The state of Sirona

["John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>]

All,

I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have to
take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do next.

- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd attempt
at monthly).
- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of activity
on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )

I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force a
project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.

So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to regroup?

John

Re: The state of Sirona

[Romain Manni-Bucau <rm...@gmail.com>]

Le 16 avr. 2017 06:58, "Niclas Hedhman" <ni...@hedhman.org> a écrit :

One could also ask the question; Considering how hyped "devops" culture is
right now, the central role that monitoring and visualization of that is
for devops, How come this project can't attract hordes of people? Is there
something inherent in Apache Incubator that interested parties have some
aversion of "incubating" or is it ASF as a whole isn't the right place for
these kinds of efforts?

The answer of "Too many out there", didn't seemed to have played a role in
the days of XML and WebApp frameworks, so I doubt that is the cause.



Adopters mainly were 100% java in term of philosophy or starting from
nothing so my (personal) explanation is devops is trendy but game was
already played in term of tool adoption. Not bringing anything really new
made our proposal having this characteristic. Just my interpretation but
dont think it is far to the reality.

Also think we were really bad in term of comm and, not sure why, comm
channels were always elsewhere than sirona@ (irc, direct ping, tomee
channels, ....).




Cheers
Niclas

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:55 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> "failure".
>
> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
>
> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
helping
> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there are
> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> determine which outcome it will have.
>
> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
sometimes
> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache license.
> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
>
> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
>
> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
>
> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking
> at
> > the various public sources, I see:
> >
> >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> >    - No description (readme) in github
> >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> project's
> >    home page
> >
> > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
world
> > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > retirement.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John
> > >
> > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > >
> > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity
and
> > > regarding the community around, we should really think about
retirement
> > of
> > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
project
> > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
feature
> > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not
> the
> > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a
> very
> > > limited community.
> > >
> > > My €0.01 ;)
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > JB
> > >
> > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> johndament@apache.org
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >All,
> > > >
> > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have
> to
> > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > > >next.
> > > >
> > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > > >attempt
> > > >at monthly).
> > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > >activity
> > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in
6
> > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > >
> > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force
> a
> > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door,
but
> > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
forward.
> > > >
> > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> regroup?
> > > >
> > > >John
> > >
> >
>



--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: The state of Sirona

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

One could also ask the question; Considering how hyped "devops" culture is
right now, the central role that monitoring and visualization of that is
for devops, How come this project can't attract hordes of people? Is there
something inherent in Apache Incubator that interested parties have some
aversion of "incubating" or is it ASF as a whole isn't the right place for
these kinds of efforts?

The answer of "Too many out there", didn't seemed to have played a role in
the days of XML and WebApp frameworks, so I doubt that is the cause.


Cheers
Niclas

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:55 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> "failure".
>
> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
>
> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to helping
> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there are
> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> determine which outcome it will have.
>
> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and sometimes
> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache license.
> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
>
> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
>
> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
>
> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking
> at
> > the various public sources, I see:
> >
> >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> >    - No description (readme) in github
> >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> project's
> >    home page
> >
> > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the world
> > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > retirement.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John
> > >
> > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > >
> > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and
> > > regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement
> > of
> > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project
> > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature
> > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not
> the
> > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a
> very
> > > limited community.
> > >
> > > My €0.01 ;)
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > JB
> > >
> > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> johndament@apache.org
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >All,
> > > >
> > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have
> to
> > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > > >next.
> > > >
> > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > > >attempt
> > > >at monthly).
> > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > >activity
> > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
> > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > >
> > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force
> a
> > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
> > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
> > > >
> > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> regroup?
> > > >
> > > >John
> > >
> >
>



-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: The state of Sirona

[siddharth anand <sa...@apache.org>]

Nicely put.
Sid

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> "failure".
>
> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
>
> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to helping
> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there are
> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> determine which outcome it will have.
>
> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and sometimes
> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache license.
> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
>
> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
>
> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
>
> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking
> at
> > the various public sources, I see:
> >
> >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> >    - No description (readme) in github
> >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> project's
> >    home page
> >
> > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the world
> > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > retirement.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John
> > >
> > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > >
> > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and
> > > regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement
> > of
> > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project
> > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature
> > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not
> the
> > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a
> very
> > > limited community.
> > >
> > > My €0.01 ;)
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > JB
> > >
> > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> johndament@apache.org
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >All,
> > > >
> > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have
> to
> > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > > >next.
> > > >
> > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > > >attempt
> > > >at monthly).
> > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > >activity
> > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
> > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > >
> > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force
> a
> > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
> > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
> > > >
> > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> regroup?
> > > >
> > > >John
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

Sounds totally right to me.



