IRC chat transcript (mostly about pub/sub)

[Jim Marino <jm...@myromatours.com>]

[08:36am] isilval joined the chat room.
[08:42am] jmarino: hi are we having the chat today?
[08:43am] isilval: wondering the same thing
[08:43am] cr22rc: I think a lot of people are gone
[08:44am] jmarino: is that you Ignacio?
[08:44am] isilval: hi Jim, yes this is me
[08:44am] jmarino: hi
[08:44am] jmarino: we could talk about conversational support
[08:44am] isilval: ok with me
[08:44am] jmarino: k does that work for others?
[08:45am] cr22rc: no problem by me
[08:45am] jmarino: k great
[08:45am] jmarino: so, isilval, thanks for submitting the sample
[08:45am] isilval: np, hopefully it can be used as a starting point
[08:46am] jmarino: yea I think it is a good example...
[08:46am] jmarino: We did have another one that was never published  
as part of the spec group (lack of time)...
[08:46am] jmarino: that went under BigBank
[08:46am] jmarino: I was thinking maybe we could have two types...
[08:47am] isilval: is that the one you mentioned in connection with  
conversational support?
[08:47am] jmarino: yes
[08:47am] jmarino: the one you submitted which would show pure async  
(nothing else)
[08:47am] jmarino: and maybe something integrated into bigbank to  
show how async fits in with the rest
[08:47am] jmarino: what do you think?
[08:48am] cr22rc: I kinda like to be in on that given I'm in the  
midst of it
[08:48am] jmarino:
[08:48am] jmarino: do you guys like the idea of having two, one  
simple just to demo the technology and the other more comprehensive?
[08:48am] isilval: any particular issue you would like to highlight  
with respect to fitting with the rest?
[08:49am] jmarino: I think to show the big picture...also to really  
show the value of SCA and why it is different from just building web  
apps
[08:49am] jmarino: some feedback we sometimes get is why is this  
different than say, Spring or EJB
[08:50am] cr22rc: can you give me some details on how it fits in with  
BB?
[08:50am] jmarino: people seem to pick up when we say "it adds first- 
class support for conversations, and models them in the contract
[08:50am] jmarino: sure
[08:50am] jmarino: so I originally worked on a preso with Micahel  
Beiseigel...
[08:50am] jmarino: I just need to clear that and send it to the list
[08:50am] cr22rc: is this still in the bb document ?
[08:51am] jmarino: no we took it out before pub...
[08:51am] cr22rc: bb has sorta changed
[08:51am] jmarino: not enough time
[08:51am] jmarino: oh we never got too far on it
[08:51am] jmarino: it just showed the interfaces, etc.
[08:51am] jmarino: basically the scenario was a loan application
[08:52am] jmarino: pretty standard...we had a client that talked to  
BB through rate locking and approval..
[08:52am] jmarino: then BB talked to a credit bureau...
[08:52am] jmarino: the conversation stuff was handled by the  
infrastructure
[08:53am] cr22rc: Do you think this is something before or after Java!
[08:53am] cr22rc: java1
[08:53am] cr22rc: ?
[08:53am] jmarino: no
[08:53am] cr22rc: ... after ?
[08:53am] jmarino: Yea I think it's going to take a while... it may  
involve a slight spec change
[08:53am] jmarino: Ignacio, does this make sense, I'mnot sure how  
much background you have coming into this?
[08:53am] cr22rc: ok then certainly after Java1
[08:54am] cr22rc: right now BB is on the floor with just what we have  
now.
[08:54am] isilval: my focus is more on async req/resp, and multi- 
consumer interactions, sort of pub/sub-like multiple references
[08:55am] jmarino: that's interesting. Do you have thoughts on how to  
model that in SCA?
[08:55am] isilval: but I can certainly also participate on  
conversational support
[08:56am] isilval: multi-consumer interactions may require slight  
changes to the spec
[08:56am] jmarino: I think it's whatever interests you...pub sub is  
also something good to work on
[08:56am] jmarino: k do you have some specifics you have thought about?
[08:57am] isilval: I've done some work on integrating mom with web  
services, pub/sub in particular, both from infrastructure and prog  
model point of views
[08:58am] jmarino: interesting...so using some MOM infrastructure as  
an underlying transport? We thought about modeling a topic as a  
component and using callbacks in the programming model. Is that  
different from what you were thinking?
