[DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August
2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times
succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and
through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch -
25, all per today) and several presentations have been made
(ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a
podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles
and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One
action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a
point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator
voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the
proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>]

I too believe in the technology so much that in an unlikely absence of Esgyn, I would continue to contribute, certain that a company will jump on the opportunity to take the relay.
Regards, 
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Broeder [mailto:sean.broeder@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:03 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Speaking for myself, I have confidence in the technology, and I would still contribute in absence of Esgyn.

Regards,
Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Stack
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 4:55 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:54 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ...
> It is more a question of whether the PPMC is diverse enough to be 
> regarded as independent of any outside affiliation (my experiences is 
> that this is one of the major questions popping at graduation 
> discussions in general @ incubator). And I believe it is as there are 
> persons with affiliations with Esgyn, Hewlett Packard, and other companies.
>

Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn, would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question comes up on the general incubator list.

Thanks,
St.Ack

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Sean Broeder <se...@esgyn.com>]

Speaking for myself, I have confidence in the technology, and I would still contribute in absence of Esgyn.

Regards,
Sean

-----Original Message-----
From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Stack
Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 4:55 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:54 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ...
> It is more a question of whether the PPMC is diverse enough to be regarded
> as independent of any outside affiliation (my experiences is that this is
> one of the major questions popping at graduation discussions in general @
> incubator). And I believe it is as there are persons with affiliations with
> Esgyn, Hewlett Packard, and other companies.
>

Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question comes
up on the general incubator list.

Thanks,
St.Ack

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[RuoYu Zuo <jo...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Well, I shall say, long time no see, although I've actually been paying
attention on this thread for a while.
As many of you know, I don't work for Esgyn anymore, neither HP. I stop
contributing to Trafodion for 2 months, now I am busy and focusing on other
startup business, but I still concern about this project, I still care
about how and where it is going. I've worked on it for about 6 years since
I was in HP, and I love it, I learnt a lot from it. I still consider myself
a contributor, and I'm willingly to keep contributing in the future. Thus
I'd like to share my opinions about graduation, although they might
be negligible, and inappropriate opinions.

I think graduation is a wrenching topic for everyone's concern. Every coin
has two sides, and one point of the good side is, the graduation will give
more confident to the community, to Esgyn, and anyone else concerns this
project. Definitely it will grab more attentions from users, companies,
organizations, there will be more trials, opportunities, and it will
attract more contributors to join us, thus the project will grow faster,
healthier. This is from the perspective of the Trafodion Project.

But in a meanwhile, there's a problem from the company's perspective, which
is the fame will make some of us to be conceited, and that, will make us
become lazy and growing denial of facing problems, weaknesses, and
criticisms. I say so, be cause I saw it happened, I experienced it, and
this is part of the reason I left the China team, sorry, no offense, but
that's the truth. I believe it will happen again. I'm raising this issue
because this project is lead by the company, and this issue may introduce
some influences to the project. I honestly care about this project and I
hope it will have a great future. This is a great project with really cool
technologies, and there are lots of great people both in Shanghai and US,
they are my mentors, models, and friends. Actually most of the members,
contributors are great people, but the conceit should be realized and
faced, thus we will be well aware of where we will going, and what we are
facing.

Anyway, these are just my negligible and perhaps inappropriate opinions. I
like to vote for waiting for another few months.

Thanks& Regards
Ruoyu



——
Life’s a journey not a destination, don’t just tell what tomorrow brings.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:29 PM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid by my
> company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as it is still
> there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 years and still
> love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always believe the
> spirit of open source is to share best technology to benefit the whole
> world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted very naturally.  I am
> very curious why such a good thing as Trafodion not successfully draw
> wide-spread attention. One thing we heard was: it is too hard to try it
> out, and we already have greatly improved it, but the very first interested
> people don't have much patience and try it again I guess. So we need
> investment in advertising maybe :-)
>
> And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion in
> China, and more and more customers.
> If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion is a
> very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group of people
> and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So for me, I think
> it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice us, we , at least myself,
> are not very good at Apache way, not sure what to do instead of coding day
> and night :-)
>
> It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for wait for
> another few months to see if we can attract more people from other
> organizations, since I think we still have room to improve how to attract
> other people's attention.
> But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some people
> spending a few months' study and can contribute key features to some other
> projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience. But
> there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find more tasks
> for beginners.
>
> thanks,
> Ming
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack has
> been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one acting as he
> did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could call me (an informal)
> one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC Member)
> one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
>
> Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> improvements) is healthy.
>
> Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the primary
> go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have a page in our
> wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have gone
> the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> implementation organisations to show that there is more than just community
> support.
> Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), more
> supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party experiences
> shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
>
> When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love to see
> more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
>
> But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask itself
> if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough diversity, but
> also to strengthen itself against inactive participants (contributors come
> and go). And it must have an agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at least
> the first PMC Chair) will be.
> The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, as
> anyone committed to the project (building the community, promoting the
> project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential PPMC
> Member..
>
> I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. We just
> have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel confident
> that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
>
> Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some minor
> aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait until
> we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers towards
> retirement.
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and
> > say
> > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right
> > questions
> > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know
> > about)!
> > >
> > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should
> wait a
> > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will
> get
> > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some
> more
> > > active users over the next year or so.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > >
> > >
> > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> >
> > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
> > list on incubator?
> >
> > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
> > mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this;
> good
> > to have variety of opinion.
> >
> > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> >
> > S
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hans
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> > Stack
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > James,
> > > >
> > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the
> > last
> > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk
> > as
> > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I
> guess
> > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> > > Cloudera,
> > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other
> > reason
> > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as
> an
> > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not
> had
> > as
> > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity
> > and
> > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> > > enough
> > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open
> > source
> > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC,
> > etc.
> > > >
> > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in
> > the
> > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> > > most
> > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> > > developers
> > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have
> in
> > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> > > >
> > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and
> open
> > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the
> company
> > > of
> > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious
> path
> > to
> > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that
> they
> > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> > > crazy
> > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > incredible
> > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds
> > of
> > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> technology,
> > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> compared
> > > to
> > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying
> with
> > > the
> > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in
> > the
> > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing
> > support
> > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.
> > Maybe
> > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> > > Trafodion
> > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make
> it
> > > > ready for it.
> > > >
> > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects
> > are
> > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> > > job.
> > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project
> and
> > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > accomplished
> > > to
> > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> decision
> > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure
> how
> > > the
> > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > >
> > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my
> > own
> > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > >
> > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be
> in
> > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd
> > consider
> > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> incubator
> > is
> > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these
> > times).
> > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time
> > around?
> > > (James, you interested?)
> > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just
> > provide
> > > guidance.
> > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one
> > (Apache),
> > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > resources.
> > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask
> why
> > > bother.
> > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when
> > you
> > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> > > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is
> > dodgy
> > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > >
> > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but
> as
> > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is
> > diverse
> > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While
> > we
> > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members,
> > how
> > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any
> > users
> > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Rohit
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> > > Esgyn,
> > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> question
> > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Carol Pearson <ca...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I'm definitely in favor of trying for TLP. I think we are are ready to
graduate.  If the IPMC doesn't feel the same, the discussion itself will be
very valuable for helping us Trafodion fans understand where we need to
focus our energy to address real concerns, rather than theories.

James, I found your comments very helpful.  We need to clearly show people
how they can get involved, how they can help.  I'm thinking of
starter-spots like:

  * User-defined functions or database elements are one way
  * Connectors/instructions/hints for other Apache product interactions
  * Admin scripts
  * Demo queries and test databases showing performance or features
  * Experimental implementations and results/lessons
  * Web pages and documentation
  * Starter Jiras - we should identify some on the website or wiki that
would be good places for someone new to practice building and testing while
making simple code changes.
  * Your contribution here

These are all places that are accessible for folks to contribute if we can
help them get started, and they are opportunities for two-way
interactions.  While there's a lot of code here that seems "done", there
are lots of places where folks can help move forward.

Count me in the "Stack has been awesome at shepherding Trafodion as we've
learned this process!" camp.

-Carol P.



---------------------------------------------------------------
Email:    carol.pearson234@gmail.com
Twitter:  @CarolP222
---------------------------------------------------------------

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 6:01 PM, James Taylor <ja...@apache.org>
wrote:

> FWIW, in my experience with Phoenix, we didn't see an influx of
> contributors after we became a TLP, so I don't think that'll solve that
> issue. The main positive change we saw was that releases became easier to
> do as a TLP.
>
> I think the main reasons Phoenix got contributors were:
> - Gaps in functionality. We open sourced very early with lots of product
> gaps that needed to be filled and a small dev team that couldn't possibly
> implement all of them.
> - Accessible, relatively simple Java code base. It's all relative here, as
> there's nothing exactly simple about a SQL engine, but people could wrap
> their head around it without getting lost. Some aspects that I think helped
> were: Java-based, ability to run end-to-end tests in Eclipse through JUnit,
> and easy installation.
> - Integration with other projects in ecosystem. This was a big area of
> contribution - from Pig integration, to Spark integration, then on to Hive
> integration and Flume and MR integration. Also, relying on other Apache
> project for functionality brings in contributors. For example, Tephra for
> transactions and now Calcite for planning.
> - Mentoring any/all contributors. This was a big effort, and sometimes all
> for naut, but if you find that one person out of ten that becomes a
> consistent contributor it becomes worth it.
> - Need. As companies start to use the product, they find bugs that the
> community may not have the bandwidth (or the need) to fix. So they start to
> contribute fixes.
>
> So perhaps some of the issues with Traphodian is that the product is too
> mature, has no need for integration (as it's already complete? If not, have
> you approached other communities to help with desired integrations?),  has
> a big C++ codebase that may be difficult to wrap your head around (have you
> identified good starting point for contributors? We tended to ask folks to
> start by writing a new built-in function, for example), and doesn't have
> enough bugs (smile) (or maybe Esgyn engineers are able to fix them all
> themselves, so there's not a big need for contributors).
>
> Just a few ideas. HTH.
>
>     James
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:
>
> > We are in a catch-22
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Selva Govindarajan [mailto:selva.govindarajan@esgyn.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:50 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > I completely agree with Steve's point. Making Trafodion a TLP project
> > would help to attract contributors outside of Esgyn to contribute and
> > improve its diversity. In my opinion Trafodion, due to its complexity to
> > provide a complete database engine stack is really in a chicken and egg
> > situation for it to become more diverse to graduate. The graduation to
> TLP
> > can help it to break the ice with the community and become more diverse.
> >
> > Selva
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Qifan Chen [mailto:qifan.chen@esgyn.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:37 AM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the
> > technology in production. The adoption of the technology probably will
> > accelerate after the graduation, as it will be formally backed by Hadoop.
> >
> > The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the
> > storage engine. As it acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite
> > possible that new improvement and innovations etc will continue with both
> > Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.
> > Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the
> > community.  I strongly believe the same will happen with other Hadoop
> > technologies, such as ORC.
> >
> > Thanks --Qifan
> > ________________________________
> > From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > +1 on all this.
> > On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have
> > currently accepted to disclose their names.
> > Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
> > I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense
> > on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers,
> > enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
> > Eric
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this
> > without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that
> > other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not
> > get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on
> > the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in
> production.
> >
> > I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in
> > the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2)
> > Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we
> > are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then,
> > yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is
> > merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.
> >
> > --Steve
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
> > > definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache
> > > world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you
> > > to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
> > >
> > > I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had
> > > a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the
> > > diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that
> > > shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific
> > > steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project
> > > does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I
> > > would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated
> > > projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would
> > > need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a
> > > single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At
> > > present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do
> > > have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They
> > > contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in
> > > terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
> > > "active" committer is defined.
> > >
> > > I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
> > > Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
> > > chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I
> > > think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not
> > > be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be
> > > it as a podling or as a TLP.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Suresh
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi, all,
> > > >
> > > > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > > > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid
> > > > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as
> > > > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8
> > > > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > > > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> > > > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always
> > > > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to
> > > > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted
> > > > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as
> > > > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we
> > > > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly
> > > > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much
> > > > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in
> > > > advertising maybe :-)
> > > >
> > > > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> > > > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion
> > > > in China, and more and more customers.
> > > > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion
> > > > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group
> > > > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So
> > > > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice
> > > > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure
> > > > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> > > >
> > > > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for
> > > > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people
> > > > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to
> > > > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > > > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some
> > > > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features
> > > > to some
> > > other
> > > > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > > > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find
> > > > more
> > > tasks
> > > > for beginners.
> > > >
> > > > thanks,
> > > > Ming
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack
> > > > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one
> > > > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could
> > > > call me (an
> > > informal)
> > > > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> > > Member)
> > > > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> > > >
> > > > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > > > improvements) is healthy.
> > > >
> > > > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the
> > > > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have
> > > > a page in
> > > our
> > > > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> > > > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have
> > > > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> > > > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> > > community
> > > > support.
> > > > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations),
> > > > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> > > > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party
> > > > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a
> > chicken-egg situation.
> > > >
> > > > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> > > > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love
> > > > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> > > >
> > > > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask
> > > > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough
> > > > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive
> > > > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an
> > > > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> > > least
> > > > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > > > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors,
> > > > as anyone committed to the project (building the community,
> > > > promoting the
> > > > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> > > PPMC
> > > > Member..
> > > >
> > > > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> > > > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > > > We
> > > just
> > > > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel
> > > > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to
> > mitigate those.
> > > >
> > > > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> > > minor
> > > > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> > > > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait
> > > > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers
> > > > towards retirement.
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Pierre Smits
> > > >
> > > > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > > OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > >
> > > > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller
> > > > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack,
> > > > > > you
> > > call
> > > > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with
> > > > > > that and
> > > > > say
> > > > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> > > granting
> > > > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the
> > > > > > right
> > > > > questions
> > > > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't
> > > > > > know
> > > > > about)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we
> > > > > > should
> > > > wait a
> > > > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we
> > > > > > will
> > > > get
> > > > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and
> > > > > > some
> > > > more
> > > > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think
> different!
> > > > >
> > > > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the
> > > > > general list on incubator?
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get
> > > > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion
> > > > > like this;
> > > > good
> > > > > to have variety of opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > > > >
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hans
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf
> > > > > > Of
> > > > > Stack
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain
> > > > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > James,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to
> > > > > > > Stack the
> > > > > last
> > > > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the
> > > > > > > same risk
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > > > But I
> > > > guess
> > > > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the
> > > > > > > other
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with
> > > > > > > Kudu, as
> > > > an
> > > > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have
> > > > > > > not
> > > > had
> > > > > as
> > > > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> > > complexity
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is
> > > > > > > large
> > > > > > enough
> > > > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other
> > > > > > > open
> > > > > source
> > > > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with
> > > > > > > HBase,
> > > ORC,
> > > > > etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> > > presence in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> > > source
> > > > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > > > Plus,
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to
> > > > > > > new
> > > > > > developers
> > > > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we
> > > > > > > do
> > > have
> > > > in
> > > > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> > > community.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source
> > > > > > > and
> > > > open
> > > > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > company
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no
> > > > > > > obvious
> > > > path
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that
> > > > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations
> > > > > > > of developers that
> > > > they
> > > > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it
> > > > > > > would
> > > be
> > > > > > crazy
> > > > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > > > incredible
> > > > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of
> > > > > > > hundreds
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > > > technology,
> > > > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > > > compared
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully
> > > > > > > complying
> > > > with
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to
> > > > > > > achieve in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical
> > > > > > > Processing
> > > > > support
> > > > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> > > spectrum.
> > > > > Maybe
> > > > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > Trafodion
> > > > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to
> > > > > > > make
> > > > it
> > > > > > > ready for it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all
> > > > > > > projects
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done
> > > > > > > a
> > > great
> > > > > > job.
> > > > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the
> > > > > > > project
> > > > and
> > > > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > > > accomplished
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > > > decision
> > > > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go
> > > > > > > figure
> > > > how
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said
> > > > > > > out of my
> > > > > own
> > > > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but
> > > > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they
> > should.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going
> > > > > > to be
> > > > in
> > > > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though
> > > > > > I'd
> > > > > consider
> > > > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > > > incubator
> > > > > is
> > > > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself
> > > > > > these
> > > > > times).
> > > > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this
> > > > > > time
> > > > > around?
> > > > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they
> > > > > > just
> > > > > provide
> > > > > > guidance.
> > > > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external
> > > > > > one
> > > > > (Apache),
> > > > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > > > resources.
> > > > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would
> > > > > > ask
> > > > why
> > > > > > bother.
> > > > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be
> > > > > > present when
> > > > > you
> > > > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful
> > > > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded
> > > > > > upon tech that is
> > > > > dodgy
> > > > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to
> > > > > > graduate but
> > > > as
> > > > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC
> > > > > > is
> > > > > diverse
> > > > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> > > While
> > > > > we
> > > > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> > > members,
> > > > > how
> > > > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we
> > > > > > have
> > > any
> > > > > users
> > > > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > S
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rohit
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there
> > > > > > > > were no
> > > > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > > > question
> > > > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[James Taylor <ja...@apache.org>]

FWIW, in my experience with Phoenix, we didn't see an influx of
contributors after we became a TLP, so I don't think that'll solve that
issue. The main positive change we saw was that releases became easier to
do as a TLP.

I think the main reasons Phoenix got contributors were:
- Gaps in functionality. We open sourced very early with lots of product
gaps that needed to be filled and a small dev team that couldn't possibly
implement all of them.
- Accessible, relatively simple Java code base. It's all relative here, as
there's nothing exactly simple about a SQL engine, but people could wrap
their head around it without getting lost. Some aspects that I think helped
were: Java-based, ability to run end-to-end tests in Eclipse through JUnit,
and easy installation.
- Integration with other projects in ecosystem. This was a big area of
contribution - from Pig integration, to Spark integration, then on to Hive
integration and Flume and MR integration. Also, relying on other Apache
project for functionality brings in contributors. For example, Tephra for
transactions and now Calcite for planning.
- Mentoring any/all contributors. This was a big effort, and sometimes all
for naut, but if you find that one person out of ten that becomes a
consistent contributor it becomes worth it.
- Need. As companies start to use the product, they find bugs that the
community may not have the bandwidth (or the need) to fix. So they start to
contribute fixes.

So perhaps some of the issues with Traphodian is that the product is too
mature, has no need for integration (as it's already complete? If not, have
you approached other communities to help with desired integrations?),  has
a big C++ codebase that may be difficult to wrap your head around (have you
identified good starting point for contributors? We tended to ask folks to
start by writing a new built-in function, for example), and doesn't have
enough bugs (smile) (or maybe Esgyn engineers are able to fix them all
themselves, so there's not a big need for contributors).

Just a few ideas. HTH.

    James

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:59 AM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:

