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Posted to community@apache.org by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org> on 2003/01/09 05:58:37 UTC
Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 12:50:55PM -0800, Greg Stein wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:17:38PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
> >...
> > - he was criticized for a message that he made
> > in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
> > that intent.
>
> To be honest, I usually find people who say "but that was a joke" are simply
> trying to cover up a social blunder under the ruse of "you didn't get it."
> Whether the case here or not, it certainly was non-obvious.
FYI,
Jakarta has a tradition of people like Jon Stevens bitching at everyone
else for being all talk and no action. This is many people's first
exposure to the idea of meritocracy. It's no good whining about "it's
all wrong, someone should fix it"; there is no 'someone', there's just
*you*. Something wrong with the website? Send a patch. Think there
should be a newsletter? Congratulations, you're the editor. Want a
Wiki? Bug someone for karma and go install it. This is not anarchy and
it's *not* democracy, it's a meritocracy. The Doers' opinion has more
weight than the Talkers. Stuff happens because people make it happen.
Generally it happens with some form of consensus in the larger community,
but once the "what" is agreed on, the "how" is up to people willing to do
the work.
I think that is what Andy was attempting to convey. I 'got' the joke
immediately because plays on an underlying theme at Jakarta. One
evidently not present here.
> And why did he unsubscribe? We can make guesses, but that's about it. Unless
> he clarifies further in his blog or posts elsewhere...
>
> > "Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
> > the appropriate model for group projects.
>
> Right.
Slogans deliberately oversimplify. "Just Do It" must be compared to
"Just Talk About It". If it comes to slogans, I know which I'd prefer.
> > Yes, it makes things happen. But
> > when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
> > sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
> > examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
> > concensus.
100% consensus on things like how a Wiki system should work is never
going to emerge. After 80% consensus on the broad issues (like whether
to have a Wiki at all) emerges, it's best to get something (anything)
done, rather than wait for the last 20%.
> > Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject, "Just Do
> > It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
> > potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code.
> > Am I missing something?
>
> You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
> inconsiderate towards your peers. "I don't care about your opinion, I'm just
> getting it done." It certainly doesn't help foster a community based on
> mutual respect.
Attacking the "Just Do It" slogan is easy. It's a straw man. The
*actual* POV that (I guess) Andy was promoting is more complex: YES, by
all means gain overall consensus, but once you've established "what",
don't let the differing opinions on "how" prevent action. In this view,
it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
--Jeff
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 05:51:55PM +1100, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 10:26:41PM -0800, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
> >
> > And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
> > and make changes and adjustments.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
> > it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
Costin: spot on. Thx.
> If you like. Then what I'm describing is in this article Sam once
> posted:
>
> http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
Ah. Reliance on a "higher authority". I think there is a term for that...
:-)
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 10:26:41PM -0800, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
>
> And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
> and make changes and adjustments.
Agreed.
> I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
> it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
If you like. Then what I'm describing is in this article Sam once
posted:
http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
--Jeff
> Costin
...
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>>ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>>
>
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
Rolling On the Floor Laughing My *** Off.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
> >
> > ROFLMAO!!! :-D
> >
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
> Nice for a wiki page or something :)
AcronymFinder is our friend:
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.asp?String=exact&Acronym=ROFLMAO&Find=Find
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Friday, January 10, 2003 6:44 AM -0800 Aaron Bannert
<aa...@clove.org> wrote:
> I got it from fink, which gets it from this URL (part of netbsd?)
> http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/basesrc/games/wtf/
> wtf?rev=%v&content-type=text/plain
I tried to install it last night from fink and figured out that that
URL is wrong. It should be:
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/games/wtf/wtf?rev=
HEAD
You also need the acronyms file from:
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/misc/acronym
s?rev=HEAD
NetBSD's CVSWeb is *really* slow. -- justin
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
I got it from fink, which gets it from this URL (part of netbsd?)
http://cvsweb.netbsd.org/bsdweb.cgi/~checkout~/basesrc/games/wtf/
wtf?rev=%v&content-type=text/plain
-aaron
On Friday, January 10, 2003, at 04:15 AM, Ben Laurie wrote:
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
>> aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
>> ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
>> (wtf is a cool utility)
>
> I like - where does it come from?
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
> ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
>
> (wtf is a cool utility)
I like - where does it come from?
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
Re: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
aaron@gandalf% wtf roflmao
ROFLMAO: rolling on floor laughing my ass off
(wtf is a cool utility)
-aaron
On Thursday, January 9, 2003, at 02:58 PM, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
>
>>
>> ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>>
>
> I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
> Nice for a wiki page or something :)
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ma...@mvdb.net>.
