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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by Jan Metzner <jm...@apache.org> on 2004/05/09 23:59:20 UTC
Lenya Menu with XUL
Hi lenya developers,
for everyone who is interested, here http://metzner.org/projects/lenya/
you can download a patch for lenya to get a xul lenya menu instead of
the html menu.
ciao jan
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Jan Metzner <jm...@apache.org>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>> Very interesting. IIRC Michi said (I'm still searching for the text I
>> want to cite here) sth. like "it is experienced that customers do not
>> want to install Mozilla in order to operate Lenya". Has that experience
>> changed? Well, I think/know that customers can easily be convinced to
>> install
>> Mozilla. They only need to use Mozilla to operate LEnya and not to view
>> the publication pages served by Lenya.
>>
>> Maybe there is also a plugin for IE to display XUL stuff?
XUL is more than just some buttons, tabs and menus. you can even add
bindings to your own c++ classes. I don't think there's a IE plugin that
can do this stuff. Mozilla can only do this because the whole moz is
written in XUL.
> it is not just IE that does not handle XUL. popular mac browser don't
> either. while i agree that heavy cms users can probably be compelled to
> use mozilla, casual users (maybe your CEO :) probably can't.
Definitively this is a Problem if Lenya depends on XUL.
> that said, we should really figure out whether loading mozilla inside IE
> via active x is a viable option. this would make bxe work in IE :)
sounds very strange :-)
ciao Jan
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> Very interesting. IIRC Michi said (I'm still searching for the text I
> want to cite here) sth. like "it is experienced that customers do not
> want to install Mozilla in order to operate Lenya". Has that experience
> changed?
> Well, I think/know that customers can easily be convinced to install
> Mozilla. They only need to use Mozilla to operate LEnya and not to view
> the publication pages served by Lenya.
>
> Maybe there is also a plugin for IE to display XUL stuff?
>
> An argument for customers not to install Mozilla is: "our basic setup of
> computers only install/contains IE. We do not want to add 'complexity'
> to our setups".
>
> What I want to say here:
>
> I would very appreciate using XUL menus or apps, but I do not like
> maintaining a "normal css or html only" menu and a XUL menu since this
> adds complexity in maintaining Lenya.
it is not just IE that does not handle XUL. popular mac browser don't
either. while i agree that heavy cms users can probably be compelled to
use mozilla, casual users (maybe your CEO :) probably can't.
that said, we should really figure out whether loading mozilla inside IE
via active x is a viable option. this would make bxe work in IE :)
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ma...@rolf-kulemann.com>.
On Sun, 2004-05-09 at 23:59, Jan Metzner wrote:
> Hi lenya developers,
> for everyone who is interested, here http://metzner.org/projects/lenya/
> you can download a patch for lenya to get a xul lenya menu instead of
> the html menu.
Very interesting. IIRC Michi said (I'm still searching for the text I
want to cite here) sth. like "it is experienced that customers do not
want to install Mozilla in order to operate Lenya". Has that experience
changed?
Well, I think/know that customers can easily be convinced to install
Mozilla. They only need to use Mozilla to operate LEnya and not to view
the publication pages served by Lenya.
Maybe there is also a plugin for IE to display XUL stuff?
An argument for customers not to install Mozilla is: "our basic setup of
computers only install/contains IE. We do not want to add 'complexity'
to our setups".
What I want to say here:
I would very appreciate using XUL menus or apps, but I do not like
maintaining a "normal css or html only" menu and a XUL menu since this
adds complexity in maintaining Lenya.
WDYT?
+1 from me to focus on XUL.
--
Rolf Kulemann
"There is inherently no silverbullet" - F.Brooks
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
> If we all agree that this is worth to go for, we should open a bugzilla
> entry to officially schedule this for post 1.2.
i hijacked a very old bug for this
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=19576
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> If we all agree that this is worth to go for, we should open a bugzilla
>> entry to officially schedule this for post 1.2.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> My +1 here.
>>
>>
>
> +1
>
> Michi
>
>
+1
thorsten
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Rolf Kulemann wrote:
>
>
>If we all agree that this is worth to go for, we should open a bugzilla
>entry to officially schedule this for post 1.2.
>
>WDYT?
>
>My +1 here.
>
>
+1
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Rolf Kulemann <ro...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 13:43, Michael Wechner wrote:
> Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
> >
> > I found that:
> > "XSLT Transformation of XUL to HTML
> > Develop an XSLT transformation stylesheet that transforms XUL to HTML.
