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Posted to fop-dev@xmlgraphics.apache.org by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be> on 2004/02/03 18:19:32 UTC
Just a small question...
Picked this one up @ mulberry:
"In RenderX XEP, an XSL FO formatter, the preprocessor is written in XSLT;
it is a complex stylesheet of moderate size, and it does what is best to
do in XML manipulation language."
Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this?
Is it an option that has once been considered for/is applicable to FOP?
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Austin [mailto:jwaustin@sympatico.ca]
>
<snip />
> I am surprised that MS or their minions at SCO haven't twigged to the
> following scheme"
>
> They could 'set-up' Open Source by masquerading as some student
> in netland and submit some provably proprietary code as original.
>
> Six months later, MS sues Linus for malfeasance with the vigorous
> support of Homeland Security ...
>
> Of course, conspiracies never succeed for long. Some small fish
> would rat them out.
>
>
> --
> John Austin <jw...@sympatico.ca>
^^^^^^^^^
You are, aren't you?
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by John Austin <jw...@sympatico.ca>.
On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 15:28, Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
> I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets
> fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us.
> Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple
> integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few
> patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because
> of 'simple integrity'?)
I am surprised that MS or their minions at SCO haven't twigged to the
following scheme"
They could 'set-up' Open Source by masquerading as some student
in netland and submit some provably proprietary code as original.
Six months later, MS sues Linus for malfeasance with the vigorous
support of Homeland Security ...
Of course, conspiracies never succeed for long. Some small fish
would rat them out.
--
John Austin <jw...@sympatico.ca>
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter B. West [mailto:pbwest@powerup.com.au]
>
> Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
> >
> > Peter / Nikolai,
> >
> > I think I should be the one to apologize here, as Nikolai seems
> > to have been offended by one of *my* unreflected shoots from the hip ...
>
<snip />
> Andreas,
>
> Thanks for these comments. Glen has pointed out to me, off-list, the
> same thing. As I was the one who mentioned Glen by name (as neither
> Bertrand nor Jeremias did) I must acknowledge that leaving the 2nd-level
> quotes from you in my reply to Nikolai gave completely the wrong
> impression. I owe Glen an apology for shooting from the hip.
>
The thing bothering me was that I received Nikolai's response, then my
connection dropped, so I couldn't respond immediately...
In any case, I'm glad so many team-members decided to jump in, and expressed
their desire for public apologies. I'm not the kind of person who feels he's
too good to apologize when he crossed a line. Reconsidering my response, I
must admit that I probably went one (at least one) step too far. (To think
that the remark in question was inserted by me right before sending it.)
Of course, I can understand Nikolai's reacting in this way. As RX
project-leader, he obviously 'cares' about his project. Same goes for me,
however... I'm a FOP-guy, not? If I were working at RX, chances are you'd
catch me uttering a few similar remarks on the FOP-team (--but hey, boys
will be boys!)
So, Nikolai, again my apologies. It was never the intention to create the
appearance that RX was in bad financial papers (--how the heck would I know
anyway?), nor that any of their collaborators had questionable motives.
I do hope, with Peter and many others, that you reconsider your decision to
unsubscribe from fop-dev.
Cheers,
Andreas
Re: Just a small question...
Posted by "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au>.
Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
>
> Peter / Nikolai,
>
> I think I should be the one to apologize here, as Nikolai seems to have been
> offended by one of *my* unreflected shoots from the hip --hey, sometimes I'm
> in the mood for joking. If the joke comes across bad, I appreciate it when
> people tell me that it has, offering me an opportunity to clear things out.
> In this case, the only part saddening me is Nikolai deciding to unsubscribe
> as a consequence of one simple remark, that wasn't even serious (let alone
> 'reflected' criticism)...
Andreas,
Thanks for these comments. Glen has pointed out to me, off-list, the
same thing. As I was the one who mentioned Glen by name (as neither
Bertrand nor Jeremias did) I must acknowledge that leaving the 2nd-level
quotes from you in my reply to Nikolai gave completely the wrong
impression. I owe Glen an apology for shooting from the hip.
