[Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
recover.

Proposal:

If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
one week I will do the following:

1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.

2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :

a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English

b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
posting date.

4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.

5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.

6) The note will be repeated a week later.

7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
the lists, per:

http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>]

Perhaps add to that list of actions a notice on the OOo page?

Don

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[imacat <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>]

On 2011/10/17 06:12, Rob Weir said:
> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.
> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.

    I would like to volunteer translating into Traditional Chinese.

-- 
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc

<<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://wofoss.blogspot.com/
OpenOffice.org http://www.openoffice.org/
EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[John Boyle <jb...@harbornet.com>]

On 10/19/2011 2:04 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> ******
> This E-Mail possibly is a digitally signed message with Security
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> your browser might give "Invalid Signature" warning.  Please ignore
> this warning.
> ******
>
>
> John,
>
> The list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org is proposed to be the replacement for
> users@OO.o and discuss@OO.o.  You can subscribe to ooo-users@ by sending an
> e-mail from the e-mail address you want to be subscribed from to
> ooo-users-subscribe@incubator.apache.org .  If that succeeds, you will receive
> a response from the list robot, ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org that tells
> you what to do next to confirm your subscription.
>
> I see that you were having trouble subscribing to ooo-users at the beginning
> of September.  Is that still not working for you?
>
>   - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Boyle [mailto:jboyle@harbornet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:33
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On 10/19/2011 12:21 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org>   wrote:
>>> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements,
>>> etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.
>>> You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of
>>> lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how
>>> [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the
>>> just-subscribed list.
>>>
>>> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private
>>> and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as
>>> announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>>>
>> FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
>> touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
>> reports, commit notifications, etc.
>>
>>> Here are the www mailing lists:<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.
>>> You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.
>>> To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply
>>> to List in the little pull-down on the form.
>>>
>>> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab
>>> of<http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for
>>> managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you
>>> must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these
>>> pages.)
>>>
>>>    - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>   wrote:
>>>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>     wrote:
>>>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>>>> above lists.
>>>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>>>> into any issues about that.
>>>>
>>> Hi Kay,
>>>
>>> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
>>> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
>>> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
>>> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
>>> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>>    The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>>>> disagrees..
>>>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>>>
>>>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link
>>>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>>>> later.
>>>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>>>> put...sorrry!]
>>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>>>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>>>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>>>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>>>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> MzK
>>>>
>>>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>>>             -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>>>
> To Rob Weir, et al: I now have the wiki page bookmarked , but as of yet
> I had no idea where to look to see what the recommended new user lists
> or otherwise will be. I do not have any programming skills, I am
> basically just a user of the product. I just happen to think if you're
> going to do this combining And translating, that a list should be made
> of the proposed new lists.I did not know there were 303 lists associated
> with OOo! That is a surprise to me. I am mostly interested in keeping
> some kind of users list active, so that I can learn more of how to use
> the product. I got on the ooo-dev. list mostly by accident, as I wasn't
> clear on how to just get on the new users list. I have stayed on this
> list, as this way I learned what you are planning to do with the whole
> program and it has been very interesting, although I have had to delete
> some because it was beyond me and what I could do. So, can you give me
> an idea of what the new lists will be called and how soon will we be
> forced to change?:-)
To Dennis: Yes, but following the instructions from the message just 
before this one, I am trying again!:-)

RE: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

John,

The list ooo-users@incubator.apache.org is proposed to be the replacement for 
users@OO.o and discuss@OO.o.  You can subscribe to ooo-users@ by sending an 
e-mail from the e-mail address you want to be subscribed from to 
ooo-users-subscribe@incubator.apache.org .  If that succeeds, you will receive 
a response from the list robot, ooo-users-help@incubator.apache.org that tells 
you what to do next to confirm your subscription.

I see that you were having trouble subscribing to ooo-users at the beginning 
of September.  Is that still not working for you?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: John Boyle [mailto:jboyle@harbornet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:33
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On 10/19/2011 12:21 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org>  wrote:
>> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements, 
>> etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly. 
>> You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of 
>> lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how 
>> [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the 
>> just-subscribed list.
>>
>> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private 
>> and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as 
>> announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>>
> FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
> touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
> reports, commit notifications, etc.
>
>> Here are the www mailing lists:<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>. 
>> You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information. 
>> To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply 
>> to List in the little pull-down on the form.
>>
>> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab 
>> of<http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for 
>> managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you 
>> must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these 
>> pages.)
>>
>>   - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>>> above lists.
>>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>>> into any issues about that.
>>>
>> Hi Kay,
>>
>> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
>> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
>> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
>> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
>> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>>   The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>>> disagrees..
>>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>>
>>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link
>>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>>> later.
>>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>>
>>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>>> put...sorrry!]
>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>>
>>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>>
>>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> MzK
>>>
>>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>>            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>>
>>
>
To Rob Weir, et al: I now have the wiki page bookmarked , but as of yet
I had no idea where to look to see what the recommended new user lists
or otherwise will be. I do not have any programming skills, I am
basically just a user of the product. I just happen to think if you're
going to do this combining And translating, that a list should be made
of the proposed new lists.I did not know there were 303 lists associated
with OOo! That is a surprise to me. I am mostly interested in keeping
some kind of users list active, so that I can learn more of how to use
the product. I got on the ooo-dev. list mostly by accident, as I wasn't
clear on how to just get on the new users list. I have stayed on this
list, as this way I learned what you are planning to do with the whole
program and it has been very interesting, although I have had to delete
some because it was beyond me and what I could do. So, can you give me
an idea of what the new lists will be called and how soon will we be
forced to change?:-)

Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:33 PM, John Boyle <jb...@harbornet.com> wrote:
> On 10/19/2011 12:21 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements,
>>> etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.
>>>  You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of
>>> lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how
>>> [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the
>>> just-subscribed list.
>>>
>>> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private
>>> and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as
>>> announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>>>
>> FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
>> touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
>> reports, commit notifications, etc.
>>
>>> Here are the www mailing
>>> lists:<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.  You must be logged in to
>>> see the Subscribe buttons and other information.  To make a post, go to the
>>> archive, open any message, and then select Reply to List in the little
>>> pull-down on the form.
>>>
>>> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab
>>> of<http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for
>>> managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you
>>> must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these
>>> pages.)
>>>
>>>  - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>>>> above lists.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't
>>>> run
>>>> into any issues about that.
>>>>
>>> Hi Kay,
>>>
>>> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
>>> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
>>> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
>>> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
>>> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>>  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>>>> disagrees..
>>>>
>>>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>>>
>>>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link
>>>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>>>> later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>>>
>>>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>>>> put...sorrry!]
>>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>>>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>>>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to
>>>> continue
>>>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>>>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>>>
>>>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> MzK
>>>>
>>>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>>>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>>>
>>>
>>
> To Rob Weir, et al: I now have the wiki page bookmarked , but as of yet I
> had no idea where to look to see what the recommended new user lists or
> otherwise will be. I do not have any programming skills, I am basically just
> a user of the product. I just happen to think if you're going to do this
> combining And translating, that a list should be made of the proposed new
> lists.I did not know there were 303 lists associated with OOo! That is a
> surprise to me. I am mostly interested in keeping some kind of users list
> active, so that I can learn more of how to use the product. I got on the
> ooo-dev. list mostly by accident, as I wasn't clear on how to just get on
> the new users list. I have stayed on this list, as this way I learned what
> you are planning to do with the whole program and it has been very
> interesting, although I have had to delete some because it was beyond me and
> what I could do. So, can you give me an idea of what the new lists will be
> called and how soon will we be forced to change?:-)

John, in my original proposal I said I would put the list on the wiki
in a week.  That was three days ago.  If you check back in around four
days I will have more detail.

By the way, did you know we already have a users list for Apache
OpenOffice.org?  You can subscribe by sending an email to
ooo-users-subscribe@incubator.apache.org.  You will then receive a
confirmation email.  When you respond to that confirmation email your
subscription will be activated.  Let me know if you have any
questions.

-Rob

>

Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[John Boyle <jb...@harbornet.com>]

On 10/19/2011 12:21 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org>  wrote:
>> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements, etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.  You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the just-subscribed list.
>>
>> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>>
> FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
> touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
> reports, commit notifications, etc.
>
>> Here are the www mailing lists:<http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.  You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.  To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply to List in the little pull-down on the form.
>>
>> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab of<http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these pages.)
>>
>>   - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>>> above lists.
>>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>>> into any issues about that.
>>>
>> Hi Kay,
>>
>> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
>> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
>> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
>> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
>> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>>   The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>>> disagrees..
>>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>>
>>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link
>>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>>> later.
>>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>>
>>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>>> put...sorrry!]
>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>>
>>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>>
>>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> MzK
>>>
>>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>>            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>>
>>
>
To Rob Weir, et al: I now have the wiki page bookmarked , but as of yet 
I had no idea where to look to see what the recommended new user lists 
or otherwise will be. I do not have any programming skills, I am 
basically just a user of the product. I just happen to think if you're 
going to do this combining And translating, that a list should be made 
of the proposed new lists.I did not know there were 303 lists associated 
with OOo! That is a surprise to me. I am mostly interested in keeping 
some kind of users list active, so that I can learn more of how to use 
the product. I got on the ooo-dev. list mostly by accident, as I wasn't 
clear on how to just get on the new users list. I have stayed on this 
list, as this way I learned what you are planning to do with the whole 
program and it has been very interesting, although I have had to delete 
some because it was beyond me and what I could do. So, can you give me 
an idea of what the new lists will be called and how soon will we be 
forced to change?:-)

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements, etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.  You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the just-subscribed list.
>
> There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated.
>

FWIW, I'm only looking at "community" discussion lists.  I'm not
touching any uni-directional "utility" lists, like ones that echo bug
reports, commit notifications, etc.

> Here are the www mailing lists: <http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.  You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.  To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply to List in the little pull-down on the form.
>
> The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab of <http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these pages.)
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>> above lists.
>>
>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>> into any issues about that.
>>
>
> Hi Kay,
>
> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>
> -Rob
>
>
>>  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>> disagrees..
>>
>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>> put...sorrry!]
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>
>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>
>
>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Concerning subscriptions to many lists in order to make announcements, etc., I think if you have an OpenOffice.org ID, it will go rather smoothly.  You can then use the web pages that provide subscribe buttons for blocks of lists and work rather quickly.  The archive view (useful in knowing how [in]active a list is) also has a form for sending a message to the just-subscribed list.

There may be some of these lists where the project is considered private and subscription is moderated.  I know there are lists, such as announcement@ OO.o where the posts are also moderated. 

Here are the www mailing lists: <http://openoffice.org/projects/www/lists>.  You must be logged in to see the Subscribe buttons and other information.  To make a post, go to the archive, open any message, and then select Reply to List in the little pull-down on the form.

The Projects mailing lists are on the Projects A-Z tab of <http://openoffice.org/projects>.  Each project has its own page for managing all of its subscriptions, subscribing, etc.  (Again, I think you must be logged in to OpenOffice.org to see everything that is on these pages.)

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 05:57
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>> English
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>
>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>> above lists.
>
> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
> into any issues about that.
>

Hi Kay,

Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?

-Rob


>  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>> date.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>> disagrees..
>
> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>> later.
>>>
>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
> put...sorrry!]
> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>
>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>> to the forwarding service.
>>
>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>> summary that we can point users to.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Regards, Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

see below...

On 10/19/2011 05:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>> above lists.
>>
>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
>> into any issues about that.
>>
>
> Hi Kay,
>
> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?

Rob--
I may have been in error saying this about the user oriented lists. My 
apologies. Marcus had once said the general announcements list was 
moderated, and I somehow assumed maybe some of the others were also.

But according to info on the website:

http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html

this doesn't seem to be the case. So subscribing to all lists you want 
to contact should work.

>
> -Rob
>
>
>>   The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>> disagrees..
>>
>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>> later.
>>>>
>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>> put...sorrry!]
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>
>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There is no such thing as coincidence."
            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> John,
>
> [answering quickly without having seen more-recent posts yet]
>
> I believe it is the Apache OpenOffice.org Community Wiki (aka OOOUSERS) that
> is intended to receive the list of still-active OO.o mailing lists that need
> to have some sort of arrangements made for migration, one way or another:
> <https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/>.
>
> The proposal here is to the effect that OO.o lists will be shut down and that
> there will be some select number of ooo-yourListNameHere@ incubator.apache.org
> lists offered as Apache OpenOffice.org project alternatives.
>
> One problem being faced is that Apache infrastructure does not have an
> existing way to preserve the OO.o lists in their present form, with the
> subscription mechanism connection to OpenOffice.org User IDs (and other means
> of subscription), the archives, and, I suppose, the @OO.o list names.
>

I don't think that is an accurate statement of the problem.  We
currently have over 300 openoffice.org mailings lists.  Many of them
are abandoned, many of them overrun with spam.   And we have thriving
lists here at Apache.   Having the community split between 303
different lists is harmful to the community.  It divides our energy.
We should be looking to combine these lists together into as few lists
as necessary to maintain focus, but without dividing the conversations
of the community.  The problem so far is that we have created new
lists at Apache without shutting down the existing lists.

