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Posted to women@apache.org by Danese Cooper <da...@gmail.com> on 2005/08/28 17:27:13 UTC
Topics for discussion?
Thanks to the publicity we recently got we've seen a huge influx of
subscription requests. Not much actual discussion is taking place
yet, however ;-).
In the meantime and until the new requests stabilize a bit, perhaps
we could start with:
"What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
Some of the newbies have covered this in their self-
introductions....others have not.
For myself, I joined Jean in proposing this list to see whether or
not some of the methods used on other women@ lists might also work at
Apache to attract and retain more female contributors. I'm hoping
that this list population will also help come up with Apache new
methods, which we can share back to help other projects.
Hopefully in response to this email we'll get some discussion going
about goals and expectations...
Danese
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote:
>
>> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> ...
>>> I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
>>> projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
>>> ApacheCon.
>>
>>
>> I'd like to learn how to make an Open Source community more
>> "welcoming" to women *without* using any form of positive
>> discrimination. I suspect I will be a lurker most of the time whilst I
>> "listen and learn" (don't worry, I will speak up if I have something
>> to ask/add).
>
>
> You got my curiousity, Ross, what sorts of positive discrimination are a
> concern?
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that there is any positive
discrimination in Apache. I'm not even saying that I have ever heard
that there should be.
My statement was meant to be that, in my opinion, positive
discrimination should not be necessary. I want to learn how to improve
the number of women in the ASF without resorting to such tactics. I
suspect that in order to do this I will have to change my own behaviour
a little, and, even more importantly, understand the problems of women
trying to break into this predominantly male environment.
> Offhand, I'd include "quota systems" on the list of things I think
> should be avoided.
I totally agree.
...
> Another example: Apache has a strong merit-based approach to granting
> karma that works well. It would be completely silly to say "Oh! Since
> she's a woman, let's make her a committer and increase the % women
> committers at Apache." I couldn't ever agree with that approach.
Yes, that was the kind of thing I was thinking of.
> Instead, a positive strategy for increasing women contributors and
> committers at Apache is to help women, in a welcoming environment,
> understand the ASF and how to do things at Apache.
Yes, and that is something that should be given merit as part of the
normal meritocracy. SO in fact, the first women that come along may find
it easier to become committers simply because they are women and can
help guide other women who come later.
It is a very fine balance I think. Currently I have no idea where the
balance lies. I hope this list will help me to get the balance right.
Ross
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Ross Gardler wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>> ...
>> I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
>> projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
>> ApacheCon.
>
> I'd like to learn how to make an Open Source community more "welcoming"
> to women *without* using any form of positive discrimination. I suspect
> I will be a lurker most of the time whilst I "listen and learn" (don't
> worry, I will speak up if I have something to ask/add).
You got my curiousity, Ross, what sorts of positive discrimination are a
concern?
Offhand, I'd include "quota systems" on the list of things I think
should be avoided.
For example, even though I'm personally interested in increasing the
number of women attending ApacheCon, I wouldn't agree with a quota
system that attempted to achieve "N% women ApacheCon participants". I
think attendance figures will naturally follow increased participation
on Apache projects.
Another example: Apache has a strong merit-based approach to granting
karma that works well. It would be completely silly to say "Oh! Since
she's a woman, let's make her a committer and increase the % women
committers at Apache." I couldn't ever agree with that approach.
Instead, a positive strategy for increasing women contributors and
committers at Apache is to help women, in a welcoming environment,
understand the ASF and how to do things at Apache.
-jean
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> Danese Cooper wrote:
>
>> Thanks to the publicity we recently got we've seen a huge influx of
>> subscription requests. Not much actual discussion is taking place
>> yet, however ;-).
>>
>> In the meantime and until the new requests stabilize a bit, perhaps
>> we could start with:
>>
>> "What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
>>
>
> I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
> projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
> ApacheCon.
I'd like to learn how to make an Open Source community more "welcoming"
to women *without* using any form of positive discrimination. I suspect
I will be a lurker most of the time whilst I "listen and learn" (don't
worry, I will speak up if I have something to ask/add).
Ross
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by susan wu <su...@arctic.org>.
I'll be at ApacheCon, and I very much look forward to meeting you all.
The PRC will be hosting a BoF around Open Source Marketing & How the PMCs
can leverage us. (It needs a better title!)
-Susan
--
http://feather.planetapache.org
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Brian McCallister wrote:
>
> On Oct 28, 2005, at 2:10 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> What else goes on at the hackathon?
>
> Lots of socializing in a less crowded atmosphere than the conference
> proper. Lots of idea trampolining. Lots of exposure to what other
> projects are doing and cross-fertilization. Lots of recruiting to come
> help on those interesting projects =)
>
> Hackathons have been the most fun part, imho, of the ApacheCons I have
> been to.