> We are in a catch-22
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Selva Govindarajan [mailto:selva.govindarajan@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:50 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I completely agree with Steve's point. Making Trafodion a TLP project
> would help to attract contributors outside of Esgyn to contribute and
> improve its diversity. In my opinion Trafodion, due to its complexity to
> provide a complete database engine stack is really in a chicken and egg
> situation for it to become more diverse to graduate. The graduation to TLP
> can help it to break the ice with the community and become more diverse.
>
> Selva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Qifan Chen [mailto:qifan.chen@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:37 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the
> technology in production. The adoption of the technology probably will
> accelerate after the graduation, as it will be formally backed by Hadoop.
>
> The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the
> storage engine. As it acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite
> possible that new improvement and innovations etc will continue with both
> Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.
> Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the
> community.  I strongly believe the same will happen with other Hadoop
> technologies, such as ORC.
>
> Thanks --Qifan
> ________________________________
> From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> +1 on all this.
> On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have
> currently accepted to disclose their names.
> Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
> I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense
> on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers,
> enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
> Eric
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this
> without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that
> other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not
> get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on
> the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production.
>
> I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in
> the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2)
> Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we
> are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then,
> yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is
> merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.
>
> --Steve
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
> > definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache
> > world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you
> > to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
> >
> > I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had
> > a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the
> > diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that
> > shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific
> > steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project
> > does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I
> > would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated
> > projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would
> > need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a
> > single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At
> > present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do
> > have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They
> > contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in
> > terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
> > "active" committer is defined.
> >
> > I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
> > Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
> > chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I
> > think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not
> > be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be
> > it as a podling or as a TLP.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Suresh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi, all,
> > >
> > > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid
> > > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as
> > > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8
> > > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> > > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always
> > > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to
> > > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted
> > > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as
> > > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we
> > > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly
> > > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much
> > > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in
> > > advertising maybe :-)
> > >
> > > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> > > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion
> > > in China, and more and more customers.
> > > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion
> > > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group
> > > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So
> > > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice
> > > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure
> > > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> > >
> > > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for
> > > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people
> > > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to
> > > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some
> > > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features
> > > to some
> > other
> > > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find
> > > more
> > tasks
> > > for beginners.
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > Ming
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack
> > > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one
> > > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could
> > > call me (an
> > informal)
> > > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> > Member)
> > > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> > >
> > > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > > improvements) is healthy.
> > >
> > > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the
> > > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have
> > > a page in
> > our
> > > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> > > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have
> > > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> > > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> > community
> > > support.
> > > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations),
> > > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> > > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party
> > > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a
> chicken-egg situation.
> > >
> > > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> > > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love
> > > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> > >
> > > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask
> > > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough
> > > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive
> > > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an
> > > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> > least
> > > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors,
> > > as anyone committed to the project (building the community,
> > > promoting the
> > > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> > PPMC
> > > Member..
> > >
> > > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> > > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > > We
> > just
> > > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel
> > > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to
> mitigate those.
> > >
> > > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> > minor
> > > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> > > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait
> > > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers
> > > towards retirement.
> > >
> > > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > OFBiz based solutions & services
> > >
> > > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller
> > > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack,
> > > > > you
> > call
> > > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with
> > > > > that and
> > > > say
> > > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> > granting
> > > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the
> > > > > right
> > > > questions
> > > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't
> > > > > know
> > > > about)!
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we
> > > > > should
> > > wait a
> > > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we
> > > > > will
> > > get
> > > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and
> > > > > some
> > > more
> > > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > > >
> > > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the
> > > > general list on incubator?
> > > >
> > > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get
> > > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion
> > > > like this;
> > > good
> > > > to have variety of opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > > >
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hans
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf
> > > > > Of
> > > > Stack
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain
> > > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > James,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to
> > > > > > Stack the
> > > > last
> > > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the
> > > > > > same risk
> > > > as
> > > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > > But I
> > > guess
> > > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such
> > > > > > as
> > > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the
> > > > > > other
> > > > reason
> > > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with
> > > > > > Kudu, as
> > > an
> > > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have
> > > > > > not
> > > had
> > > > as
> > > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> > complexity
> > > > and
> > > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is
> > > > > > large
> > > > > enough
> > > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other
> > > > > > open
> > > > source
> > > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with
> > > > > > HBase,
> > ORC,
> > > > etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> > presence in
> > > > the
> > > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> > source
> > > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > > Plus,
> > > > > most
> > > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to
> > > > > > new
> > > > > developers
> > > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we
> > > > > > do
> > have
> > > in
> > > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> > community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source
> > > > > > and
> > > open
> > > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to
> > > > > > the
> > > company
> > > > > of
> > > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no
> > > > > > obvious
> > > path
> > > > to
> > > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that
> > > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations
> > > > > > of developers that
> > > they
> > > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it
> > > > > > would
> > be
> > > > > crazy
> > > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > > incredible
> > > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of
> > > > > > hundreds
> > > > of
> > > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > > technology,
> > > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > > compared
> > > > > to
> > > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully
> > > > > > complying
> > > with
> > > > > the
> > > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to
> > > > > > achieve in
> > > > the
> > > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical
> > > > > > Processing
> > > > support
> > > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> > spectrum.
> > > > Maybe
> > > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine
> > > > > > like
> > > > > Trafodion
> > > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to
> > > > > > make
> > > it
> > > > > > ready for it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all
> > > > > > projects
> > > > are
> > > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done
> > > > > > a
> > great
> > > > > job.
> > > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the
> > > > > > project
> > > and
> > > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > > accomplished
> > > > > to
> > > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > > decision
> > > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go
> > > > > > figure
> > > how
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said
> > > > > > out of my
> > > > own
> > > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but
> > > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they
> should.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > > >
> > > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going
> > > > > to be
> > > in
> > > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though
> > > > > I'd
> > > > consider
> > > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > > incubator
> > > > is
> > > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself
> > > > > these
> > > > times).
> > > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this
> > > > > time
> > > > around?
> > > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they
> > > > > just
> > > > provide
> > > > > guidance.
> > > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external
> > > > > one
> > > > (Apache),
> > > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > > resources.
> > > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would
> > > > > ask
> > > why
> > > > > bother.
> > > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be
> > > > > present when
> > > > you
> > > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful
> > > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded
> > > > > upon tech that is
> > > > dodgy
> > > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > > >
> > > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to
> > > > > graduate but
> > > as
> > > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC
> > > > > is
> > > > diverse
> > > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> > While
> > > > we
> > > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> > members,
> > > > how
> > > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we
> > > > > have
> > any
> > > > users
> > > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > S
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rohit
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there
> > > > > > > were no
> > > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > > question
> > > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>]

We are in a catch-22

-----Original Message-----
From: Selva Govindarajan [mailto:selva.govindarajan@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 12:50 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I completely agree with Steve's point. Making Trafodion a TLP project would help to attract contributors outside of Esgyn to contribute and improve its diversity. In my opinion Trafodion, due to its complexity to provide a complete database engine stack is really in a chicken and egg situation for it to become more diverse to graduate. The graduation to TLP can help it to break the ice with the community and become more diverse.

Selva

-----Original Message-----
From: Qifan Chen [mailto:qifan.chen@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:37 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the technology in production. The adoption of the technology probably will accelerate after the graduation, as it will be formally backed by Hadoop.

The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the storage engine. As it acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite possible that new improvement and innovations etc will continue with both Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.  Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the community.  I strongly believe the same will happen with other Hadoop technologies, such as ORC.

Thanks --Qifan
________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

+1 on all this.
On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have currently accepted to disclose their names.
Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers, enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
Eric


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production.

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would 
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache 
> world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you 
> to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
>
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had 
> a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the 
> diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that 
> shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific 
> steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project 
> does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I 
> would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated 
> projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would 
> need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a 
> single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At 
> present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do 
> have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They 
> contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in 
> terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term 
> "active" committer is defined.
>
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to 
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that 
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I 
> think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not 
> be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be 
> it as a podling or as a TLP.
>
> Thanks
> Suresh
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid 
> > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as 
> > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 
> > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID 
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always 
> > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to 
> > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted 
> > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as 
> > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we 
> > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly 
> > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much 
> > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in 
> > advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit 
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion 
> > in China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion 
> > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group 
> > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So 
> > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice 
> > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure 
> > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for 
> > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people 
> > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to 
> > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some 
> > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features 
> > to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find 
> > more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack 
> > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one 
> > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could 
> > call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the 
> > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have 
> > a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or 
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have 
> > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party 
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), 
> > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more 
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party 
> > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their 
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love 
> > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask 
> > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough 
> > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive 
> > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an 
> > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, 
> > as anyone committed to the project (building the community, 
> > promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not 
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel 
> > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are 
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait 
> > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers 
> > towards retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller 
> > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, 
> > > > you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with 
> > > > that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the 
> > > > right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't 
> > > > know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we 
> > > > should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we 
> > > > will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and 
> > > > some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the 
> > > general list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get 
> > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion 
> > > like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf 
> > > > Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain 
> > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to 
> > > > > Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the 
> > > > > same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such 
> > > > > as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the 
> > > > > other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with 
> > > > > Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have 
> > > > > not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is 
> > > > > large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other 
> > > > > open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with 
> > > > > HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to 
> > > > > new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we 
> > > > > do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source 
> > > > > and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to 
> > > > > the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no 
> > > > > obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that 
> > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations 
> > > > > of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it 
> > > > > would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of 
> > > > > hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully 
> > > > > complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to 
> > > > > achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical 
> > > > > Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine 
> > > > > like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to 
> > > > > make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all 
> > > > > projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done 
> > > > > a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the 
> > > > > project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go 
> > > > > figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said 
> > > > > out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but 
> > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going 
> > > > to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though 
> > > > I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself 
> > > > these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this 
> > > > time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they 
> > > > just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external 
> > > > one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would 
> > > > ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be 
> > > > present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful 
> > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded 
> > > > upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to 
> > > > graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC 
> > > > is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we 
> > > > have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there 
> > > > > > were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Selva Govindarajan <se...@esgyn.com>]

I completely agree with Steve's point. Making Trafodion a TLP project would help to attract contributors outside of Esgyn to contribute and improve its diversity. In my opinion Trafodion, due to its complexity to provide a complete database engine stack is really in a chicken and egg situation for it to become more diverse to graduate. The graduation to TLP can help it to break the ice with the community and become more diverse.

Selva

-----Original Message-----
From: Qifan Chen [mailto:qifan.chen@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:37 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the technology in production. The adoption of the technology probably will accelerate after the graduation, as it will be formally backed by Hadoop.

The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the storage engine. As it acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite possible that new improvement and innovations etc will continue with both Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.  Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the community.  I strongly believe the same will happen with other Hadoop technologies, such as ORC.

Thanks --Qifan
________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

+1 on all this.
On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have currently accepted to disclose their names.
Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers, enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
Eric


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production.