On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:28 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:

> I let this sit for a couple of days to see if anything changed either on
> this thread or within Sirona.  While I can see there being some concerns
> with those who are semi-active within Sirona, there's been no concrete path
> forward.
>
> So I want to propose the following, give Sirona time to identify a TLP
> sponsor to graduate into, if that doesn't work, the IPMC move unilaterally
> to retire the podling, indicating that they may move development into a
> public area with the name Sirona.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> John
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 2:20 AM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Retaining trademarks isn't required, especially if they aren't attached
> to
> > strong project.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains
> trademarks...
> > >
> > > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <pt...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > +1 for retirement.
> > > >
> > > > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the
> place
> > > > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> > > > proliferating among the IPMC.
> > > >
> > > > -Taylor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> > > > >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> > > > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the
> > apache
> > > > way
> > > > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <
> > johndament@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Well said.
> > > > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently
> > > struggle
> > > > >>> as a
> > > > >>>> TLP.
> > > > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading
> > your
> > > > >>> response wrong.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments
> > in
> > > > some
> > > > >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the
> > > apache
> > > > >>> way.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller
> > > projects.
> > > > >> If
> > > > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small
> > change
> > > > and
> > > > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day
> > voting
> > > > >>> periods seems crazy.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid
> > iterate,
> > > > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub
> becomes
> > > > much
> > > > >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate
> > and
> > > > >> seem
> > > > >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's
> of
> > > > users.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why
> the
> > > > >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's
> > been
> > > > >> here
> > > > >>> for too long.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache,
> moving
> > > > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> > > > >> community.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <
> > ted.dunning@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of
> > affairs
> > > > >> is a
> > > > >>>>> "failure".
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> > > > >> incubation.
> > > > >>> To
> > > > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not
> a
> > > bug.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't
> committed
> > to
> > > > >>>> helping
> > > > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's.
> But
> > > > >> there
> > > > >>>> are
> > > > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can
> > really
> > > > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
> > > > >> podling
> > > > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a
> good
> > > TLP.
> > > > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit
> and
> > > > >>>> sometimes
> > > > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't
> exactly
> > > > >> know.
> > > > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there
> > will
> > > > >> be
> > > > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the
> Apache
> > > > >>>> license.
> > > > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is
> time
> > to
> > > > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any
> more.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when
> > > there
> > > > >>> is
> > > > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever
> > > succeed,
> > > > >>> but
> > > > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of
> > admission.
> > > We
> > > > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a
> > > variety
> > > > >> of
> > > > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our
> initial
> > > > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every
> project
> > > > >> that
> > > > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
> > > > >> another
> > > > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was
> doubt.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > > > >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a
> community.
> > > > >>> Looking
> > > > >>>>> at
> > > > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > > > >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > > > >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > > > >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> > > > >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on
> the
> > > > >>>>> project's
> > > > >>>>>>   home page
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest
> in
> > > the
> > > > >>>> world
> > > > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time
> for
> > > > >>>>>> retirement.
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> > > > >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Hi John
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
> > > > >> table.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> > > > >> activity
> > > > >>>> and
> > > > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about
> > > > >>>> retirement
> > > > >>>>>> of
> > > > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a
> "stable"
> > > > >>>> project
> > > > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see
> questions,
> > > > >>>> feature
> > > > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously
> > it's
> > > > >>> not
> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use
> cases
> > > > >> in
> > > > >>> a
> > > > >>>>> very
> > > > >>>>>>> limited community.
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> Regards
> > > > >>>>>>> JB
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > > > >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >>>>>>>> All,
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC
> > we
> > > > >>> have
> > > > >>>>> to
> > > > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out
> what
> > > > >> to
> > > > >>> do
> > > > >>>>>>>> next.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is
> > their
> > > > >>> 3rd
> > > > >>>>>>>> attempt
> > > > >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> > > > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little
> bit
> > of
> > > > >>>>>>>> activity
> > > > >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
> > > > >> contribution
> > > > >>>> in 6
> > > > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want
> > to
> > > > >>>> force
> > > > >>>>> a
> > > > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced
> that
> > > > >>>> there's
> > > > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> > > > >>>> forward.
> > > > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
> > > > >> door,
> > > > >>>> but
> > > > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to
> move
> > > > >>>> forward.
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time
> to
> > > > >>>>> regroup?
> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>>> John
> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

["John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>]

I let this sit for a couple of days to see if anything changed either on
this thread or within Sirona.  While I can see there being some concerns
with those who are semi-active within Sirona, there's been no concrete path
forward.

