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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by Jeanfrancois Arcand <jf...@apache.org> on 2005/11/01 16:11:27 UTC
Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Hi,
Bob Bronson wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I posted
> twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was hoping one of
> you could offer some quick advice on this question.
> ---------------------------------
> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is distributed
> with TC:
>
> <!-- Define the default virtual host
> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
> -->
> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>
>
> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is for?
> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what XML is
> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
Yes it is.
And how does the
> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>
> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
'm using Sun's JDK
> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
Yes it does.
>
> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
> message describing the problem.
Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
>
> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes no
> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
That's a problem. I will take a look.
>
> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is getting
> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing exception,
then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try using
Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
-- Jeanfrancois
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> --
> Bob Bronson
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Posted by Bob Bronson <rb...@yahoo.com>.
Comments below, for any of you who care....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeanfrancois Arcand" <jf...@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
> Hi,
>
> Bob Bronson wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I posted
>> twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was hoping one
>> of you could offer some quick advice on this question.
>> ---------------------------------
>> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
>> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is distributed
>> with TC:
>>
>> <!-- Define the default virtual host
>> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
>> -->
>> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
>> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
>> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>>
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is
>> for?
>> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what XML
>> is
>> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
>
> Yes it is.
>
> And how does the
>> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
>
> You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>
>>
>> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
>
> For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
>
> 'm using Sun's JDK
>> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
>
> Yes it does.
Thanks for the mostly useless reply. I was hoping (silly me) that since
the 'xmlValidation' attribute is completely undocumented
(http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html), one of the
Tomcat programmers could go into more detail about whether it works and
any sublties involved in its use (e.g., any JDK dependecies). Setting
it to 'true' results in a lot of stack traces when validating my simple
web.xml.
Here's something that illustrates the sloppiness of Tomcat programmers:
I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute. What
do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces. This
tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR* that
the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state of
testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>
>>
>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
>> message describing the problem.
>
> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should "blame
on Xerces". That response is a lazy copout which is *SO TYPICAL* of the
arrogant programmers working on open sores projects. I don't blame the
error messages on Xerces, I blame them on lazy, sloppy open sores
Tomcat programmers -- too lazy to test even basic aspects of their
system (like XML validation), too lazy to keep the documentation of
their product up to date, too lazy to GENERATE VALID, MEANINGFUL ERROR
MESSAGES rather than just dumping a stack trace from Xerces, too lazy
to look into any problems that don't interest them. (Hey, they're not
getting paid, why should they bother with things that don't interest
them? -- That seems to be the Open Source Programmer's Manifesto).
>>
>> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes
>> no
>> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
>> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
>
> That's a problem. I will take a look.
>
>>
>> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is
>> getting
>> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
>
> In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing exception,
> then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try using
> Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
>
Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note
or did you just assume the user was at fault???
When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I
am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is
to shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for
"not digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even
fixing the problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact
that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a
day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its
popularity.
Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're right. I'm happy
to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
get what you pay for".
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Posted by Shankar Unni <sh...@netscape.net>.
Bob Bronson wrote:
> Who cares? I'm through w/TC. Good riddence.
Thank goodness.
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Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Posted by Bob Bronson <rb...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
> I'm just guessing here, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this
> post is going to get you a whole lot of help in answering your
> questions.
>
> Maybe it will, I don't know, but I'm thinking not.
>
> Frank
Who cares? I'm through w/TC. Good riddence.
> Bob Bronson wrote:
>> Comments below, for any of you who care....
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanfrancois Arcand"
>> <jf...@apache.org>
>> To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
>> Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM
>> Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Bob Bronson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I
>>>> posted twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was
>>>> hoping one of you could offer some quick advice on this question.
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
>>>> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is
>>>> distributed
>>>> with TC:
>>>>
>>>> <!-- Define the default virtual host
>>>> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
>>>> -->
>>>> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
>>>> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
>>>> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is
>>>> for?
>>>> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what
>>>> XML is
>>>> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it is.