> > XUL files could then be delivered as XML files with a xul2html.xslt
> > stylesheet reference and a reference to the applicable JavaScript.
> > These could then be viewed in non-mozilla browsers such as Internet
> > Explorer and even old Netscape browsers."
> > http://xulmaker.mozdev.org/roadmap.html
>
>
> I have sent an email to Franklin ...
>
> >
> > So if we want maintain IE and other browser support that would be the
> > way to go. Roku you are right saying that would be one more piece to
> > maintain but IMHO it is worth the extra work ;-)
>
>
> If we replace the Lenya menu markup directly by XUL (plus some
> additional elements and attributes with Lenya namespace) then it
> shouldn't be much more work.
Yes, very good idea. We should keep this in mind...we really should
focus on that approach, imho.
If we all agree that this is worth to go for, we should open a bugzilla
entry to officially schedule this for post 1.2.
WDYT?
My +1 here.
--
Regards,
Rolf Kulemann
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Thorsten Scherler wrote:
>
> I found that:
> "XSLT Transformation of XUL to HTML
> Develop an XSLT transformation stylesheet that transforms XUL to HTML.
> XUL files could then be delivered as XML files with a xul2html.xslt
> stylesheet reference and a reference to the applicable JavaScript.
> These could then be viewed in non-mozilla browsers such as Internet
> Explorer and even old Netscape browsers."
> http://xulmaker.mozdev.org/roadmap.html
I have sent an email to Franklin ...
>
> So if we want maintain IE and other browser support that would be the
> way to go. Roku you are right saying that would be one more piece to
> maintain but IMHO it is worth the extra work ;-)
If we replace the Lenya menu markup directly by XUL (plus some
additional elements and attributes with Lenya namespace) then it
shouldn't be much more work.
Michi
>
> Differents between XUL and XAML ->
> http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2003_10.html
>
> King regards
> Thorsten
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
Hello group,
I think XUL is the way to go!
"IE is arguably good enough for the 95 percent who continue to use it
for basic browsing. But browser-based rich Internet software isn’t
nearly as good as it could be. If you build it, they will come."
http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/03/19/12OPstrategic_1.html
So for me that sounds logical! If we build Lenya as a "browser-based
rich Internet software" people will be using Mozilla. IMHO the
installation of Mozilla is piece of cake that even a CEO can handle
(maybe not all of them). If organization are looking into Lenya CMS than
there are willing to use OS. Mozilla is OS, so no big deal in using that.
I found that:
"XSLT Transformation of XUL to HTML
Develop an XSLT transformation stylesheet that transforms XUL to HTML.
XUL files could then be delivered as XML files with a xul2html.xslt
stylesheet reference and a reference to the applicable JavaScript. These
could then be viewed in non-mozilla browsers such as Internet Explorer
and even old Netscape browsers."
http://xulmaker.mozdev.org/roadmap.html
So if we want maintain IE and other browser support that would be the
way to go. Roku you are right saying that would be one more piece to
maintain but IMHO it is worth the extra work ;-)
Differents between XUL and XAML ->
http://www.webstandards.org/buzz/archive/2003_10.html
King regards
Thorsten
--
Thorsten Scherler
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Re: [OT] Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>> In the case of Mozilla the integration will be very tight, which is what
>> Microsoft would do ;-) The enduser will love it and people will say
>> let's
>> switch to Mozilla again (and Microsoft will have to start their own
>> XUL).
>
>
> they did. it is called XAML.
ah, I didn't know that. I will start reading ;-)
http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/about%20xaml.aspx
Michi
>
>> XUL might not be perfect, but I think it's great and we can learn a
>> lot from it.
>
>
> http://mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=4671 and
>
> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2004-April/msg00008.html
>
> Nat spoke about some developments at Microsoft - the merging of a
> bunch of teams for Avalon/XAML. Now have a single team for web and
> native desktop rendering. GNOME and Mozilla needs to align to counter
> this. One big fear moment was at the recent Microsoft PDC, with Amazon
> demoing their site written using XAML and pretty compelling reasons
> for using it. Nat believes the options are
>
> o Gain market share before Longhorn comes along
> o Clone XAML
> o Develop something new, cross-platform, and
> offering a rich web experience as well as a
> great native integration story, and getting
> the big players involved. With this we have
> a single library - the tarball is the standard. If
> we're interested in a unified solution [GTK+ and XUL],
> how do we mix the two? How do we approach cross
> platform, without slowing down the schedule of each
> project?
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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[OT] Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> In the case of Mozilla the integration will be very tight, which is what
> Microsoft would do ;-) The enduser will love it and people will say let's
> switch to Mozilla again (and Microsoft will have to start their own XUL).
they did. it is called XAML.