And don't forget - free beer! Free! As in, err, beer!
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
On Oct 28, 2005, at 2:10 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> What else goes on at the hackathon?
Lots of socializing in a less crowded atmosphere than the conference
proper. Lots of idea trampolining. Lots of exposure to what other
projects are doing and cross-fertilization. Lots of recruiting to
come help on those interesting projects =)
Hackathons have been the most fun part, imho, of the ApacheCons I
have been to.
-Brian
>
> -jean
>
>
>
>
>
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
On October 15, 2005, Ben Laurie wrote:
> Jean T. Anderson wrote:
>
>> I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
>> projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
>> ApacheCon.
>>
>> I've mentioned to a number of people that I counted 8 women at
>> ApacheCon Europe in July out of 350 attendees. Last November at
>> ApacheCon US I estimated there were about 20 women out of 600 attendees.
>>
>> ApacheCon US 2005 will be in San Diego, California, from Dec 10-14;
>> see http://www.apachecon.com/2005/US/ . Start planning now!
>
>
> Don't forget there's also the Hackathon on the 10th and 11th -
> committers are welcome to invite anyone they want to it. And it isn't
> just about writing code.
What else goes on at the hackathon?
-jean
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
> projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
> ApacheCon.
>
> I've mentioned to a number of people that I counted 8 women at ApacheCon
> Europe in July out of 350 attendees. Last November at ApacheCon US I
> estimated there were about 20 women out of 600 attendees.
>
> ApacheCon US 2005 will be in San Diego, California, from Dec 10-14; see
> http://www.apachecon.com/2005/US/ . Start planning now!
Don't forget there's also the Hackathon on the 10th and 11th -
committers are welcome to invite anyone they want to it. And it isn't
just about writing code.
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by "Jean T. Anderson" <jt...@bristowhill.com>.
Danese Cooper wrote:
> Thanks to the publicity we recently got we've seen a huge influx of
> subscription requests. Not much actual discussion is taking place yet,
> however ;-).
>
> In the meantime and until the new requests stabilize a bit, perhaps we
> could start with:
>
> "What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
>
I'm hoping that an increase in the number of women active on Apache
projects will result in an increase in the number of women attending
ApacheCon.
I've mentioned to a number of people that I counted 8 women at ApacheCon
Europe in July out of 350 attendees. Last November at ApacheCon US I
estimated there were about 20 women out of 600 attendees.
ApacheCon US 2005 will be in San Diego, California, from Dec 10-14; see
http://www.apachecon.com/2005/US/ . Start planning now!
I'm definitely going and I would encourage anyone else to go as well.
It's a fabulous opportunity to meet others using/developing the same
software. Since participants on a given project are spread out all over
the globe, it's also a rare opportunity to get everyone in one timezone.
It's also a terrific way to get a quick glimpse of the many Apache projects.
So come thaw out in sunny San Diego in December!
-jean
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Anne Thomas Manes <at...@gmail.com>.
On 8/29/05, Julie Bovee Hill <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 8/28/05, Danese Cooper wrote:
> > Thanks to the publicity we recently got we've seen a huge influx of
> > subscription requests. Not much actual discussion is taking place
> > yet, however ;-).
> >
> > In the meantime and until the new requests stabilize a bit, perhaps
> > we could start with:
> >
> > "What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
>
> * learn more about Apache
> * learn how to participate in a project
> * learn lots of kewl new things from other contributors
>
> The tough part, at least from my point of view, is how to get started.
> Specifically for Apache, what's the most common path taken? Does it
> vary substantially among the various projects and persons involved?
> Perhaps some of you who are more experienced could give a brief
> discussion on how you first became involved. Did you submit a patch,
> did a friend or co-worker bring you in, did you lurk around on mailing
> lists until an opportunity arose? (I could probably ask a thousand
> more questions, thanks for your patience :-)
>
> <snip>
>
> Julie
Just do it.
As for me, I started tuning in to the Apache SOAP and Apache Axis lists to
get a feel for the community and to understand the issues that people are
having using web services. (I'm a reseach analyst with Burton Group.)
I'm not a developer, so I don't contribute code, but I do have a lot of
knowledge about the web services framework. So I answer questions.
Anne
Re: Getting involved (was Re: Topics for discussion?)
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Thanks Julie! Personally, I love it when folks come in and answer those
4 or 5 nagging user questions that are just about to fall off the
attention span of the list. (In the past, that was me, mostly because
I'm a QE person in my dark past and I couldn't stand unanswered questions).
Answer a few more questions if you have time - it really helps. Heck,
ask a question too!
(was that a good pep talk? 8-)
Sorry - sometimes I've been doing this sooooo long I forget what it's
like when you're first breaking in, so I hope I'm providing useful
advice. And I feel quite lost myself these days with how large the ASF
has grown.