>>>
>>> And how does the
>>>
>>>> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
>>>
>>>
>>> You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
>>>
>>>
>>> For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
>>>
>>> 'm using Sun's JDK
>>>
>>>> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes it does.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the mostly useless reply. I was hoping (silly me) that
>> since
>> the 'xmlValidation' attribute is completely undocumented
>> (http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html), one of
>> the
>> Tomcat programmers could go into more detail about whether it works
>> and
>> any sublties involved in its use (e.g., any JDK dependecies).
>> Setting
>> it to 'true' results in a lot of stack traces when validating my
>> simple
>> web.xml.
>>
>> Here's something that illustrates the sloppiness of Tomcat
>> programmers:
>>
>> I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
>> went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
>> 'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute.
>> What
>> do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces. This
>> tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
>> programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR*
>> that
>> the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
>>
>> The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
>> it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state
>> of
>> testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big
>>>> stack
>>>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice
>>>> error
>>>> message describing the problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should
>> "blame
>> on Xerces". That response is a lazy copout which is *SO TYPICAL* of
>> the
>> arrogant programmers working on open sores projects. I don't blame
>> the
>> error messages on Xerces, I blame them on lazy, sloppy open sores
>> Tomcat programmers -- too lazy to test even basic aspects of their
>> system (like XML validation), too lazy to keep the documentation of
>> their product up to date, too lazy to GENERATE VALID, MEANINGFUL
>> ERROR
>> MESSAGES rather than just dumping a stack trace from Xerces, too
>> lazy
>> to look into any problems that don't interest them. (Hey, they're
>> not
>> getting paid, why should they bother with things that don't interest
>> them? -- That seems to be the Open Source Programmer's Manifesto).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes
>>>> no
>>>> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
>>>> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
>>>
>>>
>>> That's a problem. I will take a look.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is
>>>> getting
>>>> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
>>>
>>>
>>> In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing
>>> exception, then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try
>>> using Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
>> does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my
>> note
>> or did you just assume the user was at fault???
>>
>>
>> When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as
>> I
>> am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer
>> is
>> to shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
>> through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix
>> the
>> bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
>> unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
>> programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for
>> "not digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even
>> fixing the problem themselves by going into the source code. The
>> fact
>> that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a
>> day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its
>> popularity.
>>
>> Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm
>> happy
>> to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage,
>> "you
>> get what you pay for".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I'm just guessing here, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think this post
is going to get you a whole lot of help in answering your questions.
Maybe it will, I don't know, but I'm thinking not.
Frank
Bob Bronson wrote:
> Comments below, for any of you who care....
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanfrancois Arcand"
> <jf...@apache.org>
> To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
> Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM
> Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Bob Bronson wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I posted
>>> twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was hoping one
>>> of you could offer some quick advice on this question.
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
>>> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is distributed
>>> with TC:
>>>
>>> <!-- Define the default virtual host
>>> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
>>> -->
>>> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
>>> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
>>> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>>>
>>>
>>> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is for?
>>> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what XML is
>>> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
>>
>>
>> Yes it is.
>>
>> And how does the
>>
>>> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
>>
>>
>> You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>>
>>>
>>> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
>>
>>
>> For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
>>
>> 'm using Sun's JDK
>>
>>> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
>>
>>
>> Yes it does.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the mostly useless reply. I was hoping (silly me) that since
> the 'xmlValidation' attribute is completely undocumented
> (http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html), one of the
> Tomcat programmers could go into more detail about whether it works and
> any sublties involved in its use (e.g., any JDK dependecies). Setting
> it to 'true' results in a lot of stack traces when validating my simple
> web.xml.
>
> Here's something that illustrates the sloppiness of Tomcat programmers:
>
> I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
> went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
> 'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute. What
> do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces. This
> tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
> programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR* that
> the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
>
> The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
> it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state of
> testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
>>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
>>> message describing the problem.
>>
>>
>> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
>
>
>
>
> You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should "blame
> on Xerces". That response is a lazy copout which is *SO TYPICAL* of the
> arrogant programmers working on open sores projects. I don't blame the
> error messages on Xerces, I blame them on lazy, sloppy open sores
> Tomcat programmers -- too lazy to test even basic aspects of their
> system (like XML validation), too lazy to keep the documentation of
> their product up to date, too lazy to GENERATE VALID, MEANINGFUL ERROR
> MESSAGES rather than just dumping a stack trace from Xerces, too lazy
> to look into any problems that don't interest them. (Hey, they're not
> getting paid, why should they bother with things that don't interest
> them? -- That seems to be the Open Source Programmer's Manifesto).