So I want to propose the following, give Sirona time to identify a TLP
sponsor to graduate into, if that doesn't work, the IPMC move unilaterally
to retire the podling, indicating that they may move development into a
public area with the name Sirona.

Thoughts?

John

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 2:20 AM Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Retaining trademarks isn't required, especially if they aren't attached to
> strong project.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> wrote:
>
> > The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains trademarks...
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <pt...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1 for retirement.
> > >
> > > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place
> > > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> > > proliferating among the IPMC.
> > >
> > > -Taylor
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> > > >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> > > >>
> > > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> > > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the
> apache
> > > way
> > > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <
> johndament@apache.org
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Well said.
> > > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently
> > struggle
> > > >>> as a
> > > >>>> TLP.
> > > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading
> your
> > > >>> response wrong.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments
> in
> > > some
> > > >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the
> > apache
> > > >>> way.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller
> > projects.
> > > >> If
> > > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small
> change
> > > and
> > > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day
> voting
> > > >>> periods seems crazy.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid
> iterate,
> > > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes
> > > much
> > > >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate
> and
> > > >> seem
> > > >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of
> > > users.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> > > >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's
> been
> > > >> here
> > > >>> for too long.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> > > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> > > >> community.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <
> ted.dunning@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of
> affairs
> > > >> is a
> > > >>>>> "failure".
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> > > >> incubation.
> > > >>> To
> > > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a
> > bug.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed
> to
> > > >>>> helping
> > > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But
> > > >> there
> > > >>>> are
> > > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can
> really
> > > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
> > > >> podling
> > > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good
> > TLP.
> > > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> > > >>>> sometimes
> > > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
> > > >> know.
> > > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there
> will
> > > >> be
> > > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> > > >>>> license.
> > > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time
> to
> > > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when
> > there
> > > >>> is
> > > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever
> > succeed,
> > > >>> but
> > > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of
> admission.
> > We
> > > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a
> > variety
> > > >> of
> > > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
> > > >> that
> > > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
> > > >> another
> > > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > > >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> > > >>> Looking
> > > >>>>> at
> > > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > > >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > > >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > > >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> > > >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> > > >>>>> project's
> > > >>>>>>   home page
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in
> > the
> > > >>>> world
> > > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > > >>>>>> retirement.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> > > >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Hi John
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
> > > >> table.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> > > >> activity
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about
> > > >>>> retirement
> > > >>>>>> of
> > > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> > > >>>> project
> > > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> > > >>>> feature
> > > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously
> it's
> > > >>> not
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases
> > > >> in
> > > >>> a
> > > >>>>> very
> > > >>>>>>> limited community.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Regards
> > > >>>>>>> JB
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > > >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>> All,
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC
> we
> > > >>> have
> > > >>>>> to
> > > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what
> > > >> to
> > > >>> do
> > > >>>>>>>> next.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is
> their
> > > >>> 3rd
> > > >>>>>>>> attempt
> > > >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> > > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit
> of
> > > >>>>>>>> activity
> > > >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
> > > >> contribution
> > > >>>> in 6
> > > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want
> to
> > > >>>> force
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> > > >>>> there's
> > > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> > > >>>> forward.
> > > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
> > > >> door,
> > > >>>> but
> > > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> > > >>>> forward.
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> > > >>>>> regroup?
> > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> John
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

Retaining trademarks isn't required, especially if they aren't attached to
strong project.



On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:

> The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains trademarks...
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <pt...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1 for retirement.
> >
> > There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place
> > from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> > proliferating among the IPMC.
> >
> > -Taylor
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> > >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> > >>
> > >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> > >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache
> > way
> > >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <johndament@apache.org
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Well said.
> > >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently
> struggle
> > >>> as a
> > >>>> TLP.
> > >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
> > >>> response wrong.
> > >>>
> > >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in
> > some
> > >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the
> apache
> > >>> way.
> > >>>
> > >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller
> projects.
> > >> If
> > >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change
> > and
> > >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
> > >>> periods seems crazy.
> > >>>
> > >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
> > >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes
> > much
> > >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and
> > >> seem
> > >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of
> > users.
> > >>>
> > >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> > >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been
> > >> here
> > >>> for too long.
> > >>>
> > >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> > >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> > >> community.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <ted.dunning@gmail.com
> >
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs
> > >> is a
> > >>>>> "failure".
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> > >> incubation.
> > >>> To
> > >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a
> bug.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
> > >>>> helping
> > >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But
> > >> there
> > >>>> are
> > >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> > >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
> > >> podling
> > >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good
> TLP.
> > >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> > >>>> sometimes
> > >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
> > >> know.
> > >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will
> > >> be
> > >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> > >>>> license.
> > >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> > >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when
> there
> > >>> is
> > >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever
> succeed,
> > >>> but
> > >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission.
> We
> > >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a
> variety
> > >> of
> > >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
> > >> that
> > >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
> > >> another
> > >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> > >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> > >>> Looking
> > >>>>> at
> > >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> > >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> > >>>>> project's
> > >>>>>>   home page
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in
> the
> > >>>> world
> > >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > >>>>>> retirement.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Best regards,
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> > >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi John
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
> > >> table.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> > >> activity
> > >>>> and
> > >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about
> > >>>> retirement
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> > >>>> project
> > >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> > >>>> feature
> > >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's
> > >>> not
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases
> > >> in
> > >>> a
> > >>>>> very
> > >>>>>>> limited community.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Regards
> > >>>>>>> JB
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> All,
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we
> > >>> have
> > >>>>> to
> > >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what
> > >> to
> > >>> do
> > >>>>>>>> next.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is their
> > >>> 3rd
> > >>>>>>>> attempt
> > >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> > >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > >>>>>>>> activity
> > >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
> > >> contribution
> > >>>> in 6
> > >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
> > >>>> force
> > >>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> > >>>> there's
> > >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> > >>>> forward.
> > >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
> > >> door,
> > >>>> but
> > >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> > >>>> forward.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> > >>>>> regroup?
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> John
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>]

The "wrong" part (from a project's PoV) is that ASF retains trademarks...

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 10:56 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <pt...@gmail.com> wrote:

> +1 for retirement.
>
> There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place
> from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be
> proliferating among the IPMC.
>
> -Taylor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> >> I do think my statement was unclear though.
> >>
> >> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> >> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache
> way
> >> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Well said.
> >>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle
> >>> as a
> >>>> TLP.
> >>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
> >>>>
> >>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
> >>> response wrong.
> >>>
> >>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in
> some
> >>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache
> >>> way.
> >>>
> >>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects.
> >> If
> >>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change
> and
> >>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
> >>> periods seems crazy.
> >>>
> >>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
> >>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes
> much
> >>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and
> >> seem
> >>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of
> users.
> >>>
> >>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> >>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been
> >> here
> >>> for too long.
> >>>
> >>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> >>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> >> community.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs
> >> is a
> >>>>> "failure".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> >> incubation.
> >>> To
> >>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
> >>>> helping
> >>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But
> >> there
> >>>> are
> >>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> >>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
> >> podling
> >>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> >>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> >>>> sometimes
> >>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
> >> know.
> >>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will
> >> be
> >>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> >>>> license.
> >>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> >>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there
> >>> is
> >>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed,
> >>> but
> >>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> >>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety
> >> of
> >>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> >>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
> >> that
> >>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
> >> another
> >>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> >> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> >>> Looking
> >>>>> at
> >>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> >>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> >>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> >>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
> >>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> >>>>> project's
> >>>>>>   home page
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
> >>>> world
> >>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> >>>>>> retirement.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Pierre Smits
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> >>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> >>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> >>> jb@nanthrax.net
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi John
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
> >> table.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> >> activity
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about
> >>>> retirement
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> >>>> project
> >>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> >>>> feature
> >>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's
> >>> not
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases
> >> in
> >>> a
> >>>>> very
> >>>>>>> limited community.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>> JB
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> >>>>> johndament@apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> All,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we
> >>> have
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what
> >> to
> >>> do
> >>>>>>>> next.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is their
> >>> 3rd
> >>>>>>>> attempt
> >>>>>>>> at monthly).
> >>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> >>>>>>>> activity
> >>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> >>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
> >> contribution
> >>>> in 6
> >>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
> >>>> force
> >>>>> a
> >>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> >>>> there's
> >>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> >>>> forward.
> >>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
> >> door,
> >>>> but
> >>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> >>>> forward.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> >>>>> regroup?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> John
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>


-- 
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://polygene.apache.org - New Energy for Java

Re: The state of Sirona

["P. Taylor Goetz" <pt...@gmail.com>]

+1 for retirement.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a podling returning to the place from whence it came. I'm encouraged that that sentiment seems to be proliferating among the IPMC.

