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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> on 2011/07/24 14:25:45 UTC
OpenOffice.org branding
I have a couple of questions with regard the ownership and legal
position with regards the gift of the OpenOffice.org trademarks from
Oracle.
There has been some pressure to change the name.
Apache Policy states the name of the project will be prefaced by Apache.
Does this also have to apply to the product? ie; if the project is
called Apache OpenOffice is it possible then to still use the
trademarked name? ie OpenOffice.org
The gift of the trademark on "OpenOffice.org" is worth a considerable
amount, does Apache have the resources to register another trademark if
the decision is made to change the name.
Does Apache have an agreement with the Apache Tribal Nation to use the
name on globally marketed consumer products.
Cheers and thanks in advance
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 14:20 -0700, William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
> On 7/26/2011 1:50 PM, Graham Lauder wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:26 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >>
> >> Trademarks simply are not my area of expertise.
> >
> > Fair enough, I've sent a mail to trademarks@. With a little luck they'll
> > be able to clarify. The one thing that we have onside is that "Apache"
> > has been used by others: Boeing obviously for the helicopter and an
> > offshore power boat manufacturer over which there was a Federal court
> > battle for ownership of the TM. That was with another boat manufacturer
> > however. Boeing use is obviously very high profile but I haven't been
> > able to find any mention of them having any deal with the Apache Tribal
> > Nation over it's use.
>
> Disclosure: IANAL and Tradmarks are not my area, either.
>
> But you clearly are missing one very important aspect of Trademark law
> here, a Mark is claimed or granted within a specific business/industry,
> etc. Bass brewing company did not seek to brand either fish or musical
> performance. They branded a beer. That didn't stop bass instruments
> from sharing the same word.
>
> The helicopter has nothing whatsoever to do with creation of open source
> software. Now if you are talking about motorized vehicles (or vehicle
> motors) that might be traipsing into similar purposes, but we don't
> brew beer or build motors here.
>
> It does not matter if others have dissimilar products called "Apache"
> or if we invented the word; this entire train of discussion is entirely
> irrelevant to the subject of the OpenOffice.org mark.
It's not about trademarking similarity, that has nothing to do with it.
It is about using the IP of an indigenous peoples without
acknowledgement or permission. This may not be a problem in the US so
we need not worry about it, but it has been an issue elsewhere
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_intellectual_property#Examples_of_Indigenous_peoples_defending_their_intellectual_property
You will note that a consortium of Apache Tribes has taken action
against a number of American Museums over other IP issues. Maori have
sought to protect the name "Maori". Native Americans have attended
Indigenous Peoples Conferences here in NZ and seen Maori activism in
action. It's not a huge shift to think that an Apache consortium could
take a leaf out of their book.
To me, there are two options: a) Seek permission or b) stay with the
status quo and keep fingers crossed that it won't be an issue.
As far as I'm concerned it's neither here nor there and frankly from a
Marketing POV I'd go with "b", brand the product "ApacheOffice" and hope
that they came after us. Any publicity is good for brand
recognition. :)
Cheers
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
It might (or might not) be worth airing the meta-narrative to dismiss it here.
Step 1: Voices are heard opining that the Apache Open Office project
should brand its product, "Apache Open Office". Whether or not that's
a good idea on the merits belongs on the project's list and the
trademark list.
Step 2: Someone thinks to themselves, 'It would be rather sad if a
giant amount of work went into rebranding, only to have it result in
an conflict with the duly constituted representatives of a population
of Native Americans.
Step 3: this thread here.
As per Bill's message, such a conflict would not be about Trademarks
under US law. As per Ted's message, the whole idea reflects a rather
clichéd view of the history and identity of the Native American groups
in question. Just to put one more cork into this bottle, I'll point
out that, while the Apache Httpd may not be quite as conspicuous as
Open Office, it's quite conspicuous, and has been around for many
years. Not to mention the cumulative public visibility of Apache
Everything Else. The Foundation is careful to use the name
respectfully (no team mascot images here), and life goes on.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@apache.org>.
On 7/26/2011 1:50 PM, Graham Lauder wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:26 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>> Trademarks simply are not my area of expertise.
