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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com> on 2005/12/21 10:50:28 UTC
Is the incubator out of control?
On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Martin Cooper wrote:
> Personally, I am less than happy at seeing yet another large project
> proposed from a corporate source (and IBM at that), along with a
> dozen new
> committers who have not earned their merit at the ASF as most
> committers
> have. I feel the ASF is losing its way, and becoming a repository for
> corporate open-sourcing along with taking on responsibility for
> building
> communities around corporate code bases. I suspect I'm in the
> minority at
> the ASF, and I'm undoubtedly in the minority here in the incubator.
> But
> there doesn't seem to be a way for the incubator to say "no
> thanks", other
> than by a podling failing the incubation process, and that seems
> wrong to
> me.
The merits of the particular proposal aside, I wanted to comment on
this paragraph. This year at ApacheCon I was surprised to find that
a number of people also feel that the ASF is growing far too
quickly. I know that are some people who believe that the growth
that we are experiencing is indicative of our success.
Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the
incubation process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to the
Apache brand name, and this is a bad thing. Corporations see the
value of the brand name, that's why they want to come here and are
willing to put up with all our overhead.
----
Ted Leung Blog: <http://www.sauria.com/blog>
PGP Fingerprint: 1003 7870 251F FA71 A59A CEE3 BEBA 2B87 F5FC 4B42
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Mads Toftum <ma...@toftum.dk>.
On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 03:53:31PM -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> +1 to 3 ASF Members/Officers as mentors
> +1 to require Incubator PMC vote for *ALL* incoming projects
> +1 to require Incubator PMC vote even on simpler IP imports
>
yeah, sounds good to me. More mentors / oversight is likely to help
quite a bit.
vh
Mads Toftum
--
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
+1 to 3 ASF Members/Officers as mentors
+1 to require Incubator PMC vote for *ALL* incoming projects
+1 to require Incubator PMC vote even on simpler IP imports
thanks,
dims
On 12/28/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
> > The Incubator PMC only needs to care about IP and legal blahblah,
> > thus the receiving PMCs are tasked with community and brand abuse
> > stuff.
>
> Not true. If there is community development, the Incubator PMC had better
> be involved. We're going to have to adjust things, such as Mentorship and
> votes to leave the Incubator, e.g.,
>
> - a minimum of 3 ASF Members and/or Officers who have differing
> corporate affiliations as Mentors per project. The sponsoring
> PMC must identify those ASF Members. Projects who lose one or
> more sponsors -- even if they just go quiet -- must make sure
> that they regain the minimum of 3. Existing projects that are
> not meeting the quorum will not be permitted to release any
> code, regardless of otherwise meeting Incubator release guidelines.
>
> - the Board will determine if there is an Incubator PMC vote to
> accept a new project, but at the moment, any PMC can vote to
> bring a new project into the Incubator, assuming that they
> otherwise meet the guidelines. There are still guidelines
> regarding candidacy, and the Board will be encouraged to
> take a dim view of any PMC trying to game the system.
>
> - the Incubator PMC having the sole vote on all graduations from
> the Incubator. The target PMC votes to accept first, and then
> notifies us that they are ready for our vote.
>
> It is a talking point, but we may have to perform that vote even on simpler
> IP imports, just to prevent gaming the system, e.g., "well, it's not really
> a new project". Actually, all of those are talking points.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Yes, I agree with Justin. More eyes the better. Especially ones with
"outsider" perspective will help.
-- dims
On 12/30/05, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 10:21:59AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> > Agreed, but the Tuscany proposal was an independent proposal, not
> > sponsored (at the time) by any PMC.
>
> Dims mentioned that they had planned to approve that proposal through the
> WS PMC - so if it had been sponsored by them, there would have been no
> change permitted by the Incubator PMC to address concerns like Roy's.
>
> > >The Incubator PMC
> > >should also be able to make a judgment ("certification"?) of the
> > >process proposed by the PMC - such as whether a code base should be
> > >under full incubation or just use the IP clearance form.
> > >
> > >I think that making it clear that the Incubator PMC can do this would
> > >go a long way to addressing some of the concerns already mentioned.
> >
> > Agreed - although in general, if a PMC just ignored the input of the
> > Incubator PMC on a PMCs suggested incubation, it's an indication of a
> > problem anyway...
>
> As Greg said, that's for the board to deal with. -- justin
>
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--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, Dec 30, 2005 at 10:21:59AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
> Agreed, but the Tuscany proposal was an independent proposal, not
> sponsored (at the time) by any PMC.
Dims mentioned that they had planned to approve that proposal through the
WS PMC - so if it had been sponsored by them, there would have been no
change permitted by the Incubator PMC to address concerns like Roy's.
> >The Incubator PMC
> >should also be able to make a judgment ("certification"?) of the
> >process proposed by the PMC - such as whether a code base should be
> >under full incubation or just use the IP clearance form.
> >
> >I think that making it clear that the Incubator PMC can do this would
> >go a long way to addressing some of the concerns already mentioned.
>
> Agreed - although in general, if a PMC just ignored the input of the
> Incubator PMC on a PMCs suggested incubation, it's an indication of a
> problem anyway...
As Greg said, that's for the board to deal with. -- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@pobox.com>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On 12/29/05, Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
>
>>If another PMC decides a project should be incubated, they must
>>provide the people to make that happen (so we achieve proper scaling
>>and to put the effort on those who want the results). The Incubator
>>can't refuse the project outright, but if the STATUS page or
>>proposal/charter or whatever doesn't meet the guidelines, then the
>>Incubator can certainly require that it be amended. But you should not
>>simply be able to kill it outright.
>
>
> +1. I think that's an important distinction to make.
>
> Proposals should require the "advice and consent" of the Incubator
> PMC. I agree that while the Incubator PMC shouldn't be able to kill
> the project, they can and should be able to say "Your charter sucks.
> Rewrite it. We won't sign off until that happens."
>
> It's about the form than the content. Roy's comments about Tuscany
> proposal are what I'd characterize in this mold.
Agreed, but the Tuscany proposal was an independent proposal, not
sponsored (at the time) by any PMC.
> The Incubator PMC
> should also be able to make a judgment ("certification"?) of the
> process proposed by the PMC - such as whether a code base should be
> under full incubation or just use the IP clearance form.
>
> I think that making it clear that the Incubator PMC can do this would
> go a long way to addressing some of the concerns already mentioned.
Agreed - although in general, if a PMC just ignored the input of the
Incubator PMC on a PMCs suggested incubation, it's an indication of a
problem anyway...
geir
> -- justin
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On 12/29/05, Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org> wrote:
> If another PMC decides a project should be incubated, they must
> provide the people to make that happen (so we achieve proper scaling
> and to put the effort on those who want the results). The Incubator
> can't refuse the project outright, but if the STATUS page or
> proposal/charter or whatever doesn't meet the guidelines, then the
> Incubator can certainly require that it be amended. But you should not
> simply be able to kill it outright.
+1. I think that's an important distinction to make.
Proposals should require the "advice and consent" of the Incubator
PMC. I agree that while the Incubator PMC shouldn't be able to kill
the project, they can and should be able to say "Your charter sucks.
Rewrite it. We won't sign off until that happens."
It's about the form than the content. Roy's comments about Tuscany
proposal are what I'd characterize in this mold. The Incubator PMC
should also be able to make a judgment ("certification"?) of the
process proposed by the PMC - such as whether a code base should be
under full incubation or just use the IP clearance form.
I think that making it clear that the Incubator PMC can do this would
go a long way to addressing some of the concerns already mentioned.
-- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 03:16:42PM -0500, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>...
> - the Board will determine if there is an Incubator PMC vote to
> accept a new project, but at the moment, any PMC can vote to
> bring a new project into the Incubator, assuming that they
> otherwise meet the guidelines.
Yup. And that's the way that I think it should be. The Incubator is
not "close enough" to the problem to make a determination *against*
another PMCs rightful decision that a project would be beneficial for
the ASF. Recognize that other PMCs are *also* operating within the
best interests of the Foundation. That should be a given, and if you
think a PMC is *not* operating that way, then you bring it to the
Board. You don't exercise your displeasure by interfering with the
work that they are trying to accomplish [to benefit the Foundation].
If another PMC decides a project should be incubated, they must
provide the people to make that happen (so we achieve proper scaling
and to put the effort on those who want the results). The Incubator
can't refuse the project outright, but if the STATUS page or
proposal/charter or whatever doesn't meet the guidelines, then the
Incubator can certainly require that it be amended. But you should not
simply be able to kill it outright. Go to the Board for that because
the implication is that the PMC is not acting in the Foundation's best
interests, and THAT is for the Board to handle. Not the Incubator.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> The Incubator PMC only needs to care about IP and legal blahblah,
> thus the receiving PMCs are tasked with community and brand abuse
> stuff.
Not true. If there is community development, the Incubator PMC had better
be involved. We're going to have to adjust things, such as Mentorship and
votes to leave the Incubator, e.g.,
- a minimum of 3 ASF Members and/or Officers who have differing
corporate affiliations as Mentors per project. The sponsoring
PMC must identify those ASF Members. Projects who lose one or
more sponsors -- even if they just go quiet -- must make sure
that they regain the minimum of 3. Existing projects that are
not meeting the quorum will not be permitted to release any
code, regardless of otherwise meeting Incubator release guidelines.
- the Board will determine if there is an Incubator PMC vote to
accept a new project, but at the moment, any PMC can vote to
bring a new project into the Incubator, assuming that they
otherwise meet the guidelines. There are still guidelines
regarding candidacy, and the Board will be encouraged to
take a dim view of any PMC trying to game the system.
- the Incubator PMC having the sole vote on all graduations from
the Incubator. The target PMC votes to accept first, and then
notifies us that they are ready for our vote.
It is a talking point, but we may have to perform that vote even on simpler
IP imports, just to prevent gaming the system, e.g., "well, it's not really
a new project". Actually, all of those are talking points.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 21 Dec 2005, at 10:50, Ted Leung wrote:
> Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the incubation
> process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to the Apache
> brand name, and this is a bad thing. Corporations see the value of
> the brand name, that's why they want to come here and are willing to
> put up with all our overhead.
I agree but i believe we're picking the wrong example. For me, the low
bar is because many code donations are happening in the folds of
other-than-the-Incubator PMC: The Incubator PMC only needs to care
about IP and legal blahblah, thus the receiving PMCs are tasked with
community and brand abuse stuff. Combine this with mentors preferring
to read and use the system as it has been designed and drafted
literally, rather than according to what the (somewhat intangible)
Apache Way dictates, and this is bound to create tension.
Quite frankly, I don't have the slightest idea anymore what is
happening in the WebServices and Geronimo corner of Apache. That's
either an indication of the fact that I should read more mail (yeah
right), or something slightly more worrying. Too much, too fast, too
eager, too soon. That way, we'll burn out rather than fade away. :)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought Open Source Java & XML
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
In theory, the sponsor and mentors are doing that continuously.
geir
On Dec 21, 2005, at 10:51 AM, Rob Davies wrote:
>
> I Also share these concerns - is there currently a process to have
> continuous reviews throughout the entire life-cycle of all new and
> existing projects - to ensure that everything under the 'apache'
> brand is and will continue to be 'worthy' ?
>
> Sorry if there's already a process in place - I'm new :)
>
> cheers,
>
> Rob
>
>
> On 21 Dec 2005, at 15:18, Mads Toftum wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:50:28AM -0800, Ted Leung wrote:
>>> The merits of the particular proposal aside, I wanted to comment on
>>> this paragraph. This year at ApacheCon I was surprised to find
>>> that
>>> a number of people also feel that the ASF is growing far too
>>> quickly. I know that are some people who believe that the growth
>>> that we are experiencing is indicative of our success.
>>> Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the
>>> incubation process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to
>>> the
>>> Apache brand name, and this is a bad thing.