I would be a strong -1 for anyone who proposed to recreate the 300+
lists at Apache.  I'd like to improve collaboration within the
community, not merely "preserve the OO.o lists in their present form",
which I think most observers would admit is a mess today.

> To do otherwise requires this project coming up with the necessary personnel
> to accomplish some less-disruptive approach.  Also, individuals who are
> already able to administer and moderate those lists are needed to support such
> a migration.  That needs to be sustaining support.  Apache Infrastructure can
> provide the platform, but maintenance and operation of the service, to the
> extent that it is unique here, must be supported by volunteers from the Apache
> OpenOffice.org project.  That includes not only moderators, but
> administrators, including site administration for the running mailing-list
> software.
>
> John, are you able to support us having something less apocalyptic for when
> the OpenOffice.org web site is moved to ASF custody?  Do you have contact with
> those who can?
>
>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Boyle [mailto:jboyle@harbornet.com]
> <
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3c4E9F1049.6050004@harbornet.com%3e>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:01
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On 10/19/2011 5:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> <
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAP-ksoh_OfbHyJtF+EmAsDAgHeBbvv2_inzd=7vtqGWfyTJ21A@mail.gmail.com%3e>
> [ ... ]
>
> To the developers: What" wiki" are you talking about? I guess I have
> missed some e-mails, but I do object to having the current mailing lists
> removed, as it does not make any sense to do so!:-(
>

RE: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

John,

[answering quickly without having seen more-recent posts yet]

I believe it is the Apache OpenOffice.org Community Wiki (aka OOOUSERS) that 
is intended to receive the list of still-active OO.o mailing lists that need 
to have some sort of arrangements made for migration, one way or another: 
<https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/>.

The proposal here is to the effect that OO.o lists will be shut down and that 
there will be some select number of ooo-yourListNameHere@ incubator.apache.org 
lists offered as Apache OpenOffice.org project alternatives.

One problem being faced is that Apache infrastructure does not have an 
existing way to preserve the OO.o lists in their present form, with the 
subscription mechanism connection to OpenOffice.org User IDs (and other means 
of subscription), the archives, and, I suppose, the @OO.o list names.

To do otherwise requires this project coming up with the necessary personnel 
to accomplish some less-disruptive approach.  Also, individuals who are 
already able to administer and moderate those lists are needed to support such 
a migration.  That needs to be sustaining support.  Apache Infrastructure can 
provide the platform, but maintenance and operation of the service, to the 
extent that it is unique here, must be supported by volunteers from the Apache 
OpenOffice.org project.  That includes not only moderators, but 
administrators, including site administration for the running mailing-list 
software.

John, are you able to support us having something less apocalyptic for when 
the OpenOffice.org web site is moved to ASF custody?  Do you have contact with 
those who can?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: John Boyle [mailto:jboyle@harbornet.com]
< 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3c4E9F1049.6050004@harbornet.com%3e>
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:01
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On 10/19/2011 5:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
< 
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAP-ksoh_OfbHyJtF+EmAsDAgHeBbvv2_inzd=7vtqGWfyTJ21A@mail.gmail.com%3e>
[ ... ]

To the developers: What" wiki" are you talking about? I guess I have
missed some e-mails, but I do object to having the current mailing lists
removed, as it does not make any sense to do so!:-(

Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>]

On 10/19/2011 2:00 PM, John Boyle wrote:
...snip...
> To the developers: What" wiki" are you talking about? I guess I have
> missed some e-mails, but I do object to having the current mailing lists
> removed, as it does not make any sense to do so!:-(

Just a reminder: Oracle's support of the existing servers running 
various openoffice.org systems, including the mailing lists, is being 
removed by Oracle.  That's the root issue we're trying to solve, so it's 
not like the ASF is trying to make things hard!  8-)

In the process of hosting useful mailing lists here on stable and 
long-lived Apache infrastructure, we will be creating a set of lists to 
support the Apache OpenOffice podling's work at creating new AOOo 
releases (like this ooo-dev@ list).  We will have mailing lists to 
support our work, it's just that we'll have far fewer lists that should 
be much better managed than they have been recently at oo.o.

Hope this meta-comment helps explain the bigger picture of why the lists 
are being changed.  Similarly, many websites and services hosted at 
openoffice.org will be changed, moved, or removed in the somewhat near 
future.

- Shane

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 19, 2011, at 11:00 AM, John Boyle wrote:

<snipping out the detail>

> To the developers: What" wiki" are you talking about?

I believe the project's planning wiki - https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Wiki+Home

I'm not sure what the page name will be.

> I guess I have missed some e-mails, but I do object to having the current mailing lists removed, as it does not make any sense to do so!:-(

One issue which is effecting this choice is if the AOOo community can legally transfer the existing OOo ML membership from Oracle hosted servers to the ASF. If all users are required to signup on a new list even if it remains an @openoffice.org ML then the pain is the same for all users.

Also, OOo has well over 100 Mailing Lists. It takes volunteer resources to moderate each ML.

We are very interested in the opinions of the whole OOo community. Do you have particular Mailing Lists that you use and wish to continue using?

Regards,
Dave

Re: [SPAM] Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[John Boyle <jb...@harbornet.com>]

On 10/19/2011 5:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk<ka...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>    wrote:
>>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>>
>>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>>> above lists.
>> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't
>> into any issues about that.
>>
> Hi Kay,
>
> Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
> would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
> notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
> questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
> moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?
>
> -Rob
>
>
>>   The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>>> date.
>>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>>> disagrees..
>> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>>
>>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>>> later.
>>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>>
>>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>>
>> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
>> put...sorrry!]
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
>> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
>> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to
>> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
>> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>>
>>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>>> to the forwarding service.
>>>
>>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>>> summary that we can point users to.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> MzK
>>
>> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>>            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>>
>
To the developers: What" wiki" are you talking about? I guess I have 
missed some e-mails, but I do object to having the current mailing lists 
removed, as it does not make any sense to do so!:-(

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>>> English
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>>
>>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>>
>>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>>> above lists.
>
> Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't run
> into any issues about that.
>

Hi Kay,

Could you explain what the issue would be here?  I was assuming I
would join each of the mailing lists, in order to send the
notification post. I'd then be there on the list to also answer any
questions.  Are there lists that I cannot subscribe to without
moderator approval?  Do you know which ones?

-Rob


>  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>>> date.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>>> disagrees..
>
> Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>>> later.
>>>
>>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
> [ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying
> put...sorrry!]
> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and
> Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An
> easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue
> on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will
> bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>>> the spammers behind.
>>>
>>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
>> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
>> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
>> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
>> to the forwarding service.
>>
>> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
>> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
>> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
>> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
>> summary that we can point users to.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Regards, Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Rob
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

On 10/17/2011 09:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave
>>> Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing
>>>>> lists and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo
>>>>> mailing lists. I realize that this is not the solution that
>>>>> many of us would prefer, but I believe that it is the best
>>>>> way forward that anyone is willing to volunteer to lead.
>>>>> Please delight me by proving me wrong on this, by objecting
>>>>> this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the
>>>>> default, if we do nothing, of just having the lists just go
>>>>> down one day and not recover.
>>>>>
>>>>> Proposal:
>>>>>
>>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition
>>>>> plan, in one week I will do the following:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that
>>>>> have received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>>
>>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not
>>>>> English
>>>>>
>>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should
>>>>> be pointed to.
>>>>
>>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see
>>> where that info helps with the migration.
>>>
>>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in
>>>> the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over.
>>>> (Language is another property.)
>>>>
>>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the
>>>>> above lists.

Some of the lists in question may be moderated. Hopefully you/we won't 
run into any issues about that.

  The post will talk about the overall effort of
>>>>> the migration to Apache, the specific migration of the
>>>>> mailing lists, and invite the subscribers to stay informed
>>>>> and to participate in the new Apache lists.  Information on
>>>>> how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown date, for the
>>>>> legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the posting
>>>>> date.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general
>>>> timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what
>>>> is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community
>>>> disagrees..

Yes. We definitely need to work on such a statement (wiki page)

>>>>
>>>
>>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to
>>> a wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we
>>> move forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've
>>> done that already in other areas, like source code, issue
>>> tracking, and soon the forums.   And in general, it is to our
>>> benefit to move ahead with the pieces we do understand,
>>> especially communications vehicles, so we're not caught in a bad
>>> situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly became unavailable.
>>> It is prudent to ensure that we have the main means of
>>> communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>>> later.
>>
>> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes
>> are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into
>>>>> other languages.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the
>>>>> posts to the lists.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>>
>>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai
>>>>> admins close the lists, per:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
[ this para is from Dave's response. I don't know why it's not staying 
put...sorrry!]
In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and 
Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An 
easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to 
continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even 
if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy
>>> lists. Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.
>>> An earlier poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per
>>> day.  We have a good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave
>>> the spammers behind.
>>
>> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of
>> their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to
>> give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are
>> also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts.
>> We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If
>> someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses
>> we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>>
>
> Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail
> forwarding service.   That is an independent issue that we need to
> develop a plan for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we
> announce mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related
> to the forwarding service.
>
> It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing
> page on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what
> hasn't, what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less
> technical detail than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level
> summary that we can point users to.
>
> -Rob
>
>> Regards, Dave
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There is no such thing as coincidence."
            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

+1 on having a single page that users can use to find out what is going on 
with the migration.  Progressive disclosure to details could happen with links 
to details, keeping the main summary simple and easy to follow.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAP-ksojP5eMH=xtOV4caCqz12kUPVTqHCPMfJnJjxmezdBTeiA@mail.gmail.com%3e>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 09:21
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3c37A6B1C6-3C4D-41B4-8679-A12DBBB186BE@comcast.net%3e>
[ ... ]

> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of their 
> @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to give them some 
> time to react if these are being dropped. There are also implications with 
> BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts. We've "bikeshedded" on these 
> addresses, we now need a plan. If someone cares enough about openoffice.org 
> personal email addresses we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>

Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail forwarding
service.   That is an independent issue that we need to develop a plan
for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we announce
mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related to the
forwarding service.

It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing page
on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what hasn't,
what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less technical detail
than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level summary that we can
point users to.

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>>>
>>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
>>>> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
>>>> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
>>>> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
>>>> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
>>>> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
>>>> recover.
>>>>
>>>> Proposal:
>>>>
>>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
>>>> one week I will do the following:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
>>>> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>>>
>>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>>>>
>>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.
>>>
>>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>>>
>>
>> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see where
>> that info helps with the migration.
>>
>>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over. (Language is another property.)
>>>
>>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
>>>> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
>>>> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
>>>> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
>>>> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
>>>> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
>>>> posting date.
>>>
>>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community disagrees..
>>>
>>
>> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
>> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to a
>> wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
>> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we move
>> forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've done that
>> already in other areas, like source code, issue tracking, and soon the
>> forums.   And in general, it is to our benefit to move ahead with the
>> pieces we do understand, especially communications vehicles, so we're
>> not caught in a bad situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly
>> became unavailable.  It is prudent to ensure that we have the main
>> means of communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
>> later.
>
> It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes are put in the context of the total migration the better.
>
>>
>>>>
>>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
>>>>
>>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
>>>>
>>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>>>
>>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>>>> the lists, per:
>>>>
>>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>>
>>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>>>
>>
>> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
>> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy lists.
>> Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.   An earlier
>> poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per day.  We have a
>> good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave the spammers behind.
>
> Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts. We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses we'll need volunteers to work out the details.
>

Nothing I've proposed will impact the @openoffice.org mail forwarding
service.   That is an independent issue that we need to develop a plan
for and communicate. But it is reasonable that when we announce
mailing list changes that we'll also get questions related to the
forwarding service.

It makes me think that we would benefit from a single user-facing page
on the current status of the migration.  What has moved, what hasn't,
what the general plan is.  Something with a lot less technical detail
than we have on the wiki right now.  A high level summary that we can
point users to.

-Rob

> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>
>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

+1

Two critical points Dave reminds us of,

 - preservation of name@openoffice.org

 - the tie-in with subscriptions to all manner of things (as was the case with 
the Bugzilla), but also wiki, forums, and mailing list subscriptions.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net]
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3c37A6B1C6-3C4D-41B4-8679-A12DBBB186BE@comcast.net%3e>
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 08:58
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists


On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
<http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201110.mbox/%3cCAP-ksogDUcVt8+LOiKOqvDJ94Dp=VLo65gj9CRRFpLSOp4-hDA@mail.gmail.com%3e>

[ ... ]

> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to a
> wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we move
> forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've done that
> already in other areas, like source code, issue tracking, and soon the
> forums.   And in general, it is to our benefit to move ahead with the
> pieces we do understand, especially communications vehicles, so we're
> not caught in a bad situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly
> became unavailable.  It is prudent to ensure that we have the main
> means of communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
> later.