-Taylor







> On Apr 16, 2017, at 11:33 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?
> 
> 
>> On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
>> I do think my statement was unclear though.
>> 
>> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
>> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache way
>> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Well said.
>>>> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle
>>> as a
>>>> TLP.
>>>> This is actually a success of sorts.
>>>> 
>>>> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
>>> response wrong.
>>> 
>>> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in some
>>> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache
>>> way.
>>> 
>>> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects.
>> If
>>> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change and
>>> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
>>> periods seems crazy.
>>> 
>>> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
>>> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes much
>>> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and
>> seem
>>> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of users.
>>> 
>>> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
>>> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been
>> here
>>> for too long.
>>> 
>>> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
>>> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
>> community.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs
>> is a
>>>>> "failure".
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
>> incubation.
>>> To
>>>>> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
>>>> helping
>>>>> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But
>> there
>>>> are
>>>>> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
>>>>> determine which outcome it will have.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
>> podling
>>>>> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
>>>>> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
>>>> sometimes
>>>>> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
>> know.
>>>>> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will
>> be
>>>>> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
>>>> license.
>>>>> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
>>>>> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there
>>> is
>>>>> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed,
>>> but
>>>>> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
>>>>> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety
>> of
>>>>> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
>>>>> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
>> that
>>>>> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
>> another
>>>>> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
>>>>> 
>>>>> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
>> pierre.smits@gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
>>> Looking
>>>>> at
>>>>>> the various public sources, I see:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
>>>>>>   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
>>>>>>   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
>>>>>>   - No description (readme) in github
>>>>>>   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
>>>>> project's
>>>>>>   home page
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
>>>> world
>>>>>> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
>>>>>> retirement.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pierre Smits
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
>>>>>> OFBiz based solutions & services
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
>>>>>> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
>>> jb@nanthrax.net
>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi John
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
>> table.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
>> activity
>>>> and
>>>>>>> regarding the community around, we should really think about
>>>> retirement
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
>>>> project
>>>>>>> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
>>>> feature
>>>>>>> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's
>>> not
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases
>> in
>>> a
>>>>> very
>>>>>>> limited community.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My €0.01 ;)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> JB
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
>>>>> johndament@apache.org
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we
>>> have
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what
>> to
>>> do
>>>>>>>> next.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> - The podling has not reported in several months (this is their
>>> 3rd
>>>>>>>> attempt
>>>>>>>> at monthly).
>>>>>>>> - Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
>>>>>>>> activity
>>>>>>>> on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
>>>>>>>> - There is some limited project history, but no real
>> contribution
>>>> in 6
>>>>>>>> months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
>>>> force
>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
>>>> there's
>>>>>>>> enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
>>>> forward.
>>>>>>>> They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
>> door,
>>>> but
>>>>>>>> other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
>>>> forward.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
>>>>> regroup?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org

Re: The state of Sirona

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

Sounds like consensus is coming together, then. Sound right?


