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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> on 2009/01/13 11:17:18 UTC
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
podlings submit their reports on time.
-Bertrand
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> David Crossley wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > >
> > > I had asked Dave if he would work on [a Marvin-like script], but I don't
> know that anything
> > > got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
> >
> > Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
> > I can do that - when i find the time.
>
> Thanks. To be clear, you're not the Dave to whom I referred. And I
> appreciate your offer. :-)
:-) ... Well it spurred me to get on to it.
Please see the thread:
Re: remember when each project report is due
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.apache.incubator.general/21048/focus=21053
-David
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 2/17/09, Craig L Russell <Cr...@sun.com> wrote:
>
> On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:58 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
>>
>> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
>> training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
>> training them to leave it all up to someone else.
>>
> I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
> months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
> time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
>
> But I agree that one or more of the podling community needs to want to
> take on the responsibilities of chairing the PMC ultimately, and
> should not depend on the mentors. One of the criteria for graduation
> should be the readiness of the PPMC to become a PMC with all the
> reporting that that involves.
I think that it's both important and useful that the content is
created by the community. But asking Mentors to be responsible for
seeing that a report was submitted probably makes sense. With my IPMC
hat on, I would like to know when a mentor has submitted a report on
the podling.
For example, I would have liked to give the XAP community up to the
deadline to submit a report, and if they failed to do so write up a
report of my own as a mentor.
Robert
>
> Craig
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
> months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
> time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
But does that mean advising & assisting, or doing the work?
--- Noel
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Feb 16, 2009, at 6:58 PM, David Crossley wrote:
>
> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
> training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
> training them to leave it all up to someone else.
>
I believe that while a podling is getting organized (first three
months) it's unlikely that they will "get" reporting, and during that
time, the mentors must step up and show the way.
But I agree that one or more of the podling community needs to want to
take on the responsibilities of chairing the PMC ultimately, and
should not depend on the mentors. One of the criteria for graduation
should be the readiness of the PPMC to become a PMC with all the
reporting that that involves.
Craig
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I had asked Dave if he would work on [a Marvin-like script], but I don't
know that anything
> > got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
> Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
> I can do that - when i find the time.
Thanks. To be clear, you're not the Dave to whom I referred. And I
appreciate your offer. :-)
> I actually think that reporting is up to each project, not the mentors.
> If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not training the podlings in
the ASF way.
I agree that the community is responsible, and have said so. If the
Commuity doesn't step up, I don't know that I would want the Mentor to write
the report for them; certainly not a glowing one. The Commuity needs to
learn to follow ASF procedure, and the Board requires quarterly reports.
But projects come to us in part to build and maintain a vibrant community,
not just to participate in our brand and infrastructure, and active Mentors
can help with that, and advise the PMC when there are issues. If a Mentor
makes a note that the Community hasn't file a report, then at least we know
that someone is paying attention and participating.
At least that's how I see it.
> Why do people need reminding? The procedure and when each month report is
due, is crystal clear
Why do we have Marvin? People forget, get distracted, have other things to
do.
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC
>
> I had asked Dave if he would work on that, but I don't know that anything
> got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
Upayavira suggested something useful in another thread.
I can do that - when i find the time.
I actually think that reporting is up to each project,
not the mentors.
Why do people need reminding? The procedure and
when each month report is due, is crystal clear at
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ReportingSchedule
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
http://incubator.apache.org/clutch.html
If PPMCs are not interested in their own projects,
then the Incubator has massive problems looming.
If we keep relying on mentors, then we are not
training the podlings in the ASF way. We are actually
training them to leave it all up to someone else.
For each podling, a potential chair needs to
emerge from their number. If no PPMC member
is interested in the PMC-level issues, then
we are failing.
-David
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC
I had asked Dave if he would work on that, but I don't know that anything
got finished. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by Martijn Dashorst <ma...@gmail.com>.
Provided that we get a Marvin like script for PPMC's to get notified
of a pending report, in my opinion:
- the first missing report should be dealt with by the Mentors on the
podling-dev list (to engage the community), and the podling has to
report the next month.
- the second consecutive missing report should invoke response from
the Incubator PMC (perhaps the Chair), to the podling dev-list, with a
stern warning that 3 strikes is out. A PMC member should try to work
with the community to get a report out, and see what is happening with
the Mentors.
- the third consecutive missing report should invoke termination of
the podling. If the podling community can't bother to report 3 times
in a row, the community is MIA and we can use the cycles in a better
way.