It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes are put in 
the context of the total migration the better.

[ ... ]

> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy lists.
> Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.   An earlier
> poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per day.  We have a
> good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave the spammers behind.

Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of their 
@openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to give them some 
time to react if these are being dropped. There are also implications with 
BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts. We've "bikeshedded" on these 
addresses, we now need a plan. If someone cares enough about openoffice.org 
personal email addresses we'll need volunteers to work out the details.

Regards,
Dave

>
>>
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>
>>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>> 
>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
>>> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
>>> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
>>> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
>>> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
>>> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
>>> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
>>> recover.
>>> 
>>> Proposal:
>>> 
>>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
>>> one week I will do the following:
>>> 
>>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
>>> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>> 
>>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>> 
>>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>>> 
>>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.
>> 
>> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>> 
> 
> No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see where
> that info helps with the migration.
> 
>> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over. (Language is another property.)
>> 
>>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
>>> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
>>> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
>>> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
>>> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
>>> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
>>> posting date.
>> 
>> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community disagrees..
>> 
> 
> Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
> include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to a
> wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
> technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we move
> forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've done that
> already in other areas, like source code, issue tracking, and soon the
> forums.   And in general, it is to our benefit to move ahead with the
> pieces we do understand, especially communications vehicles, so we're
> not caught in a bad situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly
> became unavailable.  It is prudent to ensure that we have the main
> means of communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
> later.

It will certainly be a work in progress, the more the ML changes are put in the context of the total migration the better.

> 
>>> 
>>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
>>> 
>>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
>>> 
>>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>> 
>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>>> the lists, per:
>>> 
>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>> 
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>> 
> 
> I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
> indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy lists.
> Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.   An earlier
> poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per day.  We have a
> good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave the spammers behind.

Let's not forget that there are a number of people who make use of their @openoffice.org email address. We owe it to these people to give them some time to react if these are being dropped. There are also implications with BZ - at least in bug ownership and accounts. We've "bikeshedded" on these addresses, we now need a plan. If someone cares enough about openoffice.org personal email addresses we'll need volunteers to work out the details.

Regards,
Dave

> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>> 
>> 

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.
>
> On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
>> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
>> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
>> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
>> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
>> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
>> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
>> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
>> recover.
>>
>> Proposal:
>>
>> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
>> one week I will do the following:
>>
>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
>> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>>
>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>>
>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>>
>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.
>
> c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.
>

No objections to having that info on the wiki, but I don't see where
that info helps with the migration.

> At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over. (Language is another property.)
>
>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
>> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
>> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
>> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
>> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
>> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
>> posting date.
>
> It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community disagrees..
>

Great.  If we have a good statement on overall migration, we can
include that.  Or if it is still "work in progress" I can link to a
wiki page where the latest info can be found.  But there is no
technical requirement for us to figure everything out before we move
forward on independent pieces that we do understand.  We've done that
already in other areas, like source code, issue tracking, and soon the
forums.   And in general, it is to our benefit to move ahead with the
pieces we do understand, especially communications vehicles, so we're
not caught in a bad situation if the legacy servers unexpectedly
became unavailable.  It is prudent to ensure that we have the main
means of communication solidly on Apache servers sooner rather than
later.

>>
>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
>>
>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
>>
>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>>
>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>> the lists, per:
>>
>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>
> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>

I'd be opposed to any automatic forwarding of list traffic or
indiscriminate transferring of subscriptions from the legacy lists.
Several of the legacy lists are are over-run by spammers.   An earlier
poster said they get 80-120 moderation requests per day.  We have a
good opportunity to "clean house" and to leave the spammers behind.

>
>>
>> -Rob
>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Hi Rob,

On Oct 25, 2011, at 7:27 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>> 
> 
> Can we talk through that option a little more?  Take a legacy list
> like users@openoffice.org.  If we try to handle this via the MX
> record, then that applies to the entire domain, all mailing lists as
> well as forwarding email account at openoffice.org.  Is that correct?
> In other words, the MX record is at the level of openoffice.org, not
> at the level of users@openoffice.org.

Correct. It is the whole domain.

> So in the MX approach, is there any way to do a more gradual
> migration, or do we need to do it all at once, including the
> forwarding accounts?  I know for web traffic, there is some
> flexibility at the subdomain level.  But these are all the same
> domain, just differing by account.

When we leave Kenai/Oracle and move to ASF we are doing it all at once. In advance we will need to tell Infrastructure what forwarders and mailboxes we require. They'll tell us if there are any mailboxes (like postmaster) that we might be required to monitor (could be none.)

If securityteam@oo.o becomes a forwarder then that is one mailbox we don't need.


> 
> Suppose there is some way to get over that.  Then we could create
> identically named (or predictably mappable) equivalent lists using
> ezmlm.  But since we're not able to automatically sign users up, the
> traffic forwarding would all end up in the moderator queues.  Of
> course, these could be passed through.  We could even white list the
> addresses.  (or black list in the case of spammers)  But it doesn't
> get people signed up on the ezmlm list.
> 
> Where this might be useful is for cases where a legacy email list
> address is on a third party page, or maybe even in our own legacy list
> archives.  Someone does a Google search and sees something that says,
> "If you run into this problem, please send an email to
> foo@openoffice.org".  Some degree of forwarding for these emails would
> ensure such users don't get lost.
> 
> But we can't simple forward *.openoffice.org to a
> ooo-legacy-bucket.i.a.o email list, since many of the *.openoffice.org
> are personal forwarding addresses and contain personal content.  And
> some lists are private lists.  So any forwarding scheme would need to
> be very sensitive to these details and would likely need an actual
> enumeration of the 300 or so lists and the unknown number of official
> contact emails (webmaster, etc.) that we want to forward.

Your excursion into hypotheticals has led you back to reality. We have a table of forwarders and we ask Apache Infrastructure to implement it as part of hosting openoffice.org's MX.

The only question is if we need any openoffice.org mailboxes.

I think we have to either keep a set of personal OOo forwarders ala apache.org forwarders, or none at all. Forwarders not kept will bounce. It is possible that we can control of the 550 (?) unknown user bounce message. We'll need to ask Infrastructure about it.

We decided earlier not to keep personal forwarders.

We could make it so all the committers on AOOo could have openoffice.org forwarders to their apache.org addresses which then forward where selected.

> 
> Do you see that path in a similar way?  Or do you see a simpler way of
> doing that?

Without the digression, yes, similar, but with the added question about real mailboxes.

Regards,
Dave


> 
> -Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:

<snip>
> In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.
>

Can we talk through that option a little more?  Take a legacy list
like users@openoffice.org.  If we try to handle this via the MX
record, then that applies to the entire domain, all mailing lists as
well as forwarding email account at openoffice.org.  Is that correct?
In other words, the MX record is at the level of openoffice.org, not
at the level of users@openoffice.org.

So in the MX approach, is there any way to do a more gradual
migration, or do we need to do it all at once, including the
forwarding accounts?  I know for web traffic, there is some
flexibility at the subdomain level.  But these are all the same
domain, just differing by account.

Suppose there is some way to get over that.  Then we could create
identically named (or predictably mappable) equivalent lists using
ezmlm.  But since we're not able to automatically sign users up, the
traffic forwarding would all end up in the moderator queues.  Of
course, these could be passed through.  We could even white list the
addresses.  (or black list in the case of spammers)  But it doesn't
get people signed up on the ezmlm list.

Where this might be useful is for cases where a legacy email list
address is on a third party page, or maybe even in our own legacy list
archives.  Someone does a Google search and sees something that says,
"If you run into this problem, please send an email to
foo@openoffice.org".  Some degree of forwarding for these emails would
ensure such users don't get lost.

But we can't simple forward *.openoffice.org to a
ooo-legacy-bucket.i.a.o email list, since many of the *.openoffice.org
are personal forwarding addresses and contain personal content.  And
some lists are private lists.  So any forwarding scheme would need to
be very sensitive to these details and would likely need an actual
enumeration of the 300 or so lists and the unknown number of official
contact emails (webmaster, etc.) that we want to forward.

Do you see that path in a similar way?  Or do you see a simpler way of
doing that?

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

I like your proposal. I have some comments inline.

On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Rob Weir wrote:

> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
> recover.
> 
> Proposal:
> 
> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
> one week I will do the following:
> 
> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
> 
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
> 
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
> 
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

c) the list's OOo/Kenai project.

At the end of the week the ML list should be incorporated in the OOo properties that Dennis and I are "noodling" over. (Language is another property.)

> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.

It would be good to co-ordinate this message with a general timeline for the OOo migration. We should be clear about what is NOT being migrated and what is possible if the community disagrees..

> 
> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
> 
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
> 
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
> 
> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
> 
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

In the three to four weeks that it will take to get to step (7) AOOo and Apache Infra should have control over the openoffice.org MX records. An easier alternative would be to decide what MX services we want to continue on openoffice.org and do the MX migration at this point. Even if it will bounce and/or forward email.


> 
> -Rob

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

I would hope that it is now recognized how much anguish is created by asking 
folks to come to one of our few lists to discuss the future of the OO.o list 
they are on and happy with already.  Also, those users generally do not 
understand why slash-and-burn and piling into camps is necessary.  It looks 
easy to them.

I strongly recommend that the conversation be on the threatened lists, since 
it will be anyhow, and that the conversation be kept in that one place for 
coherence.   (I invite ooo-dev, ooo-users, and ooo-marketing subscribers to 
come to the threatened lists as well to support engagement of those related 
communities and demonstrate our good intentions.)

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:17
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> My concern for this proposal is that it doesn't involve engaging any of the 
> OpenOffice.org community, it simply tells them a two-week-out date where 
> something will happen and there is no opportunity for dialog.
>

I don't think that is an accurate statement of what I am proposing.  I
intend to be very specific about what will happen in the note to the
mailing lists.  It wull not be mysterious.

As for "dialog",

1) The initial note would point out the existence of ooo-users and
ooo-dev and (by that time) ooo-marketing and invite them to join those
lists if they wanted to further dialog.

2) I would subscribe to each of the lists receiving the notification
and be available to answer any questions users might direct to those
lists.

> Maybe publishing the list on the wiki (the presumption being anything not on 
> that list is simply shut down?) will help.  Maybe assistance will come 
> forward if there is more regret in what is foreseen and it is made know that 
> help is welcome and valued?  Do you see this as something that can be 
> adjusted for or is it necessary for someone to take it off your hands to do 
> that much?
>

My proposal included putting a list on the wiki.  So that part will be 
covered.

-Rob

>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 15:13
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
> recover.
>
> Proposal:
>
> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
> one week I will do the following:
>
> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.
>
> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.
>
> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other 
> languages.
>
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the 
> lists.
>
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>
> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
>
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>
> -Rob
>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> My concern for this proposal is that it doesn't involve engaging any of the OpenOffice.org community, it simply tells them a two-week-out date where something will happen and there is no opportunity for dialog.
>

I don't think that is an accurate statement of what I am proposing.  I
intend to be very specific about what will happen in the note to the
mailing lists.  It wull not be mysterious.

As for "dialog",

1) The initial note would point out the existence of ooo-users and
ooo-dev and (by that time) ooo-marketing and invite them to join those
lists if they wanted to further dialog.

2) I would subscribe to each of the lists receiving the notification
and be available to answer any questions users might direct to those
lists.

> Maybe publishing the list on the wiki (the presumption being anything not on that list is simply shut down?) will help.  Maybe assistance will come forward if there is more regret in what is foreseen and it is made know that help is welcome and valued?  Do you see this as something that can be adjusted for or is it necessary for someone to take it off your hands to do that much?
>

My proposal included putting a list on the wiki.  So that part will be covered.

-Rob

>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 15:13
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
> by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
> migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
> we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
> recover.
>
> Proposal:
>
> If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
> one week I will do the following:
>
> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.
>
> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.
>
> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
>
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
>
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>
> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
>
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>
> -Rob
>
>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

My concern for this proposal is that it doesn't involve engaging any of the OpenOffice.org community, it simply tells them a two-week-out date where something will happen and there is no opportunity for dialog.  

Maybe publishing the list on the wiki (the presumption being anything not on that list is simply shut down?) will help.  Maybe assistance will come forward if there is more regret in what is foreseen and it is made know that help is welcome and valued?  Do you see this as something that can be adjusted for or is it necessary for someone to take it off your hands to do that much?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2011 15:13
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this,
by objecting this this proposal *and volunteering to do an alternative
migration*.   But this approach is more graceful than the default, if
we do nothing, of just having the lists just go down one day and not
recover.

Proposal:

If not one objects and offers to lead a different transition plan, in
one week I will do the following:

1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.

2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :

a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English

b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
posting date.

4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.

5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.

6) The note will be repeated a week later.

7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
the lists, per:

http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:

This would seem to be better than simply subscribing everyone
silently...making it effectively an opt-in cross subscription.