> XUL might not be perfect, but I think it's great and we can learn a lot
> from it.
http://mozillazine.org/talkback.html?article=4671 and
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/foundation-list/2004-April/msg00008.html
Nat spoke about some developments at Microsoft - the merging of a bunch
of teams for Avalon/XAML. Now have a single team for web and native
desktop rendering. GNOME and Mozilla needs to align to counter this. One
big fear moment was at the recent Microsoft PDC, with Amazon demoing
their site written using XAML and pretty compelling reasons for using
it. Nat believes the options are
o Gain market share before Longhorn comes along
o Clone XAML
o Develop something new, cross-platform, and
offering a rich web experience as well as a
great native integration story, and getting
the big players involved. With this we have
a single library - the tarball is the standard. If
we're interested in a unified solution [GTK+ and XUL],
how do we mix the two? How do we approach cross
platform, without slowing down the schedule of each
project?
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Alex McLintock wrote:
> :
>
>
> Personally this seems to be to be extra gloss rather than extra
> fnuctionality. I'd prefer the html menus to work perfectly. I cannot
> mandate that my users install Mozilla.
Lenya could autodiscover the client and depending on the client deliver
another
menu.
This doesn't mean Lenya has to maintain more XSLTs but rather that Lenya is
using XUL instead of it's menu markup and uses another XSLT to produce
the HTML+JavaScript for other browsers than Mozilla.
In the case of Mozilla the integration will be very tight, which is what
Microsoft would do ;-) The enduser will love it and people will say let's
switch to Mozilla again (and Microsoft will have to start their own XUL).
XUL might not be perfect, but I think it's great and we can learn a lot
from it.
Michi
>
>
> ----
>
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>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Jan Metzner <jm...@apache.org>.
Alex McLintock wrote:
> Ok, to answer my own question based upon reading subsequent posts.
>
> XUL is the method for creating GUI's in Mozillla. (This much I knew).
right!
> Lenya's menus can be XUL using this patch - but that requires you to use
> Mozilla to edit the site - or possibly Mozilla within IE as an ActiveX
> plugin.
NO,
the patch gives you a XUL Menu if you use Mozilla, otherwise you will
get the normal menu. The look of the XUL menu is the same as the html menu.
>
> Personally this seems to be to be extra gloss rather than extra
> fnuctionality. I'd prefer the html menus to work perfectly. I cannot
> mandate that my users install Mozilla.
This is not a replacement for your html menu - just a smooth menu if you
use mozilla :-)
ciao Jan
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@owal.co.uk>.
:
> Jan Metzner wrote:
>
>> Hi lenya developers,
>> for everyone who is interested, here
>> http://metzner.org/projects/lenya/ you can download a patch for lenya
>> to get a xul lenya menu instead of the html menu.
>
> Alex McLintock wrote
> For the uninitiated this is useful how? (Yes I know I can google, but
> I think a sentence about why you would want to do this would be
> helpful ).
Ok, to answer my own question based upon reading subsequent posts.
XUL is the method for creating GUI's in Mozillla. (This much I knew).
Lenya's menus can be XUL using this patch - but that requires you to use
Mozilla to edit the site - or possibly Mozilla within IE as an ActiveX
plugin.
Personally this seems to be to be extra gloss rather than extra
fnuctionality. I'd prefer the html menus to work perfectly. I cannot
mandate that my users install Mozilla.
----
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Jan Metzner <jm...@apache.org>.
Alex McLintock wrote:
> For the uninitiated this is useful how? (Yes I know I can google, but I
> think a sentence about why you would want to do this would be helpful ).
ok, some facts:
Mozilla is written in XUL + javascript + c++
therefore moz cannot only display html, you can write applications with
this framework.
some visions:
a Lenya XUL Application with an integrated editor like the moz composer
component.
My patch from yesterday is no application, it only implements the lenya
menu in XUL. There's no further functionality - it only shows how XUL
could be used inside the lenya framework.
ciao Jan
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Re: Lenya Menu with XUL
Posted by Alex McLintock <al...@owal.co.uk>.
Jan Metzner wrote:
> Hi lenya developers,
> for everyone who is interested, here
> http://metzner.org/projects/lenya/ you can download a patch for lenya
> to get a xul lenya menu instead of the html menu.
For the uninitiated this is useful how? (Yes I know I can google, but I
think a sentence about why you would want to do this would be helpful ).
Thanks anyway though.
Alex McLintock
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