>
> Fair enough, I've sent a mail to trademarks@. With a little luck they'll
> be able to clarify. The one thing that we have onside is that "Apache"
> has been used by others: Boeing obviously for the helicopter and an
> offshore power boat manufacturer over which there was a Federal court
> battle for ownership of the TM. That was with another boat manufacturer
> however. Boeing use is obviously very high profile but I haven't been
> able to find any mention of them having any deal with the Apache Tribal
> Nation over it's use.
Disclosure: IANAL and Tradmarks are not my area, either.
But you clearly are missing one very important aspect of Trademark law
here, a Mark is claimed or granted within a specific business/industry,
etc. Bass brewing company did not seek to brand either fish or musical
performance. They branded a beer. That didn't stop bass instruments
from sharing the same word.
The helicopter has nothing whatsoever to do with creation of open source
software. Now if you are talking about motorized vehicles (or vehicle
motors) that might be traipsing into similar purposes, but we don't
brew beer or build motors here.
It does not matter if others have dissimilar products called "Apache"
or if we invented the word; this entire train of discussion is entirely
irrelevant to the subject of the OpenOffice.org mark.
If you are aware of uses of "Apache" to describe non-ASF software, bring
those to the attention of trademarks@apache.org.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Wed, 2011-07-27 at 09:51 -0700, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:59 AM, Graham Lauder wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:53 -0700, Ted Dunning wrote:
> >> As I mentioned in separate email, there isn't an Apache Tribal Nation.
> >> There is a Navajo nation, but the rest of the southern Athabascans
> >> known as Apaches are divided into many tribes.
> >
> > Indeed, that was obvious from the research I did, however the same is
> > true of Maori and amongst them, there are different dialects and
> > traditions. I have been trying to get a Maori Native Language Project
> > going for OOo for a number of years, but the differences have prevented
> > getting a single translation sorted. However when something affects
> > Maori as a whole there is very strong unity in protecting those things
> > they see as being representative of their cultural identity and they
> > have used IP law effectively in this.
> >
> >
> >> What you are saying is akin to talking about Spanish-speaking South
> >> America or German-speaking Europe as a country. They just aren't.
> >> And the Apache Nation isn't.
> >>
> > Then that is to our advantage, though I have noted some combined
> > activism on some fronts, and some groups that represent themselves as
> > "Apache Tribal Nation", let's hope my wariness is unjustified.
>
> Hi Graham,
>
> I am Maori (Raukawa / Ngati Huri), so I am aware of your concerns.
> Sorry I can't help with a translation -- I was raised in California.
Tena koe Roy
Darn, you had me all excited there for a moment! :)
>
> We were also fully aware of those concerns when we chose the name Apache
> back in 1995.
>
> Please understand that "Apache" is the Navajo word for "enemy". It is not
> the name that the various Indé tribes that the US Government called Apache
> use to refer to themselves other than in a historical sense, nor is such a
> name considered "intellectual property" just because it is associated by
> one group of people with some other group of people.
Excellent
>
> Of course, none of that will stop some loonies from claiming they have
> the right to represent "Apache". It simply isn't a legal or moral concern
> in the US, since we have always used the name with respect and the folks
> who actually do represent the native american tribes know their real names.
Yes well we know about that sort of idiocy down here as well, thanks for
that Roy, much appreciated, I now know where stand.
>
> BTW, my personal preference is to call our product Apache OOo and leave the
> OpenOffice.org website as a joint forum and redistribution site for all
> variations of the suite, docs, tutorials, etc. However, such decisions
> are typically made by the people doing the work.
It will be an interesting discussion, I'm torn I must admit, The old OOo
guy in me wants everything to stay the same, but the marketer in me is
bouncing about wanting a new toy to play with! :)
Cheers
GL
>
> Cheers,
>
> ....Roy T. Fielding, Director, The Apache Software Foundation
> (fielding@apache.org) <http://www.apache.org/>
> (fielding@gbiv.com) <http://roy.gbiv.com/>
>
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jul 27, 2011, at 3:59 AM, Graham Lauder wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:53 -0700, Ted Dunning wrote:
>> As I mentioned in separate email, there isn't an Apache Tribal Nation.