Can the generated message be changed?  Customized per the needs of the
particular list?

Don

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
>> > shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about
>> OOo
>> > 1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
>> > obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, there is a MarkMail archive of 333 OOo mailing lists, 1.6 million
>> messages, going back to the project's start in 2000.
>>
>> See:  http://openoffice.markmail.org/
>>
>> What may be missing are archives of any private mailing lists.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> > Just wondering..
>> >
>>
>
> Will those archives be brought into ASF, do you think, or are we to find a
> place for them outside the fold?
>

I think they already have a place:  markmail.org.  I'm not proposing
to do anything beyond that.  But if someone wants to volunteer to make
an additional archival copy, they are welcome to try.

> -Wolf
>
> --
> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
> > shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about
> OOo
> > 1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
> > obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.
> >
>
> Yes, there is a MarkMail archive of 333 OOo mailing lists, 1.6 million
> messages, going back to the project's start in 2000.
>
> See:  http://openoffice.markmail.org/
>
> What may be missing are archives of any private mailing lists.
>
> -Rob
>
> > Just wondering..
> >
>

Will those archives be brought into ASF, do you think, or are we to find a
place for them outside the fold?

-Wolf

-- 
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 9:06 PM, NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 10/20/2011 11:28 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
>>> shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about OOo
>>> 1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
>>> obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there is a MarkMail archive of 333 OOo mailing lists, 1.6 million
>> messages, going back to the project's start in 2000.
>>
>> See:  http://openoffice.markmail.org/
> ...
>
> I fail to understand why you continue to fall back on MarkMail for
> archives rather than simply pulling the archives over to an Apache
> server. MarkMail is a third party service that can terminate it's
> services at any time & have their own ToU. See:
>

 <snip>

I think the MarkMail archive is sufficient.  But if you or anyone else
wants to make another mailing list archive over here at Apache, then
you are welcome to do so.

But my personal interest is in creating a thriving community and an
excellent product here at Apache.  I have zero interest in maintaining
a "Museum of OpenOffice".  So preserving 11 years of mailing list
archives is  not high on my list of priorities.  My energy is
dedicated to other tasks.  But I have no objections if anyone else
wants to pursue this.


Regards,

Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[NoOp <gl...@sbcglobal.net>]

On 10/20/2011 11:28 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
>> shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about OOo
>> 1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
>> obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.
>>
> 
> Yes, there is a MarkMail archive of 333 OOo mailing lists, 1.6 million
> messages, going back to the project's start in 2000.
> 
> See:  http://openoffice.markmail.org/
...

I fail to understand why you continue to fall back on MarkMail for
archives rather than simply pulling the archives over to an Apache
server. MarkMail is a third party service that can terminate it's
services at any time & have their own ToU. See:

http://markmail.org/docs/terms-of-use.xqy
<quote>
2. Provision of Service

You understand and agree that MarkMail is provided to you on an as is
and as available basis. You understand that MarkMail is experimental,
that its availability may be intermittent, and that its content may be
incomplete. Furthermore, We reserve the right, without any notice or
liability to you, to change the functionality of the Service or to cease
providing the Service at any time. Finally, We reserve the right to
refuse service to anyone at our sole discretion.
</quote>

Might be worth reading the entire ToU... and
http://markmail.org/docs/content-policy.xqy
Content Not Complete
Usage and Personal Information

Point is that Apache have no control over MarkMail, or their services.
Should MarkMail go belly up tomorrow Apache would have no archives at
all. Certainly if list archivals like gmane, nabble, and MarkMail can do
this without issue, Apache should be able to do the same... particularly
since the lists are already archived on the kenai servers.

http://kenai.com/projects/ooo-migration/lists
http://kenai.com/projects/ooo-migration/pages/Home

Or am I missing something/misunderstanding your reasoning to rely on a
third party to archive the OOo lists?

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
> shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about OOo
> 1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
> obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.
>

Yes, there is a MarkMail archive of 333 OOo mailing lists, 1.6 million
messages, going back to the project's start in 2000.

See:  http://openoffice.markmail.org/

What may be missing are archives of any private mailing lists.

-Rob

> Just wondering..
>
>
> --
> This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Wolf Halton <wo...@gmail.com>]

Do any of these lists have publicly accessible archives?  It would be a
shame to lose those, when the lists shut down.  I suspect messages about OOo
1.x are pretty much dead, or at least the software is pretty much
obsoleted.  Those archives might be less useful.

Just wondering..


-- 
This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> I did not assert anything about how the auto-subscription offer is done.  I did note that the lists may already be in the custody of a US-hosted system, so transnational border crossing is not involved in any movement of subscribers.  Since this is an opt-in, not an opt-out procedure, it might be considered that the benefit far outweighs the harm.  Of course, this is all speculative because there is likely not time to do any of these things.
>

It still comes down to saving a single mouse click, while also gaining
more spammers.   So the argument is not very persuasive, IMHO.

> My thinking is that the current moderators be the ones best able to determine which subscribers are "real."  Also, the current moderators, if they can be found, are appropriate folks for notifying the lists they moderate of the imminent retirement, the opportunity to subscribe to ooo-listX@ i.a.o, and of the plan to offer them an opt-in message for subscription to ooo-listX.  Also for translating ezmlm messages into the native language that is the working language of a particular list.
>

Volunteers are welcome, to translate and send out the notice to the
various lists.  This includes legacy list moderators.  There will be a
place on the wiki page for anyone to affix their name. I'll send out a
note for any lists that receive no other volunteers.

There is a "moderator" list at OOo.  I can send them a note at the
same time I notify the PPMC that I have the initial migration list
ready for review.  That way any existing moderators can jump in if
they want.

> There are problems when moderators have absented themselves.  Regina just posted a message on ooo-dev looking for a moderator of users@ de.openoffice.org to solve a problem with an user who can't find a way to unsubscribe and whose efforts at following the various instructions have failed.  So there is a problem with moderator abandonment.  It is clear that there are any number of folks still on that list who could moderate it, if there was a way to grant moderation.
>
> Maybe that is something Andrew Rist can help with.
>

As you know, users will always have problems with mailing lists.  This
will be true on Apache lists as well.   I think one thing we'll want
to do is cross-promote the user forums in the initial post, at least
the post to the user forums.

> With regard to pulling the plug, I am not sure how it is possible to even warn folks of this, unless material can be put in known web locations that informs list users of the possible sudden retirement of the lists they subscribe to.  Again, our not having the keys to openoffice.org properties is a barrier.  It might fall on us bloggers to have a joint message that is propagated as far as our reach allows, including the podling blog.
>

Why do you think sending notes to the lists themselves would be
inadequate?  Isn't that the most direct and logical way to engage with
a list subscriber?  The number of list subscribers that also read the
project blog is probably miniscule.  And those would be the ones that
are already more engaged and know what is going on.  But you are
welcome to do a blog post on this if you want.

-Rob

>  - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:24
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>>
>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
>> retired.
>>
>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
>> experiment did.
>>
>
> So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
> all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
> of the lists?
>
> Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user:
>
> 1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
> an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
> first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
> to come unsolicited.
>
> 2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email
>
> 3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
> click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
> in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
> against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
> to join our list?
>
> This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
> volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
> that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
> any such approach.
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>>
>>  - Dennis
>>
>> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>>
>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>>
>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>>
>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>>> list
>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>> could
>>> be considered.
>>>
>>
>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>>
>>
>>>  - Dennis
>>>
>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>
>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>>> useful
>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>>
>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>>
>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>>> @
>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>>> into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>>> owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>>
>>>
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>>
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>>
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>>
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------
>>>
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>>
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>>
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>
>>> or click here:
>>>
>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>>
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>
>
>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

I did not assert anything about how the auto-subscription offer is done.  I did note that the lists may already be in the custody of a US-hosted system, so transnational border crossing is not involved in any movement of subscribers.  Since this is an opt-in, not an opt-out procedure, it might be considered that the benefit far outweighs the harm.  Of course, this is all speculative because there is likely not time to do any of these things.

My thinking is that the current moderators be the ones best able to determine which subscribers are "real."  Also, the current moderators, if they can be found, are appropriate folks for notifying the lists they moderate of the imminent retirement, the opportunity to subscribe to ooo-listX@ i.a.o, and of the plan to offer them an opt-in message for subscription to ooo-listX.  Also for translating ezmlm messages into the native language that is the working language of a particular list.

There are problems when moderators have absented themselves.  Regina just posted a message on ooo-dev looking for a moderator of users@ de.openoffice.org to solve a problem with an user who can't find a way to unsubscribe and whose efforts at following the various instructions have failed.  So there is a problem with moderator abandonment.  It is clear that there are any number of folks still on that list who could moderate it, if there was a way to grant moderation.

Maybe that is something Andrew Rist can help with.

With regard to pulling the plug, I am not sure how it is possible to even warn folks of this, unless material can be put in known web locations that informs list users of the possible sudden retirement of the lists they subscribe to.  Again, our not having the keys to openoffice.org properties is a barrier.  It might fall on us bloggers to have a joint message that is propagated as far as our reach allows, including the podling blog.

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org] 
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 10:24
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
> retired.
>
> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
> experiment did.
>

So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
of the lists?

Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user:

1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
to come unsolicited.

2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email

3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
to join our list?

This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
any such approach.

-Rob



> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>
> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>
> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
> Policy might be the governing situation.
>
> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>> list
>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>> could
>> be considered.
>>
>
> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>
>
>>  - Dennis
>>
>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>
>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>> useful
>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>
>> OPEN ITEMS
>>
>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>> @
>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>> into
>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>> owner"
>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>
>>
>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>
>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>
>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>
>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>
>> To confirm that you would like
>>
>>   foo@bar.com
>>
>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>> a short reply to this address:
>>
>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>
>> or click here:
>>
>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>> -----------------
>>
>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>> to more fully automate this.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> Your technical item was an interesting distraction. It may have a use. I think below you give a good explanation of your plan.
>
> Let me express a recommendation that ought to alleviate my concerns about the full MX issues.
>
> I am still concerned that we may be abandoning a database of over 450,000 OOo users, but that is another, related, topic.
>
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> Rob,
>>>
>>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
>>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
>>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
>>> retired.
>>>
>>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
>>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
>>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
>>> experiment did.
>>>
>>
>> So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
>> all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
>> of the lists?
>>
>> Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user:
>>
>> 1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
>> an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
>> first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
>> to come unsolicited.
>>
>> 2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email
>>
>> 3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
>> click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
>> in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
>> against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
>> to join our list?
>
> Got it. One email - repeated.
>
> If the text around the mailto: informs the user not to use an @openoffice.org address for their new subscription then my concerns are moot. It should be something like "All personal @openoffice.org email address forwarders will be dropped on migration."
>

OOo was providing only a forwarder, right?  No SMTP server for sending
an email from an @openoffice.org address.  So this might solve itself
by the nature of how a user signs up for the list, i.e., by sending an
email from a non-openoffice.org email address.

Or would spoofed return addresses as GMail does them be an issue?  Do
you know off hand if our ezmlm subscribes users via spoofed addresses?
 Or would it only take the real address?

But if technical means are not sufficient, then a message, along the
lines you suggest would work.

> The text of this email needs to be carefully considered on ooo-dev. Since you plan a review then I am fine.
>
> I also think that the one (or more) OOo legacy ML that are being continued should be clearly mentioned as well.
>
> Look at this email as the one opportunity to get a clear message about AOOo out to all of these subscribers. We have a difficult story for the user and it needs to be the most positive and consistent message possible.
>

In some cases this may be the first time that a subscriber has heard
from us.  So yes, we need to make a good first impression.  We're
trying to start or continue a relationship with them.

>>
>> This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
>> volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
>> that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
>> any such approach.
>
> I am looking at this as due diligence before making a decision where there is no going back.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>>>
>>>  - Dennis
>>>
>>> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>
>>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
>>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
>>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
>>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
>>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>>>
>>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
>>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>>>
>>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
>>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>>>> list
>>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>>> could
>>>> be considered.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>>>
>>>
>>>>  - Dennis
>>>>
>>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>>
>>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>>>> useful
>>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>>>
>>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>>>
>>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>>>> @
>>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>>>> into
>>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>>>> owner"
>>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>>>
>>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>>>
>>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>>>
>>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------
>>>>
>>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>>
>>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>>
>>>>   foo@bar.com
>>>>
>>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>>> a short reply to this address:
>>>>
>>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>>
>>>> or click here:
>>>>
>>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>>> -----------------
>>>>
>>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>>> to more fully automate this.
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Hi Rob,

Your technical item was an interesting distraction. It may have a use. I think below you give a good explanation of your plan.

Let me express a recommendation that ought to alleviate my concerns about the full MX issues.

I am still concerned that we may be abandoning a database of over 450,000 OOo users, but that is another, related, topic.