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes no
>>> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
>>> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
>>
>>
>> That's a problem. I will take a look.
>>
>>>
>>> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is getting
>>> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
>>
>>
>> In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing exception,
>> then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try using
>> Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
>>
>
>
> Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
> does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note
> or did you just assume the user was at fault???
>
>
> When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I
> am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is
> to shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
> through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
> bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
> unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
> programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for
> "not digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even
> fixing the problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact
> that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a
> day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its
> popularity.
>
> Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
> to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
> get what you pay for".
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
Posted by Bob Bronson <rb...@yahoo.com>.
Comments below, for any of you who care....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeanfrancois Arcand" <jf...@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
> Hi,
>
> Bob Bronson wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I posted
>> twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was hoping one
>> of you could offer some quick advice on this question.
>> ---------------------------------
>> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
>> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is distributed
>> with TC:
>>
>> <!-- Define the default virtual host
>> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
>> -->
>> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
>> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
>> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>>
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is
>> for?
>> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what XML
>> is
>> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
>
> Yes it is.
>
> And how does the
>> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
>
> You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>
>>
>> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
>
> For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
>
> 'm using Sun's JDK
>> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
>
> Yes it does.
Thanks for the mostly useless reply. I was hoping (silly me) that since
the 'xmlValidation' attribute is completely undocumented
(http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html), one of the
Tomcat programmers could go into more detail about whether it works and
any sublties involved in its use (e.g., any JDK dependecies). Setting
it to 'true' results in a lot of stack traces when validating my simple
web.xml.
Here's something that illustrates the sloppiness of Tomcat programmers:
I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute. What
do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces. This
tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR* that
the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state of
testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>
>>
>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
>> message describing the problem.
>
> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should "blame
on Xerces". That response is a lazy copout which is *SO TYPICAL* of the
arrogant programmers working on open sores projects. I don't blame the
error messages on Xerces, I blame them on lazy, sloppy open sores
Tomcat programmers -- too lazy to test even basic aspects of their
system (like XML validation), too lazy to keep the documentation of
their product up to date, too lazy to GENERATE VALID, MEANINGFUL ERROR
MESSAGES rather than just dumping a stack trace from Xerces, too lazy
to look into any problems that don't interest them. (Hey, they're not
getting paid, why should they bother with things that don't interest
them? -- That seems to be the Open Source Programmer's Manifesto).
>>
>> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes
>> no
>> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
>> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
>
> That's a problem. I will take a look.
>
>>
>> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is
>> getting
>> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
>
> In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing exception,
> then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try using
> Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
>
Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note
or did you just assume the user was at fault???
When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I
am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is
to shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for
"not digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even
fixing the problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact
that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a
day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its
popularity.
Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
get what you pay for".
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by Jean-frederic Clere <jf...@telefonica.net>.
Bob Bronson wrote:
> Comments below, for any of you who care....
Friendly peoples always care about the needs of other...
+++++++++ CUT ++++++++++
>
>
>
> I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
> went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
> 'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute.
> What do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces.
meaningless... I don't think so. Open a bug in bugzilla so that someone
could think of fixing what is wrong.
> This tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
> programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR*
> that the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
>
> The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
> it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state of
> testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
>>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
>>> message describing the problem.
>>
>>
>> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
>
>
>
>
> You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should
> "blame on Xerces".
Yes, we could blame xerces... Xerces is also in ASF (we are blaming
ourself).
OpenSource works because developers and users are playing togother, not
one against the other.
Unfriendy messages tends to cause unfriendly answer, but keep cool,
report the errors, propose a patch, propose a work-around... Well do
something that helps you.
+++ CUT +++
> The fact that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150
> messages a day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation
> than to its popularity.
Well Tomcat documentation needs _urgent_ improvements.
Cheers
Jean-Frederic
>
>
> Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm
> happy to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old
> adage, "you get what you pay for".
