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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> on 2002/05/02 02:11:11 UTC
Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the
decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
> Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches
> are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one
> etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision to get
> past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that works and
> is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
> coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
> IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
I can't stand XSL...
> I'm also a little worried about the size/vocality of the centipede
> developer community. Krysalis lists (in the archive) total 53 posts. Maven
> dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151.
Lol...guess it is really fact now.
------ Forwarded Message
From: "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org>
Reply-To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 00:10:23 +0200
To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Cc: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
Subject: Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all yourprojects
to maven!)
Jon said:
> as well as having more developer interest.
That's your opinion.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
------ End of Forwarded Message
-jon
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 20:11, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches
> > are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> > external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one
> > etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision to get
> > past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that works and
> > is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
> > coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
> > IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
>
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...
>
> > I'm also a little worried about the size/vocality of the centipede
> > developer community. Krysalis lists (in the archive) total 53 posts. Maven
> > dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151.
>
> Lol...guess it is really fact now.
Why to be fair, since much of the work took place on the poi list....
please include the POI message numbers in your useless statistics ;-)
Oh and BTW Cocoon too (since centipede came partly out of the cocoon
build)....oh and don't forget some of the forest posts... Bah.
>
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 00:10:23 +0200
> To: <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Cc: "Jakarta Commons Developers List" <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all yourprojects
> to maven!)
>
> Jon said:
> > as well as having more developer interest.
>
> That's your opinion.
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>
> -jon
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>Seems like overkill to stop a project based on the stylesheet technology,
>but it's your choice to make.
>
Its not ONLY the tag language. And its the refusal to collaborate that
really irks me. Furthermore, there model of seperation of centipede
looks nicer. I'd like to see the two ideas combined but the centipede
more closely fits my world view. If the two ideas were integrated well
then they'd totally give me everything I need. So -1 for maven until
they decide to wise up and play nice.
>>None taken. But I prefer to go by my first name.
>>
>
>Ah, my profuse apologies. I did know your name, it was just a momentary
>synapse failure. :P
>
No prob. Common mistake, Delagrange ;-)
-Andy
>
>>-Andy
>>
>>>- Morgan
>>>
>
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
>
>http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAI
N
> >TING
> >
> >The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a
> >Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project. Gather some
> >developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides. Later on, if
> >you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging
area,
> >and call another vote. Both will do the job.
> >
> Right, I'm just stating that I dislike the goal of this (avoid
> collaboration, and enforce pet project use) so much that I'll -1 on any
> project I'm on that switching is brought up.
Seems like overkill to stop a project based on the stylesheet technology,
but it's your choice to make.
> So build your bike shed.
> But if I have a say it will go unused because it doesn't suit my needs.
> (unlike a combined collaborative effort that supports standards)
Hmm, that is sort of the point of the essay. If it's not integral to the
success of the project, it shouldn't matter. But as I say, your choice.
> >
> >Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other
exclusively.
> >For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added
a
> >transform to Anakia so it works with the site build. Similarly you may
be
> >able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives.
> >
> >This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else. This just happened to be
the
> >most recent post on this topic.
> >
> None taken. But I prefer to go by my first name.
Ah, my profuse apologies. I did know your name, it was just a momentary
synapse failure. :P
- Morgan
> -Andy
>
> >
> >- Morgan
> >
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAIN
>TING
>
>The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a
>Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project. Gather some
>developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides. Later on, if
>you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging area,
>and call another vote. Both will do the job.
>
Right, I'm just stating that I dislike the goal of this (avoid
collaboration, and enforce pet project use) so much that I'll -1 on any
project I'm on that switching is brought up. So build your bike shed.
But if I have a say it will go unused because it doesn't suit my needs.
(unlike a combined collaborative effort that supports standards)
>
>Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other exclusively.
>For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added a
>transform to Anakia so it works with the site build. Similarly you may be
>able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives.
>
>This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else. This just happened to be the
>most recent post on this topic.
>
None taken. But I prefer to go by my first name.
-Andy
>
>- Morgan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
>To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:51 AM
>Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
>(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
>
>
>>Guys,
>>
>>Bottom line (you could probably guess these but it needs to be said):
>>
>>1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
>>on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
>>effort with centipede.
>>
>>2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>>
>>So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is
>>successful... If its that a large set or all of the projects on
>>jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it
>>removes my and several others objections). If its to force us all to
>>use your pet projects, well good luck. Its certainly not turning out to
>>be a springboard for collaboration.
>>
>>You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it. Work towards
>>collaboration. Work towards standards support. Then you'll reach a
>>consensus. If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but
>>it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve.
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>
>>
>>Berin Loritsch wrote:
>>
>>>Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>>>
>>>>on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The
>>>>>approaches
>>>>>are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
>>>>>external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs
>>>>>generating one
>>>>>etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision
>>>>>to get
>>>>>past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that
>>>>>works and
>>>>>is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
>>>>>coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't
>>>>>
>think,
>
>>>>>IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>>>>
>>>>I can't stand XSL...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
>>>
>>>Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
>>>want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you
>>>don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into
>>>DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
>>>
>>>But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
>>>of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/faq/misc.html#BIKESHED-PAIN
TING
The language you use for transformation is, in the case of a
Maven/Centipete-type tool, largely internal to the project. Gather some
developers, call a vote, and use what the majority decides. Later on, if
you have an itch to switch, convert the files, put them in a staging area,
and call another vote. Both will do the job.
Personally I like XSLT. I find it feature rich and I don't find it
difficult to use. But I'll use DVSL if that's what the project requires. I
think the quantity of developers who are literally incapable of using one or
the other is negligable. If they are ideologically incapable, that's their
problem.
Actually it may not even be necessary to pick one or the other exclusively.
For example Latka maintains its documentation in docbook, but Dion added a
transform to Anakia so it works with the site build. Similarly you may be
able to provide DVSL and XSL alternatives.
This is not a slam on Oliver or anybody else. This just happened to be the
most recent post on this topic.
- Morgan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
> Guys,
>
> Bottom line (you could probably guess these but it needs to be said):
>
> 1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
> on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
> effort with centipede.
>
> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>
> So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is
> successful... If its that a large set or all of the projects on
> jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it
> removes my and several others objections). If its to force us all to
> use your pet projects, well good luck. Its certainly not turning out to
> be a springboard for collaboration.
>
> You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it. Work towards
> collaboration. Work towards standards support. Then you'll reach a
> consensus. If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but
> it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve.
>
> -Andy
>
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >
> >> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The
> >>> approaches
> >>> are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> >>> external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs
> >>> generating one
> >>> etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision
> >>> to get
> >>> past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that
> >>> works and
> >>> is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
> >>> coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't
think,
> >>> IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
> >>
> >> I can't stand XSL...
> >
> >
> >
> > And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
> >
> > Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
> > want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you
> > don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into
> > DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
> >
> > But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
> > of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
From: <co...@covalent.net>
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > 1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
> > on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
> > effort with centipede.
>
> Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I
> have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter.
>
> DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how
> you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both.
>
> I'll probably be -1 on any tool that uses a project descriptor that is not
> compatible with Gump ( it can add more information - as long as it's
> backward compatible ). If you want changes to the DTD - get it into Gump.
> When centipede and maven will reach the same level with gump ( that allow
> all apache projects to be built without forcing anything but trivial
> changes to the build file ) - we can talk again.
Centipede descriptor is compatible with Gump.
It enhances it as you say, and I will propose it on the gump mailing list as
I promised a while back. It contains the suggestions I kindly recieved from
many users and mailing lists, who I kindly thank. Forrest is now being
gumped using this descriptor directly.
It also doesn't require to change the build files, and doesn't require to
change the directory layout, because layout.xml defines the mapping between
logical and phisical dirs.
It's pure plain Ant.
All of the Centipede features are written with Ant.