>
> ROFLMAO!!! :-D
>
I cannot make anything of this.. Please help me :)
Nice for a wiki page or something :)
Mvgr,
Martin
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> If SubWiki is used any time soon, dumping the history seems reasonable.
> Finally, my chance to rewrite history .... ;)
ROFLMAO!!! :-D
--- Noel
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Daniel Rall <dl...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Greg Stein wrote (technical details omitted):
> > *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
> > data out of UseModWiki.
>
> Sounds like your approach follows the truism that in the worst case any open
> source code that can read its own data can be instrumented to become its own
> migration tool.
>
> What would you guess is the relative effort to preserve the history? I'm
> just wondering if the history value at the cut-over point will be worth the
> incremental effort, unless you want to do it anyway as a proof-of-concept
> for similar migrations.
If SubWiki is used any time soon, dumping the history seems reasonable.
Finally, my chance to rewrite history .... ;)
RE: wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Greg Stein wrote (technical details omitted):
> *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
> data out of UseModWiki.
Sounds like your approach follows the truism that in the worst case any open
source code that can read its own data can be instrumented to become its own
migration tool.
What would you guess is the relative effort to preserve the history? I'm
just wondering if the history value at the cut-over point will be worth the
incremental effort, unless you want to do it anyway as a proof-of-concept
for similar migrations.
--- Noel
wiki data migration (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 01:22:02PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Because wiki's tend to fill with content rapdily, once you
> > > use them for a little while you are pretty much locked in.
>
> > Counterpoint?
>
> Personally, I'm getting mileage out of UseModWiki, despite its issues. I
> wouldn't want to have to move every page in the Wiki, but I could cut &
> paste the content for our section if I didn't have a migration tool. At the
> moment, the content volume might not warrant a tool, and if the content
> volume did, it could certainly be written.
Migrating the latest pages will be easy. I know enough Perl to do that.
Migrating history would be tougher, but should still be doable. (I'd dump it
all out and write a Python script to load it into SVN via the language
bindings to the svn repository)
So, no... *if* we migrate to SubWiki or some other Wiki, then we can get the
data out of UseModWiki.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
--- Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com> wrote:
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> >
> > It certainly is easier to migrate content that
> exists, even if it is in
> > the wrong format, than content that does not
> exist.
>
> +1!
>
> as usual, sam demonstrates his uncanny knack to cut
> through the
> persiflage to one of the real issues.
> --
> #ken P-)}
Persiflage. Consider my vocabulary expanded.
Although if my dictionary does not deceive me,
persiflage is similar to "banter" in connotation. Let
me dig into my lexicon. How about "crap"? :)
- Morgan
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/watchdog
__________________________________________________
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Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> It certainly is easier to migrate content that exists, even if it is in
> the wrong format, than content that does not exist.
+1!
as usual, sam demonstrates his uncanny knack to cut through the
persiflage to one of the real issues.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
RE: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > Because wiki's tend to fill with content rapdily, once you
> > use them for a little while you are pretty much locked in.
> Counterpoint?
Personally, I'm getting mileage out of UseModWiki, despite its issues. I
wouldn't want to have to move every page in the Wiki, but I could cut &
paste the content for our section if I didn't have a migration tool. At the
moment, the content volume might not warrant a tool, and if the content
volume did, it could certainly be written.
--- Noel
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
James Taylor wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 23:58, Jeff Turner wrote:
>
>>it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
>>nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
>>sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
>
> I agree in general, but the Wiki is a great example of a place where a
> little more forward thinking might have been a good idea. Because wiki's
> tend to fill with content rapdily, once you use them for a little while
> you are pretty much locked in. Especially given this comment:
Counterpoint? (No, I don't want to become embroiled in this dicussion).
It certainly is easier to migrate content that exists, even if it is in
the wrong format, than content that does not exist.
- Sam Ruby
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
James Taylor wrote:
>
>>>How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
>>
>>The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
>>work will be needed.
>
> Brilliant!
what's yer beef? at least something got *done*!
/me runs away
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
migrating UseModWiki data (was: Do vs. Talk)
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 07:50:35AM -0500, James Taylor wrote:
>...
> On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 16:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> > > How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
> >
> > The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
> > work will be needed.
>
> Brilliant!
It doesn't appear to be too hard to extract the data. The developer FAQ's
first question covers this:
http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UseModWiki/DeveloperQuestions
A short little Perl script should dump the stuff out quite handily. I can
then import that all into Subversion.
Retaining the change history would be more work, but is possible.
Thankfully, and unlike the problem posed to cvs2svn, UseModWiki changes just
one page at a time, so a history conversion tool would not need to aggregate
commits. It would just sort the changes by time, and then load those into
the SVN repository.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by James Taylor <ja...@jamestaylor.org>.