>> There is a Navajo nation, but the rest of the southern Athabascans
>> known as Apaches are divided into many tribes.
>
> Indeed, that was obvious from the research I did, however the same is
> true of Maori and amongst them, there are different dialects and
> traditions. I have been trying to get a Maori Native Language Project
> going for OOo for a number of years, but the differences have prevented
> getting a single translation sorted. However when something affects
> Maori as a whole there is very strong unity in protecting those things
> they see as being representative of their cultural identity and they
> have used IP law effectively in this.
>
>
>> What you are saying is akin to talking about Spanish-speaking South
>> America or German-speaking Europe as a country. They just aren't.
>> And the Apache Nation isn't.
>>
> Then that is to our advantage, though I have noted some combined
> activism on some fronts, and some groups that represent themselves as
> "Apache Tribal Nation", let's hope my wariness is unjustified.
Hi Graham,
I am Maori (Raukawa / Ngati Huri), so I am aware of your concerns.
Sorry I can't help with a translation -- I was raised in California.
We were also fully aware of those concerns when we chose the name Apache
back in 1995.
Please understand that "Apache" is the Navajo word for "enemy". It is not
the name that the various Indé tribes that the US Government called Apache
use to refer to themselves other than in a historical sense, nor is such a
name considered "intellectual property" just because it is associated by
one group of people with some other group of people.
Of course, none of that will stop some loonies from claiming they have
the right to represent "Apache". It simply isn't a legal or moral concern
in the US, since we have always used the name with respect and the folks
who actually do represent the native american tribes know their real names.
BTW, my personal preference is to call our product Apache OOo and leave the
OpenOffice.org website as a joint forum and redistribution site for all
variations of the suite, docs, tutorials, etc. However, such decisions
are typically made by the people doing the work.
Cheers,
....Roy T. Fielding, Director, The Apache Software Foundation
(fielding@apache.org) <http://www.apache.org/>
(fielding@gbiv.com) <http://roy.gbiv.com/>
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:53 -0700, Ted Dunning wrote:
> As I mentioned in separate email, there isn't an Apache Tribal Nation.
> There is a Navajo nation, but the rest of the southern Athabascans
> known as Apaches are divided into many tribes.
Indeed, that was obvious from the research I did, however the same is
true of Maori and amongst them, there are different dialects and
traditions. I have been trying to get a Maori Native Language Project
going for OOo for a number of years, but the differences have prevented
getting a single translation sorted. However when something affects
Maori as a whole there is very strong unity in protecting those things
they see as being representative of their cultural identity and they
have used IP law effectively in this.
> What you are saying is akin to talking about Spanish-speaking South
> America or German-speaking Europe as a country. They just aren't.
> And the Apache Nation isn't.
>
Then that is to our advantage, though I have noted some combined
activism on some fronts, and some groups that represent themselves as
"Apache Tribal Nation", let's hope my wariness is unjustified.
Cheers
GL
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Graham Lauder
> <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> Boeing use is obviously very high profile but I haven't been
> able to find any mention of them having any deal with the
> Apache Tribal
> Nation over it's use.
>
> It may not ever be an issue, but experiences at this end of
> the world
> just makes me a little wary.
>
>
>
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
As I mentioned in separate email, there isn't an Apache Tribal Nation.
There is a Navajo nation, but the rest of the southern Athabascans known as
Apaches are divided into many tribes.
What you are saying is akin to talking about Spanish-speaking South America
or German-speaking Europe as a country. They just aren't. And the Apache
Nation isn't.
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>wrote:
> Boeing use is obviously very high profile but I haven't been
> able to find any mention of them having any deal with the Apache Tribal
> Nation over it's use.
>
> It may not ever be an issue, but experiences at this end of the world
> just makes me a little wary.
>
Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Tue, 2011-07-26 at 13:26 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2011-07-25 at 15:54 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Does Apache have an agreement with the Apache Tribal Nation to use the
> >> > name on globally marketed consumer products.
> >>
> >> It might be worth asking this question separately.... and also include
> >> the results of whatever research you may have done on what specific
> >> Trademarks the Apache Tribal Nation may have and why you believe that
> >> there might be confusion in the case of an Office product.
> >
> > I take it that's a "no" then.