Centipede will make it possible to choose Cocoon, Anakia or Maven for
documentation building, because I want users to have a choice, if they want
it.
With Centipede you can call the Centipede targets (which are more granular
than in Maven, usually), define your properties in XML, or have the
"automagic" cent call them for you.
We need documentation, and that is what I'm writing now, it's on the top of
my todo list.
-oOo-
Someone hinted that what I wrote was all blah, blah, blah... read my bottom
line, man.
-oOo-
I keep the possibility of collaborating with Maven always open, but the
recent mails say it all.
This is my second attempt, and won't be the last.
I'm ok with a new project that keeps together build and code comprehension
tools, like Ant, Gump, Alexandria, Maven, and Centipede. We use the same
descriptor data, since we all use basically the same input, so it's ok for
me.
I will continue to work closely with Gump and give back stuff to Alexandria
as previously stated, as we have done with Ant (the new XmlProperty task is
from Centipede).
In contrast, I see Maven doing the opposite, including inside other projects
as Alexandria and putting on them the Maven trademark. I hope they will
give proper credit to Centipede when it will be needed.
Many tools it has, could be cool to be in Commons, (like the importScrubber)
but it seems that you will have to get all Maven to get it to work.
There is also JJAR in Commons which Centipede uses, but it seems that they
don't really like to eat the same Jakarta dogfood they incite others to
have.
"You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
>Jon wrote:
>
>>on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>>1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
>>>
>>Somehow I doubt that.
>>
>>-jon
>>
>
>I will submit this thread as background material for my JSR proposal
>based upon the existing JSR-57: "Long-Term Persistence for JavaBeans".
>
>I'll call mine JSR-666: "Long-Term Perseverance in Inventing New Art
>Forms".
>
>Come on guys, let's get on with our lives. If destiny is upon us, we
>will meet in the end. If not, why spend more energy convincing each
>other of "doin' the one right thing". Sure this world is big enough to
>have some opposing views. We don't want to digress into politics over
>here, don't we?
>
></Steven>
>
Right.. why can't we just collaborate and create one big and better one
that supports everyone? I STILL do not understand that... someone needs
to explain it to me. . Maybe I'm dense dumb and stupid but it seems
like the best way to handle this.
>
>
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon wrote:
> on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > 1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
>
> Somehow I doubt that.
>
> -jon
I will submit this thread as background material for my JSR proposal
based upon the existing JSR-57: "Long-Term Persistence for JavaBeans".
I'll call mine JSR-666: "Long-Term Perseverance in Inventing New Art
Forms".
Come on guys, let's get on with our lives. If destiny is upon us, we
will meet in the end. If not, why spend more energy convincing each
other of "doin' the one right thing". Sure this world is big enough to
have some opposing views. We don't want to digress into politics over
here, don't we?
</Steven>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/2/02 11:52 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> 1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
Somehow I doubt that.
-jon
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>People
>------
>
>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
>
because I refuse to adopt things if they don't meet my needs and if
those who create them refuse to meet my needs and don't want to
collaborate? Then a Benedict Arnold I am.
I know how it works Jon... most of the time you crack me up....I've
learned to enjoy you... But the rest of the time, I think you have
shell shock. Again... in this long diatribe missed the point:
1. I need something that supports XSL in my build framework
2. Maven Doesn't
3. Maven refuses to collaborate with Centipede
4. Centipede folks want to collaborate
5. I thereby reject Maven wherever I have the choice because of points 1-4.
Collaobrate and you suite everyone needs. But thats not what the game
is here.. . Its "your way" or not and you're not interested in
collaborating or incorporating other ideas. Consensus requires
inclusion. I feel exluded. I suppose I deserved a "you're peter" since
I called you stallman.
-Andy
>
>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>
>:-)
>
>-jon
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>Why am I so obnoxious about all this? My commercial alter-ego (I did
>start up a company 6 months ago, hopefully I will now be respected as a
>grown-up ;-) wants to provide such an infrastructure to my customers,
>since they are going already through the pain of switching from Cobol to
>Java/XML and really need a solid project management/documentation/build
>environment to do some decent Java coding.
>
I'm in a similar boat.
>
></Steven>
>
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Pedantic, I know, but here goes anyway:
Leo wrote:
> Avalon currently uses cocoon (sort of an eat-your-own-dogfood
> case), and
> other developers would like this to stay that way. There is a tool(4)
> that does the same thing as the jakarta project, created by
> people from
> xml.apache. The tool does allow me to plug in this look, and it uses
> cocoon.
> (4) Centipede
(4) Forrest
Centipede uses Forrest for that, which uses Centipede as its build tool.
So if anyone wants to blame a project for adopting XSLT, it's Forrest
you need to target.
Apart from that, your post deserves my entire blessing (FWIW), and I
urge you to read
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=102031933515183&w=2
in that respect.
Why am I so obnoxious about all this? My commercial alter-ego (I did
start up a company 6 months ago, hopefully I will now be respected as a
grown-up ;-) wants to provide such an infrastructure to my customers,
since they are going already through the pain of switching from Cobol to
Java/XML and really need a solid project management/documentation/build
environment to do some decent Java coding.
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> Bike Sheds
> ----------
>
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world.
I really _don't care_ whether it is XSLT, or DVSL, a GUMP project
descriptor or a maven descriptor. I don't care which project hosts what.
I want all my bikes to fit into the same shed. I think there's quite a
few more people out there that feel the same.
Use case
--------
1) fire up computer
2) run grab-a-coffee-during-complete-update.sh
- cvs update of everything
- build of everything
- test of everything
- compilation of errors sent via e-mail to me
- overview of changes sent via e-mail to me
3) read e-mail
"everything" should include docs, dependency graphs, javadocs, javasrc,
website, pdfs, etc in an ideal situation.
I also need pluggable look and feel (I don't want my company website
looking like the Jakarta one), extensibility, pluggability and
manageability.
* easiest way of satisfying use case
Combining that complete myriad of tools other people wrote would enable
me to do this. I could rip out the components I need from different bike
sheds and build the power plant I need over the weekend.
There'd be Yet Another Bike Shed, and everyone would do it, and there'd
be no more collaboration.
* best way of satisfying use case
Discuss with smarter people that wrote those tools how to handle this,
agree on course of action, combine different bike sheds into reusable
power plant.
Use case 2
----------
The avalon project badly needs a better website. It needs a better look
and feel.
* no satisfaction
There's a jakarta project(1) that handles this, but I do not like the
look it provides. I created a MVC presentation layer file(2) in the
project's custom presentation layer language(3) to provide a custom
look. I found it too difficult to create a patch for this project that
enabled this look while preserving the one currently in use by this
project.
* satisfaction
Avalon currently uses cocoon (sort of an eat-your-own-dogfood case), and
other developers would like this to stay that way. There is a tool(4)
that does the same thing as the jakarta project, created by people from
xml.apache. The tool does allow me to plug in this look, and it uses
cocoon.
I complain about how difficult it is to plug in the look, as docs are
lacking. The tool author(5) promises better docs, and in the meantime,
promises to provide the look I envisioned with his tool.
So, what's the bad part? The jakarta project is being pushed by some
people(6) at jakarta to be the next de facto standard for generating all
of jakarta's web site documentation. I like to follow standards, de
facto or not, if at all possible.
* optimal satisfaction
The two competing projects merge to the extend where they satisfy the
use case together. Avalon can keep eating its own dogfood, as that food
becomes part of the to-be-de-facto standard. As there are no more
competing projects, this de facto standard becomes more 'standard'.
(1) Maven
(2) at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-avalon/src/proposal/site/anakia/xdocs/stylesheets/site.vsl?rev=1.3&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
(3) DVSL
(4) Centipede
(5) Nicola Ken
(6) Jon
Summary
-------
I have personal, commercial and jakarta project use cases for a tool
that combines features from all the different build tools that exist.
