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Posted to user@velocity.apache.org by Kevin Baynes <kb...@seagullsw.com> on 2002/07/24 19:10:04 UTC
RE: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Have you looked at Turbine, WebWork or JPublish?
http://www.jpublish.org/
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/
http://opensymphony.com/webwork/
~k
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Victor Rodriguez [mailto:victor@www.ximis.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:41 PM
> To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I'm trying to get a MVC framework to go with Velocity. So
> far I think I
> like Maverick, but haven't really tested it. Has anyone have experience
> with it?
>
> I'd also like to ask whether Struts works with velocity. Should I
> invest the time to learn to use struts?
>
> All your help will be greatly appreciated!
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Victor R.
>
> --
> victor m. rodriguez | ximis | telephone 915.832.0134 | fax 915.832.0135
> 6006 north mesa st. | suite 902 | coronado tower | el paso | tx | 79912
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by Tim Pizey <ti...@paneris.org>.
Hi,
I know I keep banging on about it, but has anyone here tried Melati?
I believe Melati to be very good, but I have never tried anything else.
I would really appreciate a critical appraisal of Melati, as I don't want to
tie myself to a dead horse forever :)
The situation is that I am the only current user/developer of Melati,
as far as I know, and without some limelight Melati won't grow.
Melati offers a lot of functionality, it would be great if someone were
to review it.
cheers
Tim P
http://www.melati.org/
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Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by Jeff Schnitzer <je...@infohazard.org>.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2002 at 10:40:25AM -0400, Jeff Duska wrote:
>
> Here is my 50,000 ft overview.
>
> All the frameworks use the same design. They create a front side
> controller. You read more about that here @
> http://martinfowler.com/isa/frontController.html. You can find a very
> simple example in Forums demo application.
I would agree, these frameworks are more similar than different.
> First of all, Struts is the king. This is because Struts is supported by
> Sun. Thus, there is a lot of documentation, books and tools for it. I
True. Unfortunately it's also overly complex, heavily biased towards
JSP, and fairly rigid in how it defines the model.
> would say that WebWork appears as mature and as feature rich as Struts.
> Maverick doesn't seems to have the same level of depth and breadth that
> Struts and WebWork. It is up to you if this is good thing or not. The
> advantage is that you'll get up to speed quicker with Maverick than
> Struts or WebWork. On the other hand, Struts and WebWork have additional
> features and tools that you will not have with Maverick. The main reason
That's an interesting perspective. I'm curious, what features?
The big piece "missing" from Maverick is a tag library - which is
deliberate. Not only is JSP simply one of many possible
templating languages, but the JSP Standard Tag Library (which
works great with Maverick) pretty much obsoletes most of the
Struts and WebWork tags. There are some other bizzare things
in Struts like a database connection pool, but I think it's pretty
safe to say this is a pretty silly thing to put into an MVC framework.
Since Maverick is a minimalist, modular framework, it's actually
possible to do some interesting things - including use Struts
Actions directly without modification. Given that, it's possible
to use any validation or form processing code written for Struts.
It's tempting to try to make an argument that Maverick offers close
to a 100% superset of the features of Struts - if only because you
can incorporate Struts pieces if you really needed it.
Maverick does offer several important features which neither
Struts nor WebWork come close to addressing:
. Transformation pipelines for each view
. Automatic internationalization and browser customization
> to choose Maverick, IMHO, is if you need the transformation features.
> This is a really neat feature no one else has. My big problem with all
> these platforms is that Velocity is a second class citizen. This isn't
> as much of a problem with Maverick, but with Struts and WebWork several
> features are accessible only via a Tag Libraries. There nothing stopping
> you from getting these working with Velocity, but it will mean you have
> more work. Or worst, you'll mix JSP code with Velocity. Yuck!!!
Since we're doing a compare/contrast of MVC frameworks, I should
point out a significant problem with WebWork - it has a very nonstandard
way of conveying the model into the view. The "ValueStack" is novel,
but very difficult to integrate with templating systems other than
the special JSP tags shipped with WebWork. The Velocity and XSLT
integration is far from mature.
By contrast, Maverick uses the same vanilla VelocityViewServlet that
Struts uses to integrate with Velocity.
> JPublish is interesting, because it supports only Velocity. The problem
> is that is clearly not in same league of the Struts or WebWork. It looks
> like Maverick is also step above JPublish.
As much as I love Velocity and try to use it as often as possible,
it is frequently not an option. Here at Maxis/Electronic Arts, it
simply is not an option to use something other than JSP. Even the
MVC approach was a tough sell. At least JSTL makes it livable.
But why tie a framework to a particular templating language? The
MVC logic should be the same anywhere.
Sometimes it makes sense to mix and match templating languages, too.
Not all code originates in-house. I have a Velocity project at home
into which I will be integrating Jive forums soon. I fully expect
to be using JSP skins simply because somebody else has already written
them. Maverick, being templating-language agnostic, will have no
trouble with it.
> Then there is Turbine. Turbine is the project or tool we should all want
> to be using. It is my understanding Velocity started life as the view
> technology for Turbine. My problem is that Turbine is mess. The project
> is all over the map. Unlike Struts or WebWork, the Turbine sub-projects
> have little to do with web development. It just looks like case of Not
> Invented Here! I could be wrong, but I spoke to many people they have
> same impression. The website is confusing and document is disappointing.
