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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2002/06/14 03:05:42 UTC
Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon?
>
> Thomas L Roche wrote:
>
> >Struts can do pure-XML: see
> >
> >http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-2002/jw-0201-strutsxslt_p.html
> >
> >But can Cocoon be made to handle JSPs? Why I ask:
> >
> >Yes, Cocoon is cool, and JSPs are icky-poo. If one is developing a new
> >site, from scratch, Cocoon would seem to be the way to go. However,
> >there are a lotta JSPs out there, and one can reasonably surmise that
> >the vast majority of Java-ish websites have at least some legacy JSPs.
> >So consider the possible thought processes of members of two groups of
> >Javans as they plan future activity:
> >
> >
> Like this (haven't tried it myself)?
>
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/generators/jsp-generator.html
>
> >* site developers/maintainers
> >
> > Unfortunately only a tiny minority are at present fully XML/XSL
> > compliant. (I suspect: feel free to confirm/confront with real
> > data.) One suspects the vast majority are "vanilla" Model 1, with a
> > minority having gone to something like Struts, Velocity, etc. These
> > folks aren't especially stupid or lazy, but they've got other things
> > to do, and they've got legacy that is "good enough."
> >
> > If a "typical enduser" is motivated enough to go XML-centric,
> > wouldn't it be a lot easier and less risky to migrate toward
> > something like Struts (2 or 2x), than to Big Bang straight to
> > Cocoon? (I know about Struts--I neglect Velocity etc because I know
> > so little about them.) Or is it Real Easy to migrate JSPs to XSPs?
> >
> >
> Cocoon is what I like to think of as 2.0-centric. Meaning it has a
> higher "initial cost" but if used well, should
> reduce your cost of maintaining it over time. Its not the first release
> that usually hurts, its the second...third...etc.
> Costs go up as your software continues to develop. Cocoon can help with
> this by more completely seperating
> your style, data, logic, etc. (as you cross the learning curve of
> Cocoon and use it in a couple apps, that learning curve goes down)
>
> Is Cocoon appropriate for you farm of dreamweaver users? Probably not.
> But Really if you think about it neither is JSP.
> (I hear Velocity is nice for that) I suspect as the tools improve
> Cocoon will be better for this as you can seperate your applications
> more as far as logic and style and content, etc. XSLT has a bit of a
> learning curve, but I often wonder if I'd find it so hard if I were less
> of a programmer type. I think there is a lot more opportunity for
> non-programmers to work with the style XSLT in the end. But case in
> point. . . those tools aren't there yet.
>
> I don't feel that its any less risky to adopt Struts and migrate to
> Cocoon than just goto Cocoon with maybe JSPs running through the JSP
> generator (based on the assumption that the JSP generator is a workable
> solution) and migrate those to XSPs/etc over time. The areas I'm most
> concerned with Cocoon have to do with performance under load. Then
> again, if its good enough for NASA...... (no mars lander jokes or you
> get thwapped!)
>
> >* tools builders
> >
> > I'd like to work on Cocoon tooling, and I suspect many managers
> > would too. But they've gotta think about how much resource they can
> > devote to any particular project, and what the market for their
> > product would be. And, again, incrementality (of effort) and
> > marketing (of product) would both seem (IMHO) to favor going toward
> > Struts 2x.
> >
> >These concerns would be mitigated if there was an easier migration
> >path to Cocoon. (I.e. a larval stage before going to pupa :-)
> >Is there? Or am I missing something?
> >
> >
> Above, you see the JSP-generator. Next I give you XML-Form which even
> states that its heavily influenced by struts.
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard.html
> -- Danger, its work in progress. This is the last major hole in
> Cocoon, its nearly plugged (hence the .81 version number), but it may
> change a bit.
>
> * Principal flaws in Cocoon *
>
> The documentation is getting better but still sucks.
>
> The community that supports it is composed of XML and Avalon folks who
> only occasionally delve into english explanations of what the heck
> things are, preferring to speak XML-ian and Avalonian most of the time.
> (Watch a mail list and you'll see what I mean, in fact I don't think
> any of them go a whole sentence without using SoC or IoC...and if you
> don't know what those stand for well you'll feel pretty lost), where the
> Struts folks are generally more geared towards the rest of us.