Many of those tool authors have those use cases as well and are open to
this combination and would like to cooperate to make this work.
Problem
-------
The optimal satisfaction of the mentioned use cases is, as far as I can
tell, only hindered by an unwillingless of some of the tool authors to
cooperate.
Where, in all this, am I building any kind of shed? Where am I not
thinking free? Who is missing which point?
> People
> ------
>
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
I am not on any PMC, I have never hired anyone in my life, I have no
degree, I have no imposing career, no company. I don't have a car. I
don't even have a driving license. I have, in terms of code, contributed
only in a very modest way to the jakarta community, and I have not been
around very long either.
Does any of that matter, at all? If it does to you, well, I don't really
think you're thinking free, or open, at all.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
If you hate ME to messages scroll to the end where there is one minor
point or just register a "me too" and move on... ;-)
>
>
> Finally. Jon, I knew you could do it. You wrote your first intelligent
> post in this whole thread!
:-D
>
> ;P
>
> There are things to like with both projects. However you do ignore some
> things that are important. GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it. I honestly don't like
> the Maven look--but the feel is ok. The problem is that Maven does not
> make it easy to change either the look or the feel. It takes more
> effort than should be required for a _build_ tool. The types of docs
> that it generates are fantastic. They are very useful.
>
> I personally lean toward Centipede because it uses more of *my* pet
> projects :) And there lies the rub. I personally would like to see
> where some projects use Maven and some use Centipede. Either way,
> I want them to be compatible with GUMP.
start singing "wouldn't it be nice to work together..."
>
> And who said it was beyond our aptitude. All anybody said is that it
> was beyond our desire. If we have a tool that works for us, and it
> garners more and more _tool_ support--we will use it. It's what makes
> for the project. Yes money is not the key motivator, and anyone who
> thinks it is should be shot, but if we need to find a new employer--
> we will have a better time if we know XSLT as opposed to DVSL.
>
> So sometimes decisions to use a product or project is completely out
> of your control. Nevertheless, I maintain that I can wrap my head
> around anything in under two weeks (two weeks being for very complex
> projects). That's if I need to. I personally balance involvement
> in four projects (2 on XML.apache and 2 on Jakarta), a personal
> life, a professional life, and hobbies. The less I have to learn
> for a build the better. If I need to update the look and feel of
> a site to brand a project for my own purposes--I don't want to waste
> two weeks figuring it out. I want to use what I already know so
> I can just do it.
>
> Its as simple and pragmatic as that.
+1 - complete agreement.
>
> And yet, you insist that all free thinkers think like you. Not all free
> thinkers fit in your box (sometimes it is a little confining ;P ).
+1
>
>
> I personally like Peter, don't you? You guys can be alike in some ways,
> which is probably why you had a hard time with him.
>
I like everyone...even jon. I'm sure I'm not his favorite person...but
I find him amusing most of the time.
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by lloyd <su...@twilight-systems.com>.
> > You guys are so funny.
My name is Hammer. I like to rave!
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@engin.umich.edu>.
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> WIth certain limitations. Where is the Nag entries, etc.?
The nag entries are there now, after it was pointed out yesterday that
they weren't being added. I'm not sure what "etc" needs to be added to
the descriptor besides that, but I'm sure that we can work it out if it's
needed.
> It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
> generated--not extended.
That fact does remain...
-Kurt
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Kurt Schrader wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
>
>>There are things to like with both projects. However you do ignore some
>>things that are important. GUMP integration is important--I like the
>>fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.
>
>
> Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
> project descriptor for a Mavenized project.
WIth certain limitations. Where is the Nag entries, etc.?
It's getting better, but the fact remains that the gump descriptor is
generated--not extended.
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@engin.umich.edu>.
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> There are things to like with both projects. However you do ignore some
> things that are important. GUMP integration is important--I like the
> fact that Centipede works out of the box with it.
Just to clear this up, "ant maven:gump-descriptor" will generate a Gump
project descriptor for a Mavenized project.
-Kurt
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net" <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I
>>have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter.
>>
>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how
>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both.
>>
>>Costin
>
>
> You guys are so funny.
>
> Bike Sheds
> ----------
>
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world.
>
> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.
>
> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.
>
> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.
Finally. Jon, I knew you could do it. You wrote your first intelligent
post in this whole thread!
;P
There are things to like with both projects. However you do ignore some
things that are important. GUMP integration is important--I like the
fact that Centipede works out of the box with it. I honestly don't like
the Maven look--but the feel is ok. The problem is that Maven does not
make it easy to change either the look or the feel. It takes more
effort than should be required for a _build_ tool. The types of docs
that it generates are fantastic. They are very useful.
I personally lean toward Centipede because it uses more of *my* pet
projects :) And there lies the rub. I personally would like to see
where some projects use Maven and some use Centipede. Either way,
I want them to be compatible with GUMP.
>
> Learning Technology
> -------------------
>
> The argument about learning minor technologies to make money is so silly it
> is funny. I have owned/started several companies now and have been
> responsible for hiring or directly approving the hiring of about 50-60
> people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount, but not small either.
>
> Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person knows minor technology
> X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the most about was that the
> person had a general good skill set and the aptitude to learn something new.
> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.
>
And who said it was beyond our aptitude. All anybody said is that it
was beyond our desire. If we have a tool that works for us, and it
garners more and more _tool_ support--we will use it. It's what makes
for the project. Yes money is not the key motivator, and anyone who
thinks it is should be shot, but if we need to find a new employer--
we will have a better time if we know XSLT as opposed to DVSL.
So sometimes decisions to use a product or project is completely out
of your control. Nevertheless, I maintain that I can wrap my head
around anything in under two weeks (two weeks being for very complex
projects). That's if I need to. I personally balance involvement
in four projects (2 on XML.apache and 2 on Jakarta), a personal
life, a professional life, and hobbies. The less I have to learn
for a build the better. If I need to update the look and feel of
a site to brand a project for my own purposes--I don't want to waste
two weeks figuring it out. I want to use what I already know so
I can just do it.
Its as simple and pragmatic as that.
> On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into the box because everyone
> else is doing it would make me instantly not like your personality. I like
> people who are free thinkers and who can think outside of the box. Software
> is an art form, not something that you can just cookie cutter produce (and
> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are creating.
>
And yet, you insist that all free thinkers think like you. Not all free
thinkers fit in your box (sometimes it is a little confining ;P ).
> People
> ------
>
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>
I personally like Peter, don't you? You guys can be alike in some ways,
which is probably why you had a hard time with him.
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@thought.co.uk>.
Jon said:
> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.
Which, I believe, highlights a major issue here. For once the producers of
technology are being cast into consumers of it, and realising that cool
technology in itself is not enough to get that sale. Ease of implementation
and maintenance and a low cost of migration are the sticking points.
sub-Projects won't sign up to new ways of developing their sites for its own
sake, we all know we'd rather be working on the project than the website
generation tool. Any change has to bring advantages which outweigh the
costs.
d.
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Kurt Schrader <ks...@engin.umich.edu>.
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
> anything done ;-)
Jon is not developing Maven or DVSL.
This line of argument has grown tired...
-Kurt
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>on 5/2/02 1:25 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
>>anything done ;-)
>>
>
>Maven isn't my pet project.
>
>I just like it cause it works for me.
>
>-jon
>
And if the two were to work together as Ken has suggested....would it
some how *stop* working for you? hummmm? Why so anti-collaboration?
>
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/2/02 1:25 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
> anything done ;-)
Maven isn't my pet project.
I just like it cause it works for me.
-jon
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
>>valid in my opinion.
>>
>
>I hope another jakarta commiter will join me and second my -1.
>
I second!
>
>And I hope you'll not find a way to twist this rule.
>
+1
>
>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
>>have hired you anyway.
>>
I wouldn't go to the interview in the first place.
