Re: Netbeans expectations (Was: Re: ASF doing too much? (Was: Re: TAC))

[Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org>]

(again an explicit note for the mix of private and public mailing lists for
those hitting reply-to-all after reading the below)


Hi,

I think we are talking cross-purposes here. Trying to summarize what I believe
I'm hearing here, those actually involved, please correct if I'm totally off.

For starters, Roman, I understand how being labelled "not involved in the Netbeans
proposal" is offending to you. I do think there are a few points that Jim
raised that truly are worrying though. In my opinion it makes sense to focus
on these as opposed to discussing who is or isn't to "(git) praise" for them.


On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 03:39:26PM -0700, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > To be clear: "Netbeans stakeholders" had serious and misleading
> > information about what Apache provided and it was only brought
> > out via some backchannel discussion with someone not involved
> > in the Netbeans proposal (from the Apache side) at all...

For me this gets directly to the point: When I started being involved as more
than a user at Apache one of the first principles I learnt was that essentially
"anything that didn't happen on the mailing list didn't happen".

If one of our projects (TLP, incubating, prospective) had a flawed understanding
of what the ASF provides I would expect this discussion to be important enough
to have it on some archived mailing list.


> I am actually offended by your categorization of me as the one who
> is "not involved in the Netbeans proposal (from the  Apache side) at all..."

@Roman: If you step back and re-read the statement, maybe you can follow my
first intuition that this could actually be seen as praise to the person who
brought this issue up despite not being officially affiliated/ involved with
the Netbeans proposal. (@Jim, maybe I'm totally off here interpreting your words
waaay too optimistically ;) )


> Putting aside the amount of personal time I've spent on the phone,
> online, etc. trying to help this community calibrate their expectations
> about transition to ASF

I remember that whenever someone at Mahout was talking about having a discussion
on IRC, Hipchat, Hangouts, Slack, on the phone or whatever your favourite
sync communication tool was people popped up dragging the discussion (or at
least the decisions made during the discussion) back to our canonical form of
communication which happened to be the public mailing list.

Back there it was for several good reasons: People who weren't in the same time
zone got a chance to chime into the discussion, people late to the discussion -
even years late - could still participate, if the same discussion ever came up
again we could refer people back to the archives instead of repeating previous
wisdom.

I believe those reasons are also valid for discussions happening around projects
going through incubation (including as early as around the time of proposal
submission). On top I can see at least three more reasons why in the incubator
we should err on the "put too much stuff on the mailing list instead of too
little" actually:

1) In essence the incubator is where we "teach" new incoming projects how to
collaborate. If we agree that the "if it didn't happen on the mailing list it
didn't happen" actually is a thing, I believe we should act as role models for
that principle so new projects have good examples to follow.

2) Netbeans is a very publicly visible project. It has many downstream users.
There already is quite some controversial discussions around it going through
incubation outside the ASF. I believe this makes it even more important to put
as much information around how the project together with us arrived at certain
decisions out publicly. Not only for others to follow now, but also to reference
back to in the future.

3) You write how the topic of "what value does the ASF provide to my project"
comes up quite frequently in the incubator. Unless already done, I would like to
see this documented under some stable URL to point people to. Not only do I get
this question to from time to time, it might also help other projects thinking
about going to the ASF make an informed decision.


Thanks for reading this far, hope you find the above helpful,
Isabel


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Re: Netbeans expectations (Was: Re: ASF doing too much? (Was: Re: TAC))

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@apache.org>]

On 2016-09-28 05:20 (-0400), Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> wrote: 
> 

> @Roman: If you step back and re-read the statement, maybe you can follow my
> first intuition that this could actually be seen as praise to the person who
> brought this issue up despite not being officially affiliated/ involved with
> the Netbeans proposal. (@Jim, maybe I'm totally off here interpreting your words
> waaay too optimistically ;) )

Nope, not at all! That's how I meant it. Thanks for seeing that.


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Re: Netbeans expectations (Was: Re: ASF doing too much? (Was: Re: TAC))

[Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>]

(dropping board@, the part that I'm addressing is not relevant there)

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...3) You write how the topic of "what value does the ASF provide to my project"
> comes up quite frequently in the incubator. Unless already done, I would like to
> see this documented under some stable URL to point people to....

That's a great idea - either at incubator.apache.org but that needs to
be maintained over time, or as a blog post at
https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/ (or /incubator) where you make no
guarantees that the information stays up to date.

