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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Rob Weir <ra...@gmail.com> on 2012/12/13 03:55:12 UTC
Admin mailing list?
If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
website development topics?
-Rob
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by janI <ja...@apache.org>.
I would favour a combined list for web site items (wiki, cwiki,
openoffice.org etc) as was as the wiki account requests.
Web issues are in my opinion a special case of dev/l10n, so lets make it on
a separate list.
Jan.
On 13 December 2012 09:49, Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/13/12 7:06 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >
> >> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
> >> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
> >> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
> >> website development topics?
> >
> > sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think that
> the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics already
> overlap into marketing and L10n.
> >
>
> I agree to Dave, a list for sysadmin requests make sense but the more
> general discussions about the website development should take place on
> other lists, preferred the dev list. l10n comes in the game when the
> content is finished and marketing can help to define the content. And
> the technical aspects should be discussed on the dev list.
>
> Juergen
>
>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@gmail.com>.
On 12/13/12 7:06 AM, Dave Fisher wrote:
>
> On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
>> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
>> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
>> website development topics?
>
> sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think that the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics already overlap into marketing and L10n.
>
I agree to Dave, a list for sysadmin requests make sense but the more
general discussions about the website development should take place on
other lists, preferred the dev list. l10n comes in the game when the
content is finished and marketing can help to define the content. And
the technical aspects should be discussed on the dev list.
Juergen
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 13/12/2012 Kay Schenk wrote:
> A separate list JUST for, hopefully, the temporary manual creation of
> the wiki accounts *might* be in order. Right now, they don't seem
> overwhelming to me.
I agree with Kay here, and since this is a possibly temporary situation
we'd better revisit it when Jan (thanks!) is done with the upgrade and
we know what options are available.
> I would NOT use a new wiki-admin list now or in the future for
> general web development issues. The process we have now seems good
> and doesn't give rise to cross communication issues. Plus, as some of
> the infra folks keep track of THIS list for general web related
> issues, I would not recommend another list.
Yes, and there's also the infrastructure@a.o mailing list, and many
infrastructure topics are relevant to Apache infrastructure and
dev@openoffice.a.o too, so there's some risk of confusion and
duplication. I wouldn't see a clear benefit from a new list.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 9:42 AM, janI <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 13 December 2012 18:34, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM, TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>> > On 12/13/2012 09:14, janI wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I give +1 for the list and the WIKI account part, then we can see over
>> >> time, if web discussions naturally move to that list.
>> >>
>> >> Jan.
A separate list JUST for, hopefully, the temporary manual creation of
the wiki accounts *might* be in order. Right now, they don't seem
overwhelming to me. But having them on a separate list would channel
them better.
I would NOT use a new wiki-admin list now or in the future for
general web development issues. The process we have now seems good
and doesn't give rise to cross communication issues. Plus, as some of
the infra folks keep track of THIS list for general web related
issues, I would not recommend another list.
Just my .02
>> >>
>> > "By request" account creation on the wiki is a fine short-term solution
>> for
>> > the spammer problem (until the upgrade). In the long run (after the
>> > upgrade), IMHO it is unnecessary and unacceptable. AOO doesn't need this
>> > anywhere else, Wp doesn't need it, and our wiki shouldn't, either.
>> Running
>> > on an up-to-date platform, we should be able to find some technology
>> which
>> > suits our users' needs, and keeps the spam down (not completely, but
>> nothing
>> > will).
>>
> The upgrade alone does not change the spam possibility, but it is correct
> there are several techniques out there that can effectively help us.
>
>
>> >
>> > A little forensic research on those thousands of spam accounts might
>> show us
>> > what we do need. What kind of email addresses did they use? We used to
>> have
>> > some local code to prohibit the "public drop box" email sites, as well
>> as a
>> > RECAPCHA for account creation and for external-link saves. Did any of
>> that
>> > make it through the move to Apache? Checking links might be expensive,
>> since
>> > it would have to be done on every save, but account-creation checks
>> should
>> > only be invoked on account creation.
>>
> We still have code in there to stop "public drop box) email sites. The
> RECAPCHA is NOT in there anymore, but that would be a NICE feature (do you
> happen to know which extension was used?).
> The editor actually checks for external links, and if your page contains a
> link, you are requested to answer a simple math. question.