>
>It's not a matter of learning - but of principles. Respecting and using
>standards, even if simpler solutions may exist - would be a big argument
>for me.
>
And because if we just use all jon's pet projects only jon would get
anything done ;-)
>
>
>Respecting and using standards shows you care about the community and
> the other people who one way or another will use your code.
>
>If reinventing the wheel is what you call 'free thinkers', I'm sorry about
>you.
>
:-D But he's not so free thinking to want to encourage collaboration.
-Andy (whose feeling like some kind of communist about now ;-) )
>
>
>Costin
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/2/02 5:45 PM, "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-)
>>(Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)
>>
>>
>
>That's DVSL vs XSLT.
>
>
I was slightly off-focus. I was thinking about using the Anakia task vs
XSLT to transform XML for web pages. This IMO was a case of worse is
better, since the complexity of "doing it right" in XSLT leads to all
sort of implementation complexities, and "doing it right in XML" to
awful syntax.
On the other hand Anakia is too simple for complex use cases. But it
delivers simple transformations, and does them fast.
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 5/2/02 5:45 PM, "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
>
> Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-)
> (Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)
That's DVSL vs XSLT.
--
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Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Michael McCallum wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
>>> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
>>> get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
>>> the standards.
>>>
>>
>> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created
>> things which were easy for people to use
>> and they became the de facto standards.
>
>
> Grmble grmble grmble.
>
> Microsoft got where it is based on the shear might of its marketing
> prowess. It made it easier than Mac to develop, so more developers
> created solutions for it. I've seen Java tools beat out M$ tools
> for the same job.
In a sense, it could have been a case of "the Rise of Worse is better"
(in Richard Gabriel's sense:
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html). I'm not claiming that
Microsoft designed from New Jersey, :-) but that while IBM was making
the perfect OS/2 and all the UNIX community was caring about CORBA and
complex code repositories they delivered a Windows, and later Visual
Basic, which was a horrible hack, but a hack that enabled companies to
start making client server. Take this together with the exponential
expansion on the number of PCs, and the need of programmers to "feed"
them, and it makes sense.
While they were a busy monopoly thinking about New Technology, on the
other side, Mozilla (and A Patchy Server, and later a flock of penguins
and devils) left them out of a new game. This could be again a case of
"Worse is better".
Even the Velocity vs XSLT could be a case for Worse is better :-)
(Seriously, I have been thinking along these lines for the last days)
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Michael McCallum <mi...@snaphire.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
You all seemed to miss my point.
M$ does not support standards they make then.
I dont like it but thats the way things work.
I run pure gnu-linux.
If you make something easy to use people use it. It becomes a standard.
Simple.
For complex things simple docs make the difference.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
iD8DBQE80bYyiVyQAvn9zYsRAiC6AJ9jQtIWkjjhI53s+qDpBWYLAFKkvQCcD1se
bqZi5QFNNB162wvr973F8fc=
=NfNX
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Michael McCallum wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>>I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
>>'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
>>get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
>>the standards.
>>
>
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were easy for people to use
> and they became the de facto standards.
Grmble grmble grmble.
Microsoft got where it is based on the shear might of its marketing
prowess. It made it easier than Mac to develop, so more developers
created solutions for it. I've seen Java tools beat out M$ tools
for the same job.
You can't claim microsoft has legitimately better technology if they
haven't worked with it. I've worked with it, and to say I dislike it
would be an understatement. MFC is the work of a raving mad mob of
developers rushing to get product out the door. It combines both
OOD and procedural mindsets within the same API.
Microsoft is *not* easy to develop. It's easier than Macintosh
(at least during the critical time frame when Mac could have done
better). Easy to use means that several apes pounding on keyboards
produced something that a user liked somewhere.
There are other dirty underhanded things that M$ did to get where it
is today. Don't try to compare us to M$. We're not M$.
>
> Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.
>
And standards solve problems tend to be doubly more practical.
Standards allow you to communicate more freely, because everyone
speaks the same language. There is no impedence mismatch because
I say To-mah-to and you say To-may-to. There is no misunderstanding
because I call a toilet a jon and you call it a lavatory. That is
what standards are about. No more wasted energy trying to explain
what we mean by a piece of code. Its a standard.
My 2c
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Michael McCallum <mi...@snaphire.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Friday, 03 May, 2002 10:00, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> explain exactly WHAT that has to do with this? Who gives a rats behind
> about Microsoft. (warning: irony)
Sorry my point was whomever makes the tool easier to use will be the one that is adopted.
I got maven up and going in five minutes because the docs are very good.
I did not get centipede up and running in five minutes because the docs are not that good.
Without people being able to get it running they wont get and itch and try to fix stuff and help.
I think ill second a previous statement lets stop flaming and just use whats easier for us.
It will turn out well in the end.
Michael
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
explain exactly WHAT that has to do with this? Who gives a rats behind
about Microsoft. (warning: irony)
-Andy
On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 16:52, Michael McCallum wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > the standards.
> >
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were easy for people to use
> and they became the de facto standards.
>
> Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.
>
> My 2c
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> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
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>
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> 9/+5ItAUtqZsAAjOB8nMfzA=
> =ImAW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
I really wonder why it is that all one has to do is say "Microsoft" on
any Apache thread and they get 100 responses. I wonder if it works that
way on whatever-microsoft-related-lists are out there.
-Andy
On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 18:32, costinm@covalent.net wrote:
> On Fri, 3 May 2002, Michael McCallum wrote:
>
> > > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > > get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > > the standards.
> > >
> > Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created
> > things which were easy for people to use and they became the de facto
> > standards.
>
> Microsoft get where it is in part because various Unix vendors
> created their own competing OS versions and tried to become
> the de facto standard. Most attempts to create 'de facto standards'
> that compete with an existing standard do fail, even for Microsoft.
>
>
>
> Costin
>
>
>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Fri, 3 May 2002, Michael McCallum wrote:
> > I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> > 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> > get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> > the standards.
> >
> Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created
> things which were easy for people to use and they became the de facto
> standards.
Microsoft get where it is in part because various Unix vendors
created their own competing OS versions and tried to become
the de facto standard. Most attempts to create 'de facto standards'
that compete with an existing standard do fail, even for Microsoft.
Costin
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Michael McCallum <mi...@snaphire.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
>
Microsoft did not get where it was by using standards. It created things which were easy for people to use
and they became the de facto standards.
Tools that solve problems tend to be much more pratical than standards.
My 2c
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=ImAW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
<co...@covalent.net> writes:
> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
Standards are funny things. There's always so many to choose from.
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
Costin,
Being you quite a brilliant guy, I don't understand two troubles
you seem to have:
1) Getting too upset about what Jon says (Jon says a lot of crap);
2) Blindly accepting a standard just because someone says it is
a standard.
A standard only stands if you accept it. Example: almost no one
really knows anymore what the Standard Pascal programming
language was. Most people that know Pascal, know Turbo-Pascal or
(now) Delphi.
In the last 10 years, most commercial Pascal compilers claimed
to be Turbo Pascal compatible and not ISO or ANSI or whatever is
the Pascal standard's name.
These are the standards that matter: those chosen by their
users an not by some committee.
XSLT as a template mechanism is a piece of crap. I tried several
alternatives and I got better productivity with a much smoother
learning curve with almost all of them.
The point is that someone should not have to be a rocket
scientist just to build a damn template. Since designers...
- Generally (all I know) hate XSLT and love Velocity;
- Are completely dependent on me with XSLT but are almost
completely independent maintaining Velocity templates;
- Are much better designing web pages than me...
... and since Velocity can do all that is needed with a fraction
of the trouble one gets from XSLT, there must be something wrong
with this XSLT standard.
Maybe XSLT is good for something else. Not HTML templates.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: costinm@covalent.net [mailto:costinm@covalent.net]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:27 PM
> To: Jon Scott Stevens
>
> ...