On Apr 16, 2017 06:03, "larry mccay" <lm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
> I do think my statement was unclear though.
>
> I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
> Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache way
> isn't really going to work for them at the moment.
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Well said.
> > > It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle
> > as a
> > > TLP.
> > > This is actually a success of sorts.
> > >
> > > At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> > >
> > >
> > I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
> > response wrong.
> >
> > Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in some
> > cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache
> > way.
> >
> > There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects.
> If
> > you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change and
> > cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
> > periods seems crazy.
> >
> > For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
> > release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes much
> > more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and
> seem
> > like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of users.
> >
> > We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> > incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been
> here
> > for too long.
> >
> > Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> > development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger
> community.
> >
> >
> > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs
> is a
> > > > "failure".
> > > >
> > > > It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for
> incubation.
> > To
> > > > my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
> > > helping
> > > > become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But
> there
> > > are
> > > > lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> > > > determine which outcome it will have.
> > > >
> > > > It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new
> podling
> > > > really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> > > > Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> > > sometimes
> > > > it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly
> know.
> > > > There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will
> be
> > > > cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> > > license.
> > > > In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> > > > graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> > > >
> > > > As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there
> > is
> > > > doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed,
> > but
> > > > it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> > > > should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > > >
> > > > If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety
> of
> > > > outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > > > generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project
> that
> > > > becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is
> another
> > > > successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> > > >
> > > > IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <
> pierre.smits@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> > Looking
> > > > at
> > > > > the various public sources, I see:
> > > > >
> > > > >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > > > >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > > > >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > > > >    - No description (readme) in github
> > > > >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> > > > project's
> > > > >    home page
> > > > >
> > > > > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
> > > world
> > > > > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > > > > retirement.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Pierre Smits
> > > > >
> > > > > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > > > OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > > >
> > > > > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > > > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> > jb@nanthrax.net
> > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi John
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the
> table.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the
> activity
> > > and
> > > > > > regarding the community around, we should really think about
> > > retirement
> > > > > of
> > > > > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> > > project
> > > > > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> > > feature
> > > > > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's
> > not
> > > > the
> > > > > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases
> in
> > a
> > > > very
> > > > > > limited community.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My €0.01 ;)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards
> > > > > > JB
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > > > johndament@apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we
> > have
> > > > to
> > > > > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what
> to
> > do
> > > > > > >next.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their
> > 3rd
> > > > > > >attempt
> > > > > > >at monthly).
> > > > > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > > > > >activity
> > > > > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > > > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real
> contribution
> > > in 6
> > > > > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
> > > force
> > > > a
> > > > > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> > > there's
> > > > > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> > > forward.
> > > > > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the
> door,
> > > but
> > > > > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> > > forward.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> > > > regroup?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >John
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>]

Hmmmm - interesting points about incubator vs github and overhead.
I do think my statement was unclear though.

I was saying exactly the same thing about struggling podlings.
Much better to find out in the incubator than as a TLP that the apache way
isn't really going to work for them at the moment.


On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 7:21 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Well said.
> > It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle
> as a
> > TLP.
> > This is actually a success of sorts.
> >
> > At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
> >
> >
> I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
> response wrong.
>
> Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in some
> cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache
> way.
>
> There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects.  If
> you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change and
> cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
> periods seems crazy.
>
> For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
> release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes much
> more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and seem
> like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of users.
>
> We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
> incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been here
> for too long.
>
> Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
> development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger community.
>
>
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> > > "failure".
> > >
> > > It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation.
> To
> > > my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
> > >
> > > Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
> > helping
> > > become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there
> > are
> > > lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> > > determine which outcome it will have.
> > >
> > > It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> > > really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> > > Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> > sometimes
> > > it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> > > There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> > > cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> > license.
> > > In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> > > graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> > >
> > > As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there
> is
> > > doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed,
> but
> > > it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> > > should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> > >
> > > If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> > > outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > > generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> > > becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> > > successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> > >
> > > IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pierre.smits@gmail.com
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community.
> Looking
> > > at
> > > > the various public sources, I see:
> > > >
> > > >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > > >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > > >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > > >    - No description (readme) in github
> > > >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> > > project's
> > > >    home page
> > > >
> > > > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
> > world
> > > > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > > > retirement.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pierre Smits
> > > >
> > > > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > > OFBiz based solutions & services
> > > >
> > > > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <
> jb@nanthrax.net
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi John
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > > > >
> > > > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity
> > and
> > > > > regarding the community around, we should really think about
> > retirement
> > > > of
> > > > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> > project
> > > > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> > feature
> > > > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's
> not
> > > the
> > > > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in
> a
> > > very
> > > > > limited community.
> > > > >
> > > > > My €0.01 ;)
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > > JB
> > > > >
> > > > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > > johndament@apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we
> have
> > > to
> > > > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to
> do
> > > > > >next.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their
> 3rd
> > > > > >attempt
> > > > > >at monthly).
> > > > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > > > >activity
> > > > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution
> > in 6
> > > > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
> > force
> > > a
> > > > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> > there's
> > > > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> > forward.
> > > > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door,
> > but
> > > > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> > forward.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> > > regroup?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

["John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>]

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 3:04 PM larry mccay <lm...@apache.org> wrote:

> Well said.
> It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle as a
> TLP.
> This is actually a success of sorts.
>
> At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)
>
>
I may be reading Ted's email differently.  Or I might be reading your
response wrong.

Retirement isn't a failure.  Podlings are meant to be experiments in some
cases.  Can I build a strong enough community, can we follow the apache way.