- Shane
who started with the creation of xml.apache.org
Julie Bovee Hill wrote:
> I
> took your advice to heart yesterday, and managed to answer a whopping
> 4 questions on a forum I watch. Whoopee :-) Still, I took a
> conservative approach and stuck to questions that others were letting
> slip through without an answer. I suppose I'll get more courageous as
> time goes by.
Re: Getting involved (was Re: Topics for discussion?)
Posted by Kathey Marsden <km...@sbcglobal.net>.
For Derby I did a brief write up a while ago on how to get started.
It lives in DERY-257 right now.
http://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DERBY-257
In general there are always lots of low risk, high value tasks to be
done especially in the quality area, and they are all great ways to
learn and add value. All can be sized to suit your time requirements,
for example.
Write Tests for an Upcoming Feature
Test the Documentation
Answer User Questions
Add Functional Tests
Apply, Test and Review Patches
Cleanup and Expand Javadoc
Many of the specific bug recommendations are out of date, but I hope it
is otherwise helpful and someone who finds it to be will pick up DERBY-257.
Kathey
Re: Getting involved (was Re: Topics for discussion?)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Julie Bovee Hill wrote:
> I
> took your advice to heart yesterday, and managed to answer a whopping
> 4 questions on a forum I watch. Whoopee :-)
:-))
It was painles too, I'll bet ;-)
Congratulations, you just made a very valuable contibution to that forum
and it is now a healthier place.
> It's funny, at work I have absolutely no qualms about speaking up,
> whether right or wrong, but when faced with an open source group where
> there aren't any familiar faces, I tend to go the polite route and
> quietly wait around. I've been thinking about that, and when I was a
> child and my mom drilled into my head to wait to be invited (to go out
> and play, etc.). "Don't invite yourself", she always said. That early
> training probably has something to do with my reluctance to just jump
> in and start helping with something, silly though it may be.
I see your point, how about thinking of an open question to a list being
an open invitation to everyone to speak (actually that is exactly what
it is).
Ross
Re: Getting involved (was Re: Topics for discussion?)
Posted by Julie Bovee Hill <jo...@gmail.com>.
Hi Ross,
Thanks, this is really helpful!
On 8/30/05, Ross Gardler wrote:
> I recently wrote a mail for our project on just this subject. As a
> result of the discussion one of our new arrivals took the time to turn
> it into a draft document for our website.
>
> Different projects do vary their approach a little, but this document is
> general enough to serve as a good starting point. You will find all
> projects work in the same way as descirbed in that document. See
> http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
Nicely written doc, thanks.
<snip>
>
> My story:
>
> I lurked for a long time on various Open Source lists. I felt everyone
> there knew far more than I did and I recognised that by reading the
> archives I was learning and absorbing much information.
I know the feeling.
>
> I used this informaiton in my work, both through the use of the Open
> Source software (here hat Apache it was Cocoon), and through the use of
> more general lessons about coding, documenting and, perhaps suprisingly,
> project management.
>
> One day a user posted a question I knew the answer to. So I responded,
> my first post to an Apache list. The use thanked me and I felt very
> proud, I'd managed to give something back.
I tend to assume that even though I know the answer, others probably
can answer it better than I can, so I sit back and politely wait. I
took your advice to heart yesterday, and managed to answer a whopping
4 questions on a forum I watch. Whoopee :-) Still, I took a
conservative approach and stuck to questions that others were letting
slip through without an answer. I suppose I'll get more courageous as
time goes by.
It's funny, at work I have absolutely no qualms about speaking up,
whether right or wrong, but when faced with an open source group where
there aren't any familiar faces, I tend to go the polite route and
quietly wait around. I've been thinking about that, and when I was a
child and my mom drilled into my head to wait to be invited (to go out
and play, etc.). "Don't invite yourself", she always said. That early
training probably has something to do with my reluctance to just jump
in and start helping with something, silly though it may be. Now I'm
wondering if that's a common experience among women, or was I just
unusually warped by my parents? and I also wonder how much that could
be a generational thing and maybe younger women are less likely to
have experienced it?
<snip>
> Yes, I would like to hear more about these approaches. At Apache Forrest
> we have our first "Forrest Tuesday" on Sept 6th
> (http://forrest.apache.org/forrest-tuesday.html ) and have been
> experimenting with the "mentor" approach as a result of the recent
> Google Summer of Code initiative. These are experiments at present,
> lessons learnt from your lurking on Debian lists may help us avoid some
> mistakes.
"Forrest Tuesday" sounds like a great idea, I hope it's successful.
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Julie
Getting involved (was Re: Topics for discussion?)
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@apache.org>.
Julie Bovee Hill wrote:
> On 8/28/05, Danese Cooper wrote:
...
>>"What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
>
>
> * learn more about Apache
> * learn how to participate in a project
> * learn lots of kewl new things from other contributors
>
> The tough part, at least from my point of view, is how to get started.
