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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Florent André <fl...@4sengines.com> on 2009/01/15 19:06:35 UTC
How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Hi all
As I see, many of us create some module, do some snippets, BDD connexions,
create serializer, templates,...
But users don't have a site to easy share theirs products (Maybe I don't
know it...and you have to hurt me ! :)
The Apache submission process is a guaranty of a serious and good code, but
It don't allow to any lenya user to submit a portion of code, collaborate
on a module,... Such a site could be good for the community development.
(I don't have enough english words to well express my idea, I hope you
understand :).
So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like (sure)
create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of this
site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
- How do you think about this idea ?
- Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this question is
important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be used).
- This is opposite to the Apache process ?
- Some of us are ready to help me ?
Have a good day
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Antwort: Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by ru...@uniklinik-freiburg.de.
Hi all,
Florent André <fl...@4sengines.com> schrieb am 19.01.2009
12:30:17:
> Hello,
>
> On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:19:27 +0100, Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > Hi everybody,
> >
> > rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de schrieb:
> >> Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> schrieb
am
> >> 16.01.2009 13:53:06:
> >>
> >>> El vie, 16-01-2009 a las 10:40 +0100,
> >>> rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de escribió:
> >
> > […]
> >
> >>> The real problem is that we have promising candidates for new
> > committers
> >>> but we are failing to give the last helping hand.
> >
> > I agree that we should rather improve the community building efforts of
> > the Lenya project than encourage an external community.
> >
> > The goal of the ASF is to create software in a collaborative way. It
> > provides us with the necessary infrastructure. The problem is IMO that
> > many contributors have the feeling that (a) becoming a committer is way
> > out of their reach and (b) contributing (see [1]) is too complicated.
We
> > have to work on these issues.
>
> Open contributions on modules can be a good first step no ?
I think its a very good first step. A new svn branch (something like
"contributions") like Thorsten
proposend filled by patches, would match to the philosophy of the Apache
foundation and would be a first step in the right direction.
>
> >
> >
> >>>> Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
> >>>> development team and a big community developing modules
> >>>> http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
> >
> ...
> >
> > BTW, a very important point is the ratio between community size and
size
> > of the code base. Should we accept modules as soon as there is
> > committment to maintain them? In this case, we also have to be ready to
> > remove them when the maintenance stops, which raises the question of
> > backwards compatibility.
>
> I think this process is the Darwin selection apply to module :
> - if a module is not very useful, and the maintenance stop, nobody will
> recode it
> - if a module is useful, and the maintenance stop, for sure a person will
> recode it if the sources lead is easy to give
> - if a module is very useful, the core team will include this in the
> distribution pack and the maintain is certain for a long time.
>
> A clear advertisement on each type of module (not maintain, maintain by
> contributors, maintain by core team) can be imagine to inform users on
the
> status of each module.
>
> This "natural selection" occur in numbers of open modularized
applications
> (Drupal, Firefox,...) and give to this project an important variety and
> capabilities that, I think, can help lenya to : "[…] a desire to create
> high quality software that leads the way in its field".
I also think like Andre that a good module concept is a very import thing,
to bring creative individuals together to build up a great system.
I realized also that in the past good things failed, because people were
not able to see the benefits.
I remember Simala 67 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simula) the first object
oriented program language. Only a few people in the 60's
realized that object oriented programming is great thing.
I have similar problem when I tell people about cocoon and lenya.
Now there is a great module concept in lenya 2.0 and setting up the
environment for people to use it, is from my point of view very import. We
need modules and publications showing then benefits.
I also think that it's import to do it in the Apache way to have good
quality of contibutions.
>
>
> So,
>
> - Can we imagine to have a "module contributor zone" on the lenya ASF
> hosting ?
> -- A vote have to be done ?
>
> - If this "module contributor zone" is set up, witch kind of process do
you
> imagine to become a contributor ?
>
Is it possible to set up a lenya modules subprojekt ?
WDYT
Rudolf
>
> Have a good sunny day !
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
>
>
Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc?
Posted by Florent André <fl...@4sengines.com>.
Hello,
On Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:19:27 +0100, Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>
wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de schrieb:
>> Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> schrieb am
>> 16.01.2009 13:53:06:
>>
>>> El vie, 16-01-2009 a las 10:40 +0100,
>>> rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de escribió:
>
> […]
>
>>> The real problem is that we have promising candidates for new
> committers
>>> but we are failing to give the last helping hand.
>
> I agree that we should rather improve the community building efforts of
> the Lenya project than encourage an external community.
>
> The goal of the ASF is to create software in a collaborative way. It
> provides us with the necessary infrastructure. The problem is IMO that
> many contributors have the feeling that (a) becoming a committer is way
> out of their reach and (b) contributing (see [1]) is too complicated. We
> have to work on these issues.
Open contributions on modules can be a good first step no ?
>
>
>>>> Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
>>>> development team and a big community developing modules
>>>> http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
>
...
>
> BTW, a very important point is the ratio between community size and size
> of the code base. Should we accept modules as soon as there is
> committment to maintain them? In this case, we also have to be ready to
> remove them when the maintenance stops, which raises the question of
> backwards compatibility.
I think this process is the Darwin selection apply to module :
- if a module is not very useful, and the maintenance stop, nobody will
recode it
- if a module is useful, and the maintenance stop, for sure a person will
recode it if the sources lead is easy to give
- if a module is very useful, the core team will include this in the
distribution pack and the maintain is certain for a long time.