>>
>> Very much agreed - I've been worried about the same for quite a
>> while.
>>
>> vh
>>
>> Mads Toftum
>> --
>> `Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
>>
>>
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>
>
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--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Rob Davies <ra...@gmail.com>.
I Also share these concerns - is there currently a process to have
continuous reviews throughout the entire life-cycle of all new and
existing projects - to ensure that everything under the 'apache'
brand is and will continue to be 'worthy' ?
Sorry if there's already a process in place - I'm new :)
cheers,
Rob
On 21 Dec 2005, at 15:18, Mads Toftum wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:50:28AM -0800, Ted Leung wrote:
>> The merits of the particular proposal aside, I wanted to comment on
>> this paragraph. This year at ApacheCon I was surprised to find that
>> a number of people also feel that the ASF is growing far too
>> quickly. I know that are some people who believe that the growth
>> that we are experiencing is indicative of our success.
>> Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the
>> incubation process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to the
>> Apache brand name, and this is a bad thing.
>
> Very much agreed - I've been worried about the same for quite a while.
>
> vh
>
> Mads Toftum
> --
> `Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
>
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Mads Toftum <ma...@toftum.dk>.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:50:28AM -0800, Ted Leung wrote:
> The merits of the particular proposal aside, I wanted to comment on
> this paragraph. This year at ApacheCon I was surprised to find that
> a number of people also feel that the ASF is growing far too
> quickly. I know that are some people who believe that the growth
> that we are experiencing is indicative of our success.
> Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the
> incubation process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to the
> Apache brand name, and this is a bad thing.
Very much agreed - I've been worried about the same for quite a while.
vh
Mads Toftum
--
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Martin Cooper wrote:
>
> Corporations see the value of the brand name, that's why
> they want to come here and are willing to put up with all our overhead.
I can't speak for all corporations, but I can speak to the proposals
that I have dealt with at my corporation.
IBM is fully aware that places like DeveloperWorks and SourceForge
exist. The prevalent view is that such places tend to end up being
fishbowls whereby developers can work and be observed. By contrast, the
ASF is viewed as a place to build a diverse and sustainable community.
This discussion, the attendant angst and so called "overhead", are
recognized as part of the package, i.e., necessary to establish the
desired diversity and community involvement.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 4:50 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2005, at 4:49 PM, Martin Cooper wrote:
>
>> Personally, I am less than happy at seeing yet another large project
>> proposed from a corporate source (and IBM at that), along with a
>> dozen new
>> committers who have not earned their merit at the ASF as most
>> committers
>> have. I feel the ASF is losing its way, and becoming a repository for
>> corporate open-sourcing along with taking on responsibility for
>> building
>> communities around corporate code bases. I suspect I'm in the
>> minority at
>> the ASF, and I'm undoubtedly in the minority here in the
>> incubator. But
>> there doesn't seem to be a way for the incubator to say "no
>> thanks", other
>> than by a podling failing the incubation process, and that seems
>> wrong to
>> me.
>
> The merits of the particular proposal aside, I wanted to comment
> on this paragraph. This year at ApacheCon I was surprised to find
> that a number of people also feel that the ASF is growing far too
> quickly. I know that are some people who believe that the growth
> that we are experiencing is indicative of our success.
> Unfortunately, I don't agree with that. I think that the
> incubation process is setting an incredibly low bar for access to
> the Apache brand name, and this is a bad thing. Corporations see
> the value of the brand name, that's why they want to come here and
> are willing to put up with all our overhead.
>
Unless we are very careful, Incubator will become a much
larger mess than the Jakarta project ever was... Which
would be quite ironic.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 11:26:38AM -0500, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Hmmm...But the deal is if the PMC wants a change to its charter it
> needs to VOTE on it and formally adopt it. right? AND if the PMC does
> not have one then it needs to adhere to the board resolution. right?
>
> You know where i am going with this, if you read between the lines...
I'd have no problem saying that any podling seeking TLP status from the
Board must have a charter and project bylaws written up before graduation.
We've learned our lesson in that projects without these go iffy. -- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Hmmm...But the deal is if the PMC wants a change to its charter it
> needs to VOTE on it and formally adopt it. right? AND if the PMC does
> not have one then it needs to adhere to the board resolution. right?
>
> You know where i am going with this, if you read between the lines...
There's lots of places to go with this :) I guess we need to clarify
if we are talking about the charter as from the baord "Thou shalt do
webservices" which I do think is up to the board to change (in
conjunction with the PMC) or the project bylaws/guidlines setup
entirely by the PMC "We shalt to webservices in this manner...."
I believe that many projects do not conform precisely to their
project charter but still work in healthy and collaborative ways...
geir
>
> -- dims
>
> On 12/23/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Every TLP has an explicit charter when created by the board in the
>> resolution that creates them. How they interpret that and change
>> with the shifting sands of technology style is up to them....
>>
>> geir
>>
>> On Dec 23, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds good to me (hopefully all our TLP's will have charters
>>> soon!!).
>>>
>>> -- dims
>>>
>>> On 12/23/05, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>>>> Sam,
>>>>>
>>>>> it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
>>>>> question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure
>>>>> that
>>>>> the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
>>>>> better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders
>>>>> ("WS
>>>>> PMC") may be biased.
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to watch to make
>>>> sure
>>>> that existing projects stay to their charters - that's the job of
>>>> the board.
>>>>
>>>>> Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents
>>>>> (by
>>>>> internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
>>>>> folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
>>>>> from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
>>>>> already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
>>>>> about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant
>>>>> input).
>>>>
>>>> Again, I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to enforce
>>>> scope.
>>>> Furthermore, acceptance by the incubator is the start of a
>>>> process,
>>>> not the end of it. There should be adequate opportunity for
>>>> people to
>>>> provide input during the course of incubation.
>>>>
>>>> - Sam Ruby
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>> --
>> Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
>> geirm@apache.org
>>
>>
>>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Hmmm...But the deal is if the PMC wants a change to its charter it
needs to VOTE on it and formally adopt it. right? AND if the PMC does
not have one then it needs to adhere to the board resolution. right?
You know where i am going with this, if you read between the lines...
-- dims
On 12/23/05, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@apache.org> wrote:
> Every TLP has an explicit charter when created by the board in the
> resolution that creates them. How they interpret that and change
> with the shifting sands of technology style is up to them....
>
> geir
>
> On Dec 23, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>
> > Sounds good to me (hopefully all our TLP's will have charters soon!!).
> >
> > -- dims
> >
> > On 12/23/05, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> >>> Sam,
> >>>
> >>> it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
> >>> question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure
> >>> that
> >>> the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
> >>> better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders
> >>> ("WS
> >>> PMC") may be biased.
> >>
> >> I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to watch to make sure
> >> that existing projects stay to their charters - that's the job of
> >> the board.
> >>
> >>> Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents
> >>> (by
> >>> internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
> >>> folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
> >>> from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
> >>> already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
> >>> about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant input).
> >>
> >> Again, I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to enforce
> >> scope.
> >> Furthermore, acceptance by the incubator is the start of a process,
> >> not the end of it. There should be adequate opportunity for
> >> people to
> >> provide input during the course of incubation.
> >>
> >> - Sam Ruby
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> > --
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> >
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
Every TLP has an explicit charter when created by the board in the
resolution that creates them. How they interpret that and change
with the shifting sands of technology style is up to them....
geir
On Dec 23, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Sounds good to me (hopefully all our TLP's will have charters soon!!).
>
> -- dims
>
> On 12/23/05, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
>>> Sam,
>>>
>>> it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
>>> question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure
>>> that
>>> the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
>>> better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders
>>> ("WS
>>> PMC") may be biased.
>>
>> I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to watch to make sure
>> that existing projects stay to their charters - that's the job of
>> the board.
>>
>>> Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents
>>> (by
>>> internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
>>> folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
>>> from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
>>> already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
>>> about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant input).
>>
>> Again, I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to enforce
>> scope.
>> Furthermore, acceptance by the incubator is the start of a process,
>> not the end of it. There should be adequate opportunity for
>> people to
>> provide input during the course of incubation.
>>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Sounds good to me (hopefully all our TLP's will have charters soon!!).
-- dims
On 12/23/05, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> wrote:
> Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Sam,
> >
> > it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
> > question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure that
> > the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
> > better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders ("WS
> > PMC") may be biased.
>
> I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to watch to make sure
> that existing projects stay to their charters - that's the job of the board.
>
> > Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents (by
> > internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
> > folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
> > from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
> > already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
> > about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant input).
>
> Again, I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to enforce scope.
> Furthermore, acceptance by the incubator is the start of a process,
> not the end of it. There should be adequate opportunity for people to
> provide input during the course of incubation.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Sam,
>
> it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
> question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure that
> the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
> better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders ("WS
> PMC") may be biased.
I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to watch to make sure
that existing projects stay to their charters - that's the job of the board.
> Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents (by
> internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
> folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
> from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
> already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
> about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant input).
Again, I don't believe that it is the incubator's job to enforce scope.
Furthermore, acceptance by the incubator is the start of a process,
not the end of it. There should be adequate opportunity for people to
provide input during the course of incubation.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Sam,
it's not just a question of content and significance. It's also a
question of fitting with existing projects and check to make sure that
the project still adheres to the the charter of the PMC. These are
better checked by outsiders ("Incubator PMC"), since the insiders ("WS
PMC") may be biased.
Another thing i can think of is, for example, when HTTPComponents (by
internal people) was being set up there was resistance from tomcat
folks. But the scope got resolved by active participation by folks
from tomcat and jakarta pmcs. IMHO, this will not happen if a PMC
already voted to accept something even before Incubator PMC knows
about it (not to mention the other PMC's who may significant input).
Thanks,
dims
On 12/23/05, Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org> wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 22, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> >
> >> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
> >>
> >>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
> >>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
> >>
> >> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
> >> and I do have a vote here.
> >
> > It's interesting to note that if Dims would have, as he suggested
> > in one of his Email messages, to simply have the WS PMC vote
> > on the proposal as is, and it would have passed it, Roy's
> > concerns would have been totally moot. So no matter how good
> > or vague the proposal, if voted on by a PMC, it's allowed.
>
> A bunch of hypotheticals in there.
>
> If the WS-PMC had voted to approve a proposal that was "empty of
> significant content", then I would question the viability of that PMC.
>
> But as it is, that never happened. A draft proposal was created, it was
> reviewed by others, updated, and the objection based on lack of content
> was dropped. That could very well have happened in the WS PMC as well
> as here.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
>> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
>>
>>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
>>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
>>
>> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
>> and I do have a vote here.
>
> It's interesting to note that if Dims would have, as he suggested
> in one of his Email messages, to simply have the WS PMC vote
> on the proposal as is, and it would have passed it, Roy's
> concerns would have been totally moot. So no matter how good
> or vague the proposal, if voted on by a PMC, it's allowed.
A bunch of hypotheticals in there.
If the WS-PMC had voted to approve a proposal that was "empty of
significant content", then I would question the viability of that PMC.
But as it is, that never happened. A draft proposal was created, it was
reviewed by others, updated, and the objection based on lack of content
was dropped. That could very well have happened in the WS PMC as well
as here.
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 5:14 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
>>>
>>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
>>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
>>
>> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
>> and I do have a vote here.
>
> It's interesting to note that if Dims would have, as he suggested
> in one of his Email messages, to simply have the WS PMC vote
> on the proposal as is, and it would have passed it, Roy's
> concerns would have been totally moot. So no matter how good
> or vague the proposal, if voted on by a PMC, it's allowed.
Yes, and I trust the other PMCs to be responsible for their
own actions.
I think people forget that the Incubator is just a place where
people incubate their own projects. The PMC doesn't incubate them.
