Speaking of Tcl-US 2011

[Clif Flynt <cl...@cflynt.com>]

It seems to me that there's more web activity now than there's
been in several years.  This might just be because I've got a contract
doing some web-work for a change, but...

In the Tcl arena, we've got:

tclhttpd - old, reliable, stable and obsolete (but I use it).
wub - new, snazzy, up-to-date and fluid (I use this one, too).
rivet - stable, integrated with the most-used server (yeah, I use this one).
?others? - I probably missed a dozen or two that I don't use.

Would it be reasonable to do a compare-and-contrast panel at the Tcl
conference?  Would anyone be willing to step up and defend their turf?

FWIW:

I use tclhttpd when I've got a fairly simple task that doesn't
need anything fancy.  I used tclhttpd to set up sample exams for my students
when I taught Tcl at EMU - a separate tclhttpd (and port) for each exam,
was trivial.

I use wub for the Tcl Community Association pages mostly because 
the pages are co-hosted with the wiki.tcl.tk, and that's wub.  It's nice
in that it supports lots of new stuff.  Less nice because it changes
and grows.

I'm using rivet for a commercial task because Apache is solid and
nobody questions using it.  Rivet isn't moribund like Tclhttpd, but
it's not so fluid that I worry about my code breaking with the next
release.

  Happy Tcl'ing,
  Clif

-- 
... Clif Flynt ... http://www.cwflynt.com ... clif@cflynt.com ...
.. Tcl/Tk: A Developer's Guide (2nd edition) - Morgan Kauffman ..
.... 18'th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference:  2011, Manassas, VA USA ....
.............  http://www.tcl.tk/community/tcl2010/  ............







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Re: Speaking of Tcl-US 2011

[Massimo Manghi <ma...@unipr.it>]

On 01/27/2011 05:56 PM, Damon Courtney wrote:
> On Jan 27, 2011, at 9:12 AM, Clif Flynt wrote:
>
>    
>> It seems to me that there's more web activity now than there's
>> been in several years.  This might just be because I've got a contract
>> doing some web-work for a change, but...
>>
>> In the Tcl arena, we've got:
>>
>> tclhttpd - old, reliable, stable and obsolete (but I use it).
>> wub - new, snazzy, up-to-date and fluid (I use this one, too).
>> rivet - stable, integrated with the most-used server (yeah, I use this one).
>> ?others? - I probably missed a dozen or two that I don't use.
>>
>> Would it be reasonable to do a compare-and-contrast panel at the Tcl
>> conference?  Would anyone be willing to step up and defend their turf?
>>      
> I'm hoping to go this year and drag Karl along.  He's quite a busy guy though, so I don't know if he can leave his commercial endeavors for 3 days and do something academic. 0-]  If I can make it this year, I'd be happy to sit in on a panel as Rivet rep.
>
>    

If you guys get together at Tcl-US 2011 I would like to be in the party, 
maybe sitting in the rear seat, but I want to be there nonetheless. I 
won't miss the chance to be involved in the "Rivet conspiracy to rule 
the web" ;-)

  -- Massimo


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Re: Speaking of Tcl-US 2011

[Karl Lehenbauer <ka...@gmail.com>]

On 1/27/11 10:56 AM, "Damon Courtney" <da...@tclhome.com> wrote:

>
>On Jan 27, 2011, at 9:12 AM, Clif Flynt wrote:
>
>> 
>> Would it be reasonable to do a compare-and-contrast panel at the Tcl
>> conference?  Would anyone be willing to step up and defend their turf?
>
>I'm hoping to go this year and drag Karl along.  He's quite a busy guy
>though, so I don't know if he can leave his commercial endeavors for 3
>days and do something academic. 0-]  If I can make it this year, I'd be
>happy to sit in on a panel as Rivet rep.

I am quite interested.  In fact I think there are only about two broken
things in Tcl that if they were fixed it would be strong for many years to
come.  (And it's not coroutines and tail recursion.)  I would like to come
try to cause something around that.

>I use Rivet for the big projects.  I like having Apache there where it
>really counts.  I know it will get the job done and that despite problems
>with my Tcl or maybe even problems in Rivet, Apache will run like a champ
>under tremendous load and never let me down.  As for Rivet itself, the
>nice thing about it is that it's pretty small when you look at it.