Peter
--
Peter B. West <http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html>
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter B. West [mailto:pbwest@powerup.com.au]
<snip />
> Nikolai,
>
> Please re-consider your decision. I, for one, am extremely pleased that
> developers on other XSL-FO projects, especially ones so successful as
> RenderX, are interested enough in FOP to monitor this list, and, even
> more, to respond here.
>
> If you have watched us for a while, you will realise that Glen tends to
> shoot from the hip, and expresses himself forcefully. (I have done the
Peter / Nikolai,
I think I should be the one to apologize here, as Nikolai seems to have been
offended by one of *my* unreflected shoots from the hip --hey, sometimes I'm
in the mood for joking. If the joke comes across bad, I appreciate it when
people tell me that it has, offering me an opportunity to clear things out.
In this case, the only part saddening me is Nikolai deciding to unsubscribe
as a consequence of one simple remark, that wasn't even serious (let alone
'reflected' criticism)...
Cheers,
Andreas
Re: Contributions from competing products (was: Just a small question...)
Posted by Clay Leeds <cl...@medata.com>.
Thanks for the kind comments, Glen. I look forward to discussing the
topic of how to deal with contributions made by developers of competing
products, and more importantly, the fruition of a plan or protocol to
help guide us.
Web Maestro Clay
On Feb 6, 2004, at 3:46 PM, Glen Mazza wrote:
> --- Clay Leeds <cl...@medata.com> wrote:
> <snip/>
>> I would posit that the *issue* of how to deal with PATCH contributions
>> should be discussed so that a plan/protocol can be achieved. This
>> needs
>> to occur at least at the "project" (FOP) level (possibly ending with a
>> VOTE), but should really be done at the Apache Foundation level, since
>> other Apache projects are apparently faced with the same issues.
>>
>> Another possibly separate issue (?), is whether or not we can accept
>> contributions _to the fop-dev mailing list_ to which I would certainly
>> respond/vote an emphatic YES (we should accept posts from anyone
>> willing to post and do so graciously).
>>
>> It is my hope that Nikolai (and other esteemed members of our
>> community
>> such as G. Ken Holman) read the fop-dev & fop-user mailing lists and
>> respond at will. But we should come up with a plan we can all refer to
>> so there is no question.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Web Maestro Clay
>>
>
> Thanks, Clay, for your comments. You raised many good
> points.
>
> Glen
Re: Contributions from competing products (was: Just a small question...)
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- Clay Leeds <cl...@medata.com> wrote:
<snip/>
> I would posit that the *issue* of how to deal with
> PATCH contributions
> should be discussed so that a plan/protocol can be
> achieved. This needs
> to occur at least at the "project" (FOP) level
> (possibly ending with a
> VOTE), but should really be done at the Apache
> Foundation level, since
> other Apache projects are apparently faced with the
> same issues.
>
> Another possibly separate issue (?), is whether or
> not we can accept
> contributions _to the fop-dev mailing list_ to which
> I would certainly
> respond/vote an emphatic YES (we should accept posts
> from anyone
> willing to post and do so graciously).
>
> It is my hope that Nikolai (and other esteemed
> members of our community
> such as G. Ken Holman) read the fop-dev & fop-user
> mailing lists and
> respond at will. But we should come up with a plan
> we can all refer to
> so there is no question.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Web Maestro Clay
>
Thanks, Clay, for your comments. You raised many good
points.
Glen
__________________________________
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Contributions from competing products (was: Just a small question...)
Posted by Clay Leeds <cl...@medata.com>.
Although I am not a COMMITTER I feel I need to speak up here, having
been one of the more recent recipients of Glen's "from-the-hip"
comments. I was a bit shocked and dismayed at the lack of diplomacy in
Glen's apparent attack on Andreas' original post[*] (included below for
completeness).