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would 
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache 
> world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you 
> to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
>
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had 
> a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the 
> diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that 
> shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific 
> steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project 
> does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I 
> would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated 
> projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would 
> need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a 
> single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At 
> present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do 
> have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They 
> contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in 
> terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term 
> "active" committer is defined.
>
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to 
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that 
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I 
> think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not 
> be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be 
> it as a podling or as a TLP.
>
> Thanks
> Suresh
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid 
> > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as 
> > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 
> > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID 
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always 
> > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to 
> > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted 
> > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as 
> > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we 
> > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly 
> > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much 
> > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in 
> > advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit 
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion 
> > in China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion 
> > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group 
> > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So 
> > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice 
> > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure 
> > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for 
> > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people 
> > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to 
> > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some 
> > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features 
> > to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find 
> > more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack 
> > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one 
> > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could 
> > call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the 
> > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have 
> > a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or 
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have 
> > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party 
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), 
> > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more 
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party 
> > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their 
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love 
> > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask 
> > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough 
> > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive 
> > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an 
> > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, 
> > as anyone committed to the project (building the community, 
> > promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not 
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel 
> > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are 
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait 
> > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers 
> > towards retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller 
> > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, 
> > > > you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with 
> > > > that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the 
> > > > right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't 
> > > > know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we 
> > > > should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we 
> > > > will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and 
> > > > some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the 
> > > general list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get 
> > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion 
> > > like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf 
> > > > Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain 
> > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to 
> > > > > Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the 
> > > > > same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such 
> > > > > as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the 
> > > > > other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with 
> > > > > Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have 
> > > > > not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is 
> > > > > large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other 
> > > > > open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with 
> > > > > HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to 
> > > > > new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we 
> > > > > do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source 
> > > > > and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to 
> > > > > the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no 
> > > > > obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that 
> > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations 
> > > > > of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it 
> > > > > would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of 
> > > > > hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully 
> > > > > complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to 
> > > > > achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical 
> > > > > Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine 
> > > > > like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to 
> > > > > make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all 
> > > > > projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done 
> > > > > a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the 
> > > > > project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go 
> > > > > figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said 
> > > > > out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but 
> > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going 
> > > > to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though 
> > > > I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself 
> > > > these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this 
> > > > time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they 
> > > > just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external 
> > > > one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would 
> > > > ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be 
> > > > present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful 
> > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded 
> > > > upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to 
> > > > graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC 
> > > > is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we 
> > > > have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there 
> > > > > > were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Qifan Chen <qi...@esgyn.com>]

On top of Eric's point that a number of companies are currently using the technology in production. The adoption of the technology probably will accelerate after the graduation, as it will be formally backed by Hadoop.

The other point is that Trafodion has already taken in HBase as the storage engine. As it acquires more number of customer uses, it is quite possible that new improvement and innovations etc will continue with both Trafodion and HBase, and their overlapping and interaction areas.  Therefore, the graduation will create a win-win situation for the community.  I strongly believe the same will happen with other Hadoop technologies, such as ORC.

Thanks --Qifan
________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 10:21:38 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

+1 on all this.
On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have currently accepted to disclose their names.
Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers, enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
Eric


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production.

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity.

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache
> world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you
> to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
>
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had
> a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the
> diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that
> shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific
> steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project
> does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I
> would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated
> projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would
> need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a
> single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At
> present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do
> have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They
> contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in
> terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
> "active" committer is defined.
>
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I
> think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not
> be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be
> it as a podling or as a TLP.
>
> Thanks
> Suresh
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid
> > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as
> > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8
> > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always
> > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to
> > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted
> > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as
> > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we
> > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly
> > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much
> > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in
> > advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion
> > in China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion
> > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group
> > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So
> > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice
> > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure
> > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for
> > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people
> > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to
> > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some
> > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features
> > to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience.
> > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find
> > more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack
> > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one
> > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could
> > call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the
> > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have
> > a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have
> > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations),
> > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party
> > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love
> > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask
> > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough
> > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive
> > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an
> > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors,
> > as anyone committed to the project (building the community,
> > promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation.
> > We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel
> > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait
> > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers
> > towards retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller
> > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack,
> > > > you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with
> > > > that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the
> > > > right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't
> > > > know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we
> > > > should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we
> > > > will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and
> > > > some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the
> > > general list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get
> > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion
> > > like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain
> > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to
> > > > > Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the
> > > > > same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.
> > > > > But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such
> > > > > as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the
> > > > > other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with
> > > > > Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have
> > > > > not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is
> > > > > large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other
> > > > > open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with
> > > > > HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.
> > > > > Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to
> > > > > new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we
> > > > > do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source
> > > > > and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to
> > > > > the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no
> > > > > obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that
> > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations
> > > > > of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it
> > > > > would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of
> > > > > hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully
> > > > > complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to
> > > > > achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical
> > > > > Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine
> > > > > like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to
> > > > > make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all
> > > > > projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done
> > > > > a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the
> > > > > project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go
> > > > > figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said
> > > > > out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but
> > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going
> > > > to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though
> > > > I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself
> > > > these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this
> > > > time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they
> > > > just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external
> > > > one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would
> > > > ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be
> > > > present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful
> > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded
> > > > upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to
> > > > graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC
> > > > is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we
> > > > have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there
> > > > > > were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>]

+1 on all this.
On Esgyn web site, there is a list of customers and partners that have currently accepted to disclose their names.
Esgyn.com, look at scrolling logos.
I am sure there is more, but that public list already gives a good sense on the fact that Trafodion derivative is being used by real customers, enough to guaranty safe future IMHO.
Eric


-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Varnau [mailto:steve.varnau@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 9:56 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production. 

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity. 

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would 
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache 
> world is new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you 
> to Pierre and James too for all their sage advice.
> 
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had 
> a vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the 
> diversity of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that 
> shortly. As Ming and others have said, I am not sure what specific 
> steps we can take to include new contributors. As such this project 
> does have a stronger than desired dependency on a single company. I 
> would claim though that is true for several other recently graduated 
> projects. For a project to be independent of a single company it would 
> need a significant contribution (say more than 25%) outside of a 
> single company both in terms of code and number of committers. At 
> present I don't see any way in which this could possibly happen. We do 
> have a significant portion of committers outside of Esgyn. They 
> contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not in 
> terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term 
> "active" committer is defined.
> 
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to 
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that 
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I 
> think retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not 
> be a concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be 
> it as a podling or as a TLP.
> 
> Thanks
> Suresh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid 
> > by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as 
> > it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 
> > years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID 
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always 
> > believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to 
> > benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted 
> > very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as 
> > Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we 
> > heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly 
> > improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much 
> > patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in 
> > advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit 
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion 
> > in China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion 
> > is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group 
> > of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So 
> > for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice 
> > us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure 
> > what to do instead of coding day and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for 
> > wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people 
> > from other organizations, since I think we still have room to 
> > improve how to attract other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some 
> > people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features 
> > to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience. 
> > But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find 
> > more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack 
> > has been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one 
> > acting as he did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could 
> > call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the 
> > primary go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have 
> > a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or 
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have 
> > gone the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party 
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), 
> > more supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more 
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party 
> > experiences shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their 
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love 
> > to see more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask 
> > itself if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough 
> > diversity, but also to strengthen itself against inactive 
> > participants (contributors come and go). And it must have an 
> > agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, 
> > as anyone committed to the project (building the community, 
> > promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not 
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. 
> > We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel 
> > confident that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are 
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait 
> > until we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers 
> > towards retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller 
> > > <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, 
> > > > you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with 
> > > > that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the 
> > > > right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't 
> > > > know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we 
> > > > should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we 
> > > > will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and 
> > > > some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the 
> > > general list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get 
> > > more mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion 
> > > like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf 
> > > > Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain 
> > > > <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to 
> > > > > Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the 
> > > > > same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  
> > > > > But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such 
> > > > > as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the 
> > > > > other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with 
> > > > > Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have 
> > > > > not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is 
> > > > > large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other 
> > > > > open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with 
> > > > > HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  
> > > > > Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to 
> > > > > new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we 
> > > > > do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source 
> > > > > and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to 
> > > > > the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no 
> > > > > obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that 
> > > > > satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations 
> > > > > of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it 
> > > > > would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of 
> > > > > hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully 
> > > > > complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to 
> > > > > achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical 
> > > > > Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine 
> > > > > like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to 
> > > > > make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all 
> > > > > projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done 
> > > > > a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the 
> > > > > project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go 
> > > > > figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said 
> > > > > out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but 
> > > > > as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going 
> > > > to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though 
> > > > I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself 
> > > > these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this 
> > > > time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they 
> > > > just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external 
> > > > one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would 
> > > > ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be 
> > > > present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful 
> > > > communities first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded 
> > > > upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to 
> > > > graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC 
> > > > is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we 
> > > > have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there 
> > > > > > were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Steve Varnau <st...@esgyn.com>]

I think the question is not just would people be willing to work on this without being paid, but is the technology being used widely enough that other companies would want to hire trafodion expertise if they could not get it from Esgyn. I think that threshold where company are depending on the technology is being crossed. Real companies are using it in production. 

I would vote for graduation for two reasons. (1) incubator seems to be in the mood now to graduate projects and reduce the number of podlings. (2) Keeping us in incubating state is not helping us achieve the diversity we are lacking. If the lack of diversity is due to our bad practices, then, yes, keep us incubating until we improve those practices. But if it is merely market momentum, then becoming TLP will help diversity. 

--Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suresh Subbiah [mailto:suresh.subbiah60@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 7:42 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
> definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache world is
> new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you to Pierre
> and
> James too for all their sage advice.
> 
> I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had a
> vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the diversity
> of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that shortly. As Ming
> and others have said, I am not sure what specific steps we can take to
> include new contributors. As such this project does have a stronger than
> desired dependency on a single company. I would claim though that is true
> for several other recently graduated projects. For a project to be
> independent of a single company it would need a significant contribution
> (say more than 25%) outside of a single company both in terms of code and
> number of committers. At present I don't see any way in which this could
> possibly happen. We do have a significant portion of committers outside of
> Esgyn. They contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe
> not
> in terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
> "active" committer is defined.
> 
> I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
> Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
> chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I think
> retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not be a
> concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be it as a
> podling or as a TLP.
> 
> Thanks
> Suresh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> > I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid by my
> > company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as it is still
> > there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 years and still
> > love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> > The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> > capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always believe the
> > spirit of open source is to share best technology to benefit the whole
> > world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted very naturally.  I am
> > very curious why such a good thing as Trafodion not successfully draw
> > wide-spread attention. One thing we heard was: it is too hard to try it
> > out, and we already have greatly improved it, but the very first interested
> > people don't have much patience and try it again I guess. So we need
> > investment in advertising maybe :-)
> >
> > And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> > slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion in
> > China, and more and more customers.
> > If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion is a
> > very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group of people
> > and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So for me, I think
> > it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice us, we , at least myself,
> > are not very good at Apache way, not sure what to do instead of coding day
> > and night :-)
> >
> > It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for wait for
> > another few months to see if we can attract more people from other
> > organizations, since I think we still have room to improve how to attract
> > other people's attention.
> > But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some people
> > spending a few months' study and can contribute key features to some
> other
> > projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience. But
> > there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find more
> tasks
> > for beginners.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Ming
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack has
> > been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one acting as he
> > did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could call me (an
> informal)
> > one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC
> Member)
> > one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
> >
> > Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> > improvements) is healthy.
> >
> > Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the primary
> > go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have a page in
> our
> > wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> > through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have gone
> > the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> > implementation organisations to show that there is more than just
> community
> > support.
> > Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), more
> > supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> > contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party experiences
> > shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
> >
> > When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> > viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love to see
> > more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
> >
> > But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask itself
> > if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough diversity, but
> > also to strengthen itself against inactive participants (contributors come
> > and go). And it must have an agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at
> least
> > the first PMC Chair) will be.
> > The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, as
> > anyone committed to the project (building the community, promoting the
> > project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential
> PPMC
> > Member..
> >
> > I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> > insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. We
> just
> > have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel confident
> > that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
> >
> > Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some
> minor
> > aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> > addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait until
> > we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers towards
> > retirement.
> >
> > [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you
> call
> > > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and
> > > say
> > > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from
> granting
> > > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right
> > > questions
> > > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know
> > > about)!
> > > >
> > > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should
> > wait a
> > > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will
> > get
> > > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some
> > more
> > > > active users over the next year or so.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> > >
> > > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
> > > list on incubator?
> > >
> > > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
> > > mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this;
> > good
> > > to have variety of opinion.
> > >
> > > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hans
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> > > Stack
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > James,
> > > > >
> > > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the
> > > last
> > > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk
> > > as
> > > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I
> > guess
> > > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> > > > Cloudera,
> > > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other
> > > reason
> > > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as
> > an
> > > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not
> > had
> > > as
> > > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the
> complexity
> > > and
> > > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> > > > enough
> > > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open
> > > source
> > > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase,
> ORC,
> > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest
> presence in
> > > the
> > > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open
> source
> > > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> > > > most
> > > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> > > > developers
> > > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do
> have
> > in
> > > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the
> community.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and
> > open
> > > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the
> > company
> > > > of
> > > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious
> > path
> > > to
> > > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > > > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that
> > they
> > > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would
> be
> > > > crazy
> > > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > > incredible
> > > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds
> > > of
> > > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> > technology,
> > > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> > compared
> > > > to
> > > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in
> > > the
> > > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing
> > > support
> > > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the
> spectrum.
> > > Maybe
> > > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> > > > Trafodion
> > > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make
> > it
> > > > > ready for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects
> > > are
> > > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a
> great
> > > > job.
> > > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project
> > and
> > > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > > accomplished
> > > > to
> > > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> > decision
> > > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > > >
> > > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my
> > > own
> > > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > > > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > > >
> > > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be
> > in
> > > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd
> > > consider
> > > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> > incubator
> > > is
> > > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these
> > > times).
> > > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time
> > > around?
> > > > (James, you interested?)
> > > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just
> > > provide
> > > > guidance.
> > > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one
> > > (Apache),
> > > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > > resources.
> > > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask
> > why
> > > > bother.
> > > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when
> > > you
> > > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> > > > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is
> > > dodgy
> > > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > > >
> > > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but
> > as
> > > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is
> > > diverse
> > > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation."
> While
> > > we
> > > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC
> members,
> > > how
> > > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have
> any
> > > users
> > > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > S
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Rohit
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> > > > Esgyn,
> > > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> > question
> > > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Suresh Subbiah <su...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

Thank you Stack for being our mentor. Without your guidance we would
definitely not had the success we have enjoyed so far. The Apache world is
new to most of us, and you have been a steady hand. Thank you to Pierre and
James too for all their sage advice.

I do feel that the project is ready is for graduation. I mean if I had a
vote, it would be YES for a project at this stage. Increasing the diversity
of PPMC is a good idea and we should get working on that shortly. As Ming
and others have said, I am not sure what specific steps we can take to
include new contributors. As such this project does have a stronger than
desired dependency on a single company. I would claim though that is true
for several other recently graduated projects. For a project to be
independent of a single company it would need a significant contribution
(say more than 25%) outside of a single company both in terms of code and
number of committers. At present I don't see any way in which this could
possibly happen. We do have a significant portion of committers outside of
Esgyn. They contribute in terms of governance and review thought maybe not
in terms of new code added. I suppose this would depend on how the term
"active" committer is defined.

I think several of us stated that we would continue to contribute to
Trafodion, even if we are not employed by Esgyn. Let me join that
chorus.Given the amount of time many of have spent on this project, I think
retaining interest by the current set of contributors should not be a
concern. All of us are dedicated to the success of Trafodion be it as a
podling or as a TLP.

Thanks
Suresh




On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Liu, Ming (Ming) <mi...@esgyn.cn> wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
> I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid by my
> company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as it is still
> there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 years and still
> love it, and it is the best thing I can do.
> The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID
> capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always believe the
> spirit of open source is to share best technology to benefit the whole
> world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted very naturally.  I am
> very curious why such a good thing as Trafodion not successfully draw
> wide-spread attention. One thing we heard was: it is too hard to try it
> out, and we already have greatly improved it, but the very first interested
> people don't have much patience and try it again I guess. So we need
> investment in advertising maybe :-)
>
> And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit
> slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion in
> China, and more and more customers.
> If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion is a
> very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group of people
> and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So for me, I think
> it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice us, we , at least myself,
> are not very good at Apache way, not sure what to do instead of coding day
> and night :-)
>
> It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for wait for
> another few months to see if we can attract more people from other
> organizations, since I think we still have room to improve how to attract
> other people's attention.
> But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some people
> spending a few months' study and can contribute key features to some other
> projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience. But
> there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find more tasks
> for beginners.
>
> thanks,
> Ming
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack has
> been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one acting as he
> did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could call me (an informal)
> one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC Member)
> one. And then I could have missed some contributors...
>
> Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
> improvements) is healthy.
>
> Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the primary
> go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have a page in our
> wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
> through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have gone
> the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
> implementation organisations to show that there is more than just community
> support.
> Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), more
> supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
> contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party experiences
> shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.
>
> When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
> viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love to see
> more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.
>
> But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask itself
> if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough diversity, but
> also to strengthen itself against inactive participants (contributors come
> and go). And it must have an agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at least
> the first PMC Chair) will be.
> The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, as
> anyone committed to the project (building the community, promoting the
> project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential PPMC
> Member..
>
> I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
> insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. We just
> have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel confident
> that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.
>
> Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some minor
> aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
> addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait until
> we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers towards
> retirement.
>
> [1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> > > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and
> > say
> > > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> > > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right
> > questions
> > > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know
> > about)!
> > >
> > > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should
> wait a
> > > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will
> get
> > > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some
> more
> > > active users over the next year or so.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> > >
> > >
> > Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
> >
> > Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
> > list on incubator?
> >
> > If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
> > mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this;
> good
> > to have variety of opinion.
> >
> > Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
> >
> > S
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hans
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> > Stack
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > James,
> > > >
> > > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the
> > last
> > > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk
> > as
> > > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I
> guess
> > > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> > > Cloudera,
> > > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other
> > reason
> > > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as
> an
> > > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not
> had
> > as
> > > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity
> > and
> > > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> > > enough
> > > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open
> > source
> > > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC,
> > etc.
> > > >
> > > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in
> > the
> > > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> > > most
> > > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> > > developers
> > > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have
> in
> > > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> > > >
> > > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and
> open
> > > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the
> company
> > > of
> > > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious
> path
> > to
> > > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that
> they
> > > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> > > crazy
> > > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> > incredible
> > > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds
> > of
> > > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database
> technology,
> > > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers
> compared
> > > to
> > > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying
> with
> > > the
> > > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in
> > the
> > > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing
> > support
> > > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.
> > Maybe
> > > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> > > Trafodion
> > > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make
> it
> > > > ready for it.
> > > >
> > > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects
> > are
> > > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> > > job.
> > > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project
> and
> > > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> > accomplished
> > > to
> > > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same
> decision
> > > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure
> how
> > > the
> > > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > > >
> > > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my
> > own
> > > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> > >
> > >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be
> in
> > > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd
> > consider
> > > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that
> incubator
> > is
> > > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these
> > times).
> > > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time
> > around?
> > > (James, you interested?)
> > >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just
> > provide
> > > guidance.
> > >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one
> > (Apache),
> > > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> > resources.
> > > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask
> why
> > > bother.
> > >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when
> > you
> > > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> > >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> > > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is
> > dodgy
> > > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> > >
> > > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but
> as
> > > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is
> > diverse
> > > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While
> > we
> > > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members,
> > how
> > > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any
> > users
> > > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Rohit
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> > > Esgyn,
> > > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when
> question
> > > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

["Liu, Ming (Ming)" <mi...@esgyn.cn>]

Hi, all,

As one of the PPMC member, here is my point of view.
I have faith in this project, now I am contributing with salary paid by my company Esgyn, but I believe I will contribute to it as far as it is still there. I have been working on this technology for over 8 years and still love it, and it is the best thing I can do. 
The cascades optimizer, the data-flow execution engine, the ACID capability, Trafodion deserve more attention.  Because I always believe the spirit of open source is to share best technology to benefit the whole world. So good tech should be welcomed and adopted very naturally.  I am very curious why such a good thing as Trafodion not successfully draw wide-spread attention. One thing we heard was: it is too hard to try it out, and we already have greatly improved it, but the very first interested people don't have much patience and try it again I guess. So we need investment in advertising maybe :-) 

And what I saw is : the Trafodion community is growing, a little bit slowly, but we can see more and more people talking about Trafodion in China, and more and more customers.
If one look at the developing activity, the code commit, Trafodion is a very healthy growing baby, as a software product. A small group of people and a small company did incredible job, I have to say. So for me, I think it needs the Apache Foundation to help us, advice us, we , at least myself, are not very good at Apache way, not sure what to do instead of coding day and night :-)

It is very hard for me to decide graduate now or wait, I vote for wait for another few months to see if we can attract more people from other organizations, since I think we still have room to improve how to attract other people's attention.
But it is still hard, as Rohit correctly pointed out. I saw some people spending a few months' study and can contribute key features to some other projects, but for Trafodion, it is much harder as my own experience. But there are some simpler components I believe, so we should find more tasks for beginners. 

thanks,
Ming


-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2017 8:12 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack has
been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one acting as he
did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could call me (an informal)
one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC Member)
one. And then I could have missed some contributors...

Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
improvements) is healthy.

Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the primary
go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have a page in our
wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have gone
the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
implementation organisations to show that there is more than just community
support.
Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), more
supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party experiences
shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.

When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love to see
more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.