>
> Marketing problem. What is Cocoon? An XML Framework? (well your
> sources nor your output, nor your transformations necessarily have to be
> in XML...really only the sitemap has to be XML...but then again IIRC
> struts has XML config files too...), A publishing framework? (that
> begs the question on what is publishing), you can have forms and reports
> coming out of Cocoon.
> Where, Struts is an MVC framework for JSPs simple to say.
>
> Heavy. Cocoon is heavier than JSP (assuming precompilation). On the
> other hand, I'll bet the caching and pooling pays off under load, but it
> has a heavy init time. The load testing I've done is very promising though.
>
> In summary, If you are satisfied with *ick* JSPs (Java-ASPs, Inverted
> Servlets) and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and never
> could need or want for more stick with Struts.
>
> If you've got multiple content input types and sources, transformation
> types, styles, output types, etc. and want to lower cost of development
> over time, I'll bet you'll probably win with Cocoon once you've mastered
> XSLT and friends. Do me a favor, don't develop a major application
> around it without first understanding the concepts (and making sure the
> team does). There is nothing MORE cryptic than bad XSLT (and there are
> even examples of it within Cocoon).
>
> Granted, if I were to work with a bunch of people today, this very
> moment, who all knew JSP, and I had ambitious performance and load
> requirements, I'd probably not choose Cocoon yet. I've not used it in a
> number of production situations like I have JSP. I don't know what will
> happen if I add 1.5 million requests. (where I do know what will happen
> with JSP). But if I had a small->medium internal app that I would have
> to continue to maintain over time.. I'd probably use Cocoon. Or if I
> had a small website with a reasonable and/or predictable number of hits,
> where maintainability was a principal concern I'd use Cocoon.
>
> Cocoon versus JSP is much like the PERL (or VB) versus Java argument if
> today was 1998 or so.
>
> Anyhow, like I said, I feel its time to start moving toward Cocoon and
> XML/XSLT. Approach it like any other new technology.
> Here are the sites using it, perhaps one would offer up the statistics
> http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/livesites.html. I've given you more
> reasons not to use Cocoon in this than TO, don't get me wrong, I think
> JSP totally and completely sucks, but I wouldn't use Cocoon unless I had
> the right team in place to make proper use of it and had passed the
> proper learning curve. (at least not for a major, high load, mission
> critical application).
>
> Cocoon is showing a lot of momentum, and I think is the future if not
> the present. I think anyone who isn't looking into it and its
> underlying technologies is really doing themselves a disservice.
>
> I'm slowly migrating what little web-development I do these days towards
> Cocoon and investing in learning its underlying technologies. I even go
> so far to advocate its use in certain situations. (and maintain as I've
> always maintained, that JSP sucks nearly as much as its parent...ASP).
> Some folks may think I'm jumping the gun. Had the same problem when I
> moved from VB to Java in 1998. (still did some VB until around mid-1999).
>
> (So now I shall be flamed by the Cocoon-crowd and the JSP crowd alike. .
> . Thats how I shall know I'm right ;-) )
>
> -Andy
>
> PS - Cocoon is not the hammer, no matter the tool one can always create
> crappy applications. The question is whether you have to fight your
> tool to create good ones. I would argue you do for JSP. (maybe others
> feel differently)
>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Juglist mailing list
> >Juglist@trijug.org
> >http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Juglist mailing list
> Juglist@trijug.org
> http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon?
Posted by Jorge De Flon <jd...@netappsmexico.com>.
Hi,
I am new in this forum and in cocoon, but it seems very promising.
I found your reply very interesting and complete too.
I also think that JSP are far from being the best solution, even with
struts. but I was using struts with velocity and it worked very well.
The doubts that I have about cocoon are performance and tools.
I work with XMLSpy from altova and it supports very well XML in general and
XSLT in particular. It is not integrated with cocoon but it is a very good
tool for the task (XSLT), so the only thing that I am dubitious is
performance: is there a benchmark or a comparison against something else
somewhere?
thanks for any commentary
Jorge DeFlon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "cocoon users" <co...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Juglist] Struts 2x vs larval Cocoon?