The PMC is just the collective dude with a finger on the
good egg/bad egg reject button.
....Roy
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
>>
>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
>
> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
> and I do have a vote here.
It's interesting to note that if Dims would have, as he suggested
in one of his Email messages, to simply have the WS PMC vote
on the proposal as is, and it would have passed it, Roy's
concerns would have been totally moot. So no matter how good
or vague the proposal, if voted on by a PMC, it's allowed.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 6:23 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
>> On 21.12.2005, at 21:57, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>>>> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a
>>>> project in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at
>>>> the raft of projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS
>>>> PMC. There's not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits.
>>>> The only thing I can say is whether or not their community is
>>>> good enough to merit graduation.
>>>
>>> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
>>> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
>>> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
>>> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do
>>> have
>>> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
>>> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
>>
>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
>
> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
> and I do have a vote here. In any case, I objected to the proposal
> because it was empty of significant content, and removed by objection
> once it was filled. I did not prevent them from working on an
> architecture that I still believe to be a waste of time -- I only
> made sure that they all agreed on what they wanted to work on,
> because I think that is a minimum for any collaboration.
As the sponsor/champion of Tuscany, I'll be the first to admit that
Roy was actually right on with his criticism.
The proposal didn't reflect what the proposers were actually
thinking, and it forced the team to review and rewrite, and the
result is IMO a stronger, clearer proposal and statement of intent.
geir
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Erik Abele wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>> What you do have is the right to vote against their graduation if
>>> you so desire.
> The second sentence does exactly what the first sentence forbids, no?
> It tells people what they cannot do at the ASF.
It is established that the Incubator is the sole authority on new entry
into the ASF. The talking point is the barrier into the vestibule, if you
will.
Roy wants an open policy, others are concerned that there is too much
chaos and confusion in the antechambers. Worse, they are concerned that
projects under the Incubator may be causing confusion about what is and is
not under the imprimatur of the ASF.
We can revisit branding, but I don't believe that a totally non-ASF brand
is at all warranted, as explained by Justin.
--- Noel
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 23.12.2005, at 00:23, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
>> On 21.12.2005, at 21:57, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>>>> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a
>>>> project in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at
>>>> the raft of projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS
>>>> PMC. There's not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits.
>>>> The only thing I can say is whether or not their community is
>>>> good enough to merit graduation.
>>>
>>> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
>>> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
>>> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
>>> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do
>>> have
>>> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
>>> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
>>
>> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
>> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
>
> Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
> and I do have a vote here. In any case, I objected to the proposal
> because it was empty of significant content, and removed by objection
> once it was filled. I did not prevent them from working on an
> architecture that I still believe to be a waste of time -- I only
> made sure that they all agreed on what they wanted to work on,
> because I think that is a minimum for any collaboration.
That's all fine and to be honest I didn't expect a detailed answer to
my exaggerated question - what I wanted to show is that your
authoritative sounding reply to Ted did contain a very conflictive
view and I think that might confuse a lot of people:
>>> You don't have the right to tell other people what they can or
>>> cannot do at the ASF.
vs.
>>> What you do have is the right to vote against their graduation if
>>> you so desire.
The second sentence does exactly what the first sentence forbids, no?
It tells people what they cannot do at the ASF.
Maybe I'm too picky or this is a language thing, not sure - just
wanted to point that out.
>> Sorry, I may be a pain in the ass, but that's all very conflictive
>> IMHO...
>
> Pay attention to the details.
I do.
Cheers,
Erik
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 10:53 AM, Erik Abele wrote:
> On 21.12.2005, at 21:57, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>>> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a
>>> project in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at
>>> the raft of projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS
>>> PMC. There's not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits.
>>> The only thing I can say is whether or not their community is
>>> good enough to merit graduation.
>>
>> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
>> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
>> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
>> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do have
>> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
>> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
>
> So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of
> the Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
Because Tuscany was proposed to the incubator PMC (not another PMC)
and I do have a vote here. In any case, I objected to the proposal
because it was empty of significant content, and removed by objection
once it was filled. I did not prevent them from working on an
architecture that I still believe to be a waste of time -- I only
made sure that they all agreed on what they wanted to work on,
because I think that is a minimum for any collaboration.
> Sorry, I may be a pain in the ass, but that's all very conflictive
> IMHO...
Pay attention to the details.
....Roy
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 21.12.2005, at 21:57, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a
>> project in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at
>> the raft of projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS
>> PMC. There's not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits.
>> The only thing I can say is whether or not their community is good
>> enough to merit graduation.
>
> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do have
> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
So nobody has the right but you do? Or how can your smack-down of the
Tuscany proposal be interpreted?
On 30.11.2005, at 21:43, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> As much as I would enjoy seeing two umbrella projects duel over
> an amorphous set of marketing terms invented by IBM, I think the
> ASF should be developing products, not architectural styles.
> Although, calling SOA an architectural style would imply that it has
> some constraints -- does anyone know what they are?
>
> I think we need to reorganize around federations, but that's a
> very long discussion that I have no time for right now. We certainly
> don't need more than one WS/SOA federation.
>
> Please make the proposal specific to a single, technical product
> line that has objective criteria against which you can make basic
> decisions about what to release and when it is ready to release.
> That way we aren't just sponsoring a bunch of individuals, each
> working on their own solo project within an opaque mist of vague
> relationships.
So why don't you get involved instead or vote against their
graduation if you so desire?
Sorry, I may be a pain in the ass, but that's all very conflictive
IMHO...
Cheers,
Erik
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 12:57:59PM -0800, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
> >How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a project
> >in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at the raft of
> >projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS PMC. There's
> >not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits. The only thing I
> >can say is whether or not their community is good enough to merit
> >graduation.
>
> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do have
> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
Exactly. The other PMCs are authorized to perform actions on the ASF's
behalf, in the interests of the ASF. If they determine that bringing
Project FOO to the ASF is the best choice, then it is a done deal
unless overridden by the Board. And I will note that the Board will
give extreme prejudice to the authorizing PMC, so any appeal to the
Board better have some good reasoning :-)
The Incubator *is* charged with ensuring that the legal needs have
been met, and that there has been appropriate teaching about how
Apache projects are run. The Board *has* authorized them with
performing those actions.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 23 December 2005 21:55, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> There are lots of bad reasons to come to the ASF and high on my list
> is "to take advantage of the brand".
A safe bet is that there are a lot of "brand talks" involved in the
discussions "let's move to Apache".
I am sure that there are "brand leveraging" going on in existing projects and
their 'affiliated' companies. I am sure individuals leverage the brand for
private awards, be it speaker engagements, consultancy jobs or what not.
ASF can not escape "the brand" due to its success in various projects. It
needs to embrace that this is a reality, and deal with it in a dilligent
manner. Saying "fascination of the Apache brand" disqualifies a project for
Incubation is far too naive, leading to acceptance of those projects that
manages to mask or hide such "fascination". IMHO, rules that can be broken
without detection is effectively of no use.
A sidenote to that; It is interesting to notice that many projects seeking
incubation, make the assertion that "ASF is strong in building
communities" (which seems to sooth ASF a lot), yet projects are expected to
have strong communities prior to being accepted.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
>
>>>Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
>>>of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
>>>the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>>
>>-1
>>
>>Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
>>events to the public.
>
> ...
>
>>>Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
>>>project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>>
>>-1
>>
>>I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
>>items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
>
>
> I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
> to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
> incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
> coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
> between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
I would be surprised if anyone made a decision of any consequence
based on what they saw on a T-shirt or a coffee mug :) I certainly
don't see that happening if the mug or T-shirt simply urges people
to check the project out and get involved in its development, and
when it carries the required disclaimer.
>
> We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
> minted words.
The requirements I know of are the word "incubating" in the name
of the tarball and the disclaimer at the top of the project's README.
With that and with the approval of the Incubator PMC, podlings are
permitted to do releases. So if that's good enough for the actual
code why not for the mug or T-shirt, especially when the approval
comes from the Board itself?
> Given we can't do that with t-shirts,
Pardon my ignorance but how is that a given? I ask because I've read
two contradictory opinions. When asked informally, at least three
ASF members (one of them a Board member, and one of them our mentor)
responded favorably to our request to print T-shirts promoting the
STDCXX podling.
> its best to just say
> no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
> that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
> the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
> losing.
My concern is that by restricting how we can talk about new efforts
in the incubator and to whom, the ASF makes it exceedingly difficult
for podlings to build up communities around them. Since the ASF has
accepted the donated projects I would expect it to want to do its
best to help them succeed. Instead, my impression from discussions
such as this one is that there is an atmosphere of distrust of new
projects, especially those donated by third parties.
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/25/2005 6:03 PM, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
>
>
>>>Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
>>>of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
>>>the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>>>
>>>
>>-1
>>
>>Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
>>events to the public.
>>
>>
>...
>
>
>>>Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
>>>project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>-1
>>
>>I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
>>items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
>>
>>
>
>I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
>to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
>incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
>coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
>between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
>
>We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
>minted words. Given we can't do that with t-shirts, its best to just say
>no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
>that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
>the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
>losing.
>
>So I agree with Dain's proposals!
>
>
These reflect my sentiments as well.
Regards,
Alan
Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Sat, 2005-12-24 at 13:00 -0700, Martin Sebor wrote:
> > Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
> > of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
> > the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
>
> -1
>
> Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
> events to the public.
...
> > Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> > project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>
> -1
>
> I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
> items as long as their design is approved by the ASF.
I disagree on both counts - while going thru incubation it is important
to recognize that a project is *not* part of the ASF until it completes
incubation. If we allow people to do press releases, print t-shirts and
coffee mugs etc., then the rest of the world has no way to distinguish
between a real ASF project and an incubating one.
We don't allow code releases from the incubator except with carefully
minted words. Given we can't do that with t-shirts, its best to just say
no. Press releases could have the disclaimer text- but the reality is
that when the story gets carried by various folks they drop that stuff-
the story simply isn't powerful enough with a disclaimer. So we end up
losing.
So I agree with Dain's proposals!
Sanjiva.
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
[...]
> IMHO, actually very _few_ companies issue PR around their ASF
> involvement, considering the fact that the ASF biosphere is one of a
> myriad of tiny (one-person), small (a few people), and then larger
> companies employing individuals which contribute to ASF projects, quite
> a few of them during company hours.
Doesn't that imply that there is no problem with press releases, then,
and thus no reason to prohibit donor companies from putting them out?
[...]
>
> Are the companies not issuing PR lazy asses, or plain dumb? Not willing
> to inform the public?
I would be more inclined to think that they simply do not consider
it worthwhile. Donating a 100 KLOC project and the time of a handful
of developers may not be a big deal to a billion dollar company, but
it most likely is for a company that's fraction of the size. Especially
one that doesn't seek to derive significant immediate revenue from doing
so.
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24 Dec 2005, at 21:00, Martin Sebor wrote:
> Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
> events to the public. Certainly, donating a substantial code base
> and committing to maintaining and typically also supporting that
> code base free of charge while at the same time taking on the task
> of building a diverse community around the donated project and
> shepherding it through the incubation process is a noteworthy
> event and can be a significant financial undertaking on the part
> of the donating organization that the public has the right to know
> about.
Snif. "the right to know about"
IMHO, actually very _few_ companies issue PR around their ASF
involvement, considering the fact that the ASF biosphere is one of a
myriad of tiny (one-person), small (a few people), and then larger
companies employing individuals which contribute to ASF projects, quite
a few of them during company hours.
Just for starters, crosscheck the affiliations listed on
http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html against a PR News search
tool. And that's only ASF members.
Are the companies not issuing PR lazy asses, or plain dumb? Not willing
to inform the public?