But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask itself
if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough diversity, but
also to strengthen itself against inactive participants (contributors come
and go). And it must have an agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at least
the first PMC Chair) will be.
The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, as
anyone committed to the project (building the community, promoting the
project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential PPMC
Member..

I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. We just
have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel confident
that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.

Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some minor
aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait until
we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers towards retirement.

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and
> say
> > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right
> questions
> > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know
> about)!
> >
> > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a
> > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get
> > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more
> > active users over the next year or so.
> >
> > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> >
> >
> Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
>
> Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
> list on incubator?
>
> If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
> mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this; good
> to have variety of opinion.
>
> Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
>
> S
>
>
>
> > Hans
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Stack
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the
> last
> > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk
> as
> > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> > Cloudera,
> > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other
> reason
> > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had
> as
> > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity
> and
> > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> > enough
> > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open
> source
> > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC,
> etc.
> > >
> > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in
> the
> > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> > most
> > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> > developers
> > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> > >
> > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company
> > of
> > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path
> to
> > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> > crazy
> > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> incredible
> > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds
> of
> > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared
> > to
> > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with
> > the
> > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in
> the
> > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing
> support
> > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.
> Maybe
> > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> > Trafodion
> > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> > > ready for it.
> > >
> > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects
> are
> > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> > job.
> > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> accomplished
> > to
> > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how
> > the
> > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > >
> > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my
> own
> > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> >
> >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
> > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd
> consider
> > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator
> is
> > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these
> times).
> > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time
> around?
> > (James, you interested?)
> >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just
> provide
> > guidance.
> >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one
> (Apache),
> > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> resources.
> > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
> > bother.
> >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when
> you
> > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is
> dodgy
> > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> >
> > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
> > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is
> diverse
> > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While
> we
> > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members,
> how
> > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any
> users
> > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Rohit
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> > Esgyn,
> > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>]

First of all: I agree with statements made earlier about how St.Ack has
been mentoring this podling. It goes to show that having one acting as he
did/does can be enough. As for having more: you could call me (an informal)
one. And you could call James Taylor (as participating ASF and IPMC Member)
one. And then I could have missed some contributors...

Like I said earlier activities regarding the code (bugs and other
improvements) is healthy.

Yes, there are opportunities to do more to make Trafodion the primary
go-to-source for transactional SQL-on-HADOOP. We could have a page in our
wiki showing who has adopted (using) Trafodion - either directly, or
through a derivative - as it shows interested parties that more have gone
the route. Similarly we could do with a page listing 3rd party
implementation organisations to show that there is more than just community
support.
Both will (most likely) lead to more adoption (implementations), more
supporters, more career opportunities, more contributors, more
contributions, more downloads, more tweets, more 3rd party experiences
shared, faster bugs fixed, etc. And this all is a chicken-egg situation.

When I look at this thread I see not many PPMC Members sharing their
viewpoints (and/or their commitment to this project). I would love to see
more. It would help when we make the proposal for the IPMC.

But before we formalise our request to graduate, the PPMC must ask itself
if it doesn't need more members. Not only to show enough diversity, but
also to strengthen itself against inactive participants (contributors come
and go). And it must have an agreement on who the PPMC Chair (or at least
the first PMC Chair) will be.
The PPMC should look beyond the existing pool of code contributors, as
anyone committed to the project (building the community, promoting the
project/product) and the Apache Way should be regarded as potential PPMC
Member..

I see contributors raising issues in this thread. These are not
insurmountable, and not all need to be addressed before graduation. We just
have to avoid them slipping from the table. All in all, I feel confident
that all participating in this project will collaborate to mitigate those.

Long story short: yes, we're somewhat ready (we need to address some minor
aspects first, like the incubator status page [1]). When those are
addressed, we can either advocate our case before the IPMC, or wait until
we old and grey and this project (in incubation) withers towards retirement.

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> > yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and
> say
> > thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> > Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right
> questions
> > and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know
> about)!
> >
> > Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a
> > bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get
> > some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more
> > active users over the next year or so.
> >
> > Thanks again for being a great mentor,
> >
> >
> Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!
>
> Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
> list on incubator?
>
> If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
> mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this; good
> to have variety of opinion.
>
> Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.
>
> S
>
>
>
> > Hans
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Stack
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > > James,
> > >
> > > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the
> last
> > > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk
> as
> > > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> > > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> > Cloudera,
> > > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other
> reason
> > > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> > > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had
> as
> > > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity
> and
> > > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> > enough
> > > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open
> source
> > > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC,
> etc.
> > >
> > > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in
> the
> > > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> > most
> > > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> > developers
> > > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> > > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> > >
> > > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> > > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company
> > of
> > > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path
> to
> > > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> > > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> > crazy
> > > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an
> incredible
> > > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds
> of
> > > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> > > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared
> > to
> > > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with
> > the
> > > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in
> the
> > > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing
> support
> > > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.
> Maybe
> > > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> > Trafodion
> > > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> > > ready for it.
> > >
> > > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects
> are
> > > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> > job.
> > > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> > > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have
> accomplished
> > to
> > > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> > > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how
> > the
> > > Apache foundation and its community works.
> > >
> > > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my
> own
> > > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> > >
> > >
> > Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
> >
> >  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
> > incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd
> consider
> > what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator
> is
> > doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these
> times).
> > We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time
> around?
> > (James, you interested?)
> >  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just
> provide
> > guidance.
> >  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one
> (Apache),
> > then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies'
> resources.
> > If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
> > bother.
> >  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when
> you
> > TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
> >  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> > first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is
> dodgy
> > even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
> >
> > If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
> > is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is
> diverse
> > enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While
> we
> > have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members,
> how
> > many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any
> users
> > who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > S
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Rohit
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> > >
> > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> > Esgyn,
> > > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> > >
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Stack <st...@duboce.net>]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 7:10 PM, Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call
> yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and say
> thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting
> Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right questions
> and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know about)!
>
> Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a
> bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get
> some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more
> active users over the next year or so.
>
> Thanks again for being a great mentor,
>
>
Smile. If you saw what a good mentor does you might think different!

Pierre, do you think the project ready to go up for a vote on the general
list on incubator?

If we are going to be incubator a bit longer, lets try and get more
mentors. Would be good to have more around when discussion like this; good
to have variety of opinion.

Lets try and figure how to do more outreach too.

S



> Hans
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Stack
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:
>
> > James,
> >
> > You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last
> > time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as
> > Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> > that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as
> Cloudera,
> > are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason
> > provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> > example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as
> > much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and
> > the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large
> enough
> > that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source
> > projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.
> >
> > We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the
> > US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> > culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus,
> most
> > of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new
> developers
> > on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> > Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
> >
> > There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> > sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company
> of
> > maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to
> > TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> > decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> > would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be
> crazy
> > to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible
> > IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of
> > million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> > capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared
> to
> > the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with
> the
> > specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the
> > Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support
> > on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe
> > we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like
> Trafodion
> > must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> > ready for it.
> >
> > So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are
> > supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great
> job.
> > But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> > present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished
> to
> > qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> > makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how
> the
> > Apache foundation and its community works.
> >
> > I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own
> > frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> > individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
> >
> >
> Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.
>
>  * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
> incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider
> what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is
> doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times).
> We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around?
> (James, you interested?)
>  * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide
> guidance.
>  * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache),
> then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources.
> If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
> bother.
>  * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you
> TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
>  * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
> first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy
> even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.
>
> If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
> is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse
> enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we
> have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how
> many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users
> who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.
>
> Thanks,
> S
>
>
>
>
>
> > Rohit
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> > To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no
> Esgyn,
> > > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > > comes up on the general incubator list.
> > >
> > >
> > Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
> >
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>]

I will second that!  There is no question that you have been great Stack.  And especially for the fact that you have stuck on for as long as you have.  We really appreciate it.

Before we can go for a vote it must be compelling to folks like Pierre and you.  If it is not, then it would be hard to get the PPMC to agree.  So, I would agree with Hans.

Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: Hans Zeller [mailto:hans.zeller@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:11 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and say thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right questions and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know about)!

Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more active users over the next year or so.

Thanks again for being a great mentor,

Hans

-----Original Message-----
From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Stack
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:

> James,
>
> You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last
> time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as
> Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as Cloudera,
> are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason
> provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as
> much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and
> the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large enough
> that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source
> projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.
>
> We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the
> US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus, most
> of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new developers
> on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
>
> There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company of
> maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to
> TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be crazy
> to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible
> IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of
> million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared to
> the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with the
> specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the
> Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support
> on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe
> we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like Trafodion
> must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> ready for it.
>
> So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are
> supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great job.
> But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished to
> qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how the
> Apache foundation and its community works.
>
> I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own
> frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
>
>
Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.

 * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider
what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is
doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times).
We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around?
(James, you interested?)
 * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide
guidance.
 * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache),
then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources.
If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
bother.
 * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you
TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
 * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy
even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.

If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse
enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we
have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how
many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users
who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.

Thanks,
S





> Rohit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > comes up on the general incubator list.
> >
> >
> Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Hans Zeller <ha...@esgyn.com>]

Hi,

Just wanted to comment on one thing in the email below: Stack, you call yourself a "deadbeat mentor". I want to disagree strongly with that and say thank you for the many things you are continuously doing, from granting Karma to making connections to other projects to asking the right questions and providing guidance (and probably many more things I don't know about)!

Also, a short comment on the subject of the thread: IMHO we should wait a bit more before asking for a graduation vote. My hope is that we will get some more and also more active committers outside of Esgyn and some more active users over the next year or so.

Thanks again for being a great mentor,

Hans

-----Original Message-----
From: saint.ack@gmail.com [mailto:saint.ack@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Stack
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 3:33 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:

> James,
>
> You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last
> time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as
> Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as Cloudera,
> are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason
> provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as
> much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and
> the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large enough
> that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source
> projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.
>
> We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the
> US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus, most
> of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new developers
> on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
>
> There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company of
> maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to
> TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be crazy
> to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible
> IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of
> million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared to
> the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with the
> specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the
> Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support
> on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe
> we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like Trafodion
> must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> ready for it.
>
> So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are
> supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great job.
> But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished to
> qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how the
> Apache foundation and its community works.
>
> I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own
> frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
>
>
Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.

 * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider
what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is
doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times).
We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around?
(James, you interested?)
 * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide
guidance.
 * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache),
then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources.
If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
bother.
 * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you
TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
 * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy
even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.