>
> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
> get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
>
> ...
>
> Costin
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/2/02 12:26 PM, "costinm@covalent.net" <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
> I never used ( and I don't plan to use ) Anakia
How did you generate this diff?
<http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-site2/docs/site/binindex.html.dif
f?r1=1.70&r2=1.71>
Come on Costin, you keep shooting yourself in your foot.
-jon
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
Jon calling me 'hypocrite'....
That is a bit funny, at least after reading his arguments on this thread.
( and how this thread started, and all his actions on this subject ).
Well, as I said I will vote -1 on any switch to Maven wherever I have a
vote.
I never used ( and I don't plan to use ) Anakia - and I voted -1 and
I'll keep voting -1 whenever my vote is counted.
I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if
'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to
get people to work togheter - and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
the standards.
> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.
I hope another jakarta commiter will join me and second my -1.
And I hope you'll not find a way to twist this rule.
> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.
Just like with tomcat 3 and tomcat4, we all learned that you _can_ get
people to work togheter, even if they disagree on many things. Coyote is
a good example, jasper2 may be another.
As long as people like you stay away, at least.
> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.
It's not a matter of learning - but of principles. Respecting and using
standards, even if simpler solutions may exist - would be a big argument
for me.
> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are creating.
Respecting and using standards shows you care about the community and
the other people who one way or another will use your code.
If reinventing the wheel is what you call 'free thinkers', I'm sorry about
you.
Costin
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>Nope I'm not missing your point. I'm just waiting for the salient points to
>come out. This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring. You've said:
>
>[Andy]
>
>> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>>
And? Youre point? I don't want to use DVSL. So what?
>
>and Jon has said:
>
>[Jon]
>
>>I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>>
>>I can't stand XSL...
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
>picked up my "bike shed" argument. I suspect you are too. If we want to
>see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
>So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
>to the color of their shed. However it's hard to even judge what would make
>a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal. If there are real
>discrepencies, let's spell them out.
>
Its because the only issue is whether the Maven guys will collaborate..
. the rest is all crap. Through collaboration XSL support would be
inherent. so thats crap too.
>
>
>One merged project? Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
>chasing at shadows.
>
One merged project + supporting DVSL for those who like DVSL + XSL for
those who like standards.
I think I've been saying this long enough. . MERGE MERGE MERGE!
-Andy
>
>
>>
>>Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>>
>>>I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
>>>always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
>>>would. :)
>>>
>>>Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers
>>>want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
>>>use. If you don't like it, prove that your
>>>alternative is better. But dropping a whole project
>>>because of a detail is needless.
>>>
>>>- Morgan
>>>
>>>--- Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net"
>>>><co...@covalent.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
>>>>>
>>>>centipede on the projects I
>>>>
>>>>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
>>>>>
>>>>togheter.
>>>>
>>>>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
>>>>>
>>>>standard - regardless of how
>>>>
>>>>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
>>>>>
>>>>supports both.
>>>>
>>>>>Costin
>>>>>
>>>>You guys are so funny.
>>>>
>>>>Bike Sheds
>>>>----------
>>>>
>>>>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
>>>>the Jakarta website. But
>>>>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
>>>>easy to use and took away
>>>>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
>>>>it all over the world.
>>>>
>>>>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
>>>>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
>>>>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
>>>>but no one changed the
>>>>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
>>>>Anakia sites on
>>>>Sourceforget.net all the time.
>>>>
>>>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
>>>>Maven. Just like with
>>>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
>>>>aren't doing the work and
>>>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
>>>>shed and is thus not
>>>>valid in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
>>>>learned that you can't
>>>>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
>>>>on it. Given our
>>>>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
>>>>argue for something like
>>>>that. You hypocrite.
>>>>
>>>>Learning Technology
>>>>-------------------
>>>>
>>>>The argument about learning minor technologies to
>>>>make money is so silly it
>>>>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
>>>>and have been
>>>>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
>>>>hiring of about 50-60
>>>>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
>>>>but not small either.
>>>>
>>>>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
>>>>knows minor technology
>>>>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
>>>>most about was that the
>>>>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
>>>>to learn something new.
>>>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
>>>>aptitude, I probably would not
>>>>have hired you anyway.
>>>>
>>>>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
>>>>the box because everyone
>>>>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
>>>>your personality. I like
>>>>people who are free thinkers and who can think
>>>>outside of the box. Software
>>>>is an art form, not something that you can just
>>>>cookie cutter produce (and
>>>>have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
>>>>free thinkers that have
>>>>the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
>>>>outside of the box shows that
>>>>you care about the code and systems you are
>>>>creating.
>>>>
>>>>People
>>>>------
>>>>
>>>>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
>>>>more and more familiar.
>>>>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
>>>>Peter Donald (credit to
>>>>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
>>>>joining the PMC helped).
>>>>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>>>>
>>>>:-)
>>>>
>>>>-jon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>>>><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail:
>>>><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>>
>>>
>>>=====
>>>Morgan Delagrange
>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
>>>http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>>>http://axion.tigris.org
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________
>>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>>Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
>>>http://health.yahoo.com
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
> You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to
> use a combined collaborated project... I'd -1 solely on that.
> Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me
> to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about
> xsl)... I'd -1 solely on that
Nope I'm not missing your point. I'm just waiting for the salient points to
come out. This DVSL vs. XSL thing is a complete red herring. You've said:
[Andy]
> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
and Jon has said:
[Jon]
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...
I'm pretty sure Jon was exaggerating, particularly considering that he
picked up my "bike shed" argument. I suspect you are too. If we want to
see if collaboration is possible, let's put the real issues on the table.
So far I haven't pinpointed any showstoppers, except for people too attached
to the color of their shed. However it's hard to even judge what would make
a showstopper until there's a more concrete proposal. If there are real
discrepencies, let's spell them out.
> BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based? I
> regard this as a product change.
DVSL is a product change for Centipede. XSL is a product change for Maven.
If the projects merge, different approaches will have to be reconciled by
the majority; essentially you would have a new product; there would be no
existing "product" to change. Clearly most people don't known what, if
anything, they want to gain from this discussion. Two compatible projects?
One merged project? Let's work out some more detailed proposals before
chasing at shadows.
>
>
> Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>
> >I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
> >always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
> >would. :)
> >
> >Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers
> >want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
> >use. If you don't like it, prove that your
> >alternative is better. But dropping a whole project
> >because of a detail is needless.
> >
> >- Morgan
> >
> >--- Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> >
> >>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net"
> >><co...@covalent.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
> >>>
> >>centipede on the projects I
> >>
> >>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
> >>>
> >>togheter.
> >>
> >>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
> >>>
> >>standard - regardless of how
> >>
> >>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
> >>>
> >>supports both.
> >>
> >>>Costin
> >>>
> >>You guys are so funny.
> >>
> >>Bike Sheds
> >>----------
> >>
> >>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
> >>the Jakarta website. But
> >>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
> >>easy to use and took away
> >>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
> >>it all over the world.
> >>
> >>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
> >>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> >>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
> >>but no one changed the
> >>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
> >>Anakia sites on
> >>Sourceforget.net all the time.
> >>
> >>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
> >>Maven. Just like with
> >>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
> >>aren't doing the work and
> >>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
> >>shed and is thus not
> >>valid in my opinion.
> >>
> >>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
> >>learned that you can't
> >>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
> >>on it. Given our
> >>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
> >>argue for something like
> >>that. You hypocrite.
> >>
> >>Learning Technology
> >>-------------------
> >>
> >>The argument about learning minor technologies to
> >>make money is so silly it
> >>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
> >>and have been
> >>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
> >>hiring of about 50-60
> >>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
> >>but not small either.
> >>
> >>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
> >>knows minor technology
> >>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
> >>most about was that the
> >>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
> >>to learn something new.