> It is really shame. There is some great technology, Torque and core
> Turbine, that is being overlooked, because it buried here.
Turbine seems to be really hard to get a mental grasp of.
Jeff Schnitzer
jeff@infohazard.org
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Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by Jeff Duska <Je...@noaa.gov>.
Anthony Eden wrote:
>Better through on the flame retardant suits, kiddies...
>
I'm afraid that I did a very poor job in my last e-mail. Anthony, I will
send you a personal reply. I do want to say that I like JPublish a lot.
I should say that my previous email did not convey that point at all.
Later,
Jeff
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RE: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by Anthony Eden <ae...@signaturedomains.com>.
Better through on the flame retardant suits, kiddies...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Duska [mailto:Jeff.Duska@noaa.gov]
> Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 10:40 AM
> To: Velocity Users List
> Subject: Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
>
>
>
> Here is my 50,000 ft overview.
>
> All the frameworks use the same design. They create a front side
> controller. You read more about that here @
> http://martinfowler.com/isa/frontController.html. You can find a very
> simple example in Forums demo application.
>
That's like saying "All compiled languages have the same design: you
have to write text and then compile it." Even though each framework
does tend to have a front controller, that is only one part of the
framework. More important are things like hooks for providing
application logic, form validation, i18n support, security, access to
services such as EJBs and Web Services, etc. It is the means in which
the framework supports these elements which differentiates each of the
frameworks.
<snip>
>
> JPublish is interesting, because it supports only Velocity.
> The problem
> is that is clearly not in same league of the Struts or
> WebWork. It looks
> like Maverick is also step above JPublish.
Really? What league would that be? And how is Maverick a "step above"
JPublish? Come on, you spend a whole paragraph on why Struts is King,
but then you don't even make an effort to explain your opinion on
JPublish? Have you actually tried JPublish?
FWIW, JPublish uses Velocity as its only template language because I
think Velocity is the best template engine currently available. It has
just the right balance between "to little" and "too much". Plus, the
support from the mailing list is phenomenal. I can't say enough good
things about Geir "The Machine". It is relatively trivial to abstract
out the template engine in a framework, but then you have to deal with
potential problems for each of the engines, and I have decided that at
this time it is just not worth it to me.
Sincerely,
Anthony Eden
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Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by Jeff Duska <Je...@noaa.gov>.
Here is my 50,000 ft overview.
All the frameworks use the same design. They create a front side
controller. You read more about that here @
http://martinfowler.com/isa/frontController.html. You can find a very
simple example in Forums demo application.
First of all, Struts is the king. This is because Struts is supported by
Sun. Thus, there is a lot of documentation, books and tools for it. I
would say that WebWork appears as mature and as feature rich as Struts.
Maverick doesn't seems to have the same level of depth and breadth that
Struts and WebWork. It is up to you if this is good thing or not. The
advantage is that you'll get up to speed quicker with Maverick than
Struts or WebWork. On the other hand, Struts and WebWork have additional
features and tools that you will not have with Maverick. The main reason
to choose Maverick, IMHO, is if you need the transformation features.
This is a really neat feature no one else has. My big problem with all
these platforms is that Velocity is a second class citizen. This isn't
as much of a problem with Maverick, but with Struts and WebWork several
features are accessible only via a Tag Libraries. There nothing stopping
you from getting these working with Velocity, but it will mean you have
more work. Or worst, you'll mix JSP code with Velocity. Yuck!!!
JPublish is interesting, because it supports only Velocity. The problem
is that is clearly not in same league of the Struts or WebWork. It looks
like Maverick is also step above JPublish.
Then there is Turbine. Turbine is the project or tool we should all want
to be using. It is my understanding Velocity started life as the view
technology for Turbine. My problem is that Turbine is mess. The project
is all over the map. Unlike Struts or WebWork, the Turbine sub-projects
have little to do with web development. It just looks like case of Not
Invented Here! I could be wrong, but I spoke to many people they have
same impression. The website is confusing and document is disappointing.
It is really shame. There is some great technology, Torque and core
Turbine, that is being overlooked, because it buried here.
HTH,
Jeff
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Re: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
Posted by "Anthony W. Marino" <an...@AWMObjects.com>.
Don't forget Maverick.
http://mav.sourceforge.net
Anthony
> Have you looked at Turbine, WebWork or JPublish?
> http://www.jpublish.org/
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/
> http://opensymphony.com/webwork/
>
> ~k
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Victor Rodriguez [mailto:victor@www.ximis.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 1:41 PM
> > To: velocity-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Subject: Is Maverick any good? should I use Struts?
> >
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I'm trying to get a MVC framework to go with Velocity. So
> > far I think I
> > like Maverick, but haven't really tested it. Has anyone have experience
> > with it?
> >
> > I'd also like to ask whether Struts works with velocity. Should I
> > invest the time to learn to use struts?
> >
> > All your help will be greatly appreciated!
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Victor R.
> >
> > --
> > victor m. rodriguez | ximis | telephone 915.832.0134 | fax 915.832.0135
> > 6006 north mesa st. | suite 902 | coronado tower | el paso | tx | 79912
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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