> >
> > Thomas L Roche wrote:
> >
> > >Struts can do pure-XML: see
> > >
> > >http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-02-2002/jw-0201-strutsxslt_p.html
> > >
> > >But can Cocoon be made to handle JSPs? Why I ask:
> > >
> > >Yes, Cocoon is cool, and JSPs are icky-poo. If one is developing a new
> > >site, from scratch, Cocoon would seem to be the way to go. However,
> > >there are a lotta JSPs out there, and one can reasonably surmise that
> > >the vast majority of Java-ish websites have at least some legacy JSPs.
> > >So consider the possible thought processes of members of two groups of
> > >Javans as they plan future activity:
> > >
> > >
> > Like this (haven't tried it myself)?
> >
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/userdocs/generators/jsp-generator.html
> >
> > >* site developers/maintainers
> > >
> > > Unfortunately only a tiny minority are at present fully XML/XSL
> > > compliant. (I suspect: feel free to confirm/confront with real
> > > data.) One suspects the vast majority are "vanilla" Model 1, with a
> > > minority having gone to something like Struts, Velocity, etc. These
> > > folks aren't especially stupid or lazy, but they've got other things
> > > to do, and they've got legacy that is "good enough."
> > >
> > > If a "typical enduser" is motivated enough to go XML-centric,
> > > wouldn't it be a lot easier and less risky to migrate toward
> > > something like Struts (2 or 2x), than to Big Bang straight to
> > > Cocoon? (I know about Struts--I neglect Velocity etc because I know
> > > so little about them.) Or is it Real Easy to migrate JSPs to XSPs?
> > >
> > >
> > Cocoon is what I like to think of as 2.0-centric. Meaning it has a
> > higher "initial cost" but if used well, should
> > reduce your cost of maintaining it over time. Its not the first release
> > that usually hurts, its the second...third...etc.
> > Costs go up as your software continues to develop. Cocoon can help with
> > this by more completely seperating
> > your style, data, logic, etc. (as you cross the learning curve of
> > Cocoon and use it in a couple apps, that learning curve goes down)
> >
> > Is Cocoon appropriate for you farm of dreamweaver users? Probably not.
> > But Really if you think about it neither is JSP.
> > (I hear Velocity is nice for that) I suspect as the tools improve
> > Cocoon will be better for this as you can seperate your applications
> > more as far as logic and style and content, etc. XSLT has a bit of a
> > learning curve, but I often wonder if I'd find it so hard if I were less
> > of a programmer type. I think there is a lot more opportunity for
> > non-programmers to work with the style XSLT in the end. But case in
> > point. . . those tools aren't there yet.
> >
> > I don't feel that its any less risky to adopt Struts and migrate to
> > Cocoon than just goto Cocoon with maybe JSPs running through the JSP
> > generator (based on the assumption that the JSP generator is a workable
> > solution) and migrate those to XSPs/etc over time. The areas I'm most
> > concerned with Cocoon have to do with performance under load. Then
> > again, if its good enough for NASA...... (no mars lander jokes or you
> > get thwapped!)
> >
> > >* tools builders
> > >
> > > I'd like to work on Cocoon tooling, and I suspect many managers
> > > would too. But they've gotta think about how much resource they can
> > > devote to any particular project, and what the market for their
> > > product would be. And, again, incrementality (of effort) and
> > > marketing (of product) would both seem (IMHO) to favor going toward
> > > Struts 2x.
> > >
> > >These concerns would be mitigated if there was an easier migration
> > >path to Cocoon. (I.e. a larval stage before going to pupa :-)
> > >Is there? Or am I missing something?
> > >
> > >
> > Above, you see the JSP-generator. Next I give you XML-Form which even
> > states that its heavily influenced by struts.
> >
http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/howto/xmlform-wizard/howto-xmlform-wizard.html
> > -- Danger, its work in progress. This is the last major hole in
> > Cocoon, its nearly plugged (hence the .81 version number), but it may
> > change a bit.
> >
> > * Principal flaws in Cocoon *
> >
> > The documentation is getting better but still sucks.
> >
> > The community that supports it is composed of XML and Avalon folks who
> > only occasionally delve into english explanations of what the heck
> > things are, preferring to speak XML-ian and Avalonian most of the time.
