Re: [Issue 943] Changed - svn prop* should be able to operate on URLs

[Eric Gillespie <ep...@pretzelnet.org>]

> + ------- Additional Comments From kfogel@tigris.org  2002-10-28 08:21 PST --
> + I've put this in Post-1.0, as it's an improved interface to
> + functionality that people can already get via their working copies.
> + (Glad to see it done before 1.0, of course.)

Users do stupid things even with well-designed, unconfusing
interfaces.  Bugs like this make the lives of those of us
supporting these people harder than they already are.  That's why
i raised the issue twice before.  When Ben Collins-Sussman
suggested that i file this issue the way it is, i was reluctant
to conflate the two issues, but went along anyway.

Frankly, i don't care about operation on URLs, but the
inconsistency is a real problem.

> + Just my $0.02: I think the subtle difference in -r behavior with the
> + prop* commands versus other commands is okay.  Yes, it is
> + inconsistent, but in practice I'll bet few people get confused.

I find it interesting that you acknowledge that the difference is
a subtle one but nevertheless think most users will have no
problem seeing and understanding the difference.

--  
Eric Gillespie <*> epg@pretzelnet.org

Build a fire for a man, and he'll be warm for a day.  Set a man on
fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. -Terry Pratchett

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Re: [Issue 943] Changed - svn prop* should be able to operate on URLs

[Gareth McCaughan <Ga...@pobox.com>]

Karl Fogel wrote:

[Eric Gillespie:]
> > I find it interesting that you acknowledge that the difference is
> > a subtle one but nevertheless think most users will have no
> > problem seeing and understanding the difference.
>
> Well, clearly by "subtle" I must have meant something subtly
> different from what you understood it to mean :-).
>
> By "subtle", I mean that for a person thinking concentratedly about
> this aspect of the interface, the difference between -r and without
> -r is non-trivial to explain.  But that doesn't mean it's hard for
> users to learn, since learning happens in a different way than
> articulation. For example, if you try to explain rectangular mouse
> highlighting in words, it can sound quite complex -- yet people do
> it with no trouble.

"The set of characters selected consists of those whose bounding boxes
lie within a rectangle with one corner at the location where the
mouse drag began, and the opposite corner at the location where
the mouse drag ended. Operations on this selection work on a
virtual document consisting of just the selected characters;
when a line changes in length, material to the right of the
selected part of that line moves left or right accordingly." Doesn't
sound significantly harder to explain than ordinary highlighting
to me.

That's a digression, though. I think the statement "learning happens
in a different way than articulation" is more true for some people
than for others. For some, articulation is a vital stage in learning,
and difficulty in expressing what's going on precisely translates
directly into difficulty in learning.

I'm making no comment on the particular instance that's at issue
here, because I haven't looked at it at all. Just observing that,
in general, if something is subtle in Karl's sense then it is likely
to be harder for *some* people to learn.

-- 
g

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Re: [Issue 943] Changed - svn prop* should be able to operate on URLs

[Karl Fogel <kf...@newton.ch.collab.net>]

Eric Gillespie <ep...@pretzelnet.org> writes:
> > + Just my $0.02: I think the subtle difference in -r behavior with the
> > + prop* commands versus other commands is okay.  Yes, it is
> > + inconsistent, but in practice I'll bet few people get confused.
> 
> I find it interesting that you acknowledge that the difference is
> a subtle one but nevertheless think most users will have no
> problem seeing and understanding the difference.

Well, clearly by "subtle" I must have meant something subtly different
from what you understood it to mean :-).

By "subtle", I mean that for a person thinking concentratedly about
this aspect of the interface, the difference between -r and without -r
is non-trivial to explain.  But that doesn't mean it's hard for users
to learn, since learning happens in a different way than articulation.
For example, if you try to explain rectangular mouse highlighting in
words, it can sound quite complex -- yet people do it with no trouble.

There's no contradiction here.  If you're looking for evidence that
the interface is going to confuse users, my use of the word "subtle"
to describe it is not such evidence.

> Users do stupid things even with well-designed, unconfusing
> interfaces.  Bugs like this make the lives of those of us
> supporting these people harder than they already are.  That's why
> i raised the issue twice before.  When Ben Collins-Sussman
> suggested that i file this issue the way it is, i was reluctant
> to conflate the two issues, but went along anyway.
> 
> Frankly, i don't care about operation on URLs, but the
> inconsistency is a real problem.

Sure; agree they are two separate issues, and happy to discuss the one
that concerns you.  Did the interface confuse you or someone you know?
Are there some scenarios you can posit where it will confuse someone
and that will result in lossage?

(Btw, this is not yet an issue to be filed, because not everyone
agrees it is an issue.  Let's have the discussion on the dev list, not
in the issue tracker.)

-K

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