> And they do -- their software :)
Sorry to say, but: big deal. Compare that with the value of the ASF
brand for the donating entity. Lines of code are a side-effect of
developer team-work, and it's much more difficult to grow a team and a
brand than to actually code.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought Open Source Java & XML
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Martin Sebor <se...@roguewave.com>.
Dain Sundstrom wrote:
[...]
> I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
> Guidelines Documentation" which would contain things, like:
+1 so far. I agree that better, more detailed guidelines would help
organizations or communities not familiar with the process prevent
confusion and avoid misunderstanding.
>
> Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially part
> of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is part of
> the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't go here.
-1
Press releases are a means for companies to announce noteworthy
events to the public. Certainly, donating a substantial code base
and committing to maintaining and typically also supporting that
code base free of charge while at the same time taking on the task
of building a diverse community around the donated project and
shepherding it through the incubation process is a noteworthy
event and can be a significant financial undertaking on the part
of the donating organization that the public has the right to know
about.
If there is a perceived problem with these types of announcements
wouldn't a better approach be for the Apache PRC to anticipate and
proactively try to prevent them, perhaps by offering to help with
the press release? A set of guidelines describing what is and isn't
appropriate for such a press release would be helpful as well.
>
> Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
-1
I see nothing wrong with printing T-shirts or other promotional
items as long as their design is approved by the ASF. Companies
need to be able to make use of their resources to promote the
donated projects in an honest effort to build a community around
them. It doesn't just help the project, it's also free advertising
for the ASF. Since the ASF gets to approve or reject a request
for the use of its trademarks I don't see any risk here.
>
> Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
+1
I'm not sure exactly what this means but I am certainly in favor
of documenting the process of copyright transfer even better than
it is now.
>
> Do donate to the ASF :)
And they do -- their software :)
Martin
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Re: Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 11:05:05AM -0800, Dain Sundstrom wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Ted Leung wrote:
>
> >To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority
> >of people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly)
> >is branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many
> >people treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company
> >wants do when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
>
> I keep seeing this sentiment repeated on this list and I think we
> should address this concern directly.
+1.
> I've dealt with a few companies involved with projects being
> incubated, and everyone of them was very concerned about doing the
> right thing. The last thing they want to do is anger the ASF right
> when they are getting involved. The problem I have found is that
> they are just not familiar with the incubator, and make bad
> assumption.
Yep, that often seems to be the case.
> I bet that if we let the corporations know the "Dos and
> Don'ts" of working with the incubator, they will be followed (at
> least more often then they are now :)
I bet this bet is the very mistake we've made in the past.
> I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
> Guidelines Documentation"
that could make sense.
> which would contain things, like:
>
> Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially
> part of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is
> part of the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't
> go here.
>
> Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
> project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
>
> Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
>
> Do donate to the ASF :)
>
> I'm sure there are many more.
>
> What do you think?
I've been mulling on this for some time. I don't know how to phrase this
just yet. But since you asked, I will try anyway.
I think it is a pipe dream that having things like lots of checklists,
lots of process documentation, ISO 2000-compliant processes (FWIW,
ISO 2000 and the ASF don't mesh well, we are based on self-driven
volunteers not on management or top down process monitoring), or anything
like that is ever going to address this kind of concern.
The ASF is not like a corporation and its processes are not like those of
a corporation. Corporations that want to be part of the open source community
need to change a whole lot.
This documentation should be a little more like:
"""The below advice is for technical managers, project managers, PR staff,
quality assurance staff, marketing staff, and people in other kinds of
corperate roles who will be involved with the open sourcing of a corporate
project through the ASF.
To understand the incubation process you should take a look at a few
years of open source development and incubation history at the ASF. Read
all of the documentation on http://www.apache.org/, in particular the
'How things work' documentation. Read all of the documentation on
http://incubator.apache.org/. Understand that this documentation is and
always will be behind on actual practice. Read all of the email from the
general@jakarta.apache.org mailing list archives that has to do with
the incubation of the Tapestry project. Read most of the email from the
general@incubator.apache.org archives. Pay attention to some of the
"process threads". Make a case study of one or two projects that
graduated successfully (I recommend looking at SpamAssassin, a mature
open source project that proceeded through the incubation process very
successfully), read their dev-list archives as well (both before they came
to the ASF, during incubation, and afterwards).
If you are new to open source community development in the apache way
(hint: its likely that you are), be prepared to spend a full work week
reading about this stuff, thinking about it, etc. You will have questions
to which you can't find the answer. Send e-mail to
general@incubator.apache.org with your question. You will likely receive
several answers, often not completely compatible. Get used to this.
If you are somewhat new to open source in general, also read at least
* "the cathedral and the bazaar" by Eric S. Raymond
* "Open Source Licensing" by Lawrence Rosen
* "the cluetrain manifesto" by a variety of authors
* "Subversion Version Control : Using the Subversion Version Control
System in Development Projects" by William Nagel
I'll also recommend watching the movie "FUD". Watch it together with all of
your collegues and discuss it afterwards.
these sources will contain a variety of details which may be a lot more
technical than you're used to and/or far more materials which are not so
close to your day job at your corporation. Get used to this too. To
continue to be productive at your job with respect to this to-be-open-source
project, you will need to understand "how open source works", which involves
understanding the moral principles underlying it, its chaotic process and
work environment. You will most likely need to get used to using some
"programmer tools", including SVN and Jira.
Be prepared to embark on a personal path down the open source road that will
take you several months to start. Most likely, you'll try to be walking it for
the rest of your life if you make it that far.
If you're in charge of your corporate open source efforts, you'll understand
and recognize that all of the above is going to take your staff many many hours
over the course a several months, and has the possibility of resulting in some
radical changes to your corporate processes. Yup.
"""
- LSD
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Corporations and the incubator
Posted by Dain Sundstrom <da...@iq80.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 9:19 PM, Ted Leung wrote:
> To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority
> of people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly)
> is branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many
> people treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company
> wants do when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
I keep seeing this sentiment repeated on this list and I think we
should address this concern directly.
I've dealt with a few companies involved with projects being
incubated, and everyone of them was very concerned about doing the
right thing. The last thing they want to do is anger the ASF right
when they are getting involved. The problem I have found is that
they are just not familiar with the incubator, and make bad
assumption. I bet that if we let the corporations know the "Dos and
Don'ts" of working with the incubator, they will be followed (at
least more often then they are now :)
I suggest we add a "For corporations" section to the "Incubator
Guidelines Documentation" which would contain things, like:
Don't do a press release. An incubating project is not officially
part of the ASF, and a press release will imply that the project is
part of the ASF. This one really makes ASF members angry, so don't
go here.
Don't "just" print some t-shirts with the ASF logo or the incubating
project's logo. See "Don't do a press release" for reasons.
Do move copyright notices from all source files to the NOTICE file.
Do donate to the ASF :)
I'm sure there are many more.
What do you think?
-dain
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 12:19 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>
>>
>> That's because an Apache project is an EFFORT of the ASF. It is not
>> some diploma that people receive at the end of graduation.
>> Everything
>> done at the ASF is an Apache project. Some are organized better than
>> others, and some are allowed to make their own release decisions, but
>> all of them are collaborative projects using ASF infrastructure and
>> following the literal meaning of Contributor as defined in our
>> license.
>> And, when needed, the board can terminate a project whether it is in
>> the incubator or not.
>
> To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority
> of people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly)
> is branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many
> people treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company
> wants do when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
There are lots of bad reasons to come to the ASF and high on my list
is "to take advantage of the brand".
Maybe then we address that issue head-on, and simply ask that a
contributing company doesn't do a press release for n months after
entering incubation? And when the project graduates, we do a good
job assisting them with a joint release or something as the reward.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> >IMHO it would be better to ask pmc'er to vote not for a passive sponsorship
> >but an active promise to commit resources to provide oversight for the
> >podling.
>
> When asked to vote for a new podling on the WS PMC, I never understood a
> +1 to mean something different?
Yes, i reckon that you are onto something there, Robert.
In my book, a +1 vote means "yes i want it to happen
and i will help to make it happen". Otherwise vote +0
to mean "i don't feel strongly about it, but I'm okay with it".
Reading between the lines of the definitions at
http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
seems to support that.
I have never helped mentor a project, but imagine
that it would hard without more old-hands helping
to lead the way for the community and procedural
side of things.
-David
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> IMHO it would be better to ask pmc'er to vote not for a passive sponsorship
> but an active promise to commit resources to provide oversight for the
> podling.
When asked to vote for a new podling on the WS PMC, I never understood a
+1 to mean something different?
Jochen
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 12/23/05, Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com> wrote:
<snip>
If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the Foundation to
> accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources ("people") -
> then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that
> decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing the Incubator PMC
> can decide is whether the project can "leave" the Incubator.
IMO this highlights one of the problems: ATM pmc's do not need to commit to
anything other than a vague promise that they'll consider accepting the
podling after graduation. if they decide that they don't want the podling
then they can just ask that it becomes a TLP. so, voting +1 has no cost to
the pmc.
IMHO it would be better to ask pmc'er to vote not for a passive sponsorship
but an active promise to commit resources to provide oversight for the
podling.
- robert
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 4:07 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire thread: people
> are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what
> basis?
>
In my mind, there are 2 considerations: What is in the best interest
of the PMC, and what is in the best interest of the ASF. For
the vast majority of the time, the 2 dovetail v. nicely, and
there are no problems. However, it is possible for things to
conflict, and something that a PMC wants to not coincide with
the best interests of the ASF. Again, I would remind people
of the origin problems with Jakarta as an example.
I feel that the board has the responsibility to look after
what is in the best interests of the ASF. I also feel that
they have delegated this responsibility, as far as "monitoring
and regulating" new projects to the Incubator.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 10:57 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>> I am no longer convinced of this. Having the Incubator PMC there as
>> a "check and balance" is a good thing as it requires engagement from
>> others interested in this aspect of ASF life. It prevents one
>> individual or one PMC from being able to make significant social or
>> technological change, or at least ensure that there is a
>> theoretically impartial observer keeping track. It allows interested
>> members and other community members to "put their money where their
>> mouth is" on this topic, and join the Incubator PMC to help out.
>
> I don't think that can scale appropriately.
>
> Why would the Incubator PMC know more about whether mod_ftp is a
> good fit
> for the Foundation than the entire HTTP Server PMC?
I certainly agree that in 99% of the cases, this would be the case,
and I would never expect the Incubator PMC to ever stand in the way
of any proposal unless there is good reason of broader scope.
Healthy PMCs will IMO always do the right thing.
I was thinking more along the lines of the Incubator having to vote
and therefore do some due-diligence. It also does give the Incubator
PMC some control over rate of growth. I'm worried about growth, but
not anti-, but certainly worry about the incubator being stretched
too thin to effectively provide the legal oversight and community
shaping. Our incoming rate is faster than the outgoing rate - at
what point do we have more than we can handle?
Imagine if every PMC did what the Geronimo PMC just did, and invited
in say 5 new projects (as is their right).
That's about 150 new podlings at once. How would we deal with that?
I don't expect this to happen, but maybe you can see my point.
>
>> I think that there's little downside to this. A check on the
>> Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
>> board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
>> treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
>> way they disagreed with.
>>
>> And the board has to answer to the membership.
>
> I believe that there is *major* downside to having the Incubator PMC
> second-guess the decisions of other PMCs.
>
> If someone doesn't like the decision of a PMC, they shouldn't be
> able to
> use the Inucbator PMC as cover for their attacks. People who don't
> like
> what's going on in that PMC should confront that PMC directly. If
> they
> don't like what's going on in that PMC and have tried to redress their
> grievances directly, they can go to the Board.
I'm assuming a healthy Incubator PMC here - not one in which one
person can leverage to attack a PMC.
> Although, the Board is rightly wary of interposing itself in technical
> decisions. We have no idea what makes technical sense or not either.