On Oct 20, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> Rob,
>> 
>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
>> retired.
>> 
>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
>> experiment did.
>> 
> 
> So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
> all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
> of the lists?
> 
> Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user:
> 
> 1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
> an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
> first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
> to come unsolicited.
> 
> 2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email
> 
> 3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
> click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
> in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
> against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
> to join our list?

Got it. One email - repeated.

If the text around the mailto: informs the user not to use an @openoffice.org address for their new subscription then my concerns are moot. It should be something like "All personal @openoffice.org email address forwarders will be dropped on migration."

The text of this email needs to be carefully considered on ooo-dev. Since you plan a review then I am fine. 

I also think that the one (or more) OOo legacy ML that are being continued should be clearly mentioned as well.

Look at this email as the one opportunity to get a clear message about AOOo out to all of these subscribers. We have a difficult story for the user and it needs to be the most positive and consistent message possible.

> 
> This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
> volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
> that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
> any such approach.

I am looking at this as due diligence before making a decision where there is no going back.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>> 
>>  - Dennis
>> 
>> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>> 
>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>> 
>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>> 
>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>>> list
>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>> could
>>> be considered.
>>> 
>> 
>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>> 
>> 
>>>  - Dennis
>>> 
>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>> 
>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>>> useful
>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>> 
>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>> 
>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>>> @
>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>>> into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>>> owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>> 
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>> 
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>> 
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>> 
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>> 
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>> 
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>> 
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>> 
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>> 
>>> or click here:
>>> 
>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>>> 
>> 

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> Rob,
>
> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
> retired.
>
> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
> experiment did.
>

So you are recommending that we send an unsolicited opt-in message to
all list subscribers, including the spammers that have taken over many
of the lists?

Work it through and see what the savings in effort really is for the user:

1) They still need to read two emails:  One that tells them to expect
an opt-in email and then the actual opt-in notice.  If we don't do the
first one then the 2nd note will scare many of them, since it appears
to come unsolicited.

2) Whatever we do, they still need to respond to the opt-in email

3) The net savings in effort is that the user does not not need to
click an initial mailto: link to generate the confirmation email.  So
in order to save the user a single click, we're going to risk going
against data protection laws as well as sending an invite to spammers
to join our list?

This makes zero sense for me.  If you want to do it, then please
volunteer.  But as an employee of a large multinational corporation
that does care about data protection laws, I will not be involved in
any such approach.

-Rob



> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>
>  - Dennis
>
> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>
> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>
> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
> Policy might be the governing situation.
>
> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>> list
>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>> could
>> be considered.
>>
>
> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>
>
>>  - Dennis
>>
>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>
>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>> useful
>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>
>> OPEN ITEMS
>>
>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>> @
>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>> into
>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>> owner"
>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>
>>
>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>
>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>
>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>
>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>
>> To confirm that you would like
>>
>>   foo@bar.com
>>
>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>> a short reply to this address:
>>
>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>
>> or click here:
>>
>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>> -----------------
>>
>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>> to more fully automate this.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>]

Am 10/21/2011 12:27 AM, schrieb Kay Schenk:
>
>
> On 10/20/2011 03:22 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
> < -- snipped -->
>
>>>
>>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>>
>>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
>> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>>
>> Regards, Dave
>
> ...and, what's the drop-dead date for these? actually I guess
> anything at
>
> xxxx.services.openoffice.org

If so, then also download.s.oo.o will be dead sooner than later. 
However, we have not done a transition to Apache and its network.

The currently used Mirrorbrain service seems not welcomed at ASF as it 
would mean to install and support another software currently only for 
this podling.

Marcus



>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Rob Weir
>>>> [mailto:robweir@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011
>>>> 09:29 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Proposal]
>>>> Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>>>> <de...@acm.org> wrote:
>>>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful,
>>>>> especially because it is done as an opt-in (requiring
>>>>> confirmation from the recipient). If the list to be retired
>>>>> was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>>>> could be considered.
>>>>>
>>>> I don't see how this could work. Maybe if you happen to be a
>>>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself
>>>> any personal liability related to data protection laws. But I
>>>> don't see how this would work in general. Any thing we do to
>>>> automate this would still require proactive action by the user,
>>>> either sending an email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or
>>>> going to a website and entering their email address. They would
>>>> need to do an action like that, and then respond to the
>>>> confirmation email.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> - Dennis
>>>>>
>>>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>>>
>>>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are
>>>>> ones that are customizable by list. I thought they were. A
>>>>> valuable way to do this might be to include a link to an
>>>>> English-language version of the message in all NL ones.
>>>>> Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable. I
>>>>> notice that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone
>>>>> and that should be preserved, but links to web-based support is
>>>>> also valuable and is very useful to link to. The web page
>>>>> could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists does this one
>>>>> replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>>>>
>>>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the
>>>>> ooo-younameit @ i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than
>>>>> the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Rob Weir
>>>>> [mailto:robweir@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011
>>>>> 07:57 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Proposal]
>>>>> Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote: <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the
>>>>>> mailing list address will change, including all information
>>>>>> about Apache but not requiring users to take action. I
>>>>>> volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into 3 and to subscribe
>>>>>> users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner" of
>>>>>> it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12
>>>>>> lists).
>>>>>>
>>>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the
>>>>> mailing list automatically. I looked just at the technical
>>>>> aspect of this. I did not look at the legal or policy
>>>>> implications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list,
>>>>> by sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.
>>>>> For example, to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would
>>>>> send an email to:
>>>>>
>>>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>>>>
>>>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----------------
>>>>>
>>>>> "Subject: confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at
>>>>> ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>>>
>>>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>>>
>>>>> foo@bar.com
>>>>>
>>>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send a short reply to
>>>>> this address:
>>>>>
>>>>> ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button. If
>>>>> this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>>>
>>>>> or click here:
>>>>>
>>>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>>>>
>>>>>
> -----------------
>>>>>
>>>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a
>>>>> fully automated sign up of existing list members, even if we
>>>>> had resolved the legal and policy issues. I don't know if
>>>>> there are other, administrative functions in ezmlm that could
>>>>> be used, by Apache Infra, to more fully automate this.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Rob

Re: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Daniel,

On Oct 21, 2011, at 12:11 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:

> Seems to me this is too important to get buried in this thread...

Very true. It is a focus for today. There will be tasks for the PPMC in the next week.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
>> 
>>> 
>>> < -- snipped -->
>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>>>>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>>>>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>>>>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>>>>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>>>>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
>>>> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>>>> 
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>> 
>>> ...and, what's the drop-dead date for these?
>> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
>>> 
>>> actually I guess
>>> anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org
>>> 
>> yes - with the caveat that this does not effect hg.services.o.o or
>> svn.services.o.o
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Andrew
>> <snip>
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> Oracle Email Signature Logo
>> Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect
>> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
>> Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847

RE: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Gavin McDonald <ga...@16degrees.com.au>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kazunari Hirano [mailto:khirano@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 21 October 2011 5:23 PM
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting
down
> legacy OOo mailing lists
> 
> Hi Daniel and all,
> 
> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>
> wrote:
> > Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
> >> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
> 
> Does Andrew mean anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org will be closed
> on next Friday, Oct. 28th ?

That's what it sounds like yes.

Gav...

> 
> Thanks,
> khirano

Re: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>]

Hi Daniel and all,

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
>> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday

Does Andrew mean anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org will be
closed on next Friday, Oct. 28th ?

Thanks,
khirano

Re: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Kay - I've made another thread. It has a summary of what's up. I wrote it after talking to Andrew Rist.

Regards,
Dave

On Oct 21, 2011, at 12:27 PM, Kay Schenk wrote:

> You are correct....we need to get on this -- pronto!
> 
> On 10/21/2011 12:11 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
>> Seems to me this is too important to get buried in this thread...
>> 
>> Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> <  -- snipped -->
>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>>>>>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>>>>>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>>>>>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>>>>>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>>>>>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
>>>>> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>> 
>>>> ...and, what's the drop-dead date for these?
>>> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
>>>> 
>>>> actually I guess
>>>> anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org
>>>> 
>>> yes - with the caveat that this does not effect hg.services.o.o or
>>> svn.services.o.o
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Andrew
>>> <snip>
>>> --
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Oracle Email Signature Logo
>>> Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect
>>> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
>>> Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
> 
> "There is no such thing as coincidence."
>           -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

Re: {most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

You are correct....we need to get on this -- pronto!

On 10/21/2011 12:11 AM, Daniel Shahaf wrote:
> Seems to me this is too important to get buried in this thread...
>
> Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
>>
>>>
>>> <  -- snipped -->
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>>>>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>>>>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>>>>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>>>>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>>>>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
>>>> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Dave
>>>
>>> ...and, what's the drop-dead date for these?
>> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
>>>
>>> actually I guess
>>> anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org
>>>
>> yes - with the caveat that this does not effect hg.services.o.o or
>> svn.services.o.o
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew
>> <snip>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Oracle Email Signature Logo
>> Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect
>> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
>> Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There is no such thing as coincidence."
            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

{most}.services.o.o are going away Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>]

Seems to me this is too important to get buried in this thread...

Andrew Rist wrote on Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 15:45:30 -0700:
> 
> >
> >< -- snipped -->
> >
> >>>
> >>>My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
> >>>the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
> >>>contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
> >>>
> >>>Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
> >>>of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
> >>>svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
> >>>need to look at doing the cut-over.
> >>
> >>Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
> >>services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
> >>
> >>Regards, Dave
> >
> >...and, what's the drop-dead date for these?
> We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
> >
> >actually I guess
> >anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org
> >
> yes - with the caveat that this does not effect hg.services.o.o or
> svn.services.o.o
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Andrew
> <snip>
> -- 
> 
> 
> Oracle Email Signature Logo
> Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect
> Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
> Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>]

>
> < -- snipped -->
>
>>>
>>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>>
>>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>>
>> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
>> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>>
>> Regards, Dave
>
> ...and, what's the drop-dead date for these?
We should not expect them to be available after next Friday
>
> actually I guess
> anything at xxxx.services.openoffice.org
>
yes - with the caveat that this does not effect hg.services.o.o or 
svn.services.o.o
>
>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
<snip>
-- 


Oracle Email Signature Logo
Andrew Rist | Interoperability Architect
Oracle Corporate Architecture Group
Redwood Shores, CA | 650.506.9847

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

On 10/20/2011 03:22 PM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:
>
>>
>>
< -- snipped -->

>>
>> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or
>> the forwarding map will be made available. The best approach for
>> contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
>>
>> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any
>> of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg&
>> svn). The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we
>> need to look at doing the cut-over.
>
> Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other
> services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?
>
> Regards, Dave

...and, what's the drop-dead date for these? actually I guess
anything at

xxxx.services.openoffice.org


>
>>
>> Andrew
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Rob Weir
>>> [mailto:robweir@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011
>>> 09:29 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Proposal]
>>> Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>>> <de...@acm.org>   wrote:
>>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful,
>>>> especially because it is done as an opt-in (requiring
>>>> confirmation from the recipient).  If the list to be retired
>>>> was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>>> could be considered.
>>>>
>>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself
>>> any personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I
>>> don't see how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to
>>> automate this would still require proactive action by the user,
>>> either sending an email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or
>>> going to a website and entering their email address.  They would
>>> need to do an action like that, and then respond to the
>>> confirmation email.
>>>
>>>
>>>> - Dennis
>>>>
>>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>>>
>>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are
>>>> ones that are customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A
>>>> valuable way to do this might be to include a link to an
>>>> English-language version of the message in all NL ones.
>>>> Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I
>>>> notice that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone
>>>> and that should be preserved, but links to web-based support is
>>>> also valuable and is very useful to link to.  The web page
>>>> could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists does this one
>>>> replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>>>
>>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>>>
>>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the
>>>> ooo-younameit @ i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than
>>>> the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Rob Weir
>>>> [mailto:robweir@apache.org] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011
>>>> 07:57 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [Proposal]
>>>> Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>>> <pe...@openoffice.org>   wrote: <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the
>>>>> mailing list address will change, including all information
>>>>> about Apache but not requiring users to take action. I
>>>>> volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into 3 and to subscribe
>>>>> users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner" of
>>>>> it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12
>>>>> lists).
>>>>>
>>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the
>>>> mailing list automatically.  I looked just at the technical
>>>> aspect of this.  I did not look at the legal or policy
>>>> implications.
>>>>
>>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list,
>>>> by sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.
>>>> For example, to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would
>>>> send an email to:
>>>>
>>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>>>
>>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------
>>>>
>>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at
>>>> ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>>
>>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>>
>>>> foo@bar.com
>>>>
>>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send a short reply to
>>>> this address:
>>>>
>>>> ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button. If
>>>> this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>>
>>>> or click here:
>>>>
>>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>>>
>>>>
-----------------
>>>>
>>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a
>>>> fully automated sign up of existing list members, even if we
>>>> had resolved the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if
>>>> there are other, administrative functions in ezmlm that could
>>>> be used, by Apache Infra, to more fully automate this.
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>>
>>
>

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There is no such thing as coincidence."
            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 20, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Andrew Rist wrote:

> 
> 
> On 10/20/2011 10:14 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> Rob,
>> 
>> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
>> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
>> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
>> retired.
>> 
>> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
>> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
>> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
>> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
>> experiment did.
>> 
>> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>> 
>>  - Dennis
>> 
>> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>> 
>> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
>> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
>> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
>> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
>> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>> 
>> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
>> Policy might be the governing situation.
>> 
>> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
>> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.
> 
> My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or the forwarding map will be made available.
> The best approach for contacting these users is to send messages to the various ML.
> 
> Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any of the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg & svn).
> The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we need to look at doing the cut-over.