>
> It is important to notice that about 80% of the spam account, did not try
> to make a page...they simply tried to fill our account log, to make the
> site go down (a variation of "service denial" attach").
>
>
>> >
>> > If the account requests go away, so does the admin ML. Probably a good
>> > thing.
>>
> I do not quite see it so, I for one believe it would be good to have a
> place where we solely discuss web issues since it goes across all other
> mailing lists.
>
>>
>>
>> We don't need a long-term solution to a short-term problem. But if
>> this is going to continue indefinitely, it might be worth having the
>> admin address.
>>
> I am sorry, but spam is a very long time problem and it getting worse.
> There are simply too many out there, why get merit by shutting down a site.
>
>
>> Remember, each request is impinging on volunteer's attention in four ways:
>>
>> 1) Since requestors are not subscribed, their requests end up in list
>> moderator's inbox and need to be approved
>>
>> 2) Request is then becomes noise on the dev list
>>
>> 3) Admin then needs to act on the request
>>
>> 4) Admin confirms request, which is more noise on the list
>>
>> Since we're soon going to start up the doc effort, with a call for
>> volunteers there, and there is some talk of using the wiki for future
>> documentation, I'm expecting the wiki account request rate to get
>> higher.
>>
>> Maybe there are other/better ways of handing this? Requests via
>> Bugzilla? Of course, if this is a short-term problem...
>>
> I will find a solution, given a bit of time, and less discussions in here.
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > /tj/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted."
-- Aesop
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by janI <ja...@apache.org>.
On 13 December 2012 18:34, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM, TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > On 12/13/2012 09:14, janI wrote:
> >>
> >> I give +1 for the list and the WIKI account part, then we can see over
> >> time, if web discussions naturally move to that list.
> >>
> >> Jan.
> >>
> > "By request" account creation on the wiki is a fine short-term solution
> for
> > the spammer problem (until the upgrade). In the long run (after the
> > upgrade), IMHO it is unnecessary and unacceptable. AOO doesn't need this
> > anywhere else, Wp doesn't need it, and our wiki shouldn't, either.
> Running
> > on an up-to-date platform, we should be able to find some technology
> which
> > suits our users' needs, and keeps the spam down (not completely, but
> nothing
> > will).
>
The upgrade alone does not change the spam possibility, but it is correct
there are several techniques out there that can effectively help us.
> >
> > A little forensic research on those thousands of spam accounts might
> show us
> > what we do need. What kind of email addresses did they use? We used to
> have
> > some local code to prohibit the "public drop box" email sites, as well
> as a
> > RECAPCHA for account creation and for external-link saves. Did any of
> that
> > make it through the move to Apache? Checking links might be expensive,
> since
> > it would have to be done on every save, but account-creation checks
> should
> > only be invoked on account creation.
>
We still have code in there to stop "public drop box) email sites. The
RECAPCHA is NOT in there anymore, but that would be a NICE feature (do you
happen to know which extension was used?).
The editor actually checks for external links, and if your page contains a
link, you are requested to answer a simple math. question.
It is important to notice that about 80% of the spam account, did not try
to make a page...they simply tried to fill our account log, to make the
site go down (a variation of "service denial" attach").
> >
> > If the account requests go away, so does the admin ML. Probably a good
> > thing.
>
I do not quite see it so, I for one believe it would be good to have a
place where we solely discuss web issues since it goes across all other
mailing lists.
>
>
> We don't need a long-term solution to a short-term problem. But if
> this is going to continue indefinitely, it might be worth having the
> admin address.
>
I am sorry, but spam is a very long time problem and it getting worse.
There are simply too many out there, why get merit by shutting down a site.
> Remember, each request is impinging on volunteer's attention in four ways:
>
> 1) Since requestors are not subscribed, their requests end up in list
> moderator's inbox and need to be approved
>
> 2) Request is then becomes noise on the dev list
>
> 3) Admin then needs to act on the request
>
> 4) Admin confirms request, which is more noise on the list
>
> Since we're soon going to start up the doc effort, with a call for
> volunteers there, and there is some talk of using the wiki for future
> documentation, I'm expecting the wiki account request rate to get
> higher.