There's a notion that the incubator adds over head to smaller projects.  If
you're a one-or-two developer group, who can commit one small change and
cut a release in an afternoon, coming to apache with our 3 day voting
periods seems crazy.

For small projects like Sirona, they may benefit from rapid iterate,
release, feedback cycles. This is where tooling like GitHub becomes much
more useful.  Once you get wikis, websites going, you can iterate and seem
like a strong community.  Until you become a community of 100's of users.

We don't want to see struggling podlings graduate.  This is why the
incubator has no time limit.  We do get worried when a podling's been here
for too long.

Basically, Sirona may see some success retiring from Apache, moving
development to github, until they've been able to build a bigger community.


> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> > "failure".
> >
> > It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
> > my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
> >
> > Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to
> helping
> > become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there
> are
> > lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> > determine which outcome it will have.
> >
> > It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> > really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> > Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and
> sometimes
> > it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> > There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> > cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache
> license.
> > In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> > graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
> >
> > As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
> > doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
> > it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> > should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
> >
> > If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> > outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> > generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> > becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> > successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
> >
> > IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking
> > at
> > > the various public sources, I see:
> > >
> > >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> > >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> > >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> > >    - No description (readme) in github
> > >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> > project's
> > >    home page
> > >
> > > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the
> world
> > > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > > retirement.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > >
> > > Pierre Smits
> > >
> > > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > > OFBiz based solutions & services
> > >
> > > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> > >
> > > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb@nanthrax.net
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi John
> > > >
> > > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > > >
> > > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity
> and
> > > > regarding the community around, we should really think about
> retirement
> > > of
> > > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable"
> project
> > > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions,
> feature
> > > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not
> > the
> > > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a
> > very
> > > > limited community.
> > > >
> > > > My €0.01 ;)
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > JB
> > > >
> > > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> > johndament@apache.org
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >All,
> > > > >
> > > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have
> > to
> > > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > > > >next.
> > > > >
> > > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > > > >attempt
> > > > >at monthly).
> > > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > > >activity
> > > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution
> in 6
> > > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > > >
> > > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to
> force
> > a
> > > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that
> there's
> > > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going
> forward.
> > > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door,
> but
> > > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move
> forward.
> > > > >
> > > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> > regroup?
> > > > >
> > > > >John
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[larry mccay <lm...@apache.org>]

Well said.
It is healthy to not have a podling graduate and subsequently struggle as a
TLP.
This is actually a success of sorts.

At least until a majority of podlings have trouble. :)

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
> "failure".
>
> It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
> my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.
>
> Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to helping
> become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there are
> lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
> determine which outcome it will have.
>
> It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
> really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
> Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and sometimes
> it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
> There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
> cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache license.
> In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
> graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.
>
> As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
> doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
> it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
> should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.
>
> If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
> outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
> generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
> becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
> successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.
>
> IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking
> at
> > the various public sources, I see:
> >
> >    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
> >    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
> >    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
> >    - No description (readme) in github
> >    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the
> project's
> >    home page
> >
> > I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the world
> > beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> > retirement.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Pierre Smits
> >
> > ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> > OFBiz based solutions & services
> >
> > OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> > http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
> >
> > On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi John
> > >
> > > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> > >
> > > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and
> > > regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement
> > of
> > > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project
> > > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature
> > > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not
> the
> > > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a
> very
> > > limited community.
> > >
> > > My €0.01 ;)
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > JB
> > >
> > > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <
> johndament@apache.org
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > >All,
> > > >
> > > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have
> to
> > > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > > >next.
> > > >
> > > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > > >attempt
> > > >at monthly).
> > > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > > >activity
> > > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
> > > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > > >
> > > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force
> a
> > > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> > > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> > > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
> > > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
> > > >
> > > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to
> regroup?
> > > >
> > > >John
> > >
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>]

I think that we need to get over thinking of this state of affairs is a
"failure".

It is just one of the many different possible outcomes for incubation. To
my mind, having multiple possible outcomes is a *feature*, not a bug.

Obviously, we should not admit podlings that we aren't committed to helping
become TLP's and we should help those podlings become TLP's. But there are
lots of different possible outcomes and only the podling can really
determine which outcome it will have.

It is a fact of nature that we cannot always know whether a new podling
really has the right intent and contributor mix to become a good TLP.
Sometimes it is apparent that the project will be a great fit and sometimes
it is apparent that it won't be, but many times we won't exactly know.
There will be cases where a community will melt away and there will be
cases where a community really didn't get the point of the Apache license.
In many cases, the world just changes and by the time it is time to
graduate, the project just isn't the right thing to do any more.