Thanks for the clarification. It really helps. Are there other services that will go away when the forums and mediawiki do?

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Andrew
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
>> <de...@acm.org>  wrote:
>>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>>> list
>>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>>> could
>>> be considered.
>>> 
>> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
>> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
>> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
>> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
>> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
>> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
>> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
>> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>> 
>> 
>>>  - Dennis
>>> 
>>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>> 
>>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>>> useful
>>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>> 
>>> OPEN ITEMS
>>> 
>>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>>> @
>>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pe...@openoffice.org>  wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>>> into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>>> owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>> 
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>> 
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>> 
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>> 
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>> 
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>> 
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>> 
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>> 
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>> 
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>> 
>>> or click here:
>>> 
>>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>>> 
> 

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrew Rist <an...@oracle.com>]

On 10/20/2011 10:14 AM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> Rob,
>
> As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and
> its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me
> that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be
> retired.
>
> The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know
> subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired
> list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail
> addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your
> experiment did.
>
> I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.
>
>   - Dennis
>
> STILL THINKING OUT LOUD
>
> On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the
> new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would
> be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to
> the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to
> follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.
>
> And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy
> Policy might be the governing situation.
>
> Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members,
> announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.

My guess here is that it is highly unlikely that lists of users or the 
forwarding map will be made available.
The best approach for contacting these users is to send messages to the 
various ML.

Also, there is no imminent shutdown of the ML infrastructure or any of 
the other infrastructure hosted on Kenai (including the hg & svn).
The hosting for the forums and wiki is going away, and we need to look 
at doing the cut-over.

Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
> <de...@acm.org>  wrote:
>> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
>> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the
>> list
>> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation
>> could
>> be considered.
>>
> I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
> moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
> personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
> how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
> would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
> email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
> entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
> that, and then respond to the confirmation email.
>
>
>>   - Dennis
>>
>> THINKING OUT LOUD
>>
>> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
>> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
>> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
>> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
>> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
>> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very
>> useful
>> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
>> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>>
>> OPEN ITEMS
>>
>> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit
>> @
>> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
>> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>> <pe...@openoffice.org>  wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>>> into
>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project
>>> owner"
>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>
>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>
>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>
>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>
>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>
>> To confirm that you would like
>>
>>    foo@bar.com
>>
>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>> a short reply to this address:
>>
>>    ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>
>> or click here:
>>
>> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>> -----------------
>>
>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>> to more fully automate this.
>>
>> -Rob
>>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Rob,

As were you, I was looking at the value of the ezmlm confirmation e-mail and 
its opt-in requirement for moderator-initiated subscriptions.  It seemed to me 
that would provide a clean opt-in point for users of lists about to be 
retired.

The process for the moderator-initiated subscription needs to know 
subscription e-mail addresses for the current members of the to-be-retired 
list.    It depends, of course, on a moderator having the subscriber e-mail 
addresses, and I did not indicate how that could be solved any more than your 
experiment did.

I think the modifications to ezmlm messages is important regardless.

 - Dennis

STILL THINKING OUT LOUD

On the other hand, making moderators of the current list be moderators on the 
new list and being sure that they notify the list of the move prospect would 
be a way to subdivide the work with people who presumably do have access to 
the distribution list of the retiring ML.  Those moderators can be expected to 
follow the rules that apply in their jurisdictions.

And wait: Aren't the lists on a US hosted site already?  The Oracle Privacy 
Policy might be the governing situation.

Providing an opt-in migration that is not a surprise to the list members, 
announced clearly in advance, might be a clean way to navigate all of this.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 09:29
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the 
> list
> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation 
> could
> be considered.
>

I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
that, and then respond to the confirmation email.


>  - Dennis
>
> THINKING OUT LOUD
>
> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very 
> useful
> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>
> OPEN ITEMS
>
> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit 
> @
> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists 
>> into
>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project 
>> owner"
>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>
>
> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>
> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>
> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>
> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>
> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>
>
> -----------------
>
> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>
> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>
> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>
> To confirm that you would like
>
>   foo@bar.com
>
> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
> a short reply to this address:
>
>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>
> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
> the "To:" field of a new message.
>
> or click here:
> 
> mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
> -----------------
>
> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
> to more fully automate this.
>
> -Rob
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it
> is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the list
> to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation could
> be considered.
>

I don't see how this could work.  Maybe if you happen to be a
moderator of the legacy list and are willing to take on yourself any
personal liability related to data protection laws.  But I don't see
how this would work in general.  Any thing we do to automate this
would still require proactive action by the user, either sending an
email, clicking a mailto: link in an email, or going to a website and
entering their email address.  They would need to do an action like
that, and then respond to the confirmation email.


>  - Dennis
>
> THINKING OUT LOUD
>
> With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are
> customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might
> be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL
> ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice
> that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be
> preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very useful
> to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists
> does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.
>
> OPEN ITEMS
>
> It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit @
> i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>
>
> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>
> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>
> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>
> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>
> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>
>
> -----------------
>
> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>
> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>
> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>
> To confirm that you would like
>
>   foo@bar.com
>
> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
> a short reply to this address:
>
>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>
> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
> the "To:" field of a new message.
>
> or click here:
>                 mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
> -----------------
>
> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
> to more fully automate this.
>
> -Rob
>

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

The moderator-issued subscription e-mail seems useful, especially because it 
is done as an opt-in (requiring confirmation from the recipient).  If the list 
to be retired was informed of this process, its near-automatic operation could 
be considered.

 - Dennis

THINKING OUT LOUD

With regard to the messages from ezmlm, I wonder if these are ones that are 
customizable by list.  I thought they were.  A valuable way to do this might 
be to include a link to an English-language version of the message in all NL 
ones.  Pointing to other useful web pages might also be valuable.  I notice 
that ezmlm is designed to work relying on e-mail alone and that should be 
preserved, but links to web-based support is also valuable and is very useful 
to link to.  The web page could also deal with thing such as what OOo lists 
does this one replace, where are the archives for the original list(s), etc.

OPEN ITEMS

It strikes me that there remains the issue I see, in that the ooo-younameit @ 
i.a.o lists are considerably less friendly than the theynamedit@ OO.o lists.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob Weir [mailto:robweir@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 07:57
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
<pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
<snip>

> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>

I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
not look at the legal or policy implications.

Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:

ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org

Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =

A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:


-----------------

"Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.

I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.

To confirm that you would like

   foo@bar.com

added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
a short reply to this address:

   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org

Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
the "To:" field of a new message.

or click here:
		 mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
-----------------

So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
to more fully automate this.

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>]

On 20/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
> I  mentioned the technical details of moderator-initiated
> subscriptions merely as a follow up to a side proposal that Andrea had
> made for the Italian lists.

Thanks for trying and reporting. I see that, as you wrote later and 
Oracle confirmed, corporate policies can get in the way, but still it is 
very useful to have information on the technical feasibility of a 
complete list migration.

I understand, however, that the attention will now need to be shifted to 
the more urgent services.openoffice.org migration, where we have a lot 
of not widely known services needing attention. But I'll raise these 
issues on the dedicated threads.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 12:51 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Rob,
>>>
>>> This is excellent.
>>>
>>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>>>
>>> I'm not a lawyer, but if a user has to approve the new subscription that may be enough to meet even the highest privacy requirements.
>>>
>>> Next steps if we were to proceed:
>>>
>>> (1) Getting the emails from Oracle.
>>>
>>
>> That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
>> ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
>> Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
>> they would make this data available to us.
>
> You are making an assumption. If we asked for only the map of OOo to real emails so that we can handle the retirement of the forwarder in some way other than the most precipitous (goes away when the OOo MX moves away from Oracle) we might have a chance. I suppose someone will need to ask Andrew Rist.
>

My pessimism based on previous conversations should not deter you, if
you want to give this a try.

>> I was speaking only to the technical steps that someone might take.
>
> Concrete abilities are good to discuss. I thought you were leading us somewhere.
>
>> In any case, I look at this a little differently.  We don't need pure
>> numbers.  We're not looking for passive viewers.  If someone is so
>> disengaged that they are unwilling to subscribe to a new list, then
>> they are probably not going to be active project members.  And if they
>> find using mailing lists difficult, then maybe we should be pointing
>> them to the phpBB forums, as an easier interface to use?  And for
>> ourtreach where we are looking to get the message out to the maximum
>> number of users, then we should be looking at social media;  our blog,
>> Twitter, Facebook, etc.
>
> I don't want to bikeshed on Social Networks and ML vs. Fora, I want to focus on what is going to actually happen to the OOo MX and ML infrastructure.
>

Focus is good.  I'm focusing on the mailing lists.

>>
>>> (2) Consider the @openoffice.org forwarder and that many subscriptions to the OOo MLs use that address. If we had that email map even if scrubbed of the name then we can apply that transformation as well.
>>>
>>
>> The email forwarding service is something entirely different.  I'm not
>> touching that at all in my proposal.  It is an independent migration
>> topic.  As far as I can tell no one has volunteered to do that.
>
> So, you have no real plans to implement re-subscription? Or, if you do you don't have a problem resubscribing people with emails addresses that are going away in another month?
>

Go back and read my proposal.  It never mentioned auto-subscribing
people.  I  mentioned the technical details of moderator-initiated
subscriptions merely as a follow up to a side proposal that Andrea had
made for the Italian lists.

>
>>
>>> The subscribe email sent would then use the personal email.
>>>
>>> The list of OOo emails would be useful for sending warnings that these "vanity" ids are going away.
>>>
>>> It would be great to have a single message about the OOo MX transition.
>>>
>>
>> If there is consensus on how we are treating the email forwarder, we
>> can certainly mention that in the post to the lists.  But even if we
>> don't have an answer on this yet, we can link to a "migration update"
>> page that can be kept current with our high-level status of interest
>> to the wider ecosystem.
>
> Whatever we say about the OOo ML and MX transition needs to be based in fact and not assumptions.
>

It will be based on consensus, and consensus may be based on
assumptions.   In any case it will be on the wiki.  Edits will be
welcome.

>>
>>> Of note, securityteam@oo.o is being kept. Are there other community MLs on OOo that should be kept? That's part of your inventory ;-)
>>>
>>
>> I'm not touching private lists, at least not initially.  I'm looking
>> only at the most-used lists, maybe the top 50 community lists or so.
>> We can iterate.  We don't need to do it all at once.
>
> There will be community lists in addition to securityteam@ that will need to be considered.
>

The lists are general of three kinds:

1) Project related lists, for people who are working on core product
functions, dev, qa, translation, marketing, etc.  These naturally fit
into the existing ooo lists, once we have the marketing list created.
We can add more in the future, if ooo-dev gets a drastic increase in
traffic.  We balance community inclusiveness with focus.  We're
already have the 2nd highest traffic list Apache-wide.  At some point
we may need to look at things like ooo-doc or ooo-l10n.  But I think
we should start of with the project related lists going simply between
ooo-dev and ooo-marketing for now.

2) User lists -- and this includes the "discuss" lists and their
variations in a variety of languages.  These are end users, less adept
at mailing lists.  We'll need some care in migrating these lists.
I'll have another note on this.

3) "Utility" lists, generally one-way broadcasts of source control,
issue tracker notifications and similar.  I propose that these not be
migrated.

> Given the repeated warnings we are getting about Oracle imminent removal of some resources. I think we are going to need to execute a plan that encompasses what happens to all of the OOo MX at once and in a coherent manner.
>

My grandmother used to say, "Spit in one hand and wish into the other
and see which one has more".  I'm volunteering to do the work on part
of this effort, the part that is related to the mailing lists,  a part
that interests me and which I think is important.  That does not
preclude anyone else from volunteering to do other parts.  But it will
take more than just wishing.

> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>>>
>>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>>>
>>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----------------
>>>>
>>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>>>
>>>> To confirm that you would like
>>>>
>>>>   foo@bar.com
>>>>
>>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>>> a short reply to this address:
>>>>
>>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>>>
>>>> or click here:
>>>>                mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>>> -----------------
>>>>
>>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>>> to more fully automate this.
>>>>
>>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 20, 2011, at 9:20 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi Rob,
>> 
>> This is excellent.
>> 
>> On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> 
>>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>> 
>> I'm not a lawyer, but if a user has to approve the new subscription that may be enough to meet even the highest privacy requirements.
>> 
>> Next steps if we were to proceed:
>> 
>> (1) Getting the emails from Oracle.
>> 
> 
> That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
> ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
> Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
> they would make this data available to us.