(BTW Glen, I believe while Peter may've quoted Andreas' post in his
response, Peter correctly associated the primary thought process to
you. It was your "from-the-hip" comment that (I believe) brought the
issue of respect to members of our community to the fore. Please know
Glen, I appreciate your passion for FOP, and your coding contributions
(every day!). I would absolutely not want to see you go away. If you
want to continue your occasional lack of diplomacy to others in your
posts, I'll continue to take your posts with a grain of salt. However,
it is imperative that FOP retains your talents. We can't afford to lose
another good coder like yourself.)
That said, it is clear there is a gray line with regard to how to deal
with posts and possible PATCHs of code from competing products, while
maintaining the integrity of FOP. However, I don't believe that gray
line means we must refuse valuable mailing list posts from our
community (of which RenderX, AntennaHouse, xmlroff, etc. are all equal
members).
I would posit that the *issue* of how to deal with PATCH contributions
should be discussed so that a plan/protocol can be achieved. This needs
to occur at least at the "project" (FOP) level (possibly ending with a
VOTE), but should really be done at the Apache Foundation level, since
other Apache projects are apparently faced with the same issues.
Another possibly separate issue (?), is whether or not we can accept
contributions _to the fop-dev mailing list_ to which I would certainly
respond/vote an emphatic YES (we should accept posts from anyone
willing to post and do so graciously).
It is my hope that Nikolai (and other esteemed members of our community
such as G. Ken Holman) read the fop-dev & fop-user mailing lists and
respond at will. But we should come up with a plan we can all refer to
so there is no question.
Respectfully,
Web Maestro Clay
[*]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107592328129264&w=2
On Feb 6, 2004, at 5:04 AM, Glen Mazza wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Both of the remarks that Nikolai quoted [1] in leaving
> the list came from Andreas [2], not from me [3]. I
> was only stating the obvious in my warnings not to use
> their code.
>
> I don't appreciate you trying--for those who haven't
> been following the thread--to attribute Andreas'
> quotes to me.
>
> Glen
>
> [1]
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107604009912079&w=2
>
> [2]
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107600963014798&w=2
>
> [3]
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107594073923625&w=2
>
> --- "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> If you have watched us for a while, you will realise
>> that Glen tends to
>> shoot from the hip, and expresses himself
>> forcefully. (I have done the
>> same on occasion.) More than one of the regulars
>> here has been stung by
>> Glen's comments, but we understand that that is
>> Glen's manner. We value
>> his contributions greatly, and shrug off the more
>> over-the-top
>> expressions of opinion because we are used to the
>> way he says things.
>>
>> I hope you can bring yourself to do the same.
>>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
Re: (Peter) Re: Just a small question...
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
No big deal--but I do wish to add that my phrasing
that you were *intentionally* trying to attribute
Andreas' quotes to me was wrong, and I do apologize
for that. Anyway, let's get back to work...
Glen
--- "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au> wrote:
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Re: (Peter) Re: Just a small question...
Posted by "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au>.
Glen Mazza wrote:
> Peter,
>
> Both of the remarks that Nikolai quoted [1] in leaving
> the list came from Andreas [2], not from me [3]. I
> was only stating the obvious in my warnings not to use
> their code.
>
> I don't appreciate you trying--for those who haven't
> been following the thread--to attribute Andreas'
> quotes to me.
>
> Glen
Glen,
That was a very misleading oversight on my part. I was aware that the
quotes did not come from you, and should have removed them, but I forgot
before I posted. I.e., I shot from the hip. My apologies.
Nonetheless, and please don't take this amiss, I stand by the tenor of
my comments. I think you need to consider the human effects of the way
you express yourself. It's a chronic problem of email exchanges that
they are read very differently from the way they are written. A
forcefulness that can be quite inoffensive in face-to-face situations
can easily generate very defensive responses in email. I suspect that
was part of the problem in Andreas' response to you. I'm sure you know
all this, and it applies to me as well.
In retrospect, I should probably have expressed my opinions on this to
you personally, while assuring Nikolai in public of my regret that he
was most welcome on the list. Again, I shot from the hip, and I
apologise for that. That said, I hope there may be some beneficial
effects from stating those opinions in public, if someone else who reads
them becomes less likely in future to take a comment of yours the wrong
way. In that sense, my comments may take some pressure *off* you. I
hope, at least, that some such beneficial outcome may arise from this.