Yeah, Tcl / PostgreSQL / Rivet / Apache is industrial-strength.  No doubt
about it.  Add varnish in front of your Apache server and your capacity
for serving pages goes way up (things that can be cached such as images,
pages to non-logged-in users, etc, can be served repeated by varnish with
no heavyweight Rivet-enabled, database-enabled Apache backend involvement.
 Then hook up with a content delivery network and start generating URLs to
them referencing your cached content.  Now you can do millions of pages a
day.  Get a load balancer and start adding webservers.  Cluster your
database with Slony (and soon, native PostgreSQL 9) and start adding
database servers.  It scales.

That would probably be my paper... Building and running a Top 1000 Website
using Tcl


>With all the work Massimo has done on the builds, Rivet compiles with
>ease now.  The same could not be said of previous versions.  And, because
>it's built on top of Tcl, you have powerful packages available for just
>about everything you need.  Whenever I compile PHP, I always have to
>figure out which of the 1000 --enable-X options to enable to get the
>support I need built into the module.

Massimo has made a huge difference.  M



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Re: Speaking of Tcl-US 2011

[Damon Courtney <da...@tclhome.com>]

On Jan 27, 2011, at 9:12 AM, Clif Flynt wrote:

> It seems to me that there's more web activity now than there's
> been in several years.  This might just be because I've got a contract
> doing some web-work for a change, but...
> 
> In the Tcl arena, we've got:
> 
> tclhttpd - old, reliable, stable and obsolete (but I use it).
> wub - new, snazzy, up-to-date and fluid (I use this one, too).
> rivet - stable, integrated with the most-used server (yeah, I use this one).
> ?others? - I probably missed a dozen or two that I don't use.
> 
> Would it be reasonable to do a compare-and-contrast panel at the Tcl
> conference?  Would anyone be willing to step up and defend their turf?

I'm hoping to go this year and drag Karl along.  He's quite a busy guy though, so I don't know if he can leave his commercial endeavors for 3 days and do something academic. 0-]  If I can make it this year, I'd be happy to sit in on a panel as Rivet rep.

> I use tclhttpd when I've got a fairly simple task that doesn't
> need anything fancy.  I used tclhttpd to set up sample exams for my students
> when I taught Tcl at EMU - a separate tclhttpd (and port) for each exam,
> was trivial.
> 
> I use wub for the Tcl Community Association pages mostly because 
> the pages are co-hosted with the wiki.tcl.tk, and that's wub.  It's nice
> in that it supports lots of new stuff.  Less nice because it changes
> and grows.
> 
> I'm using rivet for a commercial task because Apache is solid and
> nobody questions using it.  Rivet isn't moribund like Tclhttpd, but
> it's not so fluid that I worry about my code breaking with the next
> release.

I use tclhttpd in the same way.  Particularly when I'm going to create a simple, embedded application or something.  I can run it anywhere I can run Tcl with no installation or fuss, and that's a huge plus.

I've never used Wub just because I already had tclhttpd and Apache / Rivet.  I didn't really feel the need to throw in another technology when my needs were served by two others.

I use Rivet for the big projects.  I like having Apache there where it really counts.  I know it will get the job done and that despite problems with my Tcl or maybe even problems in Rivet, Apache will run like a champ under tremendous load and never let me down.  As for Rivet itself, the nice thing about it is that it's pretty small when you look at it.

Rivet is really just doing some parsing and then eval'ing of objects within an interpreter in the Apache process.  With every major upgrade of Tcl I've been able to just compile Rivet and go.  So Rivet has grown with Tcl.  This last project I started, I compiled the 8.6 HEAD with TclOO and TDBC and plugged it in, and I was using TDBC to talk to MySQL in minutes.

With all the work Massimo has done on the builds, Rivet compiles with ease now.  The same could not be said of previous versions.  And, because it's built on top of Tcl, you have powerful packages available for just about everything you need.  Whenever I compile PHP, I always have to figure out which of the 1000 --enable-X options to enable to get the support I need built into the module.

D
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