You are making an assumption. If we asked for only the map of OOo to real emails so that we can handle the retirement of the forwarder in some way other than the most precipitous (goes away when the OOo MX moves away from Oracle) we might have a chance. I suppose someone will need to ask Andrew Rist.

> I was speaking only to the technical steps that someone might take.

Concrete abilities are good to discuss. I thought you were leading us somewhere.

> In any case, I look at this a little differently.  We don't need pure
> numbers.  We're not looking for passive viewers.  If someone is so
> disengaged that they are unwilling to subscribe to a new list, then
> they are probably not going to be active project members.  And if they
> find using mailing lists difficult, then maybe we should be pointing
> them to the phpBB forums, as an easier interface to use?  And for
> ourtreach where we are looking to get the message out to the maximum
> number of users, then we should be looking at social media;  our blog,
> Twitter, Facebook, etc.

I don't want to bikeshed on Social Networks and ML vs. Fora, I want to focus on what is going to actually happen to the OOo MX and ML infrastructure.

> 
>> (2) Consider the @openoffice.org forwarder and that many subscriptions to the OOo MLs use that address. If we had that email map even if scrubbed of the name then we can apply that transformation as well.
>> 
> 
> The email forwarding service is something entirely different.  I'm not
> touching that at all in my proposal.  It is an independent migration
> topic.  As far as I can tell no one has volunteered to do that.

So, you have no real plans to implement re-subscription? Or, if you do you don't have a problem resubscribing people with emails addresses that are going away in another month?


> 
>> The subscribe email sent would then use the personal email.
>> 
>> The list of OOo emails would be useful for sending warnings that these "vanity" ids are going away.
>> 
>> It would be great to have a single message about the OOo MX transition.
>> 
> 
> If there is consensus on how we are treating the email forwarder, we
> can certainly mention that in the post to the lists.  But even if we
> don't have an answer on this yet, we can link to a "migration update"
> page that can be kept current with our high-level status of interest
> to the wider ecosystem.

Whatever we say about the OOo ML and MX transition needs to be based in fact and not assumptions.

> 
>> Of note, securityteam@oo.o is being kept. Are there other community MLs on OOo that should be kept? That's part of your inventory ;-)
>> 
> 
> I'm not touching private lists, at least not initially.  I'm looking
> only at the most-used lists, maybe the top 50 community lists or so.
> We can iterate.  We don't need to do it all at once.

There will be community lists in addition to securityteam@ that will need to be considered.

Given the repeated warnings we are getting about Oracle imminent removal of some resources. I think we are going to need to execute a plan that encompasses what happens to all of the OOo MX at once and in a coherent manner.

Regards,
Dave

> 
> -Rob
> 
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>> 
>>> 
>>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>> 
>>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>> 
>>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>> 
>>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>> 
>>> To confirm that you would like
>>> 
>>>   foo@bar.com
>>> 
>>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>>> a short reply to this address:
>>> 
>>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>> 
>>> or click here:
>>>                mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>>> -----------------
>>> 
>>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>>> to more fully automate this.
>>> 
>>> -Rob
>> 
>> 

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>]

On 22/10/2011 Dave Fisher wrote:
> On Oct 21, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:
>> I would prefer that I was simply subscribed so
>> that I could do minimal work to make it happen. ...
> Unfortunately we will not be getting any user lists from Oracle so an
> automatic re-subscription is not possible.

This specific problem can easily be circumvented for most lists, since 
all project owners have access to the subscriber list for all mailing 
lists of their project (including delivery options).

A lot of project owners and moderators are here and I think that also 
people at TeamOpenOffice.org could extract subscriber lists from the 
Kenai infrastructure if needed.

So the issue is more whether people here think it would be useful or not 
to retrieve subscriber lists from Kenai (in doubt, I would retrieve them 
and decide later if and when to use them, but as I wrote earlier I 
understand that policies can get in the way).

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 21, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote:

> On 10/20/2011 12:20 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>> That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
>> ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
>> Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
>> they would make this data available to us.
>> 
> It may suffice to simply send an email to the legacy lists (if they are up) and recommend that those with interest subscribe to the new lists. That said, I would prefer that I was simply subscribed so that I could do minimal work to make it happen.

This is the essence of Rob's plan.

Unfortunately we will not be getting any user lists from Oracle so an automatic re-subscription is not possible.

Regards,
DAve

> 
> -- 
> Andrew Pitonyak
> My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
> Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
> 

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>]

On 10/20/2011 12:20 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net>  wrote:
> That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
> ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
> Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
> they would make this data available to us.
>
It may suffice to simply send an email to the legacy lists (if they are 
up) and recommend that those with interest subscribe to the new lists. 
That said, I would prefer that I was simply subscribed so that I could 
do minimal work to make it happen.

-- 
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
> This is excellent.
>
> On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
>> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>>>
>>
>> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
>> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
>> not look at the legal or policy implications.
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but if a user has to approve the new subscription that may be enough to meet even the highest privacy requirements.
>
> Next steps if we were to proceed:
>
> (1) Getting the emails from Oracle.
>

That may not be possible.  It depends on how Oracle understands the
ToU for the legacy lists and relevant data protection laws.
Corporations tend to be conservative and risk-averse, I do not think
they would make this data available to us.

I was speaking only to the technical steps that someone might take.

In any case, I look at this a little differently.  We don't need pure
numbers.  We're not looking for passive viewers.  If someone is so
disengaged that they are unwilling to subscribe to a new list, then
they are probably not going to be active project members.  And if they
find using mailing lists difficult, then maybe we should be pointing
them to the phpBB forums, as an easier interface to use?  And for
ourtreach where we are looking to get the message out to the maximum
number of users, then we should be looking at social media;  our blog,
Twitter, Facebook, etc.

> (2) Consider the @openoffice.org forwarder and that many subscriptions to the OOo MLs use that address. If we had that email map even if scrubbed of the name then we can apply that transformation as well.
>

The email forwarding service is something entirely different.  I'm not
touching that at all in my proposal.  It is an independent migration
topic.  As far as I can tell no one has volunteered to do that.

> The subscribe email sent would then use the personal email.
>
> The list of OOo emails would be useful for sending warnings that these "vanity" ids are going away.
>
> It would be great to have a single message about the OOo MX transition.
>

If there is consensus on how we are treating the email forwarder, we
can certainly mention that in the post to the lists.  But even if we
don't have an answer on this yet, we can link to a "migration update"
page that can be kept current with our high-level status of interest
to the wider ecosystem.

> Of note, securityteam@oo.o is being kept. Are there other community MLs on OOo that should be kept? That's part of your inventory ;-)
>

I'm not touching private lists, at least not initially.  I'm looking
only at the most-used lists, maybe the top 50 community lists or so.
We can iterate.  We don't need to do it all at once.

-Rob

> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
>> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
>> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
>>
>> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
>>
>> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
>> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>>
>> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
>> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
>>
>> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
>> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
>>
>> To confirm that you would like
>>
>>   foo@bar.com
>>
>> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
>> a short reply to this address:
>>
>>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
>>
>> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
>> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
>> the "To:" field of a new message.
>>
>> or click here:
>>                mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
>> -----------------
>>
>> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
>> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
>> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
>> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
>> to more fully automate this.
>>
>> -Rob
>
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

Hi Rob,

This is excellent.

On Oct 20, 2011, at 7:57 AM, Rob Weir wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
> <pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> <snip>
> 
>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
>> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
>> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>> 
> 
> I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
> automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
> not look at the legal or policy implications.

I'm not a lawyer, but if a user has to approve the new subscription that may be enough to meet even the highest privacy requirements.

Next steps if we were to proceed:

(1) Getting the emails from Oracle.

(2) Consider the @openoffice.org forwarder and that many subscriptions to the OOo MLs use that address. If we had that email map even if scrubbed of the name then we can apply that transformation as well.

The subscribe email sent would then use the personal email.

The list of OOo emails would be useful for sending warnings that these "vanity" ids are going away.

It would be great to have a single message about the OOo MX transition.

Of note, securityteam@oo.o is being kept. Are there other community MLs on OOo that should be kept? That's part of your inventory ;-)

Regards,
Dave

> 
> Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
> sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
> to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:
> 
> ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
> 
> Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =
> 
> A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
> confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:
> 
> 
> -----------------
> 
> "Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> 
> Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
> ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.
> 
> I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
> at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.
> 
> To confirm that you would like
> 
>   foo@bar.com
> 
> added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
> a short reply to this address:
> 
>   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org
> 
> Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
> If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
> the "To:" field of a new message.
> 
> or click here:
> 		 mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
> -----------------
> 
> So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
> automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
> the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
> administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
> to more fully automate this.
> 
> -Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
<pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
<snip>

> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>

I did an experiment on how we can subscribe users to the mailing list
automatically.  I looked just at the technical aspect of this.  I did
not look at the legal or policy implications.

Moderators of Apache lists can subscribe new users to the list, by
sending a specially addressed email to the list manager.  For example,
to subscribe foo@bar.com to this list, you would send an email to:

ooo-dev-subscribe-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org

Note the @ in the address is replaced by an =

A moderator can do the above, but this still will generate a
confirmation email, to foo@bar.com, in English:


-----------------

"Subject:  confirm subscribe to ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org

Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the
ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org mailing list.

I'm working for my owner, who can be reached
at ooo-dev-owner@incubator.apache.org.

To confirm that you would like

   foo@bar.com

added to the ooo-dev mailing list, please send
a short reply to this address:

   ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org

Usually, this happens when you just hit the "reply" button.
If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into
the "To:" field of a new message.

or click here:
		 mailto:ooo-dev-sc.XXXXX.XXXXXX-foo=bar.com@incubator.apache.org"
-----------------

So with the moderator rights available to us now, we can't do a fully
automated sign up of existing list members, even if we had resolved
the legal and policy issues.  I don't know if there are other,
administrative functions in ezmlm that could be used, by Apache Infra,
to more fully automate this.

-Rob

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[imacat <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>]

So, is there any progress on this?  The spam notifications to the zh
lists are really annoying. ^^;

On 2011/11/06 06:26, Andrea Pescetti said:
> On 19/10/2011 Dennis E. Hamilton ha scritto:
>> Can you assist us in connecting with other Native Language
>> List (NL-list) moderators and enlisting them in providing similar
>> support for
>> their communities of users?
> 
> I just took the occasion of an e-mail to the native-lang list to urge
> other volunteers to do the same.
> 
> Maybe it would help if people who post on the (so-called "legacy")
> OpenOffice.org mailing list used a simple signature like
>   --
> This mailing list will be shut down soon. Please subscribe to ooo-dev:
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/
>   --
> as a permanent reminder. I think I'll use it for the mailing lists in
> English to which I post, since all of them will be mapped to ooo-dev.
> 
> Regards,
>   Andrea.


-- 
Best regards,
imacat ^_*' <im...@mail.imacat.idv.tw>
PGP Key http://www.imacat.idv.tw/me/pgpkey.asc

<<Woman's Voice>> News: http://www.wov.idv.tw/
Tavern IMACAT's http://www.imacat.idv.tw/
Woman in FOSS in Taiwan http://wofoss.blogspot.com/
Apache OpenOffice http://www.openoffice.org/
EducOO/OOo4Kids Taiwan http://www.educoo.tw/

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>]

On 19/10/2011 Dennis E. Hamilton ha scritto:
> Can you assist us in connecting with other Native Language
> List (NL-list) moderators and enlisting them in providing similar support for
> their communities of users?

I just took the occasion of an e-mail to the native-lang list to urge 
other volunteers to do the same.

Maybe it would help if people who post on the (so-called "legacy") 
OpenOffice.org mailing list used a simple signature like
   --
This mailing list will be shut down soon. Please subscribe to ooo-dev:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/
   --
as a permanent reminder. I think I'll use it for the mailing lists in 
English to which I post, since all of them will be mapped to ooo-dev.

Regards,
   Andrea.

RE: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

["Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>]

Andrea,

Splendido!  Piacere! +1

That's wonderful.  Can you assist us in connecting with other Native Language 
List (NL-list) moderators and enlisting them in providing similar support for 
their communities of users?

 - Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pescetti@openoffice.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 13:11
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this

I find the plan well-thought and I agree it is vital to act before the
existing infrastructure is abandoned, but I propose to make some changes
and I volunteer to lead this alternative migration at least for the 12
mailing lists on the it.openoffice.org domain. See below for details.

> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

Perfect. Actually, I remember I already provided this information on a
wiki page with the "top lists" you created some weeks ago.

> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.

The fundamental difference is here: the N-L mailing lists (including the
Italian ones) mostly target end users. We shouldn't put any burden on
them or expect them to be able to follow processes and confirmation
e-mails in other languages.