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Costin Manolache wrote:
> Well, my point was - do we really need this feature ?
>
> If nobody is really using it - it doesn't work out of box and we
> didn't see any major complaint except Bob - it may be simpler to just
> remove the flag from the docs and server.xml - and maybe even remove
> the code that does this validation. Or move it to some module that is
> not distributed by default, in case we have 2-3 users.
>
> I believe we no longer include the xerces parser in some of the
> distros - so even a fix in xerces will be useless, users will need to
> upgrade the VM.
>
> It is silly to depend on a very specific parser and version - and keep
> options, code, documentation - for a feature that nobody really uses.
I'd prefer leaving it, and the user, if he's interested in the feature,
will have to find a Xerces build that works (I tested, and the one we
ship in the compat package works fine for all webapps; the one from my
JDK 1.5 has issues though, with the 2.3 webapps).
Don't worry though, we'll deviate from a pure Servlet/JSP server quickly
enough ;)
Rémy
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem)
Posted by Costin Manolache <co...@gmail.com>.
Well, my point was - do we really need this feature ?
If nobody is really using it - it doesn't work out of box and we
didn't see any major complaint except Bob - it may be simpler to just
remove the flag from the docs and server.xml - and maybe even remove
the code that does this validation. Or move it to some module that is
not distributed by default, in case we have 2-3 users.
I believe we no longer include the xerces parser in some of the
distros - so even a fix in xerces will be useless, users will need to
upgrade the VM.
It is silly to depend on a very specific parser and version - and keep
options, code, documentation - for a feature that nobody really uses.
Costin
On 11/4/05, Jeanfrancois Arcand <jf...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> Costin Manolache wrote:
> > I wonder what Bob does when his Windows XP is crashing or catches a virus :-)
> > Well, at least whoever reads the user mail at MSFT is paid for reading
> > his rants, we're not. And they got his money too.
> >
> > As for the 'validate' flag - maybe we should just remove it:
> > - it slows down startup
> > - it is optional in the spec
> > - we know it doesn't work with most parsers, including versions bundled in JDK
> > - the whole schema validation thing is a bad idea anyway.
> >
> > Is anyone really using this flag ?
>
> I think the problem right now is a bug in the web-xml schema:
>
> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=31125
>
> I should have added that link to the response :-) Once this is fixed,
> XML validation should works.
>
> -- Jeanfrancois
>
> >
> > Bob, if you're still on the list - why would you want to turn on this
> > flag ? I never found any use for it ( except to slow down startup and
> > get exceptions ).
> >
> > Costin
> >
> >
> > On 11/4/05, Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>Bob Bronson wrote:
> >>
> >>>Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat does
> >>>not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note or
> >>>did you just assume the user was at fault???
> >>>
> >>>When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I am
> >>>doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is to
> >>>shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
> >>>through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
> >>>bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
> >>>unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
> >>>programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for "not
> >>>digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even fixing the
> >>>problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact that the
> >>>Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a day is more
> >>>a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its popularity.
> >>>
> >>>Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
> >>>to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
> >>>get what you pay for".
> >>
> >>If you don't feel special enough, I can do it in two seconds and can get
> >>you a cool membership to the "dev-deny" list :)
> >>
> >>Rémy
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by Jeanfrancois Arcand <jf...@apache.org>.
Costin Manolache wrote:
> I wonder what Bob does when his Windows XP is crashing or catches a virus :-)
> Well, at least whoever reads the user mail at MSFT is paid for reading
> his rants, we're not. And they got his money too.
>
> As for the 'validate' flag - maybe we should just remove it:
> - it slows down startup
> - it is optional in the spec
> - we know it doesn't work with most parsers, including versions bundled in JDK
> - the whole schema validation thing is a bad idea anyway.
>
> Is anyone really using this flag ?
I think the problem right now is a bug in the web-xml schema:
http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=31125
I should have added that link to the response :-) Once this is fixed,
XML validation should works.
-- Jeanfrancois
>
> Bob, if you're still on the list - why would you want to turn on this
> flag ? I never found any use for it ( except to slow down startup and
> get exceptions ).