If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse
enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we
have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how
many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users
who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.

Thanks,
S





> Rohit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > comes up on the general incubator list.
> >
> >
> Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Stack <st...@duboce.net>]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com> wrote:

> James,
>
> You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last
> time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as
> Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess
> that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as Cloudera,
> are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason
> provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an
> example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as
> much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and
> the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large enough
> that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source
> projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.
>
> We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the
> US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source
> culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus, most
> of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new developers
> on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in
> Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.
>
> There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open
> sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company of
> maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to
> TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the
> decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they
> would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be crazy
> to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible
> IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of
> million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology,
> capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared to
> the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with the
> specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the
> Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support
> on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe
> we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like Trafodion
> must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it
> ready for it.
>
> So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are
> supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great job.
> But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and
> present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished to
> qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision
> makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how the
> Apache foundation and its community works.
>
> I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own
> frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an
> individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.
>
>
Thanks Rohit for the straight perspective.

 * Yeah, the project needs more (active) mentors if we are going to be in
incubator for some time to come. We have close to zero though I'd consider
what Pierre does, 1st quality mentor-work (Interesting is that incubator is
doing a bit of house cleaning of deadbeat mentors like myself these times).
We can ask again for mentors upstream? We might do better this time around?
(James, you interested?)
 * Mentors will not bring users and contributors though; they just provide
guidance.
 * If there are two repositories, an internal and an external one (Apache),
then, yeah, mirroring and upkeep is a tax on a small companies' resources.
If no contrib coming in from outside, I can see that folks would ask why
bother.
 * All the issues apparent here while in incubator will be present when you
TLP; TLPing is not a project entering project paradise.
 * Apache, and incubator particularly, is about successful communities
first. Many successful Apache projects are grounded upon tech that is dodgy
even, nowhere close to the jewel that Trafodion is.

If folks here think we are ready, we can go for a vote to graduate but as
is Pierre's experience, we'll be quizzed on "...whether the PPMC is diverse
enough to be regarded as independent of any outside affiliation." While we
have companies other than Esgyn listed as affiliations of PPMC members, how
many are active? One or two would be enough I'd think. Do we have any users
who'd be happy to talk up their use of Apache Trafodion publicly.

Thanks,
S





> Rohit
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > comes up on the general incubator list.
> >
> >
> Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Rohit Jain <ro...@esgyn.com>]

James,

You bring up a very pertinent point that we brought up to Stack the last time.  There are projects that one could argue may have the same risk as Trafodion of not prevailing if a company does not survive.  But I guess that risk is mitigated somewhat to where those companies, such as Cloudera, are in their market presence versus Esgyn perhaps.  But the other reason provided was the involvement of many folks associated with Kudu, as an example, with other open source projects.  Our committers have not had as much involvement with other projects, perhaps because the complexity and the backlog of what we need to accomplish for our customers is large enough that it has not afforded us time to contribute towards other open source projects, even though we have always had the intent with HBase, ORC, etc.

We have a good number of customers in China and a modest presence in the US.  But our customers so far themselves may not have the open source culture, or the resources to contribute to the project itself.  Plus, most of our code is in C++, although we have provided guidance to new developers on how to contribute towards the fair amount of code that we do have in Java.  So, certainly these have hindered the growth of the community.

There is increasing frustration within Esgyn about open source and open sourcing anything into Apache since there is a huge cost to the company of maintaining an extra set of threads and versions, with no obvious path to TLP because of the reasons mentioned.  It seems that satisfying the decision makers, despite personal declarations of developers that they would be involved with the project beyond Esgyn, and that it would be crazy to think that no one would be interested in picking up such an incredible IP if anything were to happen to Esgyn -- this is decades of hundreds of million dollars of investment, into an incredible database technology, capable of running TPC-C and TPC-DS at very impressive numbers compared to the competition, with all queries executing while fully complying with the specs on the syntax (that no other vendor has been able to achieve in the Big Data world).  Full Hybrid Transactional/Analytical Processing support on Hadoop with unmatched performance on both ends of the spectrum.  Maybe we are just horrible at Marketing that a jewel of an engine like Trafodion must fight to get to TLP after all that we have done to try to make it ready for it.

So, this is an ongoing struggle.  From what I understand all projects are supposed to have 2-3 mentors.  We have had Stack who has done a great job.  But we need other strong mentors who can actively back the project and present its value to the Apache Foundation and what we have accomplished to qualify for TLP.  We have requested more mentors, but the same decision makers on TLP, seem to have ignored those requests.  So, go figure how the Apache foundation and its community works.

I probably have stepped beyond the line in what I have said out of my own frustrations.  These in no way reflect the views of Esgyn but as an individual associated with Apache Trafodion, as they should.

Rohit

-----Original Message-----
From: James Taylor [mailto:jamestaylor@apache.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 12:28 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:

>
> Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> comes up on the general incubator list.
>
>
Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Stack <st...@duboce.net>]

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 10:27 AM, James Taylor <ja...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> > would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> > comes up on the general incubator list.
> >
> >
> Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?
>


No.

Kudu was in a different place with (non-Cloudera) Apache advocates -- Jake
and Chris. -- and non-Clouderian contributors, more overall activity, and
at least one large (public) deploy, and so on. It was also being run by
long-time Apache members/committers.

The question may well be asked when say, Impala, which went in before Kudu
and is still in incubation, comes up for graduation.

The question is just a form of my main concern regards graduation, which is
being able to demonstrate that this project has the first indicator of
being an 'open and diverse community': i.e. being able to "...recruit
users, developers, committers and PMCers." [1]

S
1. http://incubator.apache.org/guides/graduation.html#community

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[James Taylor <ja...@apache.org>]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:55 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:

>
> Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
> would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question
> comes up on the general incubator list.
>
>
Did that question come up wrt Cloudera and Kudu for graduation?

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Stack <st...@duboce.net>]

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:54 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ...
> It is more a question of whether the PPMC is diverse enough to be regarded
> as independent of any outside affiliation (my experiences is that this is
> one of the major questions popping at graduation discussions in general @
> incubator). And I believe it is as there are persons with affiliations with
> Esgyn, Hewlett Packard, and other companies.
>

Is there general agreement with Pierre's belief? If there were no Esgyn,
would Trafodion prevail? Asking here so we are prepared when question comes
up on the general incubator list.

Thanks,
St.Ack

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>]

HI St.Ack, All,

[1] indicates that the number of (active) committers is large enough. And
we see lots of activity with respect to issues. It isn't as much a question
of people on the list are active or not. The privilege is for life and we
can't dictate when contributors will be active. As I have stated at various
occasions: 'A project can never have to many committers'. People come and
go.

It is more a question of whether the PPMC is diverse enough to be regarded
as independent of any outside affiliation (my experiences is that this is
one of the major questions popping at graduation discussions in general @
incubator). And I believe it is as there are persons with affiliations with
Esgyn, Hewlett Packard, and other companies.

1. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:49 AM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:

> Thanks for starting up this thread Pierre.
>
> I'd imagine that the first question we'll run into if we go for a TLP vote
> is whether all active committers are Esgyn employees? Looking at [1], how
> do I interpret the list. An iCLA was filed against Trafodion? I'm
> particularly interested in the non-Esgyn contributors. Some are
> ex-HPE/Esgyn employees? Have there lapsed or are active still?
>
> Just trying to get ahead of this question when it comes up on the general.
>
> Thanks,
> St.Ack
> 1. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August
> > 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times
> > succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).
> >
> > Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and
> > through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch
> -
> > 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made
> > (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).
> >
> > All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board
> show a
> > podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles
> > and is moving forward in a steady pace.
> >
> > And our contributors are working towards our next release..
> >
> > So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One
> > action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details
> (e.g.
> > affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.
> >
> > A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a
> > point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator
> > voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the
> > proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).
> >
> >    - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will
> be
> >    in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a
> > different
> >    flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
> >    - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
> >    course, have nothing to worry about.
> >
> > To come to an end of this posting:
> >
> > please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate
> >
> >
> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Stack <st...@duboce.net>]

Thanks for starting up this thread Pierre.

I'd imagine that the first question we'll run into if we go for a TLP vote
is whether all active committers are Esgyn employees? Looking at [1], how
do I interpret the list. An iCLA was filed against Trafodion? I'm
particularly interested in the non-Esgyn contributors. Some are
ex-HPE/Esgyn employees? Have there lapsed or are active still?

Just trying to get ahead of this question when it comes up on the general.

Thanks,
St.Ack
1. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors


On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 7:22 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August
> 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times
> succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).
>
> Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and
> through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch -
> 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made
> (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).
>
> All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a
> podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles
> and is moving forward in a steady pace.
>
> And our contributors are working towards our next release..
>
> So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One
> action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
> affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.
>
> A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a
> point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator
> voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the
> proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).
>
>    - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
>    in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a
> different
>    flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
>    - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
>    course, have nothing to worry about.
>
> To come to an end of this posting:
>
> please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate
>
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Hi Pierre,

Yes, I've checked that the list of PPMC members on [1] is correct.

What updates do you think should be made on [2]? I don't see a list of PPMC members there. On the left hand side there is a "Podling PMC (PPMC)" link under the heading "Podling Guides" but that's a link to general Apache information about PPMCs in general, so I assume you're not referring to that? The "News" section on the right hand side seems correct. Under "Project Info" on the right hand side there is a link, "Contributor Guide, list of contributors and committers": perhaps this is the link you're referring to? That link takes you to the Trafodion Contributor Guide, and on the left hand margin of that page is a link "Contributors" which takes us back to [1]. 

Perhaps it would be better if the "Contributor Guide, list of contributors and committers" link on [2] were broken into two links, one for the Contributor Guide, and the other labelled "Contributors, Committers and PPMC members", and have the latter point back to [2].

Let me know what you think,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

[2] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 10:49 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Is the list of PPMC Members in https://cwiki.apache.org/ confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors correct?