> >>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
> >>aptitude, I probably would not
> >>have hired you anyway.
> >>
> >>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
> >>the box because everyone
> >>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
> >>your personality. I like
> >>people who are free thinkers and who can think
> >>outside of the box. Software
> >>is an art form, not something that you can just
> >>cookie cutter produce (and
> >>have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
> >>free thinkers that have
> >>the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
> >>outside of the box shows that
> >>you care about the code and systems you are
> >>creating.
> >>
> >>People
> >>------
> >>
> >>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
> >>more and more familiar.
> >>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
> >>Peter Donald (credit to
> >>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
> >>joining the PMC helped).
> >>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> >>
> >>:-)
> >>
> >>-jon
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>
> >
> >
> >=====
> >Morgan Delagrange
> >http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
> >http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
> >http://axion.tigris.org
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
> >http://health.yahoo.com
> >
> >--
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
You're still missing the point ... The main detail to me is I'd like to
use a combined collaborated project... I'd -1 solely on that.
Centipede more completely fits MY needs and will make it easier for me
to work with several projects that I need (not just tlaking about
xsl)... I'd -1 solely on that
BTW when did the Majority voting rule overrule the consenus based? I
regard this as a product change.
Morgan Delagrange wrote:
>I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
>always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
>would. :)
>
>Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers
>want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
>use. If you don't like it, prove that your
>alternative is better. But dropping a whole project
>because of a detail is needless.
>
>- Morgan
>
>--- Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
>
>>on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net"
>><co...@covalent.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
>>>
>>centipede on the projects I
>>
>>>have a vote on until they find a way to work
>>>
>>togheter.
>>
>>>DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
>>>
>>standard - regardless of how
>>
>>>you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
>>>
>>supports both.
>>
>>>Costin
>>>
>>You guys are so funny.
>>
>>Bike Sheds
>>----------
>>
>>At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
>>the Jakarta website. But
>>then when I took the effort to make it simple and
>>easy to use and took away
>>the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
>>it all over the world.
>>
>>On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
>>replaced Jakarta-site2 with
>>anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
>>but no one changed the
>>main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
>>Anakia sites on
>>Sourceforget.net all the time.
>>
>>The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
>>Maven. Just like with
>>Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
>>aren't doing the work and
>>therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
>>shed and is thus not
>>valid in my opinion.
>>
>>Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
>>learned that you can't
>>force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
>>on it. Given our
>>history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
>>argue for something like
>>that. You hypocrite.
>>
>>Learning Technology
>>-------------------
>>
>>The argument about learning minor technologies to
>>make money is so silly it
>>is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
>>and have been
>>responsible for hiring or directly approving the
>>hiring of about 50-60
>>people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
>>but not small either.
>>
>>Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
>>knows minor technology
>>X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
>>most about was that the
>>person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
>>to learn something new.
>>So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
>>aptitude, I probably would not
>>have hired you anyway.
>>
>>On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
>>the box because everyone
>>else is doing it would make me instantly not like
>>your personality. I like
>>people who are free thinkers and who can think
>>outside of the box. Software
>>is an art form, not something that you can just
>>cookie cutter produce (and
>>have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
>>free thinkers that have
>>the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
>>outside of the box shows that
>>you care about the code and systems you are
>>creating.
>>
>>People
>>------
>>
>>Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
>>more and more familiar.
>>Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
>>Peter Donald (credit to
>>Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
>>joining the PMC helped).
>>Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>-jon
>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>><ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>
>
>=====
>Morgan Delagrange
>http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
>http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>http://axion.tigris.org
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
>http://health.yahoo.com
>
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
I agree with pretty much everything said, although as
always Jon words it a tad more strongly than I ever
would. :)
Let the community decide. If 51% of the developers
want to use XSL, or DVSL, then that's what you should
use. If you don't like it, prove that your
alternative is better. But dropping a whole project
because of a detail is needless.
- Morgan
--- Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net"
> <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
>
> > Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or
> centipede on the projects I
> > have a vote on until they find a way to work
> togheter.
> >
> > DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the
> standard - regardless of how
> > you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that
> supports both.
> >
> > Costin
>
> You guys are so funny.
>
> Bike Sheds
> ----------
>
> At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate
> the Jakarta website. But
> then when I took the effort to make it simple and
> easy to use and took away
> the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used
> it all over the world.
>
> On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and
> replaced Jakarta-site2 with
> anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet,
> but no one changed the
> main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new
> Anakia sites on
> Sourceforget.net all the time.
>
> The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be
> Maven. Just like with
> Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You
> aren't doing the work and
> therefore your argument against it is simply a bike
> shed and is thus not
> valid in my opinion.
>
> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all
> learned that you can't
> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1
> on it. Given our
> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to
> argue for something like
> that. You hypocrite.
>
> Learning Technology
> -------------------
>
> The argument about learning minor technologies to
> make money is so silly it
> is funny. I have owned/started several companies now
> and have been
> responsible for hiring or directly approving the
> hiring of about 50-60
> people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount,
> but not small either.
>
> Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person
> knows minor technology
> X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the
> most about was that the
> person had a general good skill set and the aptitude
> to learn something new.
> So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your
> aptitude, I probably would not
> have hired you anyway.
>
> On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into
> the box because everyone
> else is doing it would make me instantly not like
> your personality. I like
> people who are free thinkers and who can think
> outside of the box. Software
> is an art form, not something that you can just
> cookie cutter produce (and
> have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the
> free thinkers that have
> the most creative and bug free code. Thinking
> outside of the box shows that
> you care about the code and systems you are
> creating.
>
> People
> ------
>
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming
> more and more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with
> Peter Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think
> joining the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>
> :-)
>
> -jon
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
__________________________________________________
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Re: You guys are so funny.
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>Cool. I like being funny :-)
>
>Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
>
></Steven>
>
Count me in! I was thinking we could rewrite Velocity using a self
expressing XSL-based language, you know make it completely declarative
and have the Java done on the back with some kind of BCL scheme... ;-)
>
>
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
> Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
Sorry Steven, I know well both XSLT and Velocity and Velocity
sure is more productive.
Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that
I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly
to those that agree with him.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:stevenn@outerthought.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:34 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: You guys are so funny.
>
>
> Jon wrote:
>
> > People
> > ------
> >
> > Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and
> > more familiar.
> > Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter
> > Donald (credit to
> > Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining
> > the PMC helped).
> > Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> >
> > :-)
>
> Cool. I like being funny :-)
>
> Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
>
> </Steven>
>
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RE: You guys are so funny.
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon wrote:
> People
> ------
>
> Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and
> more familiar.
> Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter
> Donald (credit to
> Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining
> the PMC helped).
> Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
>
> :-)
Cool. I like being funny :-)
Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
</Steven>
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You guys are so funny.
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/2/02 8:44 AM, "costinm@covalent.net" <co...@covalent.net> wrote:
> Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I
> have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter.
>
> DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how
> you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both.
>
> Costin
You guys are so funny.
Bike Sheds
----------
At first, people -1'd the use of Anakia to generate the Jakarta website. But
then when I took the effort to make it simple and easy to use and took away
the bike shed argument, people adopted it and used it all over the world.
On top of it, in *years*, no one has gone and replaced Jakarta-site2 with
anything better. Sure, Craig did a XSLT stylesheet, but no one changed the
main Jakarta site to use it and I still see new Anakia sites on
Sourceforget.net all the time.
The next thing to replace jakarta-site2 will be Maven. Just like with
Anakia, I honestly don't care if you -1 it. You aren't doing the work and
therefore your argument against it is simply a bike shed and is thus not
valid in my opinion.
Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned that you can't
force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for something like
that. You hypocrite.
Learning Technology
-------------------
The argument about learning minor technologies to make money is so silly it
is funny. I have owned/started several companies now and have been
responsible for hiring or directly approving the hiring of about 50-60
people over the last 10 years. Not a huge amount, but not small either.