>
> Costin
>
>
> On 11/4/05, Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>Bob Bronson wrote:
>>
>>>Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat does
>>>not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note or
>>>did you just assume the user was at fault???
>>>
>>>When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I am
>>>doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is to
>>>shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
>>>through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
>>>bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
>>>unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
>>>programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for "not
>>>digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even fixing the
>>>problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact that the
>>>Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a day is more
>>>a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its popularity.
>>>
>>>Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
>>>to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
>>>get what you pay for".
>>
>>If you don't feel special enough, I can do it in two seconds and can get
>>you a cool membership to the "dev-deny" list :)
>>
>>Rémy
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem)
Posted by Costin Manolache <co...@gmail.com>.
I wonder what Bob does when his Windows XP is crashing or catches a virus :-)
Well, at least whoever reads the user mail at MSFT is paid for reading
his rants, we're not. And they got his money too.
As for the 'validate' flag - maybe we should just remove it:
- it slows down startup
- it is optional in the spec
- we know it doesn't work with most parsers, including versions bundled in JDK
- the whole schema validation thing is a bad idea anyway.
Is anyone really using this flag ?
Bob, if you're still on the list - why would you want to turn on this
flag ? I never found any use for it ( except to slow down startup and
get exceptions ).
Costin
On 11/4/05, Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> Bob Bronson wrote:
> > Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat does
> > not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note or
> > did you just assume the user was at fault???
> >
> > When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I am
> > doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is to
> > shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
> > through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
> > bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
> > unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
> > programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for "not
> > digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even fixing the
> > problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact that the
> > Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a day is more
> > a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its popularity.
> >
> > Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
> > to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
> > get what you pay for".
>
> If you don't feel special enough, I can do it in two seconds and can get
> you a cool membership to the "dev-deny" list :)
>
> Rémy
>
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>
>
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Remy Maucherat wrote:
> Bob Bronson wrote:
>
>> Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
>> does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my
>> note or did you just assume the user was at fault???
>>
>> When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I
>> am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is
>> to shift responsibility to the user
Damned straight. Because open source is a community of users, the devs
are users, users are expected to contribute - not demand, and if the end
users see a problem and can fix it (I'm guessing from the brilliance
of your post that it would take you but 2 minutes to fix web.xml) then
post a patch for crissakes and get over it!
Bob - yes, open source is not for you. Go bitch at someone who is paid
to bend over for you, you haven't earned any such privilage here. Didn't
your momma teach you any manners whatsoever?
Bill
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by Ian Darwin <ia...@darwinsys.com>.
> If you don't feel special enough, I can do it in two seconds and can
> get you a cool membership to the "dev-deny" list :)
Maybe we could just filter out yahoo, hotmail and the other free fake
web domains so that people who want to post abusive comments and
use really original insults that we've seen hundreds of times and
demand free development and debugging service would at least have
to use a real email address.
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Re: Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation"
Problem)
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
Bob Bronson wrote:
> Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat does
> not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note or
> did you just assume the user was at fault???
>
> When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I am
> doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is to
> shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
> through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
> bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
> unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
> programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for "not
> digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even fixing the
> problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact that the
> Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a day is more
> a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its popularity.
>
> Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
> to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
> get what you pay for".
If you don't feel special enough, I can do it in two seconds and can get
you a cool membership to the "dev-deny" list :)
Rémy
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Sloppy, Lazy Tomcat Developers (Was: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem)
Posted by Bob Bronson <rb...@yahoo.com>.
Comments below, for any of you who care....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeanfrancois Arcand" <jf...@apache.org>
To: "Tomcat Developers List" <de...@tomcat.apache.org>
Cc: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Persistent "xmlValidation" Problem
> Hi,
>
> Bob Bronson wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Sorry, to bother the developer group with this question but I posted
>> twice on the user group and received zero replies. I was hoping one
>> of you could offer some quick advice on this question.
>> ---------------------------------
>> I'm using TC 5.5.12.
>> Please look at this snippet from the server.xml that is distributed
>> with TC:
>>
>> <!-- Define the default virtual host
>> Note: XML Schema validation will not work with Xerces 2.2.