-Bertrand

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Re: Netbeans expectations (Was: Re: ASF doing too much? (Was: Re: TAC))

[Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>]

> 3) You write how the topic of "what value does the ASF provide to my
project"
comes up quite frequently in the incubator. Unless already done, I would
like to
see this documented under some stable URL to point people to. Not only do I
get
this question to from time to time, it might also help other projects
thinking
about going to the ASF make an informed decision.

+1

As somebody just getting used to Apache I would find such a document
interesting.

Pe miercuri, 28 septembrie 2016, Isabel Drost-Fromm <is...@apache.org> a
scris:

>
> (again an explicit note for the mix of private and public mailing lists for
> those hitting reply-to-all after reading the below)
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I think we are talking cross-purposes here. Trying to summarize what I
> believe
> I'm hearing here, those actually involved, please correct if I'm totally
> off.
>
> For starters, Roman, I understand how being labelled "not involved in the
> Netbeans
> proposal" is offending to you. I do think there are a few points that Jim
> raised that truly are worrying though. In my opinion it makes sense to
> focus
> on these as opposed to discussing who is or isn't to "(git) praise" for
> them.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 03:39:26PM -0700, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Jim Jagielski <jim@jagunet.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > To be clear: "Netbeans stakeholders" had serious and misleading
> > > information about what Apache provided and it was only brought
> > > out via some backchannel discussion with someone not involved
> > > in the Netbeans proposal (from the Apache side) at all...
>
> For me this gets directly to the point: When I started being involved as
> more
> than a user at Apache one of the first principles I learnt was that
> essentially
> "anything that didn't happen on the mailing list didn't happen".
>
> If one of our projects (TLP, incubating, prospective) had a flawed
> understanding
> of what the ASF provides I would expect this discussion to be important
> enough
> to have it on some archived mailing list.
>
>
> > I am actually offended by your categorization of me as the one who
> > is "not involved in the Netbeans proposal (from the  Apache side) at
> all..."
>
> @Roman: If you step back and re-read the statement, maybe you can follow my
> first intuition that this could actually be seen as praise to the person
> who
> brought this issue up despite not being officially affiliated/ involved
> with
> the Netbeans proposal. (@Jim, maybe I'm totally off here interpreting your
> words
> waaay too optimistically ;) )
>
>
> > Putting aside the amount of personal time I've spent on the phone,
> > online, etc. trying to help this community calibrate their expectations
> > about transition to ASF
>
> I remember that whenever someone at Mahout was talking about having a
> discussion
> on IRC, Hipchat, Hangouts, Slack, on the phone or whatever your favourite
> sync communication tool was people popped up dragging the discussion (or at
> least the decisions made during the discussion) back to our canonical form
> of
> communication which happened to be the public mailing list.
>
> Back there it was for several good reasons: People who weren't in the same
> time
> zone got a chance to chime into the discussion, people late to the
> discussion -
> even years late - could still participate, if the same discussion ever
> came up
> again we could refer people back to the archives instead of repeating
> previous
> wisdom.
>
> I believe those reasons are also valid for discussions happening around
> projects
> going through incubation (including as early as around the time of proposal
> submission). On top I can see at least three more reasons why in the
> incubator
> we should err on the "put too much stuff on the mailing list instead of too
> little" actually:
>
> 1) In essence the incubator is where we "teach" new incoming projects how
> to
> collaborate. If we agree that the "if it didn't happen on the mailing list
> it
> didn't happen" actually is a thing, I believe we should act as role models
> for
> that principle so new projects have good examples to follow.
>
> 2) Netbeans is a very publicly visible project. It has many downstream
> users.
> There already is quite some controversial discussions around it going
> through
> incubation outside the ASF. I believe this makes it even more important to
> put
> as much information around how the project together with us arrived at
> certain
> decisions out publicly. Not only for others to follow now, but also to
> reference
> back to in the future.
>
> 3) You write how the topic of "what value does the ASF provide to my
> project"
> comes up quite frequently in the incubator. Unless already done, I would
> like to
> see this documented under some stable URL to point people to. Not only do
> I get
> this question to from time to time, it might also help other projects
> thinking
> about going to the ASF make an informed decision.
>
>
> Thanks for reading this far, hope you find the above helpful,
> Isabel
>
>
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> <javascript:;>
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>

-- 

--emi