Never once did I think to myself, hmmm...that person knows minor technology
X better than minor technology Y. What I cared the most about was that the
person had a general good skill set and the aptitude to learn something new.
So, if learning DVSL vs. XSLT is beyond your aptitude, I probably would not
have hired you anyway.
On top of it, the mentality of having to fit into the box because everyone
else is doing it would make me instantly not like your personality. I like
people who are free thinkers and who can think outside of the box. Software
is an art form, not something that you can just cookie cutter produce (and
have it come out being any good). IMHO, it is the free thinkers that have
the most creative and bug free code. Thinking outside of the box shows that
you care about the code and systems you are creating.
People
------
Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and more familiar.
Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter Donald (credit to
Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining the PMC helped).
Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
:-)
-jon
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
> on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
> effort with centipede.
Same here, I'll -1 a switch to either maven or centipede on the projects I
have a vote on until they find a way to work togheter.
DVSL may be a nice language, but XSLT is the standard - regardless of how
you play with the word. I'm fine with a tool that supports both.
I'll probably be -1 on any tool that uses a project descriptor that is not
compatible with Gump ( it can add more information - as long as it's
backward compatible ). If you want changes to the DTD - get it into Gump.
When centipede and maven will reach the same level with gump ( that allow
all apache projects to be built without forcing anything but trivial
changes to the build file ) - we can talk again.
Costin
>
> 2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
>
> So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is
> successful... If its that a large set or all of the projects on
> jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it
> removes my and several others objections). If its to force us all to
> use your pet projects, well good luck. Its certainly not turning out to
> be a springboard for collaboration.
>
> You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it. Work towards
> collaboration. Work towards standards support. Then you'll reach a
> consensus. If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but
> it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve.
>
> -Andy
>
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >
> >> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The
> >>> approaches
> >>> are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> >>> external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs
> >>> generating one
> >>> etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision
> >>> to get
> >>> past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that
> >>> works and
> >>> is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
> >>> coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
> >>> IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
> >>
> >> I can't stand XSL...
> >
> >
> >
> > And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
> >
> > Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
> > want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you
> > don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into
> > DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
> >
> > But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
> > of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple.
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Guys,
Bottom line (you could probably guess these but it needs to be said):
1. I'll -1 the attempt to switch any project to maven that I have a vote
on unless there is a concerted effort to collaborate on a combined
effort with centipede.
2. I'll -1 anything that REQUIRES me to use DVSL if I don't want to.
So what decides (in the minds of the maven community) whether it is
successful... If its that a large set or all of the projects on
jakarta/xml/etc use it well then collaboration is the easiest way (it
removes my and several others objections). If its to force us all to
use your pet projects, well good luck. Its certainly not turning out to
be a springboard for collaboration.
You want the hearts and minds, then we've outlined it. Work towards
collaboration. Work towards standards support. Then you'll reach a
consensus. If not, *shrug* then I'm sure some projects will use it, but
it will imo kind of be a flop of the goals I assume it wants to achieve.
-Andy
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
>> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The
>>> approaches
>>> are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
>>> external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs
>>> generating one
>>> etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision
>>> to get
>>> past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that
>>> works and
>>> is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
>>> coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
>>> IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>>
>> I can't stand XSL...
>
>
>
> And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
>
> Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
> want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you
> don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into
> DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
>
> But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
> of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple.
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/2/02 2:54 AM, "dion@multitask.com.au" <di...@multitask.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>>Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches
>>are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
>>external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one
>>etc. Any 'coming together' is going to be a very difficult decision to get
>>past the maven developer community, because they have a tool that works and
>>is going in a consistent direction from a design perspective, and that
>>coming together will result in much slowing of progress. I don't think,
>>IMHO, either tool is mature enough at this point to merge.
>
>
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...
And I can't be bothered with non-standard transformation languages...
Centipede uses Cocoon, which allows you to use Velocity, or whatever you
want to transform your documents. You aren't locked into XSL if you
don't want. THat's the beauty of it. WIth Maven, you are locked into
DVSL, and there is no other way of doing things. :/
But again, Reality Check: how often do you mess with the look and feel
of a site? If the theme exists--use it. It's that simple.
--
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deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Leo wrote:
> However, the implicit argument "home-brewn solutions are worse than
> standards" simply doesn't always hold true. It doesn't here. Both XSLT
> and DVSL are here at Apache, which, for me, is enough of a "standard".
>
> Basically, all this is to point out masquerading of egotism
> as technical
> discussion. This is all very much unneccessary. I personally don't
> really care what build tool/platform becomes a standard at Apache. I
> also don't care about XSL vs DVSL. As long as it fills the use case
> (which every project at Jakarta and XML has), I'm happy. However, it
> would be __really nice__ to have some kind of internal apache
> standard.
Sorry if my point came across as egotism: I just wanted to explain that
XSLT has a large & lively community, which means adopting XSLT can be
considered a motivation for new people joining in. Or don't we want more
helping hands..?
</Steven>
ps: hey! Jon updated his page: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make the decision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> > Centaven Reasoning: I don't see how we can easily do this. The approaches
> > are wildly different at basic levels, e.g. dvsl vs xsl, entities vs
> > external build files for ant, extending GUMPs descriptor vs generating one
> > etc.
>
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...
you guys are better software architects than this. Whether to use DVSL
or XSL could be use case decided and probably hot-pluggable if it
matters that much. This is possible and not a showstopper at all.
Both projects may need some refactoring. Stop the whining about that it
is not possible. I'm perfectly sure that if y'all want it to be
possible, then it is possible. I've seen GUMP people say it is to some
extent at least, I've seen Centipede people say it is...
It might not be possible, but not for technical reasons. Don't present
it as such.
> > Krysalis lists (in the archive) total 53 posts. Maven
> > dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151.
>
> Lol...guess it is really fact now.
what is?
and it goes on....
> > I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
> > XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
> > counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool'
when
> > they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid
I
> > really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)
>
> First off, Velocity isn't any more home brewed than JSP. Just because
it
> came from 'Sun' doesn't mean it is a standard.
>
> Reality is that JSP was created by someone who never created a web app
in
> his life.
2 definitions of standard:
1) "endorsed by a standards body accepted as authoritive"
2) "being in widespread daily use across the industry"
XSLT is a W3C recommendation so it fits 1), there's dozens of open and
closed source projects using it so it fits 2).
JSP fits 2), sadly so. I blame MS and Sun for flooding the market with
tools released to soon.
I think Velocity fits 2), though I've never seen this measured in any
accurate way. I don't know at all about DVSL (in fact, I don't know much
more about DVSL than that it is quite useful and easy to use).
Having said the above, the argument could be made that XSLT is more of a
standard than DVSL is (which I think can for some of our use cases be
compared to an extent).
However, the implicit argument "home-brewn solutions are worse than
standards" simply doesn't always hold true. It doesn't here. Both XSLT
and DVSL are here at Apache, which, for me, is enough of a "standard".
Basically, all this is to point out masquerading of egotism as technical
discussion. This is all very much unneccessary. I personally don't
really care what build tool/platform becomes a standard at Apache. I
also don't care about XSL vs DVSL. As long as it fills the use case
(which every project at Jakarta and XML has), I'm happy. However, it
would be __really nice__ to have some kind of internal apache standard.
If y'all could agree on at least parts of the 'client API' (ie what I
have to do to maven/centipede/gump/forrest/whatever-enable my projects),
that'd be really cool and I'd help out as much as I can. If this won't
work because of egos, standards, or other annoying things being in the
way, well, that's sad.
cheers,
- Leo
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
>>Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
>>and try to get enough people bragging about it"
>>
>
>It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
>known/used API (DOM4J).
>
>>Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real
>>world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users.
>>
>
>Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.
>
>Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.
>
XSL is hardly comparable to JSP.