>> -->
>> <Host name="localhost" appBase="webapps"
>> unpackWARs="true" autoDeploy="true"
>> xmlValidation="false" xmlNamespaceAware="false">
>>
>>
>> Can anyone tell me what the 'xmlValidation' attribute on <Host> is
>> for?
>> I realize it has something to do with "XML validation", but what XML
>> is
>> it referring to? Is it the corresponding web.xml?
>
> Yes it is.
>
> And how does the
>> 'xmlNamespaceAware' attribute fit in?
>
> You can decide to validate with or without namespace.
>
>>
>> And what's the comment about the Xerces 2.2 parser?
>
> For a long time, Xerces was broken/buggy when used in Tomcat.
>
> 'm using Sun's JDK
>> 1.5.0. Does it use Xerces internally?
>
> Yes it does.
Thanks for the mostly useless reply. I was hoping (silly me) that since
the 'xmlValidation' attribute is completely undocumented
(http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html), one of the
Tomcat programmers could go into more detail about whether it works and
any sublties involved in its use (e.g., any JDK dependecies). Setting
it to 'true' results in a lot of stack traces when validating my simple
web.xml.
Here's something that illustrates the sloppiness of Tomcat programmers:
I installed a fresh copy of TC 5.5.12 (using JDK 1.5.0 on Win XP). I
went into the server.xml that is distributed with TC and changed the
'xmlValidation' attribute value to "true" on the <Host> attribute. What
do you think happened? I got tons of meaningless stack traces. This
tells me one of two things -- either the sloppy Tomcat open sores
programmers released an invalid web.xml that doesn't validate *OR* that
the 'xmlValidation' functionality is broken.
The fact that Tomcat 5.5.12 was released with this very basic (admit
it, it's not a subtle issue) problem indicates to me the poor state of
testing the Tomcat programmers must do at a system level.
>
>>
>> When I set the 'xmlValidation' attribute to 'true' I get a big stack
>> trace. One would think it might be appropriate to offer a nice error
>> message describing the problem.
>
> Blame Xerces ;-). XML error are not always easy to discover.
You say that the lousy XML error messages are something I should "blame
on Xerces". That response is a lazy copout which is *SO TYPICAL* of the
arrogant programmers working on open sores projects. I don't blame the
error messages on Xerces, I blame them on lazy, sloppy open sores
Tomcat programmers -- too lazy to test even basic aspects of their
system (like XML validation), too lazy to keep the documentation of
their product up to date, too lazy to GENERATE VALID, MEANINGFUL ERROR
MESSAGES rather than just dumping a stack trace from Xerces, too lazy
to look into any problems that don't interest them. (Hey, they're not
getting paid, why should they bother with things that don't interest
them? -- That seems to be the Open Source Programmer's Manifesto).
>>
>> I've looked at the latest TC documentation for <Host> and it makes
>> no
>> mention of the 'xmlValidation' attribute:
>> http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/config/host.html
>
> That's a problem. I will take a look.
>
>>
>> Can someone please explain these two attributes? My web.xml is
>> getting
>> unwieldy and I'd like to start validating it.
>
> In short, set those two values to true. If you are seeing exception,
> then it means your web.xml is not properly written. Try using
> Netbeans/Eclipse (or any IDE). It is much more easy.
>
Another lazy copout!! Even the web.xml that is distributed w/Tomcat
does not validate! Did you even test this before you replied to my note
or did you just assume the user was at fault???
When someone criticizes the poor state of an open sores project (as I
am doing now), the typical response from the open sores programmer is
to shift responsibility to the user -- the user is often told to dig
through the change logs or browse the forum archives or even to fix the
bug/documentation themselves instead of "complaining". What an
unprofessional, lazy attitude from programmers! The open sores
programmers try to cast *their* laziness as the user's laziness for
"not digging deeply enough" to resolve their own problem, or even
fixing the problem themselves by going into the source code. The fact
that the Tomcat User mailing list often receives over 150 messages a
day is more a testament to Tomcat's crappy documentation than to its
popularity.
Yes, yes, I know Tomcat is "not for me". You're damned right. I'm happy
to pay money for quality. I guess Tomcat bares out the old adage, "you
get what you pay for".
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