If there is anything else you would like me to say about this in public,
please let me know.
Peter
--
Peter B. West <http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html>
(Peter) Re: Just a small question...
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
Peter,
Both of the remarks that Nikolai quoted [1] in leaving
the list came from Andreas [2], not from me [3]. I
was only stating the obvious in my warnings not to use
their code.
I don't appreciate you trying--for those who haven't
been following the thread--to attribute Andreas'
quotes to me.
Glen
[1]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107604009912079&w=2
[2]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107600963014798&w=2
[3]
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=fop-dev&m=107594073923625&w=2
--- "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au> wrote:
>
> If you have watched us for a while, you will realise
> that Glen tends to
> shoot from the hip, and expresses himself
> forcefully. (I have done the
> same on occasion.) More than one of the regulars
> here has been stung by
> Glen's comments, but we understand that that is
> Glen's manner. We value
> his contributions greatly, and shrug off the more
> over-the-top
> expressions of opinion because we are used to the
> way he says things.
>
> I hope you can bring yourself to do the same.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
Re: Just a small question...
Posted by "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au>.
Nikolai Grigoriev wrote:
> I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not
> expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my
> previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel
> sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing.
>
>
>>RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his
>>employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether
>>they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing
>>something illegal --in which case he'll fail
>
>
> I _am_ in the position to decide myself how much technical information
> about RenderX XEP can be safely disclosed. But if you prefer to see
> any word that comes from RenderX as a fraud attempt, you're welcome.
>
>
>>- hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D )
>
>
> And they have the money - earned by writing software, not by cheating.
>
> Yours truly,
> Nikolai Grigoriev
> XEP Project Leader
> RenderX
Nikolai,
Please re-consider your decision. I, for one, am extremely pleased that
developers on other XSL-FO projects, especially ones so successful as
RenderX, are interested enough in FOP to monitor this list, and, even
more, to respond here.
If you have watched us for a while, you will realise that Glen tends to
shoot from the hip, and expresses himself forcefully. (I have done the
same on occasion.) More than one of the regulars here has been stung by
Glen's comments, but we understand that that is Glen's manner. We value
his contributions greatly, and shrug off the more over-the-top
expressions of opinion because we are used to the way he says things.
I hope you can bring yourself to do the same.
Glen raised issues which we in FOP must consider carefully. However, I
enjoy the community of interest between us and commercial developers,
and if you or, say, Tony Graham from Sun's xmlroff, wants to chime in to
the discussions I welcome the input greatly.
Peter
--
Peter B. West <http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html>
Re: apologies to Nikolai Grigoriev? (was: Just a small question...)
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@greenmail.ch>.
I agree. 100%. Thanks, Bertrand, for speaking my mind.
On 06.02.2004 08:26:58 Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> executive summary: ARE YOU GUYS CRAZY?
>
> Le Jeudi, 5 fév 2004, à 21:28 Europe/Zurich, Nikolai Grigoriev a écrit :
>
> > I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not
> > expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my
> > previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel
> > sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing. ...
>
> I'm pissed (not my usual language but cannot find a better word) at the
> discussion which caused this to happen.
>
> People, look at the archives: Nikolai has been kind enough to give
> input and share his thoughts here several times, even if it meant
> disclosing some information about RenderX at times. Thanks Nikolai.
>
> Now he's being accused of trying to inject proprietary information into
> FOP - this is plain surrealistic. I though RESPECT was a given on these
> lists but apparently it is not for everybody.
>
> In my opinion public apologies are due to Nikolai. Whether he chooses
> to stay or go is his choice, but letting him go without a word would be
> another lack of respect.
>
> Nothing personal against anyone - everyone does mistakes at times, the
> question is whether you try to fix them (or rather, fix what's left)
> and learn from them.
>
> I tried to refrain from mixing in this as I'm not contributing to FOP
> currently, but this is too much. I still care for this project and hate
> to see such things happen.