>
> Maybe there are other/better ways of handing this? Requests via
> Bugzilla? Of course, if this is a short-term problem...
>
I will find a solution, given a bit of time, and less discussions in here.
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
> > /tj/
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 12:15 PM, TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> On 12/13/2012 09:14, janI wrote:
>>
>> I give +1 for the list and the WIKI account part, then we can see over
>> time, if web discussions naturally move to that list.
>>
>> Jan.
>>
> "By request" account creation on the wiki is a fine short-term solution for
> the spammer problem (until the upgrade). In the long run (after the
> upgrade), IMHO it is unnecessary and unacceptable. AOO doesn't need this
> anywhere else, Wp doesn't need it, and our wiki shouldn't, either. Running
> on an up-to-date platform, we should be able to find some technology which
> suits our users' needs, and keeps the spam down (not completely, but nothing
> will).
>
> A little forensic research on those thousands of spam accounts might show us
> what we do need. What kind of email addresses did they use? We used to have
> some local code to prohibit the "public drop box" email sites, as well as a
> RECAPCHA for account creation and for external-link saves. Did any of that
> make it through the move to Apache? Checking links might be expensive, since
> it would have to be done on every save, but account-creation checks should
> only be invoked on account creation.
>
> If the account requests go away, so does the admin ML. Probably a good
> thing.
>
We don't need a long-term solution to a short-term problem. But if
this is going to continue indefinitely, it might be worth having the
admin address.
Remember, each request is impinging on volunteer's attention in four ways:
1) Since requestors are not subscribed, their requests end up in list
moderator's inbox and need to be approved
2) Request is then becomes noise on the dev list
3) Admin then needs to act on the request
4) Admin confirms request, which is more noise on the list
Since we're soon going to start up the doc effort, with a call for
volunteers there, and there is some talk of using the wiki for future
documentation, I'm expecting the wiki account request rate to get
higher.
Maybe there are other/better ways of handing this? Requests via
Bugzilla? Of course, if this is a short-term problem...
-Rob
> /tj/
>
>
>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by TJ Frazier <tj...@cfl.rr.com>.
On 12/13/2012 09:14, janI wrote:
> I give +1 for the list and the WIKI account part, then we can see over
> time, if web discussions naturally move to that list.
>
> Jan.
>
"By request" account creation on the wiki is a fine short-term solution
for the spammer problem (until the upgrade). In the long run (after the
upgrade), IMHO it is unnecessary and unacceptable. AOO doesn't need this
anywhere else, Wp doesn't need it, and our wiki shouldn't, either.
Running on an up-to-date platform, we should be able to find some
technology which suits our users' needs, and keeps the spam down (not
completely, but nothing will).
A little forensic research on those thousands of spam accounts might
show us what we do need. What kind of email addresses did they use? We
used to have some local code to prohibit the "public drop box" email
sites, as well as a RECAPCHA for account creation and for external-link
saves. Did any of that make it through the move to Apache? Checking
links might be expensive, since it would have to be done on every save,
but account-creation checks should only be invoked on account creation.
If the account requests go away, so does the admin ML. Probably a good
thing.
/tj/
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by janI <ja...@apache.org>.
I give +1 for the list and the WIKI account part, then we can see over
time, if web discussions naturally move to that list.
Jan.
On 13 December 2012 15:09, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> We can also move forward where we agre
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 13, 2012, at 4:58 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >>> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
> >>> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
> >>> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
> >>> website development topics?
> >>
> >> sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think
> that the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics
> already overlap into marketing and L10n.
> >>
> >
> > I could argue it either way. For example, one reason the discussions
> > are spread out over marketing and L10n is because currently there is
> > no clear "center" to website discussions. A new list could become
> > that center. And a volunteer on the marketing list or L10n list is
> > more likely to subscribe to a dedicated website list than to join the
> > dev list, purely due to traffic.
> >
> > But you could also argue that although the website has its own
> > technical discussions at the admin/sysop level, the design and content
> > is a larger project-wide discussion, often touching on marketing and
> > L10n as well.
> >
> > One way of looking at it might be: Suppose we wanted in 2013 to do a
> > real clean up of the website, updating the stagnant NL pages, making a
> > more modern look, applying any new branding, pruning or updating
> > outdated content, etc. Suppose to do this we had a call for website
> > volunteers and needed to get them up to speed on the CMS and related
> > topics. How would we do this?