And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not
of disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing
lists) shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old
OpenOffice.org is dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the
product our users will be talking about in the mailing lists is still
the "old" OpenOffice.org, and the fact that the new home is at Apache is
not a fundamental difference to them; they will continue using the
product and taking care, when the time comes, of localization and QA; we
would scare users and contributors away by describing an "old/dead"
OpenOffice.org.

I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
address will change, including all information about Apache but not
requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
into 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being
"project owner" of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers
to the 12 lists).

One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of
view, we are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a
migration. I read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to
help spammers this way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and
it would be a suicidal move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing
lists and leave the majority of users in a position where they can say
"OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point that even the peer-support mailing
lists have been shut down".

> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other 
> languages.
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the 
> lists.
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.

OK about this.

> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses
still work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed
by a silent closure of the old addresses.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>]

On Oct 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:

> Shane Curcuru wrote:
>> Note that I disagree with having three lists; I would far prefer to
>> start with a single list per NL.
> 
> No problem about this; I was merely envisioning a structure where we had an "announcements" list (300 subscribers now) and two discussion lists, one for users (consolidating a few lists, 700 subscribers) and one for volunteers (consolidating the remaining ones). But it's not imperative for me to start with 3 lists.
> 
>> Actually, I'm pretty sure we will not be mass-subscribing users. That is
>> generally regarded as a very bad idea in Apache projects
> 
> Here the fundamental issue is that we are transferring mailing lists (and consolidating them in the process); the fact that we will create new lists instead of reconfiguring the current server is merely a technical preference.

It is NOT merely a technical preference. Currently the ML are within Oracle hosted infrastructure. Whatever ML are created or transferred will be run from within ASF hosted infrastructure.

> 
> I'm against auto-subscribing people to new lists too in general, but I do not recognize this case as "creation of new mailing lists": we would just be MOVING mailing lists, in accordance with the old server maintainers, to give continuity to the project. And losing most of our subscribers in the process due to (their!) sloppiness would be a huge setback for OpenOffice.org.

If there is a legal way to transfer all the subscribers of user@oo.o to ooo-users@i.a.o we should consider it. I don't have the time to find this out, but if someone can navigate this part I would support the effort.

Regards,
Dave


> 
> Regards,
>  Andrea.

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>]

Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Note that I disagree with having three lists; I would far prefer to
> start with a single list per NL.

No problem about this; I was merely envisioning a structure where we had 
an "announcements" list (300 subscribers now) and two discussion lists, 
one for users (consolidating a few lists, 700 subscribers) and one for 
volunteers (consolidating the remaining ones). But it's not imperative 
for me to start with 3 lists.

> Actually, I'm pretty sure we will not be mass-subscribing users. That is
> generally regarded as a very bad idea in Apache projects

Here the fundamental issue is that we are transferring mailing lists 
(and consolidating them in the process); the fact that we will create 
new lists instead of reconfiguring the current server is merely a 
technical preference.

I'm against auto-subscribing people to new lists too in general, but I 
do not recognize this case as "creation of new mailing lists": we would 
just be MOVING mailing lists, in accordance with the old server 
maintainers, to give continuity to the project. And losing most of our 
subscribers in the process due to (their!) sloppiness would be a huge 
setback for OpenOffice.org.

Regards,
   Andrea.

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>]

On 10/19/2011 01:18 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Two important comments:
>
> On 10/19/2011 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>> On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
> ...snip...
>
>> And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not
>> of disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing
>> lists) shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old
>> OpenOffice.org is dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the
>> product our users will be talking about in the mailing lists is still
>> the "old" OpenOffice.org, and the fact that the new home is at Apache is
>> not a fundamental difference to them; they will continue using the
>> product and taking care, when the time comes, of localization and QA; we
>> would scare users and contributors away by describing an "old/dead"
>> OpenOffice.org.
>>
>> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
>> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
>> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
>> into 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being
>> "project owner" of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers
>> to the 12 lists).
>
> I agree that the message should be positive, and that it's a change of
> mailing list name, but it will still be used to help support users.
>
> Note that I disagree with having three lists; I would far prefer to
> start with a single list per NL. We've found in most projects that
> having fewer lists encourages a stronger community.

I would think one list per N-L would be fine for now. It would make 
where to go for what easier to manage in any case.

>
> In any case, details of which lists are which can be worked out in the
> wiki page listing the mappings, I'd hope.
>
>> One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of
>> view, we are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a
>> migration. I read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to
>> help spammers this way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and
>> it would be a suicidal move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing
>> lists and leave the majority of users in a position where they can say
>> "OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point that even the peer-support mailing
>> lists have been shut down".
>
> Actually, I'm pretty sure we will not be mass-subscribing users. That is
> generally regarded as a very bad idea in Apache projects, and given EU
> privacy laws I'm not even sure we should be auto-subscribing people to
> new lists. Rob noted, instead, that we'd make it easy for users on a
> specific list to click a link to subscribe to the new, equivalent list.
>
> ...snip...
>>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>>> the lists, per:
>>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>>
>> I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses
>> still work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed
>> by a silent closure of the old addresses.
>
> I like the idea of the transfer period being a month instead of two
> weeks, if we believe the existing servers will last that long. Many
> users may not check these lists that often. But that's just my suggestion.
>
> - Shane

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK

"There is no such thing as coincidence."
            -- Leroy Jethro Gibbs, Rule #39

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>]

Two important comments:

On 10/19/2011 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
...snip...

> And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not
> of disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing
> lists) shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old
> OpenOffice.org is dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the
> product our users will be talking about in the mailing lists is still
> the "old" OpenOffice.org, and the fact that the new home is at Apache is
> not a fundamental difference to them; they will continue using the
> product and taking care, when the time comes, of localization and QA; we
> would scare users and contributors away by describing an "old/dead"
> OpenOffice.org.
>
> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists
> into 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being
> "project owner" of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers
> to the 12 lists).

I agree that the message should be positive, and that it's a change of 
mailing list name, but it will still be used to help support users.

Note that I disagree with having three lists; I would far prefer to 
start with a single list per NL.  We've found in most projects that 
having fewer lists encourages a stronger community.

In any case, details of which lists are which can be worked out in the 
wiki page listing the mappings, I'd hope.

> One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of
> view, we are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a
> migration. I read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to
> help spammers this way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and
> it would be a suicidal move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing
> lists and leave the majority of users in a position where they can say
> "OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point that even the peer-support mailing
> lists have been shut down".

Actually, I'm pretty sure we will not be mass-subscribing users.  That 
is generally regarded as a very bad idea in Apache projects, and given 
EU privacy laws I'm not even sure we should be auto-subscribing people 
to new lists.  Rob noted, instead, that we'd make it easy for users on a 
specific list to click a link to subscribe to the new, equivalent list.

...snip...
>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>> the lists, per:
>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>
> I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses
> still work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed
> by a silent closure of the old addresses.

I like the idea of the transfer period being a month instead of two 
weeks, if we believe the existing servers will last that long.  Many 
users may not check these lists that often.  But that's just my suggestion.

- Shane

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>]

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Andrea Pescetti
<pe...@openoffice.org> wrote:
> On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
>> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
>> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
>> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
>> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this
>
> I find the plan well-thought and I agree it is vital to act before the
> existing infrastructure is abandoned, but I propose to make some changes and
> I volunteer to lead this alternative migration at least for the 12 mailing
> lists on the it.openoffice.org domain. See below for details.
>

Great.  I welcome the offer of help.  Let's coordinate on the wiki.

>> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
>> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
>> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
>> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
>> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed
>> to.
>
> Perfect. Actually, I remember I already provided this information on a wiki
> page with the "top lists" you created some weeks ago.
>

I plan on refreshing that list for this effort.  So expect updated data.

>> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
>> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
>> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
>> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
>> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
>> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
>> posting date.
>
> The fundamental difference is here: the N-L mailing lists (including the
> Italian ones) mostly target end users. We shouldn't put any burden on them
> or expect them to be able to follow processes and confirmation e-mails in
> other languages.
>

We should do some tests to see if we can eliminate the technical
requirement for a confirmation.  List moderators can subscribe users.
But I'm not sure if that triggers a confirmation email to them or not.
 But this is easy to test.

> And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not of
> disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing lists)
> shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old OpenOffice.org is
> dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the product our users will
> be talking about in the mailing lists is still the "old" OpenOffice.org, and
> the fact that the new home is at Apache is not a fundamental difference to
> them; they will continue using the product and taking care, when the time
> comes, of localization and QA; we would scare users and contributors away by
> describing an "old/dead" OpenOffice.org.
>

I agree.  In many cases this will be the first official message that
the Apache project has given to the lists.  It is long overdue.  We
need to make sure it is a good message.  I do not plan on sending any
message before it is reviewed here on ooo-dev.

> I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list
> address will change, including all information about Apache but not
> requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists into
> 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being "project owner"
> of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers to the 12 lists).
>

Let's map this out on the wiki, to see exactly what new lists we need.

> One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of view, we
> are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a migration. I
> read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to help spammers this
> way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and it would be a suicidal
> move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing lists and leave the majority of
> users in a position where they can say "OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point
> that even the peer-support mailing lists have been shut down".
>
>> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other
>> languages.
>> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the
>> lists.
>> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.
>
> OK about this.
>
>> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
>> the lists, per:
>> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists
>
> I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses still
> work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed by a
> silent closure of the old addresses.
>

I don;t think we want to set up forwarders for just two weeks.  At
least I'm not volunteering to do that.  But I am happy to extend the
period between initial notification and shutdown.  We could even
repeat the notification and migration instructions.

> Regards,
>  Andrea.
>

Re: [Proposal] Shutting down legacy OOo mailing lists

[Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>]

On 17/10/2011 Rob Weir wrote:
> I'm making a proposal now to shut down the legacy OOo mailing lists
> and direct the existing subscribers to one of the AOOo mailing lists.
> I realize that this is not the solution that many of us would prefer,
> but I believe that it is the best way forward that anyone is willing
> to volunteer to lead.  Please delight me by proving me wrong on this

I find the plan well-thought and I agree it is vital to act before the 
existing infrastructure is abandoned, but I propose to make some changes 
and I volunteer to lead this alternative migration at least for the 12 
mailing lists on the it.openoffice.org domain. See below for details.

> 1) Make a list of all public legacy OOo mailing lists that have
> received at least 5 non-spam email in 2011.
> 2) Publish that list on the wiki, along with :
> a) the language predominately spoken on the list, if not English
> b) the recommended AOOo list that existing subscribers should be pointed to.

Perfect. Actually, I remember I already provided this information on a 
wiki page with the "top lists" you created some weeks ago.

> 3) I will then draft, in English,  a post to be send to the above
> lists.  The post will talk about the overall effort of the migration
> to Apache, the specific migration of the mailing lists, and invite the
> subscribers to stay informed and to participate in the new Apache
> lists.  Information on how to subscribe will be provided.  A shutdown
> date, for the legacy lists will be included, two weeks from the
> posting date.

The fundamental difference is here: the N-L mailing lists (including the 
Italian ones) mostly target end users. We shouldn't put any burden on 
them or expect them to be able to follow processes and confirmation 
e-mails in other languages.

And (this is a vital detail) we should give a message of continuity, not 
of disruption. We (in this context, i.e., Italian end-users mailing 
lists) shouldn't communicate in a way that implies that the old 
OpenOffice.org is dead and that a new OpenOffice.org is born, since the 
product our users will be talking about in the mailing lists is still 
the "old" OpenOffice.org, and the fact that the new home is at Apache is 
not a fundamental difference to them; they will continue using the 
product and taking care, when the time comes, of localization and QA; we 
would scare users and contributors away by describing an "old/dead" 
OpenOffice.org.

I would turn the post you describe into a warning that the mailing list 
address will change, including all information about Apache but not 
requiring users to take action. I volunteer to consolidate the 12 lists 
into 3 and to subscribe users to the right ones (of course, being 
"project owner" of it.openoffice.org, I have a list of all subscribers 
to the 12 lists).

One can find flaws in this process since, from a technical point of 
view, we are mass-subscribing users; but remember that this is just a 
migration. I read your remarks in other threads, but we don't risk to 
help spammers this way (there is no spam on the 12 lists I monitor) and 
it would be a suicidal move for OpenOffice.org to shut down mailing 
lists and leave the majority of users in a position where they can say 
"OpenOffice.org is dead, to the point that even the peer-support mailing 
lists have been shut down".

> 4) I will invite volunteers to translate the draft post into other languages.
> 5) I, and whatever volunteers wish to help, will send the posts to the lists.
> 6) The note will be repeated a week later.

OK about this.

> 7) After two weeks we request via Oracle that the Kenai admins close
> the lists, per:
> http://kenai.com/projects/help/pages/ManageProject#MailingLists

I would change this into a one-month period in which the old addresses 
still work but just as forwarders to the new (remapped) lists, followed 
by a silent closure of the old addresses.

Regards,
   Andrea.