>
> -Bertrand
Jeremias Maerki
apologies to Nikolai Grigoriev? (was: Just a small question...)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
executive summary: ARE YOU GUYS CRAZY?
Le Jeudi, 5 fév 2004, à 21:28 Europe/Zurich, Nikolai Grigoriev a écrit :
> I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not
> expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my
> previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel
> sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing. ...
I'm pissed (not my usual language but cannot find a better word) at the
discussion which caused this to happen.
People, look at the archives: Nikolai has been kind enough to give
input and share his thoughts here several times, even if it meant
disclosing some information about RenderX at times. Thanks Nikolai.
Now he's being accused of trying to inject proprietary information into
FOP - this is plain surrealistic. I though RESPECT was a given on these
lists but apparently it is not for everybody.
In my opinion public apologies are due to Nikolai. Whether he chooses
to stay or go is his choice, but letting him go without a word would be
another lack of respect.
Nothing personal against anyone - everyone does mistakes at times, the
question is whether you try to fix them (or rather, fix what's left)
and learn from them.
I tried to refrain from mixing in this as I'm not contributing to FOP
currently, but this is too much. I still care for this project and hate
to see such things happen.
-Bertrand
Re: Just a small question...
Posted by Nikolai Grigoriev <gr...@renderx.com>.
I realize I was wrong when I answered to this forum - I could not
expect my words to be interpreted this way. Please disregard my
previous message; I also unsubscribe from the list, to make you feel
sure I don't induce anyone into wrongdoing.
> RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his
> employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether
> they know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing
> something illegal --in which case he'll fail
I _am_ in the position to decide myself how much technical information
about RenderX XEP can be safely disclosed. But if you prefer to see
any word that comes from RenderX as a fraud attempt, you're welcome.
> - hey, come to think of it, does RX need money or what? =D )
And they have the money - earned by writing software, not by cheating.
Yours truly,
Nikolai Grigoriev
XEP Project Leader
RenderX
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>
To: <fo...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: Just a small question...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Mazza [mailto:grm7793@yahoo.com]
>
> Please do *not* share anything you find with the
> team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches
> from the commercial implementations.
>
Ok, I won't
No offense, but I think you mistake my intentions here, Glen. If not, then
of course I appreciate your concern... Fact is, I have up to now blindly
refused to even have a glance at competing products, probably just because I
share these very same concerns.
To be honest: I was quite surprised to receive an answer from s.o. at
RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his
employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they
know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something
illegal --in which case he'll fail - hey, come to think of it, does RX need
money or what? =D )
>
> Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code
> should not be in FOP
I *will* be careful. I agree 100% with this, but I don't agree at all with
your stating that
> --nor should FOP developers even
> be looking at its internals. Matter of simple
> integrity.
I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets
fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us.
Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple
integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few
patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because
of 'simple integrity'?)
Please, don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate the nobility of your
motives here, and I too would certainly enjoy the satisfaction of having it
done the honest way, whatever that means.
> Stay away from their work--it's not worth
> it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking
> away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a
> comparable implementation.
It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention to copy anything, just
gather some ideas.
>
> I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.0000001% of RenderX
> or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code).
My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of that if we're not even
meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe it's 0.000047%
already... Besides that, you never get to see the source from commercial
implementations --source in the strict sense -, unless you're working there
or know your bytecode by heart ;) )
> If we can't provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose
> honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the
> satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by
> copying work!
>
Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I think...):
"Bad artists copy, good artists --steal."
Look at the evolution of the human species, and ask yourself: what would
have happened if every generation had to start from scratch?
What I mean is: you won't find me copying anything! (To be honest, I'm a
little offended by the mere supposition that I might be inclined to do
that... )
Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I
strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other
peoples' approaches.
Cheers,
Andreas
Re: Just a small question...
Posted by "Peter B. West" <pb...@powerup.com.au>.
Glen Mazza wrote:
> [Pardon me, Peter, for more shooting from the hip...]
Don't mention it, Glen (whose contributions we all value highly.)