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 23:58, Jeff Turner wrote:
> it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
> nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
> sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
I agree in general, but the Wiki is a great example of a place where a
little more forward thinking might have been a good idea. Because wiki's
tend to fill with content rapdily, once you use them for a little while
you are pretty much locked in. Especially given this comment:
On Wed, 2003-01-08 at 16:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> > How viable is it to machine migrate the content?
>
> The UseModWiki content isn't in bare text files, so a little bit of
> work will be needed.
Brilliant!
Re: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
Sometimes it's better to _think_ before talking or doing :-)
And it's nothing wrong to think after talking and doing -
and make changes and adjustments.
I don't think open source or "meritocracy" is about doing,
it's more about feedback and review and improvements.
Costin
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jeff Turner wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 12:50:55PM -0800, Greg Stein wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 02:17:38PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > http://www.freeroller.net/page/acoliver/20030108#when_is_community_not_a
> > >...
> > > - he was criticized for a message that he made
> > > in jest, but which wasn't at all obvious in
> > > that intent.
> >
> > To be honest, I usually find people who say "but that was a joke" are simply
> > trying to cover up a social blunder under the ruse of "you didn't get it."
> > Whether the case here or not, it certainly was non-obvious.
>
> FYI,
>
> Jakarta has a tradition of people like Jon Stevens bitching at everyone
> else for being all talk and no action. This is many people's first
> exposure to the idea of meritocracy. It's no good whining about "it's
> all wrong, someone should fix it"; there is no 'someone', there's just
> *you*. Something wrong with the website? Send a patch. Think there
> should be a newsletter? Congratulations, you're the editor. Want a
> Wiki? Bug someone for karma and go install it. This is not anarchy and
> it's *not* democracy, it's a meritocracy. The Doers' opinion has more
> weight than the Talkers. Stuff happens because people make it happen.
> Generally it happens with some form of consensus in the larger community,
> but once the "what" is agreed on, the "how" is up to people willing to do
> the work.
>
> I think that is what Andy was attempting to convey. I 'got' the joke
> immediately because plays on an underlying theme at Jakarta. One
> evidently not present here.
>
> > And why did he unsubscribe? We can make guesses, but that's about it. Unless
> > he clarifies further in his blog or posts elsewhere...
> >
> > > "Just Do It" is a great ad slogan, but it doesn't seem to me to always be
> > > the appropriate model for group projects.
> >
> > Right.
>
> Slogans deliberately oversimplify. "Just Do It" must be compared to
> "Just Talk About It". If it comes to slogans, I know which I'd prefer.
>
> > > Yes, it makes things happen. But
> > > when people are actively discussing an issue of communal interest, it makes
> > > sense to me that the issue be discussed, various ways to doing something
> > > examined, tradeoffs weighed, and then execute a change based upon some
> > > concensus.
>
> 100% consensus on things like how a Wiki system should work is never
> going to emerge. After 80% consensus on the broad issues (like whether
> to have a Wiki at all) emerges, it's best to get something (anything)
> done, rather than wait for the last 20%.
>
> > > Otherwise, when more than one person cares about a subject, "Just Do
> > > It" results in one person's vision being realized, and a cycle of
> > > potentially conflicting changes necessary to stablize the code.
> > > Am I missing something?
> >
> > You're missing the fact that a "just do it" attitude can be totally
> > inconsiderate towards your peers. "I don't care about your opinion, I'm just
> > getting it done." It certainly doesn't help foster a community based on
> > mutual respect.
>
> Attacking the "Just Do It" slogan is easy. It's a straw man. The
> *actual* POV that (I guess) Andy was promoting is more complex: YES, by
> all means gain overall consensus, but once you've established "what",
> don't let the differing opinions on "how" prevent action. In this view,
> it is better to have ANY Wiki (here, UseModWiki) than try to establish a
> nonexistent consensus on which Wiki everyone agrees is best. That can be
> sorted out later, if people want it sorted out badly enough.
>
>
> --Jeff
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
RE: Do vs. Talk (Re: email notification done...sorta)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jeff,
Unless I missed a discussion elsewhere (I'm only on community@ and
infrastructure@, as well as project lists), Andy appeared to be complaining
about (a) people asking for changes to the Wiki without contributing
patches, and (b) the current lack of consensus on how to integrate
push-model into the Wiki.
This seems ironic to me, since Andy talked about how the Wiki would help
non-account holders to develop documentation, but appears to have had little
patience for the fact that such Wiki USERS might want changes that they
wouldn't implement. This is a good example for why One Man Codebases don't
work; it takes a Community.
Perhaps it was said elsewhere, but I didn't see anyone say "Wiki? Yuck.
Get rid of it!" What I did see were people saying, "Great! And thanks!
But now that we have one, we want to make even better use of it, and so we
need ..." And those comments seem to come from people who are using the
Wiki.
--- Noel