[08:58am] isilval: well, for instance, instead of letting a client  
handle the fan-out to explicit receivers, the receiver could be a  
destination (eg, a topic) that can be supported by the infrastructure
[08:59am] isilval: the mom infrastructure was blended with the ws  
infrastructure
[08:59am] jmarino: ah k...so is the destination a component in your  
model?
[08:59am] isilval: eg, not sitting on top of jms
[09:00am] isilval: in our previous work, the destination was given by  
a wsdl binding
[09:00am] jmarino: k so kind of like an external service
[09:01am] isilval: that's where the spec may want to change to make  
the integration as smooth as possible
[09:01am] jmarino: k what were you thinking there?
[09:02am] isilval: nothing concrete yet
[09:02am] jmarino: k would it be possible to create a destination  
(e.g. configure) through a SCDL entry?
[09:02am] isilval: but perhaps extending references to somehow  
indicate the different target
[09:03am] jmarino: k so by extending references, I'm not sure I follow
[09:03am] isilval: yeah, we'd want to make it as flexible as we are  
used to with the rest of jca
[09:04am] jmarino: would the reference somehow have to indicate  
something?
[09:04am] isilval: I'm thinking out loud as we talk, haven't worked  
out the details in the context of sca
[09:04am] jmarino: sure np
[09:05am] isilval: our previous goal was to have as little impact on  
the ws prog model and at the same time to be able to integrate pub/ 
sub, or messaging in general
[09:05am] jmarino: yea that's something we have been wanting to do in  
SCA but haven't had time (integrate pub/sub)
[09:06am] isilval: so we used wsdl bindings as mechanism for the  
added lateness in the binding to the consumer
[09:06am] isilval: or consumers
[09:06am] jmarino: k so now we have the assembly file and may be able  
to accomplish something similar. Is that what you are thinking?
[09:06am] isilval: I can work on a proposal and discuss it in this  
forum first before we bring it up to the sca spec forum
[09:07am] jmarino: k that may be the best way to proceed. Do you want  
to think about it a little further and then post some ideas to the  
list (they don't need to be anything formal, just thoughts)?...I can  
help on things as well
[09:08am] isilval: sure, I can do that
[09:09am] jmarino: to move things along, maybe we do that, discuss it  
a bit, and then we can identify the areas in Tuscany that will need  
work? This way we can narrow things down?
[09:09am] isilval: sounds good
[09:11am] jmarino: k I'm generally around on irc and also googletalk  
at jim.marino if you want to ping me. If you want to toss some ideas  
around, even before a mail to the list, we could discuss there (IRC  
may be better so others can see too)
[09:11am] jmarino: I think it would be really interesting if we could  
show pub/sub in Tuscany
[09:12am] isilval: me too, as a seamlessly integrated programming model
[09:13am] jmarino: yea exacly. o.k. I've got to run in a sec so maybe  
we can continue as questions come up and once we have a picture of  
how it will be integrated we identify the areas that need work.   
Sounds good?
[09:14am] isilval: sure, we can do this in parallel with the other  
work on conversational support and one-way calls
[09:15am] jmarino: yea that's what I was thinking
[09:15am] jmarino: This doesn't sound like it will need changes to  
the scope containers like conversations
[09:16am] isilval: probably not
[09:16am] jmarino: it may involve creating bindings, infrastructure  
for setting up topics with some underlying MOM, and fudging with the  
way references are injected, and a way to represent the topic (e..g  
Java interface or something else if the client is non-Java)
[09:17am] jmarino: we have some of that in place but I'm sure pub/sub  
is going to introduce some interesting things
[09:18am] jmarino: k I've got to duck out here but thanks for getting  
involved
[09:18am] isilval: yeah, reference injection will depend on the  
actual proposal; tuscany itself could become its own underlying mom
[09:18am] jmarino: interesting...
[09:18am] isilval: sure we'll continue the conversation later
[09:19am] jmarino: k sure...we have talked briefly about creating a  
generic pub/sub mechanism for tuscany in general...
[09:19am] jmarino: e.g. notify when wires change, etc.
[09:19am] jmarino: Perhaps we could do something that handles both.  
Have you looked at ActiveMQ?
[09:19am] isilval: not much
[09:20am] jmarino: that may be something to look at. I heard it's  
quite good. Also, they have a fast, in-memory protocol as well
[09:20am] jmarino: we may be able to use some of that
[09:21am] jmarino: they also support multiple protocols I believe
[09:21am] jmarino: anyway, I've got to head out. It's been nice  
talking with you
[09:21am] isilval: sure, let's have a look
[09:21am] jmarino: k cool
[09:21am] jmarino: ttyl
[09:22am] isilval: ok