Peter
--
Peter B. West <http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html>
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:a_l.delmelle@pandora.be]
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Glen Mazza [mailto:grm7793@yahoo.com]
> >
>
<snip />
> >
> > Keep in mind, Andreas, Apache Geronimo is already
> > running into headaches, apparently including
> > complaints on "architectural similarities":
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo/20031031_jboss.pdf
> >
> >
>
> Thanks for the pointer. It will surely be of great help in
> avoiding possible pitfalls.
>
Wow! Having taken a look at the doc in detail, s.o. *has* been really
careless in there.
My question: how come they didn't succeed in using the ex-JBoss committers'
expertise in avoiding this? I'd say, if they had had you on their team, this
wouldn't have happened :)
Thanks for remaining vigilant about this!
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Mazza [mailto:grm7793@yahoo.com]
>
> Yes, indeed, of course. I don't know the difference
> between US and European laws here--but most companies
Actually there is probably not that much difference WRT the law 'in se' (for
those who remember the patentability rules issue in the EU +/- half a year
ago; Apache participated in making it public).
I think the real transatlantic difference lies in the way the law is viewed
(a whole different story).
> do not allow you to share competitive information
> learned from one company to the next.
>
That is indeed so true that to me, this would classify as common sense,
rather than being a legal issue. If you have even the least bit of reason,
you'll think twice before doing so. (There's my concept of 'integrity': one
just *does not* do that; the law is there for enforcing this to people who
choose to disagree with this)
> So in the case of a disgruntled employee fired at RX
> or AH deciding to unload that company's source code
> with us--we're to stay clear away from it--have
> nothing to do with the code or with him.
>
In the case he is disgruntled, he would of course have ulterior motives we
cannot disregard.
What in the case he isn't, and started off some more projects of his own,
but could not part with XSL-FO after all. So he decides to join the
OpenSource community --and bounces into a wall?
Where's Apache's 'individual' in this case?
>
> > Just because of simple
> > integrity?
>
> I appear to value it more than you. In America, your
> integrity/character defines you, it's the beginning of
> your essence. Integrity is also something that can't
> be taught or fixed, a very important point in
> business--I've learned that once I detect problems
> with a person's integrity, best to minimize
> interaction with that individual.
>
This appears to have come across totally different than it was supposed to.
I hope my further explanations have straightened this out.
>
> Keep in mind, Andreas, Apache Geronimo is already
> running into headaches, apparently including
> complaints on "architectural similarities":
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo/20031031_jboss.pdf
>
>
Thanks for the pointer. It will surely be of great help in avoiding possible
pitfalls.
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
[Pardon me, Peter, for more shooting from the hip...]
--- "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>
wrote:
> > --nor should FOP developers even
> > be looking at its internals. Matter of simple
> > integrity.
>
> I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that
> tomorrow, someone gets
> fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to
> share some ideas with us.
> Are we really going to tell him to take a hike??
Yes, indeed, of course. I don't know the difference
between US and European laws here--but most companies
do not allow you to share competitive information
learned from one company to the next.
So in the case of a disgruntled employee fired at RX
or AH deciding to unload that company's source code
with us--we're to stay clear away from it--have
nothing to do with the code or with him.
> Just because of simple
> integrity?
I appear to value it more than you. In America, your
integrity/character defines you, it's the beginning of
your essence. Integrity is also something that can't
be taught or fixed, a very important point in
business--I've learned that once I detect problems
with a person's integrity, best to minimize
interaction with that individual.
> (Suppose that, before we find out, he has
> already submitted a few
> patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of
> these patches, because
> of 'simple integrity'?)
Indeed. Of course. In a heartbeat.
>
> It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention
> to copy anything, just
> gather some ideas.
>
Close enough to be the same thing--and it doesn't
reflect very well on you for you to try to make such a
distinction.
Keep in mind, Andreas, Apache Geronimo is already
running into headaches, apparently including
complaints on "architectural similarities":
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/geronimo/20031031_jboss.pdf
>
> My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of
> that if we're not even
> meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe
> it's 0.000047%
> already...