Right - I wouldn't think that the Incubator PMC would want to make
decisions based on technical merit either. That's a non-starter - we
have to assume that each PMC is the most clueful in their technology
domain.
But code sources, committer diversity, availability of volunteer
resources in and around the incubator all are things we can
consider. Like it or not, the INcubator PMC is the locus of these
efforts, and it's real resources that are needed for each podling.
>
>>> Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and
>>> what's
>>> not. That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire
>>> thread: people
>>> are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what
>>> basis?
>>
>> I agree here - I would never want to exclude based on technology. I
>> do the thought experiment from time to time and ask myself which
>> projects I would have excluded if ordered to limit growth at the ASF,
>> and I never have a good answer. Maybe not let those "toaster language
>> bytecode people" in? I think our current java communities are a
>> *huge* asset. How about the pointy-bracket folks?
>>
>> We need to actually increase our technical diversity here - we have
>> no real Ruby-oriented communities, nor any coherent .NET identity,
>> and I think that's going to hurt us in the long run.
>
> That's why this talk about limiting growth is so dangerous. The
> foundation
> should go where our PMCs and our members want. -- justin
It's dangerous, but it's also a consideration of a vocal and active
part of the membership. It can't be ignored.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> That's why this talk about limiting growth is so dangerous. The foundation
> should go where our PMCs and our members want. -- justin
I reckon that the way to handle it is to document our
processes properly. If each new podling got involved
in fine-tuning the content of the Incubator site docs
then we would quickly streamline the process for those
that follow. Everything would organically get easier.
A lot of time seems to be wasted in confusion about
what it means to be in the Incubator, how to get in,
how to exit, what needs to be learned before getting out,
operating principles, etc. We need some dot points.
The existing website content is a start, but it is in
dire need of attention. Thanks to Jean for the new energy.
-David
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 12/23/05, Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
> On 23.12.2005, at 16:57, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> > ...
> >> I think that there's little downside to this. A check on the
> >> Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
> >> board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
> >> treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
> >> way they disagreed with.
> >> And the board has to answer to the membership.
> >
> > I believe that there is *major* downside to having the Incubator PMC
> > second-guess the decisions of other PMCs.
>
> +1.
>
> > If someone doesn't like the decision of a PMC, they shouldn't be
> > able to
> > use the Inucbator PMC as cover for their attacks. People who don't
> > like
> > what's going on in that PMC should confront that PMC directly. If
> > they
> > don't like what's going on in that PMC and have tried to redress their
> > grievances directly, they can go to the Board.
>
> +1.
requiring a vote by the incubator pmc would not be about second
guessing the wishes of a pmc but applying a second set of criteria.
these would be a subset of the criteria that the incubator pmc applies
to graduation. in most cases, this should be a formality but i believe
that these is sufficient concern amongst the membership to justify
adding this additional bit of ceremony.
(and yes, i do know that this sucks in many ways and this extra
ceremony will hamper community based proposals but i think that our
hand has been forced. we should deal with the problems surrounding
innovation and ceremony separately.)
IMO given that podlings are being aggressively publicised
(unfortunately now sometimes even before they are born) and strongly
associated with the ASF in the minds of the public, there is now a
certain level of due diligence which can no longer be left to be
sorted out once the podling has been accepted for incubation.
in particular:
1 project names (it's no longer good enough to enter the incubator
with a legally suspect name)
2 lack of oversight energy
3 that the initial legal paperwork is in order
4 any other issues which would give the podling no hope of graduating
including a formal vote from the incubator pmc would have (i believe)
additional process advantages: it will give a clear line for
evangelists - no talking about a potential podlings as if it were an
apache project until this vote is passed.
- robert
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Re: Growth Summary
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On December 23, 2005 12:47:26 PM -0500 Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Q: The Incubator controls who leaves... who controls who
>> enters? It seems like both are needed.
>> A: Yes, and there are controls for who enters as well.
>> Applicants must be sponsored by a current PMC, or
>> the board. There is currently some discussion on
>
> I thought the Board delegated the initial proposal approval of new TLP
> projects (i.e. no sponsoring PMC) to the Incubator PMC? As a
> checkpoint, the Board will certify the *exit* of podling's TLPs after
> the Incubator certifies again. When a project has PMC approval, the
> Incubaotr PMC alone can do the certification of exit.
It effectively works out that way.
As a current PMC, the incubator can sponsor a proposal. In fact, the
incubator policy[1] explicitly calls out this case.
I don't expect the board to ever sponsor a project again - but then
again the board hasn't given up the right to do so.
- Sam Ruby
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Sponsor
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Re: Growth Summary
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On December 23, 2005 12:47:26 PM -0500 Jim Jagielski
> <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
>
>> Q: The Incubator controls who leaves... who controls who
>> enters? It seems like both are needed.
>> A: Yes, and there are controls for who enters as well.
>> Applicants must be sponsored by a current PMC, or
>> the board. There is currently some discussion on
>
> I thought the Board delegated the initial proposal approval of new
> TLP projects (i.e. no sponsoring PMC) to the Incubator PMC? As a
> checkpoint, the Board will certify the *exit* of podling's TLPs
> after the Incubator certifies again. When a project has PMC
> approval, the Incubaotr PMC alone can do the certification of exit.
>
The board has always reserved the right to sponsor a new project. That
doesn't go away, even when we want the Incubator to do it.
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Re: Growth Summary
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
--On December 23, 2005 12:47:26 PM -0500 Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>
wrote:
> Q: The Incubator controls who leaves... who controls who
> enters? It seems like both are needed.
> A: Yes, and there are controls for who enters as well.
> Applicants must be sponsored by a current PMC, or
> the board. There is currently some discussion on
I thought the Board delegated the initial proposal approval of new TLP
projects (i.e. no sponsoring PMC) to the Incubator PMC? As a checkpoint,
the Board will certify the *exit* of podling's TLPs after the Incubator
certifies again. When a project has PMC approval, the Incubaotr PMC alone
can do the certification of exit.
Nice synergy there, methinks. -- justin
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Growth Summary
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
I'd like summarize the discussion so far, with comments
regarding my own PoV...
Q: Is the Incubator out of control?
A: No, it's not. The Incubator is actually working out
quite well, and performing its duties. Yes, occasionally
some things slip through the cracks, but "out of
control" hardly describes it. Note that whether or
not the Incubator is in or out of control is a
different question that anything regarding growth.
Q: Ok Mister Smart guy, is the ASF growing too quickly?
A: I'm sure that some members feel that we may be doing
so. I feel we are growing quickly, but wouldn't say
that it is "too" quickly. Certainly from a board
perspective, we could grow quite a bit (say double
the current size) with no real impact. And
Infrastructure is currently making plans on how
to handle growth and scale issues.
Q: Is the ASF doing anything to control growth?
A: There are 2 ways that the ASF grows. One is the addition
of additional members, PMC members and committers to the
community. I don't think that people, right now, are
too concerned about this type of growth, except maybe from
the membership aspect, and that's mostly for quorum legal
reasons (but again, I'm sure that some members likely
have some concerns about members being added before they
"should" be). No, it appears that most of the concern
is about growth of the number of projects, and I'm guessing
that this is what your question is really concerned about...
Q: Yes, it is. So, what's the answer?
A: All new projects (and incoming codebases) arrive at the
ASF via the Incubator. Without going into too much detail,
Incubated projects do not become ASF projects until
the are voted on graduation by the Incubator PMC. Thus,
the Incubator PMC serves as a gatekeeper for new ASF
projects.
Q: The Incubator controls who leaves... who controls who
enters? It seems like both are needed.
A: Yes, and there are controls for who enters as well.
Applicants must be sponsored by a current PMC, or
the board. There is currently some discussion on
whether the Incubator can (or should) also have some
say in this. Some feel that such a thing is either
outside of the "powers" given to the Incubator, or would
constitute undue influence of one PMC over another.
Others feel that the Incubator would be serving as
the eyes and ears of the board to ensure the continued
health of the ASF overall by having some say, a form
of "checks and balances."
Q: Sounds like a control issue... What's wrong with these
people!?
A: No, it's not. The people discussing this have a very deep
affinity for the ASF. They want what's best for the ASF,
and as with most things in life, sometimes people have
different points of views. It's unfair and inaccurate
to describe people as either careless (at the one end
of the spectrum) or control freaks (at the other).
Q: So why all the discussion?
A: The worst time to come to a consensus about an issue,
is when it is imminent. Being proactive is always a
good thing.
Q: So who decides?
A: The members do.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 23.12.2005, at 16:57, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> ...
>> I think that there's little downside to this. A check on the
>> Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
>> board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
>> treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
>> way they disagreed with.
>> And the board has to answer to the membership.
>
> I believe that there is *major* downside to having the Incubator PMC
> second-guess the decisions of other PMCs.
+1.
> If someone doesn't like the decision of a PMC, they shouldn't be
> able to
> use the Inucbator PMC as cover for their attacks. People who don't
> like
> what's going on in that PMC should confront that PMC directly. If
> they
> don't like what's going on in that PMC and have tried to redress their
> grievances directly, they can go to the Board.
+1.
> ...
>> We need to actually increase our technical diversity here - we have
>> no real Ruby-oriented communities, nor any coherent .NET identity,
>> and I think that's going to hurt us in the long run.
>
> That's why this talk about limiting growth is so dangerous. The
> foundation
> should go where our PMCs and our members want. -- justin
I agree that it is very dangerous talking about limits ab initio -
but on the other hand I think it is very important to talk about
growth. I'm not sure what the outcome of this discussion will bring,
but I think we have seen enough concerns that it at least warrants a
discussion (not conclusions!).
Maybe we find out it is enough to more efficently control PR
activities or to require two or more mentors or ... I don't know but
I'd like to explore the possibilities.
(I've written about all the mentioned concerns on members@ but
unfortunately nobody picked up the list so far.)
Cheers,
Erik
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 09:11:55AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I am no longer convinced of this. Having the Incubator PMC there as
> a "check and balance" is a good thing as it requires engagement from
> others interested in this aspect of ASF life. It prevents one
> individual or one PMC from being able to make significant social or
> technological change, or at least ensure that there is a
> theoretically impartial observer keeping track. It allows interested
> members and other community members to "put their money where their
> mouth is" on this topic, and join the Incubator PMC to help out.
I don't think that can scale appropriately.
Why would the Incubator PMC know more about whether mod_ftp is a good fit
for the Foundation than the entire HTTP Server PMC?
> I think that there's little downside to this. A check on the
> Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
> board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
> treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
> way they disagreed with.
>
> And the board has to answer to the membership.
I believe that there is *major* downside to having the Incubator PMC
second-guess the decisions of other PMCs.
If someone doesn't like the decision of a PMC, they shouldn't be able to
use the Inucbator PMC as cover for their attacks. People who don't like
what's going on in that PMC should confront that PMC directly. If they
don't like what's going on in that PMC and have tried to redress their
grievances directly, they can go to the Board.
Although, the Board is rightly wary of interposing itself in technical
decisions. We have no idea what makes technical sense or not either.
> >Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and
> >what's
> >not. That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire
> >thread: people
> >are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what
> >basis?
>
> I agree here - I would never want to exclude based on technology. I
> do the thought experiment from time to time and ask myself which
> projects I would have excluded if ordered to limit growth at the ASF,
> and I never have a good answer. Maybe not let those "toaster language
> bytecode people" in? I think our current java communities are a
> *huge* asset. How about the pointy-bracket folks?
>
> We need to actually increase our technical diversity here - we have
> no real Ruby-oriented communities, nor any coherent .NET identity,
> and I think that's going to hurt us in the long run.
That's why this talk about limiting growth is so dangerous. The foundation
should go where our PMCs and our members want. -- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 23, 2005, at 4:07 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
> If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the
> Foundation to
> accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources
> ("people") -
> then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that
> decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing the
> Incubator PMC
> can decide is whether the project can "leave" the Incubator.