>
> Um, that's a bit... rude.
Please, many apologies if I offended, it wasn't supposed to be rude just
what I deduced from your remark
>
> Trademarks simply are not my area of expertise.
Fair enough, I've sent a mail to trademarks@. With a little luck they'll
be able to clarify. The one thing that we have onside is that "Apache"
has been used by others: Boeing obviously for the helicopter and an
offshore power boat manufacturer over which there was a Federal court
battle for ownership of the TM. That was with another boat manufacturer
however. Boeing use is obviously very high profile but I haven't been
able to find any mention of them having any deal with the Apache Tribal
Nation over it's use.
It may not ever be an issue, but experiences at this end of the world
just makes me a little wary.
Cheers
GL
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 2011-07-25 at 15:54 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Does Apache have an agreement with the Apache Tribal Nation to use the
>> > name on globally marketed consumer products.
>>
>> It might be worth asking this question separately.... and also include
>> the results of whatever research you may have done on what specific
>> Trademarks the Apache Tribal Nation may have and why you believe that
>> there might be confusion in the case of an Office product.
>
> I take it that's a "no" then.
Um, that's a bit... rude.
Trademarks simply are not my area of expertise.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org>.
On Mon, 2011-07-25 at 15:54 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> > I have a couple of questions with regard the ownership and legal
> > position with regards the gift of the OpenOffice.org trademarks from
> > Oracle.
> >
> > There has been some pressure to change the name.
> >
> > Apache Policy states the name of the project will be prefaced by Apache.
> > Does this also have to apply to the product? ie; if the project is
> > called Apache OpenOffice is it possible then to still use the
> > trademarked name? ie OpenOffice.org
>
> Perhaps this would be best addressed to trademarks@apache.org?
OK Thanks.
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/contact.html
>
> > The gift of the trademark on "OpenOffice.org" is worth a considerable
> > amount, does Apache have the resources to register another trademark if
> > the decision is made to change the name.
>
> The ASF has recorded a number of trademarks in the past, and
> presumably will continue to do so.
Excellent.
>
> > Does Apache have an agreement with the Apache Tribal Nation to use the
> > name on globally marketed consumer products.
>
> It might be worth asking this question separately.... and also include
> the results of whatever research you may have done on what specific
> Trademarks the Apache Tribal Nation may have and why you believe that
> there might be confusion in the case of an Office product.
I take it that's a "no" then.
No confusion, it's just that there has been a worldwide movement amongst
indigenous peoples to take back any "Intellectual Property" that has
been misappropriated or used without permission. New Zealand Maori have
been leaders in this and have successfully stopped the use of the name
"Maori" or any associated IP in the courts and have won damages in some
cases. Other indigenous peoples are following suit.
Right now, because Apache does not have any high profile consumer
products, the name use is probably under the radar, but adding the name
to a reasonably high profile consumer product that has many indigenous
peoples being members of the NLC, may be problematic in the future.
I just wanted to know where we stand
Cheers
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
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Re: OpenOffice.org branding
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Graham Lauder <yo...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> I have a couple of questions with regard the ownership and legal
> position with regards the gift of the OpenOffice.org trademarks from
> Oracle.
>
> There has been some pressure to change the name.
>
> Apache Policy states the name of the project will be prefaced by Apache.
> Does this also have to apply to the product? ie; if the project is
> called Apache OpenOffice is it possible then to still use the
> trademarked name? ie OpenOffice.org
Perhaps this would be best addressed to trademarks@apache.org?
http://www.apache.org/foundation/contact.html
> The gift of the trademark on "OpenOffice.org" is worth a considerable
> amount, does Apache have the resources to register another trademark if
> the decision is made to change the name.
The ASF has recorded a number of trademarks in the past, and
presumably will continue to do so.
> Does Apache have an agreement with the Apache Tribal Nation to use the
> name on globally marketed consumer products.
It might be worth asking this question separately.... and also include
the results of whatever research you may have done on what specific
Trademarks the Apache Tribal Nation may have and why you believe that
there might be confusion in the case of an Office product.
> Cheers and thanks in advance
>
> GL
> --
> Graham Lauder,
> OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
> http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html
>
> OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant.
- Sam Ruby
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