If nobody has looked at their code, then it is
0%--anything else is coincidence.
>
> Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I
> think...):
> "Bad artists copy, good artists --steal."
>
Thankfully, no.
Glen
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RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Mazza [mailto:grm7793@yahoo.com]
>
> I really appreciate your enthusiasm and am very happy,
> upon you finding something possibly of use to FOP on
> another ML, of your bringing it back to the team. We
> should just be careful in this particular case,
> however.
>
Well, AFAICT for now, RX didn't take it nearly as far as I would have (*if*
I were to do anything with discoveries made in their approach, whatever I
would come up with would be unrecognizable compared with the original...)
But ok, I promised to be careful, so WRT details, I'll leave it at that for
the moment.
> (BTW, you may also wish to look at Xalan, Batik, and
> Cocoon for other ideas--*that* code we should be able
> to use directly.)
>
Yes yes! Of course, these should have been the first to enter my mind...
Sorry if my postings scared you a bit.
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
I really appreciate your enthusiasm and am very happy,
upon you finding something possibly of use to FOP on
another ML, of your bringing it back to the team. We
should just be careful in this particular case,
however.
(BTW, you may also wish to look at Xalan, Batik, and
Cocoon for other ideas--*that* code we should be able
to use directly.)
Glen
--- "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>
wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andreas L. Delmelle
> [mailto:a_l.delmelle@pandora.be]
> >
> <snip />
> > Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the
> project as a whole, but I
> > strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to
> remain blind to other
> > peoples' approaches.
> >
> >
>
> To summarize: it's all about learning from *their*
> mistakes as well, not? :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andreas
>
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RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:a_l.delmelle@pandora.be]
>
<snip />
> Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I
> strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other
> peoples' approaches.
>
>
To summarize: it's all about learning from *their* mistakes as well, not? :)
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Mazza [mailto:grm7793@yahoo.com]
>
> Please do *not* share anything you find with the
> team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches
> from the commercial implementations.
>
Ok, I won't
No offense, but I think you mistake my intentions here, Glen. If not, then
of course I appreciate your concern... Fact is, I have up to now blindly
refused to even have a glance at competing products, probably just because I
share these very same concerns.
To be honest: I was quite surprised to receive an answer from s.o. at
RenderX (--still wondering which of the two is more true: either his
employers have no idea what he's doing, or he doesn't care whether they
know... or he is his own employer trying to lure me into doing something
illegal --in which case he'll fail - hey, come to think of it, does RX need
money or what? =D )
>
> Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code
> should not be in FOP
I *will* be careful. I agree 100% with this, but I don't agree at all with
your stating that
> --nor should FOP developers even
> be looking at its internals. Matter of simple
> integrity.
I think this is a bit over the top. Suppose that tomorrow, someone gets
fired at RX or AH, and this ex-employee decides to share some ideas with us.
Are we really going to tell him to take a hike?? Just because of simple
integrity? (Suppose that, before we find out, he has already submitted a few
patches that have been applied. Would we undo all of these patches, because
of 'simple integrity'?)
Please, don't get me wrong. I definitely appreciate the nobility of your
motives here, and I too would certainly enjoy the satisfaction of having it
done the honest way, whatever that means.
> Stay away from their work--it's not worth
> it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking
> away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a
> comparable implementation.
It's --should I add: of course ?- not the intention to copy anything, just
gather some ideas.
>
> I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.0000001% of RenderX
> or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code).
My point exactly: how are we going to make sure of that if we're not even
meant to look at their internals? (Who knows, maybe it's 0.000047%
already... Besides that, you never get to see the source from commercial
implementations --source in the strict sense -, unless you're working there
or know your bytecode by heart ;) )
> If we can't provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose
> honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the
> satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by
> copying work!
>
Are you by any chance familiar with (--Picasso's, I think...):
"Bad artists copy, good artists --steal."
Look at the evolution of the human species, and ask yourself: what would
have happened if every generation had to start from scratch?