>
> Even without a PMC, if *one* of our members out there thinks a
> project is
> worth doing and they can write something mildly resembling a
> charter down
> on paper, that's all I need to hear for a +1. The project *they*
> believe
> in deserves the institutional support of the Foundation. We can
> not be
> second-guessing people's motives as to why they believe it's a good
> idea.
I am no longer convinced of this. Having the Incubator PMC there as
a "check and balance" is a good thing as it requires engagement from
others interested in this aspect of ASF life. It prevents one
individual or one PMC from being able to make significant social or
technological change, or at least ensure that there is a
theoretically impartial observer keeping track. It allows interested
members and other community members to "put their money where their
mouth is" on this topic, and join the Incubator PMC to help out.
I think that there's little downside to this. A check on the
Incubator PMC is the board - any member or PMC could appeal to the
board in the event that they believed their proposals were not being
treated fairly, or if the Incubator PMC was behaving in general in a
way they disagreed with.
And the board has to answer to the membership.
>
> Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and
> what's
> not. That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire
> thread: people
> are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what
> basis?
I agree here - I would never want to exclude based on technology. I
do the thought experiment from time to time and ask myself which
projects I would have excluded if ordered to limit growth at the ASF,
and I never have a good answer. Maybe not let those "toaster language
bytecode people" in? I think our current java communities are a
*huge* asset. How about the pointy-bracket folks?
We need to actually increase our technical diversity here - we have
no real Ruby-oriented communities, nor any coherent .NET identity,
and I think that's going to hurt us in the long run.
>
> To do so is to bang our collective heads on the wall: closing our
> borders
> is to forget where we came from and why we're here at all. -- justin
>
+1
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the Foundation to
> accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources ("people") -
> then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that
> decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing the Incubator
> PMC can decide is whether the project can "leave" the Incubator.
A fair summation, although there are people who believe that the Incubator
PMC should have more of a say in the entry of a project for Incubation.
Jim and Geir both raise the hypothetical of what would have happened if
Tuscany were submitted as a fait accompli by the WS PMC, rather than being
critiqued here. Following up on some comments and other examples from Dims,
I'd say that this raises a separate issue, which is something to address
Foundation-wide: how to push for more synergy and cooperation where
appropriate between our projects, without excluding cooperation with
external ones. To date, that has only been something promoted by
individuals, such as myself, who want to see ASF projects collaborating.
> Even without a PMC, if *one* of our members out there thinks a project is
> worth doing and they can write something mildly resembling a charter down
> on paper, that's all I need to hear for a +1.
That has been my policy, too, although if we adopt the notion that there
must be 3 Members/Officers as project mentors, it would take more than one
such mentor for a project to start.
I don't know whether or not that would satisfy Geir, unless we did something
about not having all of those mentors from the same PMC. There seem to be
concerns that some other PMC could become out of control, and game the rules
in the absence of some balance. Personally, I would hope for better from an
ASF Member, and will consider whether future candidates would make good
Incubator Mentors.
> That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire thread: people
> are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what basis?
Agreed. We must plan for scale, and ensure that AS WE SCALE, that the
proper processes are in place.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 01:43:11PM +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> With a lot of due respect Roy, I think the argument that unless one
> helps with infra one does not have a right to belly-ache is absurd. Not
> everyone is infra-savvy and/or infra-interested. I refuse to accept that
> not contributing to infra reduces Ted's or my contributions to the
> foundation or the incubator.
I believe that misses Roy's point: it's not about infra - it's about
dictating an individual's effort towards or against a particular project.
The ASF has never been about telling someone else what to do. The comments
that are being made in this thread are along the lines of "I know better
than you and you shouldn't work on this project because I think it's bad or
XYZ is better." That is not who we are or are about: you can not make that
value decision for anyone else.
If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the Foundation to
accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources ("people") -
then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that
decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing the Incubator PMC
can decide is whether the project can "leave" the Incubator.
Even without a PMC, if *one* of our members out there thinks a project is
worth doing and they can write something mildly resembling a charter down
on paper, that's all I need to hear for a +1. The project *they* believe
in deserves the institutional support of the Foundation. We can not be
second-guessing people's motives as to why they believe it's a good idea.
Cynics like me are the *worst* possible judges of what's cool and what's
not. That's the fundamental problem I have with this entire thread: people
are trying to limit the growth or exclude projects. How? On what basis?
To do so is to bang our collective heads on the wall: closing our borders
is to forget where we came from and why we're here at all. -- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@opensource.lk>.
On Thu, 2005-12-22 at 21:19 -0800, Ted Leung wrote:
> >
> > Right now, however, all I hear is belly-aching by people who have not
> > been doing any of the Incubator's work, nor that of infrastructure,
> > so have little basis to complain about anything.
>
> I was the mentor and co-sponsor for XMLBeans, which graduated from
> the incubator, after being there for about a year. As member of
> the incubator PMC, I feel that it is part of my responsibility to ask
> whether what we have is working for the foundation or not.
+1.
I too am on the incubator PMC and am mentoring 2 projects: Woden and
Synapse.
With a lot of due respect Roy, I think the argument that unless one
helps with infra one does not have a right to belly-ache is absurd. Not
everyone is infra-savvy and/or infra-interested. I refuse to accept that
not contributing to infra reduces Ted's or my contributions to the
foundation or the incubator.
I care a lot about the future of ASF and I have lots of concerns about
the incubation process and what it means to the ASF. I will pick up that
discussion on the members list.
Sanjiva.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:57 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
>> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a
>> project in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at
>> the raft of projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS
>> PMC. There's not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits.
>> The only thing I can say is whether or not their community is good
>> enough to merit graduation.
>
> Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
> have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
> the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
> deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do have
> is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
> to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
I understand how the rules currently work. I don't agree that they
are working well for us.
>
>>>> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
>>>> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
>
> Methinks you have forgotten that there was no bar before incubator
> existed -- the code was just copied to cvs.
No, I remember, and I wouldn't choose to go back to those days.
>
>>> And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
>>> Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are
>>> trying to make
>>> the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
>>> different.
>>> And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
>>
>> Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
>> incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that
>> once a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an
>> Apache project.
>
> That's because an Apache project is an EFFORT of the ASF. It is not
> some diploma that people receive at the end of graduation. Everything
> done at the ASF is an Apache project. Some are organized better than
> others, and some are allowed to make their own release decisions, but
> all of them are collaborative projects using ASF infrastructure and
> following the literal meaning of Contributor as defined in our
> license.
> And, when needed, the board can terminate a project whether it is in
> the incubator or not.
To us an Apache project is an effort of the ASF. To the majority of
people out there, being an Apache project (rightly or wrongly) is
branding stamp. You might not like it, but that's how many people
treat it. And that's why one of the first things a company wants do
when it proposes incubation is issue a press release.
>
> If people believe that the Incubator should not accept any new
> projects,
> then they should convince the board to make it so. The incubator is
> the place where people wanting to work on new projects can do so
> within a neutral environment with limited risk to the foundation.
> If you think that such things should be done at SourceForge instead,
> and that the ASF should only accept fully-formed communities after
> they have a questionable track-record of IP contributions, then go
> ahead and ask the board to shut down the incubator.
>
> Right now, however, all I hear is belly-aching by people who have not
> been doing any of the Incubator's work, nor that of infrastructure,
> so have little basis to complain about anything.
I was the mentor and co-sponsor for XMLBeans, which graduated from
the incubator, after being there for about a year. As member of
the incubator PMC, I feel that it is part of my responsibility to ask
whether what we have is working for the foundation or not.
Ted
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a project
> in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at the raft of
> projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS PMC. There's
> not a thing I can do, regardless of the merits. The only thing I
> can say is whether or not their community is good enough to merit
> graduation.
Right, and that's the only thing you are qualified to do. You don't
have the right to tell other people what they can or cannot do at
the ASF. You don't have the right to say that one project is more
deserving of our resources than some other project. What you do have
is the right to be involved, to help their incubation (or not), and
to vote against their graduation if you so desire.
>>> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
>>> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
Methinks you have forgotten that there was no bar before incubator
existed -- the code was just copied to cvs.
>> And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
>> Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are
>> trying to make
>> the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
>> different.
>> And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
>
> Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
> incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that
> once a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an
> Apache project.
That's because an Apache project is an EFFORT of the ASF. It is not
some diploma that people receive at the end of graduation. Everything
done at the ASF is an Apache project. Some are organized better than
others, and some are allowed to make their own release decisions, but
all of them are collaborative projects using ASF infrastructure and
following the literal meaning of Contributor as defined in our license.
And, when needed, the board can terminate a project whether it is in
the incubator or not.
If people believe that the Incubator should not accept any new projects,
then they should convince the board to make it so. The incubator is
the place where people wanting to work on new projects can do so
within a neutral environment with limited risk to the foundation.
If you think that such things should be done at SourceForge instead,
and that the ASF should only accept fully-formed communities after
they have a questionable track-record of IP contributions, then go
ahead and ask the board to shut down the incubator.
Right now, however, all I hear is belly-aching by people who have not
been doing any of the Incubator's work, nor that of infrastructure,
so have little basis to complain about anything.
....Roy
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Tuesday 27 December 2005 03:45, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Friday 23 December 2005 16:23, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> >> I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
> >> approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists
> >> are created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be
> >> a part of the ASF is a flat-out lie.
> >
> > So, that means disqualifying for Incubation and no chance of moving the
> > project to ASF??
>
> It means, IMHO, that they don't yet "get it." Since the purpose of the
> Incubator is to ensure that folks do indeed "get it", it would be
> unfortunate to disqualify for entrance anyone who has demonstrated that
> they don't in fact already get it.
>
> So, no, I'd say that this does not disqualify them for entrance. It does
> mean, however, that someone must approach them and instruct them on
> the ways in which their actions demonstrate a lack of getting it.
IMVHO, Justin's "in favour of enforcing a strict embargo" doesn't sound like
"hit their fingers and say 'Bad boy!', followed by a hug". A simple matrix of
act/consequence can be published on Incubator website, but isn't it necessary
to have some significant deterents? Otherwise, "flat-out lie" will be
accompanied with a "flat-out defiance".
> It seems that this process is already underway, via Ted.
I thought we were speaking "in general" and "pro-actively", since retro-active
measures are not really serving ASF either.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Friday 23 December 2005 16:23, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
>> approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists are
>> created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be a part
>> of the ASF is a flat-out lie.
>
> So, that means disqualifying for Incubation and no chance of moving the
> project to ASF??
It means, IMHO, that they don't yet "get it." Since the purpose of the
Incubator is to ensure that folks do indeed "get it", it would be
unfortunate to disqualify for entrance anyone who has demonstrated that
they don't in fact already get it.
So, no, I'd say that this does not disqualify them for entrance. It does
mean, however, that someone must approach them and instruct them on
the ways in which their actions demonstrate a lack of getting it. It
seems that this process is already underway, via Ted.
--
Rich Bowen
rbowen@rcbowen.com
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 23 December 2005 16:23, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
> approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists are
> created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be a part
> of the ASF is a flat-out lie.
So, that means disqualifying for Incubation and no chance of moving the
project to ASF??
Just curious.
Cheers
Niclas
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/21/2005 11:21 PM, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>On 12/21/05, Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Ted Leung wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
>>>>>low bar for access to the Apache brand name
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
>>>>Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are trying
>>>>to make
>>>>the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
>>>>different.
>>>>And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
>>>incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that once
>>>a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an Apache project.
>>>
>>>
>>that can be easily resolved.
>>you start up another domain say 'theincubator.org' or something 'proving
>>grounds' related and make sure it has no apache branding, and that no
>>project or PR firm can mention apache there.
