper forum to discuss package management systems.
>>The thread is about using maven for package management, and I'm arguing
>>that it's not suited for it.
>
>
> Dude, you keep missing the point! Maven *is not* and does not *pose*
> itself to be a package management system!
Dude, you must have joined late in the thread ;) It's about a
hypothetical, novel idea to use Maven not just as a build system, but
also to distribute and manage software. It's not a general criticism of
Maven.
It starts here
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.turbine.maven.user/10502 and
evolved into a discussion of how well Maven is suited for software
distribution and management. The context is that novel idea, not Maven
as it is.
I'm arguing it's not, that it's an inferior solution compared to native
package management and in the case of software management and
distribution it would be beneficial to employ native packages of
artifacts where available. All within the context of that novel idea.
I see that we agree (though you may have misunderstood my intentions),
and I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.
I'm not arguing that Maven is concerned with platform-dependencies, nor
am I arguing that it should be. That's not very necessary in the context
of Maven as a build tool.
But since the novel idea was about software distribution and management,
not developement, I'm arguing with a lot of examples that
platform-dependencies come into play when you deal with software
distribution and management. I also questioned the implied notion of
portability employed by some discutants, presenting real-world proof of
'pure java' not automatically implying being portable across
platforms/runtimes/architectures.
> It is a tool to build java libraries. And to document them. It is not
> concerned with the fact of the resulting library being specific to a
> single platform/architecture or general.
And from all that I can say from using it, it does the job as a build
tool very nicely.
> This may be considered unfortunate, but it's not Maven's mission to
> provide remedy for this situation. There is demand in Java community for
> statically assembled applications, and Maven meets this demand.
I fully agree. In that limited context, using Maven for software
distribution and management makes sense, as all you have are big binary
blobs. But in the context of general software distribution and
management system, which was the novel idea, big binary blobs are not a
great idea. ;)
> I'd certainly love to see Maven running on as many platforms as
> possible, and being as much platform agnostic in the way it operates as
> it is possible.
I agree, and I'm as glad to help with testing, patches and bug reports
as I'be been before.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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Re: Réf. : Re: new idea on maven usage?
Posted by Jason van Zyl <jv...@maven.org>.
On Fri, 2004-02-06 at 11:50, Dalibor Topic wrote:
> Hi Rafal,
>
> Rafal Krzewski wrote:
>
> > ... using massive amounts of bandwidth, and pissing the hell out of
> > certain people.
> >
> > My advice is that you should start a project concerned with running Java
> > software using libraries managed with platform specifc package managers
> > , state your cause there, and go on discussing this with the people that
> > are interested. What you are doing now is an abuse of Maven mailing list
> > IMO.
>
> Thanks for the hint, I'll shut up now.
>
> I'm sorry for abusing the Maven mailing list, I didn't realize that I
> was doing that. I also hope people who have felt offended by my posts
> will accept my public apologies, I certainly didn't mean to harm.
You didn't do any harm and I doubt anyone is offended. We're glad to
know about the efforts of Linux packagers, you just have to understand
that we are primarily interested in having a mechanism that works
indentically across the board on all platforms. As soon as Maven employs
platform specific mechanisms we've lost what we consider to be the most
compelling reason to use Maven.
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>
>
>
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--
jvz.
Jason van Zyl
jason@maven.org
http://maven.apache.org
happiness is like a butterfly: the more you chase it, the more it will
elude you, but if you turn your attention to other things, it will come
and sit softly on your shoulder ...
-- Thoreau
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Re: Réf. : Re: new idea on maven usage?
Posted by Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org>.
Hi Rafal,
Rafal Krzewski wrote:
> ... using massive amounts of bandwidth, and pissing the hell out of
> certain people.
>
> My advice is that you should start a project concerned with running Java
> software using libraries managed with platform specifc package managers
> , state your cause there, and go on discussing this with the people that
> are interested. What you are doing now is an abuse of Maven mailing list
> IMO.
Thanks for the hint, I'll shut up now.
I'm sorry for abusing the Maven mailing list, I didn't realize that I
was doing that. I also hope people who have felt offended by my posts
will accept my public apologies, I certainly didn't mean to harm.
cheers,
dalibor topic
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Re: Réf. : Re: new idea on maven usage?
Posted by Rafal Krzewski <Ra...@caltha.pl>.
Dalibor Topic wrote:
> I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense in *all* contexts, I'm
> arguing that it's not a *silver bullet* in all contexts.
Who told you that Maven is a silver bullet in all contexts?
> My impression
> is that there is a lot of (rightful! it's a cool piece of software)
> excitement, but little discussion of limitations of the new idea, so I'm
> playing an advocatus diaboli in this case ;)
... using massive amounts of bandwidth, and pissing the hell out of
certain people.
My advice is that you should start a project concerned with running Java
software using libraries managed with platform specifc package managers
, state your cause there, and go on discussing this with the people that
are interested. What you are doing now is an abuse of Maven mailing list
IMO.
R.
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Re: Réf. : Re: new idea on maven usage?
Posted by Dalibor Topic <ro...@kaffe.org>.
Hi Olivier,
Olivier CHAMPAGNE wrote:
> Hello,
>
> In my current project (see my previous posts/questions for a light
> description), Maven is still used :
> 1. to build a system (a framework used by end-user's projects) uploaded on
> our intranet
> 2. to distribute and manage "software" during further framework' uses by
> projects from our intranet.
I'm not arguing that there are *no* contexts where using Maven for
software distribution and management makes sense. I've already mentioned
Windows as an example, and a corporate intranet sounds like a
reasonable context, too.
I'm just arguing that as a general solution a centralized repository is
inferior to a native package management solution on some platforms
(mainly Linux) for a variety of reasons.
I'm not arguing that it doesn't make sense in *all* contexts, I'm
arguing that it's not a *silver bullet* in all contexts. My impression
is that there is a lot of (rightful! it's a cool piece of software)
excitement, but little discussion of limitations of the new idea, so I'm
playing an advocatus diaboli in this case ;)
cheers,
dalibor topic
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