> > (Watch a mail list and you'll see what I mean, in fact I don't think
> > any of them go a whole sentence without using SoC or IoC...and if you
> > don't know what those stand for well you'll feel pretty lost), where the
> > Struts folks are generally more geared towards the rest of us.
> >
> > Marketing problem. What is Cocoon? An XML Framework? (well your
> > sources nor your output, nor your transformations necessarily have to be
> > in XML...really only the sitemap has to be XML...but then again IIRC
> > struts has XML config files too...), A publishing framework? (that
> > begs the question on what is publishing), you can have forms and reports
> > coming out of Cocoon.
> > Where, Struts is an MVC framework for JSPs simple to say.
> >
> > Heavy. Cocoon is heavier than JSP (assuming precompilation). On the
> > other hand, I'll bet the caching and pooling pays off under load, but it
> > has a heavy init time. The load testing I've done is very promising
though.
> >
> > In summary, If you are satisfied with *ick* JSPs (Java-ASPs, Inverted
> > Servlets) and think its the greatest thing since sliced bread and never
> > could need or want for more stick with Struts.
> >
> > If you've got multiple content input types and sources, transformation
> > types, styles, output types, etc. and want to lower cost of development
> > over time, I'll bet you'll probably win with Cocoon once you've mastered
> > XSLT and friends. Do me a favor, don't develop a major application
> > around it without first understanding the concepts (and making sure the
> > team does). There is nothing MORE cryptic than bad XSLT (and there are
> > even examples of it within Cocoon).
> >
> > Granted, if I were to work with a bunch of people today, this very
> > moment, who all knew JSP, and I had ambitious performance and load
> > requirements, I'd probably not choose Cocoon yet. I've not used it in a
> > number of production situations like I have JSP. I don't know what will
> > happen if I add 1.5 million requests. (where I do know what will happen
> > with JSP). But if I had a small->medium internal app that I would have
> > to continue to maintain over time.. I'd probably use Cocoon. Or if I
> > had a small website with a reasonable and/or predictable number of hits,
> > where maintainability was a principal concern I'd use Cocoon.
> >
> > Cocoon versus JSP is much like the PERL (or VB) versus Java argument if
> > today was 1998 or so.
> >
> > Anyhow, like I said, I feel its time to start moving toward Cocoon and
> > XML/XSLT. Approach it like any other new technology.
> > Here are the sites using it, perhaps one would offer up the statistics
> > http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/link/livesites.html. I've given you more
> > reasons not to use Cocoon in this than TO, don't get me wrong, I think
> > JSP totally and completely sucks, but I wouldn't use Cocoon unless I had
> > the right team in place to make proper use of it and had passed the
> > proper learning curve. (at least not for a major, high load, mission
> > critical application).
> >
> > Cocoon is showing a lot of momentum, and I think is the future if not
> > the present. I think anyone who isn't looking into it and its
> > underlying technologies is really doing themselves a disservice.
> >
> > I'm slowly migrating what little web-development I do these days towards
> > Cocoon and investing in learning its underlying technologies. I even go
> > so far to advocate its use in certain situations. (and maintain as I've
> > always maintained, that JSP sucks nearly as much as its parent...ASP).
> > Some folks may think I'm jumping the gun. Had the same problem when I
> > moved from VB to Java in 1998. (still did some VB until around
mid-1999).
> >
> > (So now I shall be flamed by the Cocoon-crowd and the JSP crowd alike. .
> > . Thats how I shall know I'm right ;-) )
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> > PS - Cocoon is not the hammer, no matter the tool one can always create
> > crappy applications. The question is whether you have to fight your
> > tool to create good ones. I would argue you do for JSP. (maybe others
> > feel differently)
> >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >Juglist mailing list
> > >Juglist@trijug.org
> > >http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Juglist mailing list
> > Juglist@trijug.org
> > http://lists.denveronline.net/mailman/listinfo/juglist
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
> a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Please check that your question has not already been answered in the
> FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
>
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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FAQ before posting. <http://xml.apache.org/cocoon/faq/index.html>
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <co...@xml.apache.org>