What I mean is: you won't find me copying anything! (To be honest, I'm a
little offended by the mere supposition that I might be inclined to do
that... )
Again, I *do* appreciate your concerns for the project as a whole, but I
strongly doubt whether these should be a reason to remain blind to other
peoples' approaches.
Cheers,
Andreas
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by Glen Mazza <gr...@yahoo.com>.
--- "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>
wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nikolai Grigoriev [mailto:grig@renderx.com]
> >
> > If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g.
> xep372_trial.jar), you can find
> > the preprocessor stylesheet under
> com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl.
> > This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is
> always needed in the
> > classpath to run XEP.
> >
>
<snip/>
>
> I'll be following up on this, that's for sure.
>
Please do *not* share anything you find with the
team--We don't need any you-stole-our-code headaches
from the commercial implementations.
>
> Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
>
Be careful, Andreas--RenderX or AntennaHouse code
should not be in FOP--nor should FOP developers even
be looking at its internals. Matter of simple
integrity. Stay away from their work--it's not worth
it!!! At worst, it's illegal, at best you're taking
away the reward--from everyone!--of coming up with a
comparable implementation.
I don't want FOP tarnished with 0.0000001% of RenderX
or AntennaHouse code (or inspired code). If we can't
provide a comparable implementation, then let us lose
honorably. If we can, we can then enjoy the
satisfaction of having done it the honest way, not by
copying work!
Thanks,
Glen
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RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nikolai Grigoriev [mailto:grig@renderx.com]
>
> If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g. xep372_trial.jar), you can find
> the preprocessor stylesheet under com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl.
> This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is always needed in the
> classpath to run XEP.
>
Ouch! I just knew there was something obvious I was overlooking :)
> > Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this?
>
> It performs the most trivial preprocessing: strips namespaces, expands
> some shorthands, normalizes tables with no fo:table-row, etc. etc;
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
One of the kinds of things I was thinking about...
> things that are more easily expressed/debugged in XPath than in Java.
>
... and a few more.
I'll be following up on this, that's for sure.
Thanks a lot for pointing this out!
Cheers,
Andreas
Re: Just a small question...
Posted by Nikolai Grigoriev <gr...@renderx.com>.
Andreas,
Andreas L. Delmelle wrote:
> Picked this one up @ mulberry:
>
> "In RenderX XEP, an XSL FO formatter, the preprocessor is written in XSLT;
> it is a complex stylesheet of moderate size, and it does what is best to
> do in XML manipulation language."
If you look into XEP's main jar (e.g. xep372_trial.jar), you can find
the preprocessor stylesheet under com/renderx/xep/pre/processor.xsl.
This stylesheet is the main reason why XT is always needed in the classpath
to run XEP.
> Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this?
It performs the most trivial preprocessing: strips namespaces, expands
some shorthands, normalizes tables with no fo:table-row, etc. etc;
things that are more easily expressed/debugged in XPath than in Java.
Best regards,
Nikolai Grigoriev
RenderX
RE: Just a small question...
Posted by "Andreas L. Delmelle" <a_...@pandora.be>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andreas L. Delmelle [mailto:a_l.delmelle@pandora.be]
>
> Picked this one up @ mulberry:
>
> "In RenderX XEP, an XSL FO formatter, the preprocessor is written in XSLT;
> it is a complex stylesheet of moderate size, and it does what is best to
> do in XML manipulation language."
>
> Does anybody here have an idea of what exactly is meant by this?
> Is it an option that has once been considered for/is applicable to FOP?
>
Sorry if I keep nagging 'bout this, but I'm guessing it has something to do
with streamlining the FO before the actual processing... Hmm. I definitely
see *some* possibility in key'ing certain types of nodes and their
(un)resolved attributes --and it does offer the advantage that you can
transform certain subtrees to offer an input that would be swifter and less
memory-intensive to handle, to control the object instantiation rate in some
way (? if the spec is too verbose or too obscure to map into a decent,
manageable OO-structure, maybe this sort of 'preprocessing' could be of
help)
In a way, I see a link to alt-design's pull-parsing --only this part could
be handled by Xalan or a pluggable XSLT processor of the users' own
choice...
Cheers,
Andreas