>>
>>
>
>Although I'm not sure we should take that step right now, I don't
>think that's such a crazy suggestion. I do believe we should rethink
>the branding of incubating project:
>
>Today, we complain that corporations working on incubating projects
>are taking advantage of the Apache brand. We wonder why the press and
>public aren't aware of the distinction of incubating projects, and yet
>we *require* these projects always preface their name with the same
>master brand we use on fully endorse projects, "Apache".
>
>We can't keep a low bar for incoming incubating projects and allow for
>this confusion. We may indeed need a multibrand strategy when it
>comes to incubating projects.
>
>
I think that this thread has much merit and should be pursued further.
Regards,
Alan
RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> We can't keep a low bar for incoming incubating projects and allow for
> this confusion. We may indeed need a multibrand strategy when it
> comes to incubating projects.
Branding is orthogonal to the entry barrier.
I realize that some people are concerned about corporate involvement for PR.
Corporate involvement is not a bad thing. Loss of diversity and control is
a concern. Improper use of the brand is a concern. But corporate
involvement is not an a priori concern. Actually, one of the things
concerning me more is a stealth involvement where there is a corporate
involvement with many *undisclosed* tentacles.
--- Noel
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
? approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists are
> created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be a
part
> of the ASF is a flat-out lie. (In the future, the PRC is almost certainly
> going to reject any releases before this happens.)
Then we have a different policy to put into place: NO PR WITHOUT THE
APPROVAL OF THE PRC. And that should be applied to ALL ASF PROJECTS, not
just those in the Incubator. That puts more work on the PRC, which will
need to grow to scale, but I'd go for such an ASF-wide policy. We would
have to document that broadly, and make it clear to donors. That probably
won't help with the "We're planning to donate" type announcements, but ...
> after those steps occur (which should be relatively quickly in the
> order of a few weeks), removing the Apache brand from podlings would
> be incredibly harmful.
+1
> The only reason that these projects can have the 'Apache' brand is because
> a member of the Foundation is willing to act as mentor *and* the Incubator
> PMC approves each interim release. If the mentor isn't keeping the
project
> in line with respect to our values, then the Incubator or the
'destination'
> PMC needs to step in and provide guidance or terminate it.
Hopefully, a 3 active mentor policy will help with this issue.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 11:21:47PM -0800, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> Although I'm not sure we should take that step right now, I don't
> think that's such a crazy suggestion. I do believe we should rethink
> the branding of incubating project:
>
> Today, we complain that corporations working on incubating projects
> are taking advantage of the Apache brand. We wonder why the press and
> public aren't aware of the distinction of incubating projects, and yet
> we *require* these projects always preface their name with the same
> master brand we use on fully endorse projects, "Apache".
>
> We can't keep a low bar for incoming incubating projects and allow for
> this confusion. We may indeed need a multibrand strategy when it
> comes to incubating projects.
This comes out of the two part 'mission' of the Incubator:
- Deal with legal issues around a codebase to certify 'cleanliness'
- Build a community that can stand on its own in 'The Apache Way'
I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists are
created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be a part
of the ASF is a flat-out lie. (In the future, the PRC is almost certainly
going to reject any releases before this happens.)
However, after those steps occur (which should be relatively quickly in the
order of a few weeks), removing the Apache brand from podlings would be
incredibly harmful. We *want* these projects to grow and to become
full-fledged ASF projects capable of making decisions on their own. How
would they be created without the "Apache" name there in the first place?
There aren't going to be full-fledged projects and communities that just
walk in the door and become versed in our way with the quick blessing or a
nod. If that were the case, they don't have any need for the ASF. They
can stay where they are.
The only reason that these projects can have the 'Apache' brand is because
a member of the Foundation is willing to act as mentor *and* the Incubator
PMC approves each interim release. If the mentor isn't keeping the project
in line with respect to our values, then the Incubator or the 'destination'
PMC needs to step in and provide guidance or terminate it. -- justin
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On 12/21/05, Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net> wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
>
> >>
> >>> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
> >>> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
> >>
> >> And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
> >> Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are trying
> >> to make
> >> the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
> >> different.
> >> And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
>
> >
> > Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
> > incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that once
> > a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an Apache project.
>
> that can be easily resolved.
> you start up another domain say 'theincubator.org' or something 'proving
> grounds' related and make sure it has no apache branding, and that no
> project or PR firm can mention apache there.
Although I'm not sure we should take that step right now, I don't
think that's such a crazy suggestion. I do believe we should rethink
the branding of incubating project:
Today, we complain that corporations working on incubating projects
are taking advantage of the Apache brand. We wonder why the press and
public aren't aware of the distinction of incubating projects, and yet
we *require* these projects always preface their name with the same
master brand we use on fully endorse projects, "Apache".
We can't keep a low bar for incoming incubating projects and allow for
this confusion. We may indeed need a multibrand strategy when it
comes to incubating projects.
Cliff
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Ian Holsman <li...@holsman.net>.
Ted Leung wrote:
>
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>
>>> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
>>> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
>>
>> And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
>> Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are trying
>> to make
>> the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
>> different.
>> And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
>
> Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
> incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that once
> a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an Apache project.
that can be easily resolved.
you start up another domain say 'theincubator.org' or something 'proving
grounds' related and make sure it has no apache branding, and that no
project or PR firm can mention apache there.
projects of sufficient stature/passed the test of manhood get initiated
into the apache.org.
ie... it only starts becoming a apache project once it has finished the
incubation... I know technically this sounds identical to what is going
on, and to be honest it is. but for non-tech folks the non-association
is a big thing, and it will be harder for PR folk to say look.. it's an
apache think and make t-shirts for it etc etc
>
> Ted
>
>
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Ted Leung wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > The merits of the particular proposal aside
> > We should always be judging the merits of each proposal.
> > Failing to do so might well be part of the problem.
> How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a project
> in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at the raft of
> projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS PMC. There's not
> a thing I can do, regardless of the merits. The only thing I can say
> is whether or not their community is good enough to merit graduation.
When I say "We", above, I meant the ASF. All of the PMCs have a
responsibility to the Foundation. But are you going to say that the
Incubator PMC should be judging the performance of the other PMCs in living
up to their obligations?
> > And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in
> > the Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we
> > are trying to make the projects look different by being in the
> > Incubator. They ARE different. And they MUST be Incubator
> > branded, and follow Incubation rules.
> Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
> incubated project and an Apache project.
And we have to correct that lack of awareness.
> Roy has also stated that once a project is in the incubator it
> ought to be regarded as an Apache project.
I wouldn't take Roy's comment out of context. I don't believe that he means
it the way that you imply above.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 8:22 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> The merits of the particular proposal aside
>
> We should always be judging the merits of each proposal. Failing
> to do so
> might well be part of the problem.
How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a project
in without approval of the incubator PMC? Just look at the raft of
projects being brought in via Geronimo and the WS PMC. There's not
a thing I can do, regardless of the merits. The only thing I can say
is whether or not their community is good enough to merit graduation.
>
>> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
>> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
>
> And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
> Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are
> trying to make
> the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE
> different.
> And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
Most people in the world are unaware of the difference between an
incubated project and an Apache project. Roy has also stated that
once a project is in the incubator it ought to be regarded as an
Apache project.
Ted
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Davanum Srinivas <da...@gmail.com>.
Let's put htis to the board today
-- dims
On 12/21/05, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> > There is one thing that I think would be useful in
> > helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
> > in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
> > says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
> > side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
> > by the board, the Incubator should vote.
>
> It was presented to the Incubator PMC that when another PMC has voted, we
> don't have that option. I'd like to see a determination from the Board if
> that is to change.
>
> I will still say that if another PMC has voted, that unless they also
> provide a Member or Officer to provide oversight (not necessarily from that
> PMC), that the request is invalid.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
--
Davanum Srinivas : http://wso2.com/blogs/
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Mads Toftum <ma...@toftum.dk>.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 11:38:52AM -0500, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> There is one thing that I think would be useful in
> helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
> in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
> says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
> side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
> by the board, the Incubator should vote.
>
Absolutely! I'm surprised that this isn't the case already.
vh
Mads Toftum
--
`Darn it, who spiked my coffee with water?!' - lwall
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
(for the benefit of those joining the thread, here's the context)
> > On 12/22/05, robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > the way people vote are a matter of record and so reputations are at stake
> > both inside and outside apache. voting for a duff release or contributing to
> > a failure of oversight has personal consequences.
> >
> > i wonder whether one cause of some of the worries is that there is very
> > little at stake for the pmc and so very little reason for anyone to ever
> > vote -1. any negatives will be somebody else's problem (whether the
> > incubator's or apache's) to sort out. perhaps this misalignment of power and
> > effect may prove not to be too healthy in the long run.
On 12/22/05, Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you mean the incubator PMC or the project PMCs?
ATM the sponsoring pmc votes and then the incubator pmc and the
mentors do the work :)
> I do think that there is much at stake also for the project PMCs....
> If the projects they bring in don't work out, this will also be a
> problem for the project community.
how much that is true probably depends on the particular pmc in
question. problems with TLPs are ASF problems.
if it were generally true that every pmc cared so much about every
podling, then i suspect that fewer people would be worried. ATM though
(unlike most ASF votes) each +1 is only a recommendation rather than
an active promise to help. it's committing someone else's time and
reputation...
- robert
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Martin Marinschek <ma...@gmail.com>.
Do you mean the incubator PMC or the project PMCs?
I do think that there is much at stake also for the project PMCs....
If the projects they bring in don't work out, this will also be a
problem for the project community.
regards,
Martin
On 12/22/05, robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/22/05, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Dec 21, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
> > >> the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
> > >> proposed project, acceptance.
> > >
> > > You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets
> > > that role,
> > > I don't believe that the Incubator should presume that it has that
> > > right.
> > >
> >
> > Quoting the Resolution that created the Incubator:
> >
> > RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC be and hereby is
> > responsible for the acceptance and oversight of new products
> > submitted or proposed to become part of the Foundation; and be
> > it further
> >
> > There is nothing within the Resolution which says, for example,
> > that the sponsor PMC gets first and only vote, etc... That
> > is, instead, a policy which we've (the Incubator) set. It's
> > the Incubator which granted that "power" to the PMCs, and
> > we can certainly, IMO, change our set policies to allow us
> > more control over that which we are charged with in the
> > first place :)
>
>
> the way people vote are a matter of record and so reputations are at stake
> both inside and outside apache. voting for a duff release or contributing to
> a failure of oversight has personal consequences.
>
> i wonder whether one cause of some of the worries is that there is very
> little at stake for the pmc and so very little reason for anyone to ever
> vote -1. any negatives will be somebody else's problem (whether the
> incubator's or apache's) to sort out. perhaps this misalignment of power and
> effect may prove not to be too healthy in the long run.
>
> - robert
>
>
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 12/22/05, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > Jim Jagielski wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
> >> the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
> >> proposed project, acceptance.
> >
> > You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets
> > that role,
> > I don't believe that the Incubator should presume that it has that
> > right.
> >
>
> Quoting the Resolution that created the Incubator:
>
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC be and hereby is
> responsible for the acceptance and oversight of new products
> submitted or proposed to become part of the Foundation; and be
> it further
>
> There is nothing within the Resolution which says, for example,
> that the sponsor PMC gets first and only vote, etc... That
> is, instead, a policy which we've (the Incubator) set. It's
> the Incubator which granted that "power" to the PMCs, and
> we can certainly, IMO, change our set policies to allow us
> more control over that which we are charged with in the
> first place :)
the way people vote are a matter of record and so reputations are at stake
both inside and outside apache. voting for a duff release or contributing to
a failure of oversight has personal consequences.
i wonder whether one cause of some of the worries is that there is very
little at stake for the pmc and so very little reason for anyone to ever
vote -1. any negatives will be somebody else's problem (whether the
incubator's or apache's) to sort out. perhaps this misalignment of power and
effect may prove not to be too healthy in the long run.