If so, the page http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion.html should be updated too.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
wrote:

> Done! You might want to review it to make sure I did it correctly.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:07 PM
> To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> My JIRA ID is sethjinjian
> I filed iCLA on 20/Oct, 2015
>
> Br,
>
> Seth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: 2017年2月16日 0:25
> To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Seth,
>
> I've added you.
>
> Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an 
> apache ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a 
> committer)? If so, let me know and I'll add them.
>
> Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the 
> filing and I'll add that too.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
> To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.
>
> Br,
>
> Seth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and 
> PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers 
> that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If 
> those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update 
> it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)
>
> If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in 
> [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your 
> information and I will be glad to add it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I will do it later today.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Eason
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I 
> know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.
>
> Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some 
> research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.
>
> Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi all,
>
> Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in 
> July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a 
> number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).
>
> Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and 
> through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, 
> watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made 
> (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).
>
> All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board 
> show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF 
> principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.
>
> And our contributors are working towards our next release..
>
> So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One 
> action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
> affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.
>
> A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much 
> a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by 
> Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down 
> to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).
>
>    - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
>    in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a 
> different
>    flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
>    - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
>    course, have nothing to worry about.
>
> To come to an end of this posting:
>
> please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate
>
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

Is the list of PPMC Members in https://cwiki.apache.org/
confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors correct?

If so, the page http://incubator.apache.org/projects/trafodion.html should
be updated too.

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
wrote:

> Done! You might want to review it to make sure I did it correctly.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:07 PM
> To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> My JIRA ID is sethjinjian
> I filed iCLA on 20/Oct, 2015
>
> Br,
>
> Seth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: 2017年2月16日 0:25
> To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Seth,
>
> I've added you.
>
> Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an apache
> ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a committer)? If
> so, let me know and I'll add them.
>
> Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the filing
> and I'll add that too.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
> To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
> Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi Dave,
>
> Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.
>
> Br,
>
> Seth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC
> information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I
> know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks
> would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately,
> I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)
>
> If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1]
> and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I
> will be glad to add it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Dave
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I will do it later today.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn]
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Eason
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi,
>
> I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know
> of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.
>
> Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some
> research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.
>
> Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.
>
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
> To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation
>
> Hi all,
>
> Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August
> 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times
> succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).
>
> Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and
> through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch -
> 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made
> (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).
>
> All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show
> a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles
> and is moving forward in a steady pace.
>
> And our contributors are working towards our next release..
>
> So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One
> action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
> affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.
>
> A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a
> point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator
> voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the
> proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).
>
>    - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
>    in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a
> different
>    flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
>    - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
>    course, have nothing to worry about.
>
> To come to an end of this posting:
>
> please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate
>
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors
>
> Best regards,
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

["Jin, Jian (Seth)" <Ji...@esgyn.cn>]

It is correct, thanks Dave.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月17日 1:29
To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Done! You might want to review it to make sure I did it correctly.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:07 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

My JIRA ID is sethjinjian
I filed iCLA on 20/Oct, 2015

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月16日 0:25
To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Seth,

I've added you. 

Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an apache ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a committer)? If so, let me know and I'll add them.

Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the filing and I'll add that too.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Done! You might want to review it to make sure I did it correctly.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 6:07 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

My JIRA ID is sethjinjian
I filed iCLA on 20/Oct, 2015

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月16日 0:25
To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Seth,

I've added you. 

Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an apache ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a committer)? If so, let me know and I'll add them.

Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the filing and I'll add that too.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

["Jin, Jian (Seth)" <Ji...@esgyn.cn>]

Hi Dave,

My JIRA ID is sethjinjian
I filed iCLA on 20/Oct, 2015

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月16日 0:25
To: Jin, Jian (Seth) <Ji...@esgyn.cn>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Seth,

I've added you. 

Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an apache ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a committer)? If so, let me know and I'll add them.

Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the filing and I'll add that too.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Hi Seth,

I've added you. 

Do you have a JIRA user ID? Or a Confluence (wiki) user ID? Or an apache ID (you usually don't get one of these until you become a committer)? If so, let me know and I'll add them.

Also, if you've filed an iCLA with Apache, send me the date of the filing and I'll add that too.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Jin, Jian (Seth) [mailto:Jian.jin@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:23 PM
To: Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>
Cc: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi Dave,

Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

["Jin, Jian (Seth)" <Ji...@esgyn.cn>]

Hi Dave,

Could you help to add me in contributor list, thanks.

Br,

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: 2017年2月15日 5:23
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Hi,

I've made a pass over the contributor list at [1]. The committer and PPMC information looks correct to me, except there are some committers that I know have changed their affiliation and e-mail contacts. If those folks would respond with their new info, I'll be glad to update it. (Separately, I will attempt to contact each of them privately.)

If there are contributors on this e-mail list who are not included in [1] and would like to be included, please respond with your information and I will be glad to add it.

Regards,

Dave

[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:28 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

I will do it later today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Roberta Marton <ro...@esgyn.com>]

I believe we are ready to go to TLP in Trafodion.  Speaking as the first release manager for Trafodion, we have come a long way since the first release.  We have incorporated many new processes in Trafodion to meet Apache standards with licensing, copyrights, and release management.   We have an active team in place and it is growing.   It is exciting to be part of such a great product.

    Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: Qifan Chen [mailto:qifan.chen@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:13 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

We can offer some good aspects of diversity with Trafodion as follows. This happens slowly but surely since the start of the incubation of Trafodion.

  1.  More developers work on Trafodion than before, such as improving the SQL engine, or writing Trafodion UDFs to extend Trafodion functionalities. This is particularly true in both US and China;
  2.  More companies/communities have convinced that Trafodion can help meet their Big Data needs and start various types of projects with it;
  3.  Trafodion has been enhanced with more features and can be tightly integrated with many other Hadoop projects (such as Kafka, as described here https://esgyn.com/trafodion-kafka-trafka/).

I think we are ready for graduation.

Regards,
--Qifan


________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi All,
I also think that we are ready for graduation.
On the diversity front I am wondering about the following: The objective of diversity is to make sure the product will not vanish, should the main company supporting it defaults.
However, I am thinking that the customer base of that company, using Trafodion, or its derivative implementation could be a gage of guaranteed sustainability: One of the key selling point of Trafodion derivative product, is that it comes from open source. So that in case of defaulting company, customers have a backup plan to just take over matter in their own hands (they would most likely hire Trafodion engineers to sustain their production DB).
So in a nutshell, I believe we could consider how many companies have disclosed running Trafodion or its derivative in production, and factor this in as a gage of sustainability along with diversity.
I believe that adding this will be sufficient to convince we are ready for graduation,
Best regards,
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 8:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

Re: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Qifan Chen <qi...@esgyn.com>]

We can offer some good aspects of diversity with Trafodion as follows. This happens slowly but surely since the start of the incubation of Trafodion.

  1.  More developers work on Trafodion than before, such as improving the SQL engine, or writing Trafodion UDFs to extend Trafodion functionalities. This is particularly true in both US and China;
  2.  More companies/communities have convinced that Trafodion can help meet their Big Data needs and start various types of projects with it;
  3.  Trafodion has been enhanced with more features and can be tightly integrated with many other Hadoop projects (such as Kafka, as described here https://esgyn.com/trafodion-kafka-trafka/).

I think we are ready for graduation.

Regards,
--Qifan


________________________________
From: Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 8:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi All,
I also think that we are ready for graduation.
On the diversity front I am wondering about the following: The objective of diversity is to make sure the product will not vanish, should the main company supporting it defaults.
However, I am thinking that the customer base of that company, using Trafodion, or its derivative implementation could be a gage of guaranteed sustainability: One of the key selling point of Trafodion derivative product, is that it comes from open source. So that in case of defaulting company, customers have a backup plan to just take over matter in their own hands (they would most likely hire Trafodion engineers to sustain their production DB).
So in a nutshell, I believe we could consider how many companies have disclosed running Trafodion or its derivative in production, and factor this in as a gage of sustainability along with diversity.
I believe that adding this will be sufficient to convince we are ready for graduation,
Best regards,
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 8:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Eric Owhadi <er...@esgyn.com>]

Hi All,
I also think that we are ready for graduation. 
On the diversity front I am wondering about the following: The objective of diversity is to make sure the product will not vanish, should the main company supporting it defaults. 
However, I am thinking that the customer base of that company, using Trafodion, or its derivative implementation could be a gage of guaranteed sustainability: One of the key selling point of Trafodion derivative product, is that it comes from open source. So that in case of defaulting company, customers have a backup plan to just take over matter in their own hands (they would most likely hire Trafodion engineers to sustain their production DB).
So in a nutshell, I believe we could consider how many companies have disclosed running Trafodion or its derivative in production, and factor this in as a gage of sustainability along with diversity. 
I believe that adding this will be sufficient to convince we are ready for graduation,
Best regards,
Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 8:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Hi,

It looks like Hans has added you.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Zhang, Yi (Eason) [mailto:yi.zhang@esgyn.cn] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 6:35 PM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

["Zhang, Yi (Eason)" <yi...@esgyn.cn>]

I'm not in the contributor list, someone can add me in?


Thanks,
Eason


-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Birdsall [mailto:dave.birdsall@esgyn.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 05:24
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

RE: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

[Dave Birdsall <da...@esgyn.com>]

Hi,

I'll plan on spending some time this week bringing [1] up-to-date. I know of a few changes off the top of my head. Most of it is accurate though.

Diversity has always been the issue with this particular podling. Some research needs to be done to freshly assess where we are on this.

Beyond that issue though I personally feel we are ready for graduation.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.smits@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:22 AM
To: dev@trafodion.incubator.apache.org
Subject: [DISCUSSION] Work towards graduation

Hi all,

Last time we checked whether we were ready to graduate was in July/August 2016. Since we started incubation we have released a number of times succesfully (so we can say that we have that under our belt).

Our community shows a healthy interaction on our mailing list(s) and through github (pull requests -947 closes, forks - 85, stars - 91, watch - 25, all per today) and several presentations have been made (ApacheCon/Apache BigData/other events).

All in all, our reports (through the Incubator reports) to the board show a podling, where its contributors act in accordance with the ASF principles and is moving forward in a steady pace.

And our contributors are working towards our next release..

So, I believe it is time that we start working towards graduation. One action we should all work at is looking at [1] and update our details (e.g.
affiliation, e-mail address) to reflect a current situation.

A major aspect regarding graduation is diversity. This is not as much a point with respect to committer. But it might be perceived (by Incubator voters - with binding vote - as an issue when it comes down to the proposition of the intended PMC (after graduation).

   - If we feel that diversity (as it is now in the PPMC, or as it will be
   in the future PMC) will be an issue, we should invite more from a different
   flock (e.g. consider report reviewers/others).
   - If we feel that we can successfully address IPMC concerns we, of
   course, have nothing to worry about.

To come to an end of this posting:

please share your thoughts on whether we are ready to graduate


[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TRAFODION/Contributors

Best regards,

Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/