As such, I think we need to (somewhat) over-admit podlings when there is
doubt. That doesn't mean admit projects that just won't ever succeed, but
it does mean we should be a little generous in terms of admission. We
should vote to admit in cases of some doubt.

If that is true, then we have to expect that there will be a variety of
outcomes and we have to take that as a consequence of our initial
generosity. This is not a cause for tears. Frankly, every project that
becomes an obvious candidate for retirement means that there is another
successful project that we admitted even though there was doubt.

IF it is time to retire Sirona, let's just do it.



On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking at
> the various public sources, I see:
>
>    - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
>    - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
>    - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
>    - No description (readme) in github
>    - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the project's
>    home page
>
> I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the world
> beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for
> retirement.
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Pierre Smits
>
> ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
>
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi John
> >
> > I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
> >
> > AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and
> > regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement
> of
> > Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project
> > that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature
> > requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not the
> > case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a very
> > limited community.
> >
> > My €0.01 ;)
> >
> > Regards
> > JB
> >
> > On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <johndament@apache.org
> >
> > wrote:
> > >All,
> > >
> > >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have to
> > >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> > >next.
> > >
> > >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> > >attempt
> > >at monthly).
> > >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> > >activity
> > >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> > >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
> > >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> > >
> > >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force a
> > >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> > >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> > >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
> > >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
> > >
> > >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to regroup?
> > >
> > >John
> >
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>]

It is very sad to see a project failing at growing a community. Looking at
the various public sources, I see:

   - just 2 pull request since its start in incubation
   - no postings on the user ml since December 2015
   - only 3 committing contributors since start in incubation
   - No description (readme) in github
   - No mission statement/goal description of the project on the project's
   home page

I fear this will not turn around due to the lack of interest in the world
beyond the project. At the moment I am inclined to say: time for retirement.

Best regards,


Pierre Smits

ORRTIZ.COM <http://www.orrtiz.com>
OFBiz based solutions & services

OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
http://oem.ofbizci.net/oci-2/

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:07 PM, Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>
wrote:

> Hi John
>
> I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.
>
> AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and
> regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement of
> Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project
> that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature
> requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not the
> case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a very
> limited community.
>
> My €0.01 ;)
>
> Regards
> JB
>
> On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >All,
> >
> >I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have to
> >take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
> >next.
> >
> >- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
> >attempt
> >at monthly).
> >- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
> >activity
> >on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
> >- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
> >months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
> >
> >I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force a
> >project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
> >enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
> >They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
> >other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
> >
> >So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to regroup?
> >
> >John
>

Re: The state of Sirona

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>]

Hi John

I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.

AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement of Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not the case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a very limited community.

My €0.01 ;)

Regards
JB

On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>All,
>
>I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have to
>take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
>next.
>
>- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
>attempt
>at monthly).
>- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
>activity
>on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
>- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
>months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
>
>I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force a
>project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
>enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
>They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
>other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
>
>So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to regroup?
>
>John

Re: The state of Sirona

[Jean-Baptiste Onofré <jb...@nanthrax.net>]

Hi John

I think you did the right thing by bringing the point on the table.

AFAIR I already stated some months ago that, regarding the activity and regarding the community around, we should really think about retirement of Sirona. Some can argue about the fact that Sirona is a "stable" project that's not really valid: if it's valid we should see questions, feature requests, etc coming from the user community. And obviously it's not the case. So I think that Sirona is just use for specific use cases in a very limited community.

My €0.01 ;)

Regards
JB

On Apr 15, 2017, 15:49, at 15:49, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>All,
>
>I hate bringing up these topics.  But I think we as the IPMC we have to
>take a close look at how Sirona is running and figure out what to do
>next.
>
>- The podling has not reported in several months (this is their 3rd
>attempt
>at monthly).
>- Every time the thought of retirement comes up, a little bit of
>activity
>on the project happens.  It doesn't sustain.
>- There is some limited project history, but no real contribution in 6
>months ( https://github.com/apache/sirona/commits/trunk )
>
>I personally don't want to see projects go, and I don't want to force a
>project to leave, but at the same time I'm not convinced that there's
>enough of a community behind the project to sustain it going forward.
>They've put together a limited plan to get a release out the door, but
>other than that I'm not sure they're going to be able to move forward.
>
>So I want to ask, as the IPMC, do we want to give them time to regroup?
>
>John