> >
> > In practice I think the challenge would be getting new volunteers to
> > survive the dev list traffic. Getting volunteers with project-wide
> > interests to subscribe to "yet another list" is relatively easy.
> >
> > Of course, we don't need to decide the larger question now. It would
> > be enough to have an admin list for admin requests across web, wiki,
> > bugzilla, blog, forums, etc.
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>>
> >>> -Rob
> >>
>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
We can also move forward where we agre
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 13, 2012, at 4:58 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>>> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
>>> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
>>> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
>>> website development topics?
>>
>> sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think that the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics already overlap into marketing and L10n.
>>
>
> I could argue it either way. For example, one reason the discussions
> are spread out over marketing and L10n is because currently there is
> no clear "center" to website discussions. A new list could become
> that center. And a volunteer on the marketing list or L10n list is
> more likely to subscribe to a dedicated website list than to join the
> dev list, purely due to traffic.
>
> But you could also argue that although the website has its own
> technical discussions at the admin/sysop level, the design and content
> is a larger project-wide discussion, often touching on marketing and
> L10n as well.
>
> One way of looking at it might be: Suppose we wanted in 2013 to do a
> real clean up of the website, updating the stagnant NL pages, making a
> more modern look, applying any new branding, pruning or updating
> outdated content, etc. Suppose to do this we had a call for website
> volunteers and needed to get them up to speed on the CMS and related
> topics. How would we do this?
>
> In practice I think the challenge would be getting new volunteers to
> survive the dev list traffic. Getting volunteers with project-wide
> interests to subscribe to "yet another list" is relatively easy.
>
> Of course, we don't need to decide the larger question now. It would
> be enough to have an admin list for admin requests across web, wiki,
> bugzilla, blog, forums, etc.
>
> -Rob
>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 1:06 AM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
>> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
>> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
>> website development topics?
>
> sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think that the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics already overlap into marketing and L10n.
>
I could argue it either way. For example, one reason the discussions
are spread out over marketing and L10n is because currently there is
no clear "center" to website discussions. A new list could become
that center. And a volunteer on the marketing list or L10n list is
more likely to subscribe to a dedicated website list than to join the
dev list, purely due to traffic.
But you could also argue that although the website has its own
technical discussions at the admin/sysop level, the design and content
is a larger project-wide discussion, often touching on marketing and
L10n as well.
One way of looking at it might be: Suppose we wanted in 2013 to do a
real clean up of the website, updating the stagnant NL pages, making a
more modern look, applying any new branding, pruning or updating
outdated content, etc. Suppose to do this we had a call for website
volunteers and needed to get them up to speed on the CMS and related
topics. How would we do this?
In practice I think the challenge would be getting new volunteers to
survive the dev list traffic. Getting volunteers with project-wide
interests to subscribe to "yet another list" is relatively easy.
Of course, we don't need to decide the larger question now. It would
be enough to have an admin list for admin requests across web, wiki,
bugzilla, blog, forums, etc.
-Rob
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>>
>> -Rob
>
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
> website development topics?
sysadmin requests to a special ML may make sense, but I don't think that the website development topics belong in that ML. website topics already overlap into marketing and L10n.
Regards,
Dave
>
> -Rob
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Andrew Douglas Pitonyak <an...@pitonyak.org>.
On 12/12/2012 09:55 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
> website development topics?
>
> -Rob
>
Regardless of how it is done, be sure to update the WIKI to indicate
where to send the email, and then auto-subscribe the admins, or be sure
to post here that they must subscribe.
--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
Re: Admin mailing list?
Posted by Albino Biasutti Neto <bi...@apache.org>.
Hi
2012/12/13 Rob Weir <ra...@gmail.com>:
> If we're going to have all of these wiki account requests via email,
> would it makes sense to create a special admin list (or webmaster
> list) for these and similar requests, and maybe also for general
> website development topics?
+1
Your suggestion is good. Issues related to webmaster, sysop, wiki
(application account), should be separated.
What would be webmaster, sysop > Any error on the page, spelling,
carectere etc. Bugs found in the page can be directed to bugzilla
believe.
My 0.002 cents.
Albino