> Specifically for Apache, what's the most common path taken? Does it
> vary substantially among the various projects and persons involved?
I recently wrote a mail for our project on just this subject. As a
result of the discussion one of our new arrivals took the time to turn
it into a draft document for our website.
Different projects do vary their approach a little, but this document is
general enough to serve as a good starting point. You will find all
projects work in the same way as descirbed in that document. See
http://forrest.apache.org/committed.html
If anyone has any comments on this document I will be sure to
incorporate them (better still provide a patch, but you may not know how
yet, so discussion is a good start).
> Perhaps some of you who are more experienced could give a brief
> discussion on how you first became involved. Did you submit a patch,
> did a friend or co-worker bring you in, did you lurk around on mailing
> lists until an opportunity arose? (I could probably ask a thousand
> more questions, thanks for your patience :-)
My story:
I lurked for a long time on various Open Source lists. I felt everyone
there knew far more than I did and I recognised that by reading the
archives I was learning and absorbing much information.
I used this informaiton in my work, both through the use of the Open
Source software (here hat Apache it was Cocoon), and through the use of
more general lessons about coding, documenting and, perhaps suprisingly,
project management.
One day a user posted a question I knew the answer to. So I responded,
my first post to an Apache list. The use thanked me and I felt very
proud, I'd managed to give something back.
My posts to the user list increased, but I still felt I could not help
with the coding, I simply wasn't "good enough".
Around this time I got involved with the Krysalis Community Project.
This was intended to be kind of unofficial Apache Incubator (this was
prior to the start of the real Apache Incubator and is no longer
active). Because this was a smaller community I felt more confident
speaking up on their lists. I did so and soon found I was contributing
documentation and code to one of their projects. As a result I was given
committership.
At this time the Apache Forrest project was starting, this was a
specific applicaiton of Forrest that I felt I could contribute to.
Again, it was a smaller community, more tightly focussed on things I
knew about as part of my normal work. Before long I was documenting and
contributing code there as well.
In summary:
- smaller communities are less "scary" - but once you jump in the big
communities are just as welcoming
- helping users gives a gentle introduction to community discussion
- writing docs gets you noticed
- writing docs is very important (and gets you noticed) - repeated
because this is by far the *easiest* way into Open Source Development
and is very much appreciated because we don't have enough people who do
this
- code is important, but the health of the community is more important
> As for methods, I admit that I'm a lurker on Debian-women. I lurk
> because I'm not currently a Debian user so I don't have a good way to
> contribute. In spite of not participating, I think I've learned a lot
> from them; and they've done some very interesting things, including
> holding day-long bug-fixing events, giving tutorials via irc, and
> matching newbies up with mentors. These techniques may or may not work
> at Apache, but maybe their merits are worth discussing at some point.
> <snip>
Yes, I would like to hear more about these approaches. At Apache Forrest
we have our first "Forrest Tuesday" on Sept 6th
(http://forrest.apache.org/forrest-tuesday.html ) and have been
experimenting with the "mentor" approach as a result of the recent
Google Summer of Code initiative. These are experiments at present,
lessons learnt from your lurking on Debian lists may help us avoid some
mistakes.
Ross
Re: Topics for discussion?
Posted by Julie Bovee Hill <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 8/28/05, Danese Cooper wrote:
> Thanks to the publicity we recently got we've seen a huge influx of
> subscription requests. Not much actual discussion is taking place
> yet, however ;-).
>
> In the meantime and until the new requests stabilize a bit, perhaps
> we could start with:
>
> "What would you like to get out of participation on this list?"
* learn more about Apache
* learn how to participate in a project
* learn lots of kewl new things from other contributors
The tough part, at least from my point of view, is how to get started.
Specifically for Apache, what's the most common path taken? Does it
vary substantially among the various projects and persons involved?
Perhaps some of you who are more experienced could give a brief
discussion on how you first became involved. Did you submit a patch,
did a friend or co-worker bring you in, did you lurk around on mailing
lists until an opportunity arose? (I could probably ask a thousand
more questions, thanks for your patience :-)
>
> Some of the newbies have covered this in their self-
> introductions....others have not.
>
> For myself, I joined Jean in proposing this list to see whether or
> not some of the methods used on other women@ lists might also work at
> Apache to attract and retain more female contributors. I'm hoping
> that this list population will also help come up with Apache new
> methods, which we can share back to help other projects.
As for methods, I admit that I'm a lurker on Debian-women. I lurk
because I'm not currently a Debian user so I don't have a good way to
contribute. In spite of not participating, I think I've learned a lot
from them; and they've done some very interesting things, including
holding day-long bug-fixing events, giving tutorials via irc, and
matching newbies up with mentors. These techniques may or may not work
at Apache, but maybe their merits are worth discussing at some point.
<snip>
Julie