Now what should happen when a podling is on and off with reporting to
a schedule? I don't know. Probably a sign that the Mentors are
overworked and that additional guidance capacity is necessary.
Martijn
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Craig Russell wrote:
>
>> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
> non-report?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> A practical problem [is] that reports are submitted right up to the
deadline
Yes, that's something I discussed last month, and again today with Craig.
> Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
> whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start.
Why a confidential report? By saying that a report should be confidential,
you appear to be implying something.
> To be practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
> month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
> of the podling.
Well, that's what I did last month, and we had everything on time. This
time, we did not have reports from multiple projects.
--- Noel
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
> > right up to the deadline
> I'm not sure I understand your point. The deadline is the Wednesday a
> week ahead of the board meeting.
I believe that Robert was pointing out that the reality (aka, the
practical problem) is that people are submitting right up to the (board)
deadline, and not getting them in when we've asked for them.
> I think that mentors have the responsibility to create a report on
> behalf of the podlings to start. Yes, it's all on them. After a few
> reports, the mentor gets the community to step up and create the
> reports. The mentor then just needs to monitor things and step in if
> things don't get done.
This depends on what you mean by responsible. Unless the Mentor is going
to be the PMC Chair, the Community had better start getting it done. We
may consider the Mentor to be responsible to the PMC, but I think that it
would be fair for the Mentor to be responsible for saying *something*,
even if just to say that the Community is not meeting its responsibility
of getting a proper report done. And in that case, we'd consider it as if
they had missed the report, and start to consider appropriate and
corrective action.
> Perhaps the missing link is a reminder
Volunteers for the automation task?
--- Noel
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Feb 16, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On 1/19/09, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>> Craig Russell wrote:
>>
>>>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure
>>>> "their"
>>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
> right up to the deadline
I'm not sure I understand your point. The deadline is the Wednesday a
week ahead of the board meeting.
>
>
>> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get
>> overwhelmed,
>> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
>> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can
>> argue
>> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver
>> each
>> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
>> non-report?
>
> Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
> whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start.
And what is the motivation for the mentors who missed the incubator
report to make a special private report?
> To be
> practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
> month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
> of the podling.
I think I'm on a different page here.
I think that mentors have the responsibility to create a report on
behalf of the podlings to start. Yes, it's all on them. After a few
reports, the mentor gets the community to step up and create the
reports. The mentor then just needs to monitor things and step in if
things don't get done.
It takes less than an hour for a mentor to create a report. Perhaps
the missing link is a reminder to the mentors (directly, on their own
personal email address) to prepare and submit the report or get the
podlings to do so.
Craig
>
>
> Robert
>
>>
>> --- Noel
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 1/19/09, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Craig Russell wrote:
>
>> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>>> podlings submit their reports on time.
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
A practical problem with this approach is that reports are submitted
right up to the deadline
> Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
> caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
> responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
> that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
> month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
> non-report?
Asking the mentors to submit a confidential report (on private)
whenever a report is missed would be reasonable start. To be
practical, would need to pull the report dealine earlier with the
month to give mentors and PMC the chance to create a report on behalf
of the podling.
Robert
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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RE: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator Reports?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Craig Russell wrote:
> > To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
>> podlings submit their reports on time.
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
Personally, I see that that people, Mentors included, get overwhelmed,
caught up, or simply don't get it down. And communal, collective,
responsibility is our philosophy. OK, fair enough, perhaps we can argue
that the report is a singular exception, as it is for me to deliver each
month. In any event, what actions should we take in the event of
non-report?
--- Noel
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
On Jan 13, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman
> <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <noel@devtech.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as
>>>> to the
>>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report.
>>>> Perhaps not
>>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
>
>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
Either Bertrand is channeling me, or I'm channeling Bertrand. ;-)
Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
podlings submit their reports on time.
Craig
>
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: What should be the consequences of missing required Incubator
Reports?
Posted by Bill Stoddard <wg...@gmail.com>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>
>>> ...On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 5:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think that it is, unfortunately, time to have a discussion as to the
>>>> consequences of what happens when a project misses its report. Perhaps not
>>>> a one-off, but on a becoming regular process....
>>>>
>
>
>> To me it sounds that the Mentors are sleeping....
>>
>
> Totally agree, it is the mentors responsibility to make sure "their"
> podlings submit their reports on time.
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
>
Bill (Bluesky podling mentor) sheepishly agrees.
Bill
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