>
>>Wasn't this entire thing
>>about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we
>>invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
>>common standards?
>>
>
>Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
>who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
>by real world requirements).
>
>Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.
>
Now he's done it (steven). XSL suites my needs fine. I've no reason to
learn one that is the Apache version of proprietary. When I have a
specific need for it other than "gee lets make so and so use DVSL", I'll
use it. This isn't such a case. Standards don't have to be the BEST
solution or the ONLY solution but I tend to like using things that don't
require me to learn all of your pet projects Jon. I'd end up having no
time but to join a "Cult of Jon's Pet projects" and follow you around
like the next Richard Stallman wondering "but what did it mean" when you
belch.
XSL is not like JSP or EJB there is nothing horribly wrong with it.
I think its reasonable for anything that you say "QUICK use this" to at
least attempt to support standards.
-Andy
>
>-jon
>
>
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>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
>
>>Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
>>and try to get enough people bragging about it"
>
>
> It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
> known/used API (DOM4J).
Language != technology.
DOM4J is technology. THe DVSL markup is language. It just so happens
that you use DOM4J in the parts where you change things--but DVSL is
where you mark what you change and when.
> Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.
>
> Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.
And it doesn't mean that Velocity is better than JSP. I personally am
not a JSP fan, but different tools for different fools. Quit comparing
apples and oranges. Let's get back to your thought provoking posts.
>
>
> Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
> who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
> by real world requirements).
>
> Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.
>
I haven't had a need to. If I can do everything I need outside of DVSL,
using standard technologies that can be used in other settings, what
incentive do I have? Besides Xalan is an Apache project, as is Xerces.
We use them. So how is that *not* using a technology that is *well*
supported.
As to your assertation that commercial or academic interests are not
valid motivations, you forget that they *are* real world requirements.
In fact I would assert that development efforts not originated in some
way by commercial or academic needs are efforts that are done for the
sake of doing them.
We have to eat. I eat because I program. I use Apache products because
they are better than many commercial products for the same purpose, and
because I can convince my managers that we can build our solutions with
them.
But I degress...
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: In defense of DVSL and XSLT
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@finemaltcoding.com>.
James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com> writes:
> I personally have found uses for both. You may notice that for print
> documentation in maven we are using XSLT rather than DVSL. At that point
> all the generated documents and user documents are in the same
> intermediate format and no further access to java objects is necessary.
> However when generating the intermediate documents (or generating code
> and build files for maven itself) DVSL is much easier.
Exactly. Use the right tool for the job.
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In defense of DVSL and XSLT
Posted by James Taylor <jt...@4lane.com>.
> Granted: I use XSLT and am able to live with it. Nothing to be ashamed
> of, I guess. I've briefly looked into DVSL when Maven was gathering
> momentum, and it was not the kind of quantum-leap technology that would
> change my judgement on XSLT.
As a user and supporter of both, I just want to point out that DVSL and
XSLT have different strengths. DVSL is declarative like XSLT, but it
generates text rather than a node graph. Therefore DVSL lacks some of
the cool features of XSLT like xsl:attribute-set, xsl:copy, and others.
However DVSL is much better at accessing beans. It's just velocity, so
you push whatever you want onto the context and go. Much easier than
dealing with extension functions.
I personally have found uses for both. You may notice that for print
documentation in maven we are using XSLT rather than DVSL. At that point
all the generated documents and user documents are in the same
intermediate format and no further access to java objects is necessary.
However when generating the intermediate documents (or generating code
and build files for maven itself) DVSL is much easier.
-- jt
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You makethedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon wrote:
> on 5/2/02 12:22 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
>
> > My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely*
> because they
> > prefer XSLT instead of DVSL.
>
> Where the heck did you see someone being 'attacked'? Geez.
> People. You need
> to quit reading into someone saying "THEY" don't like XSLT
> vs. whatever else
> you have made up in your mind.
OK, 'not being accepted' was perhaps the better wording.
> > I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
> > XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
> > counterproductive when projects are considered to be less
> 'cool' when
> > they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions.
> I'm afraid I
> > really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)
>
> First off, Velocity isn't any more home brewed than JSP. Just
> because it
> came from 'Sun' doesn't mean it is a standard.
Right on. XSLT is a standard and it has a lively community. 600+
messages in xsl-list@lists.mulberrytech.com in 10 days. But you son't
seem to like the language, so I'll leave it to that.
> > Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
> > explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.
>
> Clearly you aren't an idiot. I'm sure you can figure it out
> on your own.
I'll take that as a compliment, and hopefully I find time to figure it
out on my own.
Hehe, I'm glad I read http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jon.html prior to
jumping in. "Talking about what an asshole he is (or defending him) does
nothing more than waste energy." I'll focus that energy in trying to
handle the Forrest part of an eventual Maven/Centipede/Gump
consolidation, if that happens.
Cheers,
</Steven>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make
thedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/2/02 12:22 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely* because they
> prefer XSLT instead of DVSL.
Where the heck did you see someone being 'attacked'? Geez. People. You need
to quit reading into someone saying "THEY" don't like XSLT vs. whatever else
you have made up in your mind.
> I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
> XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
> counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool' when
> they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid I
> really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)
First off, Velocity isn't any more home brewed than JSP. Just because it
came from 'Sun' doesn't mean it is a standard.
Reality is that JSP was created by someone who never created a web app in
his life.
> Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
> explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.
Clearly you aren't an idiot. I'm sure you can figure it out on your own.
-jon
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon wrote:
> > Wasn't this entire thing
> > about community building? So what do we really want: using
> technology we
> > invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
> > common standards?
>
> Using technology that is well supported, developed by a
> community of people
> who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests
> (instead, motived
> by real world requirements).
>
> Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it
> until you try it.
Granted: I use XSLT and am able to live with it. Nothing to be ashamed
of, I guess. I've briefly looked into DVSL when Maven was gathering
momentum, and it was not the kind of quantum-leap technology that would
change my judgement on XSLT.
My point is that projects are being attacked here *solely* because they
prefer XSLT instead of DVSL. I'm perfectly happy when people don't like
XSLT and scratch their own itches, but I do find it quite
counterproductive when projects are considered to be less 'cool' when
they prefer to use standards above home-brown solutions. I'm afraid I
really don't want to know your opinion on Xalan and Cocoon, then :-)
You know what? Java isn't open source, neither, and lots of academic
work goes into that commercial language, too :-)
Oh well, perhaps this might become more productive if you start to
explain me what I need to do to create a Forrest plugin for Maven.
</Steven>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision
(was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 5/1/02 11:58 PM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
> and try to get enough people bragging about it"
It isn't a little language... It is Velocity templates using a well
known/used API (DOM4J).
> Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real
> world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users.
Just like there are more JSP users than Velocity users.
Still doesn't mean that JSP is better than Velocity.
> Wasn't this entire thing
> about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we
> invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
> common standards?
Using technology that is well supported, developed by a community of people
who are not motivated by commercial or academic interests (instead, motived
by real world requirements).
Heck, I bet you haven't even tried DVSL, so don't knock it until you try it.
-jon
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Centaven and Friends (was Re: You make thedecision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!))
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Jon wrote:
> I can agree with that. Hell, the dvsl vs. xsl is a showstopper for me.
>
> I can't stand XSL...
>
> > I'm also a little worried about the size/vocality of the centipede
> > developer community. Krysalis lists (in the archive) total
> 53 posts. Maven
> > dev (includes cvs) has 780, and the user list 151.
>
> Lol...guess it is really fact now.
Which basically boils down to "let's just invent our own little language
and try to get enough people bragging about it"
Come on, this isn't serious anymore. Sorry to say, but in the real
world, there are more XSLT than dvsl users. Wasn't this entire thing
about community building? So what do we really want: using technology we
invented on our own, alienating possible new users, or sticking to
common standards?
</Steven>
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