- robert
Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@apache.org>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>> Instead, the
>> question is whether it also has the authority (and
>> responsibility) to decide who enters Incubation or not.
>>
>
> FWIW, I have never envisioned a case where the Incubator
> would be at odds with the desires of the PMCs and
> the members. I would see such as thing (denying
> acceptance) as something that would require as
> much reason and rationale as a code-based veto
> would; much more so, in fact.
I can easily see a case where the Incubator is at odds with the
desire of a PMC. That is a good thing, IMO - a good check & balance.
In the event that the Incubator PMC is at odds with the membership or
the general Apache community at large, we have a *huge* problem.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
geirm@apache.org
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> I have never envisioned a case where the Incubator would
> be at odds with the desires of the PMCs and the members.
As Geir noted, I can see the potential for the former, but of the latter,
I would hope not. The Members are the Incubator in many real ways, and the
Incubator exists to directly serve the interests of the ASF Membership.
> I would see such as thing (denying acceptance) as something that
> would require as much reason and rationale as a code-based veto
> would; much more so, in fact.
Are you suggesting that graduation from the Incubator should be vetoable,
i.e., treated as a vote on code rather than treated as policy?
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:55 PM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Instead, the
> question is whether it also has the authority (and
> responsibility) to decide who enters Incubation or not.
>
FWIW, I have never envisioned a case where the Incubator
would be at odds with the desires of the PMCs and
the members. I would see such as thing (denying
acceptance) as something that would require as
much reason and rationale as a code-based veto
would; much more so, in fact.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 1:44 PM, Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
>
> I'm confused. Are you stating that the Incubator PMC does not
> currently have the ultimate authority on who leaves the incubator
> and who does not?
>
Not at all. No one (afaik) denies the fact that the Incubator is
the final arbiter of who graduates or not. Instead, the
question is whether it also has the authority (and
responsibility) to decide who enters Incubation or not.
Deciding who graduates ensures that new projects have the
required IP clearance and community health to (hopefully)
grow and prosper, and to ensure the ASF stays on an
even keel. This is good and worthwhile.
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
> Are you stating that the Incubator PMC does not currently
> have the ultimate authority on who leaves the incubator
> and who does not?
No, that is clearly an authority delegated by the Board exclusively to the
Incubator.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Alan D. Cabrera" <li...@toolazydogs.com>.
On 12/22/2005 10:34 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Dec 22, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> I do understand your point, but as I also understand from the
>> comments of
>> both the current ASF Chairman and his predecessor, the Incubator's
>> authority
>> comes into play when we vote to release from the Incubator, rather
>> than when
>> another PMC charges us to accept a candidate into Incubation.
>> Again, the
>> Board can clarify the intent, and I would welcome that clarification.
>>
>
> The Chairman does not have ultimate authority, and their
> PoV or opinion does not count more or less than others, nor
> does it mean that their interpretation is the rule :)
>
> The idea that PMCs should be able to determine what
> projects are to be folded into the ASF is a good one,
> and one that we've always held to, but it's also the
> one that resulted in the problems with Jakarta
> and the lack of oversight involved with them. So it's
> not the fact that other PMCs should decide what
> gets added in which is the issue, is that we have
> the required checks and balances in place to
> avoid another Jakarta.
>
> Going under the assumption that there "should" be some
> sort of entity which "regulates" the influx of new
> projects within the ASF, I submit that the Incubator
> is the best such entity currently in existence (other
> than the board itself). That's all ;)
I'm confused. Are you stating that the Incubator PMC does not currently
have the ultimate authority on who leaves the incubator and who does not?
Regards,
Alan
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 2:01 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> The Chairman does not have ultimate authority, and their
>> PoV or opinion does not count more or less than others,
>> nor does it mean that their interpretation is the rule :)
>
> Right, but there is clearly a difference of opinion, so which part
> of "the
> Board can clarify the intent, and I would welcome that
> clarification" needs
> further explanation? ;-)
>
None ;)
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> The Chairman does not have ultimate authority, and their
> PoV or opinion does not count more or less than others,
> nor does it mean that their interpretation is the rule :)
Right, but there is clearly a difference of opinion, so which part of "the
Board can clarify the intent, and I would welcome that clarification" needs
further explanation? ;-)
> The idea that PMCs should be able to determine what
> projects are to be folded into the ASF is a good one,
> and one that we've always held to, but it's also the
> one that resulted in the problems with Jakarta
> and the lack of oversight involved with them.
And so on that basis, an interpretation that permits PMCs to submit projects
for Incubation, and still provides for the Incubator PMC to arbitrate on
exit, makes sense.
> it's not the fact that other PMCs should decide what
> gets added in which is the issue, is that we have
> the required checks and balances in place to
> avoid another Jakarta.
Agreed. And that is only one of the concerns that we need to be aware of.
> Going under the assumption that there "should" be some
> sort of entity which "regulates" the influx of new
> projects within the ASF, I submit that the Incubator
> is the best such entity currently in existence (other
> than the board itself). That's all ;)
Agreed, and we are the authority on what leaves the Incubator. And since we
have traditionally held that any ASF Member can join the Incubator PMC, that
provides the ASF Membership with a lot of say in what happens, should they
choose to become active here.
But this still leaves open WHEN that authority comes into play: on entrance
to the Incubator, or on exit.
On the other hand, since exit may include Incubation failure ... hmmm ... I
suppose that the Incubator PMC could vote to fail a project, even if it
can't vote on whether or not to accept it.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 22, 2005, at 12:56 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I do understand your point, but as I also understand from the
> comments of
> both the current ASF Chairman and his predecessor, the Incubator's
> authority
> comes into play when we vote to release from the Incubator, rather
> than when
> another PMC charges us to accept a candidate into Incubation.
> Again, the
> Board can clarify the intent, and I would welcome that clarification.
>
The Chairman does not have ultimate authority, and their
PoV or opinion does not count more or less than others, nor
does it mean that their interpretation is the rule :)
The idea that PMCs should be able to determine what
projects are to be folded into the ASF is a good one,
and one that we've always held to, but it's also the
one that resulted in the problems with Jakarta
and the lack of oversight involved with them. So it's
not the fact that other PMCs should decide what
gets added in which is the issue, is that we have
the required checks and balances in place to
avoid another Jakarta.
Going under the assumption that there "should" be some
sort of entity which "regulates" the influx of new
projects within the ASF, I submit that the Incubator
is the best such entity currently in existence (other
than the board itself). That's all ;)
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>>> I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
>>> the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
>>> proposed project, acceptance.
>>
>> You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets
>> that role, I don't believe that the Incubator should presume that
>> it has that right.
>
> Quoting the Resolution that created the Incubator:
> RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC be and hereby is
> responsible for the acceptance and oversight of new products
> submitted or proposed to become part of the Foundation;
> There is nothing within the Resolution which says, for example,
> that the sponsor PMC gets first and only vote, etc... That
> is, instead, a policy which we've (the Incubator) set. It's
> the Incubator which granted that "power" to the PMCs
I do understand your point, but as I also understand from the comments of
both the current ASF Chairman and his predecessor, the Incubator's authority
comes into play when we vote to release from the Incubator, rather than when
another PMC charges us to accept a candidate into Incubation. Again, the
Board can clarify the intent, and I would welcome that clarification.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 7:46 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>
>> I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
>> the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
>> proposed project, acceptance.
>
> You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets
> that role,
> I don't believe that the Incubator should presume that it has that
> right.
>
Quoting the Resolution that created the Incubator:
RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC be and hereby is
responsible for the acceptance and oversight of new products
submitted or proposed to become part of the Foundation; and be
it further
There is nothing within the Resolution which says, for example,
that the sponsor PMC gets first and only vote, etc... That
is, instead, a policy which we've (the Incubator) set. It's
the Incubator which granted that "power" to the PMCs, and
we can certainly, IMO, change our set policies to allow us
more control over that which we are charged with in the
first place :)
PS: IMO, in response to the actual subject line, I certainly
don't feel that the Incubator is out of control, or
on a certain path for disaster, or anything like that.
I simply think that, knowing the currently growth plan,
some changes may be a Good Idea to *prevent* any
future problems or concerns.
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> I see the Incubator as a gatekeeper almost.
See Roy's comments for an alternative view. As I understand his view, the
gatekeeper role is limited to projects leaving the Incubator, not entering.
> PMCs, in general, don't have an idea of the number of
> podlings within the Incubator, the "load" that the
> Incubator (and Infrastructure) is currently handling,
> etc. They have no need to.
Actually, I disagree. I think that the PMCs should be far more aware of the
overall events within the Foundation, and far less cloistered and parochial.
> I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
> the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
> proposed project, acceptance.
You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets that role,
I don't believe that the Incubator should presume that it has that right.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 12:18 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> There is one thing that I think would be useful in
>> helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
>> in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
>> says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
>> side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
>> by the board, the Incubator should vote.
>
> It was presented to the Incubator PMC that when another PMC has
> voted, we
> don't have that option. I'd like to see a determination from the
> Board if
> that is to change.
>
> I will still say that if another PMC has voted, that unless they also
> provide a Member or Officer to provide oversight (not necessarily
> from that
> PMC), that the request is invalid.
>
I see the Incubator as a gatekeeper almost. PMCs,
in general, don't have an idea of the number of
podlings within the Incubator, the "load" that the
Incubator (and Infrastructure) is currently handling,
etc. They have no need to. I think the Incubator
would best serve the ASF if we/they had the
ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC
approves a proposed project, acceptance.
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On Dec 21, 2005, at 9:18 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>> There is one thing that I think would be useful in
>> helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
>> in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
>> says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
>> side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
>> by the board, the Incubator should vote.
>
> It was presented to the Incubator PMC that when another PMC has
> voted, we
> don't have that option. I'd like to see a determination from the
> Board if
> that is to change.
I'm in favor of such a change.
Ted
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> There is one thing that I think would be useful in
> helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
> in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
> says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
> side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
> by the board, the Incubator should vote.
It was presented to the Incubator PMC that when another PMC has voted, we
don't have that option. I'd like to see a determination from the Board if
that is to change.
I will still say that if another PMC has voted, that unless they also
provide a Member or Officer to provide oversight (not necessarily from that
PMC), that the request is invalid.
--- Noel
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Re: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
There is one thing that I think would be useful in
helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
says "Yes" a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
by the board, the Incubator should vote.
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RE: Is the incubator out of control?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> The merits of the particular proposal aside
We should always be judging the merits of each proposal. Failing to do so
might well be part of the problem.
> I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
> low bar for access to the Apache brand name
And we require disclaimers and clear notice that projects ARE in the
Incubator. Look at how the folks are complaining that we are trying to make
the projects look different by being in the Incubator. They ARE different.
And they MUST be Incubator branded, and follow Incubation rules.
> Unless we are very careful, Incubator will become a much
> larger mess than the Jakarta project
Unlike, Jakarta, the Incubator scales better --- at least in theory ---
since we require at least one Member or Officer to be providing active
oversight of each project, and the Incubator PMC consists of all of those
mentors, plus others. If that fails, we need to review the situation. If
we cannot find a Member or Officer willing to provide that active oversight,
we won't be able to incubate that project. This means that when some other
PMC votes for the ASF to Incubate a project, they must provide such a person
to perform the oversight. Else we will not accept the project. Voting for
us to accept a project, without providing that oversight, would be
irresponsible and won't be accepted.
We should also make sure that our projects understand the importance of
oversight, and notify the Incubator PMC if those providing oversight go
AWOL. The PPMC should be a vital part of Incubation.
And we require quarterly reports from all of our projects to keep track of
what is happening, which addresses Rob's question.
--- Noel
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