A clear advertisement on each type of module (not maintain, maintain by
contributors, maintain by core team) can be imagine to inform users on the
status of each module.
This "natural selection" occur in numbers of open modularized applications
(Drupal, Firefox,...) and give to this project an important variety and
capabilities that, I think, can help lenya to : "[…] a desire to create
high quality software that leads the way in its field".
So,
- Can we imagine to have a "module contributor zone" on the lenya ASF
hosting ?
-- A vote have to be done ?
- If this "module contributor zone" is set up, witch kind of process do you
imagine to become a contributor ?
Have a good sunny day !
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by Andreas Hartmann <an...@apache.org>.
Hi everybody,
rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de schrieb:
> Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> schrieb am
> 16.01.2009 13:53:06:
>
>> El vie, 16-01-2009 a las 10:40 +0100,
>> rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de escribió:
[…]
>> The real problem is that we have promising candidates for new committers
>> but we are failing to give the last helping hand.
I agree that we should rather improve the community building efforts of
the Lenya project than encourage an external community.
The goal of the ASF is to create software in a collaborative way. It
provides us with the necessary infrastructure. The problem is IMO that
many contributors have the feeling that (a) becoming a committer is way
out of their reach and (b) contributing (see [1]) is too complicated. We
have to work on these issues.
>>> Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
>>> development team and a big community developing modules
>>> http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
From what I heard this approach is also the biggest weakness of
projects like Typo3 and Drupal. The core team cannot provide any
guarantee or even support for the external modules. Many users have
serious issues when updating the core because the modules work only with
particular versions. The ASF projects are characterized by "[…] a desire
to create high quality software that leads the way in its field" [2]. I
would much prefer to have a strong community of individuals who stand
behind this idea, and participate in the project itself by maintaining
their modules as contributors and, after a short period of making
theirselves familiar with the ASF way and checking out if it fits their
attitude, as committers.
Please don't misunderstand me – I would be very glad about externally
managed modules if they're backed by commercial interest or another form
of committment, if donating them to the ASF is not an option or the
module is not generic enough for general use.
BTW, a very important point is the ratio between community size and size
of the code base. Should we accept modules as soon as there is
committment to maintain them? In this case, we also have to be ready to
remove them when the maintenance stops, which raises the question of
backwards compatibility.
>>> I think the new modules concept of lenya 2.0 ist excellent, and it's a
>>> great chance to get a big community.
>> I agree that it would be wonderful to have more modules that are driven
>> by "outsiders" however one big problem is that this modules need to be
>> maintained. I can remember when I worked with different php cms that
>> most modules are snapshots and not maintained anymore. Not trying to say
>> that drupal is like this.
>
> Drupal is for me just an example, were the high qualified core contributers
> are seperated from
> the module developers. I think that's an import point for the success of a
> community project.
> A module provider has his own little project where he can realize his ideas
> and provide it to the community.
> A good motivation with a gerat benefit for the community I think.
I agree to these points, and I think all of this should happen in the
ASF environment. But I don't think we have to give different permissions
to "module comitters" and "core committers". The commit list gives
enough visibility to review core commits. I can't remember a single case
where a newbie committer broke the core beyond repair – that's only done
by the senior ones like me :) – or caused serious trust issues. SVN is a
nice place to make mistakes, there's always the version history.
> For good quality, the modules schould be reviewed by the core team.
This is already the case with the contributor/committer model [1].
[…]
>> If we open a contributor module in svn would you provide patches to fill
>> it?
>
> Yes I like this idea. Is there a way to get write access to this area after
> good contributions ?
Sure, it's called "becoming a committer" :)
> (Only to the "own" module area not to the whole repository.)
> That would be a role like "lenya module committer".
> I think that could be a useful step before becomming a real lenya
> committer.
I don't think this is necessary (see above).
[1] http://www.apache.org/dev/contributors.html
[2] http://www.apache.org/
-- Andreas
--
Andreas Hartmann, CTO
BeCompany GmbH
http://www.becompany.ch
Tel.: +41 (0) 43 818 57 01
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by ru...@uniklinik-freiburg.de.
Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> schrieb am
16.01.2009 13:53:06:
> El vie, 16-01-2009 a las 10:40 +0100,
> rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de escribió:
> ...
> > >
> > > The lenya community is not as big as we could afford to split this
> > > community apart. This may not be your intention but experience shows
> > > that exactly this will happen.
> >
> > Here I'm not shure. Let me explain it form my point of view.
> > I have written some useful litte modules and would like to share them
with
> > other people, but I'm not able to understand the whole lenya system in
> > deep. So if I would be lenya committer there is a risk for me to damage
> > core code.
>
> Since you said they are modules, they should not harm the core, right?
Yes.
> Further there is always a risk to damage something but that is what a
> good community is for. You can be sure that the error will be found and
> fixed very fast.
>
> We can create a new svn branch (something like "contributions") and
> people can submit patches against it.
I think that would be good thing.
>
> > >
> > > The lenya community should be developed here in the mailing list and
the
> > > infrastructure that the ASF provides for this project. This is a
> > > reliable environment for the development process.
> >
> > If it would be possible to get a "lenya module committer" with limited
> > write access to the repository, the enty barrier for lenya development
> > would be lower and there is no risk to damage core code by committers
new
> > at their job.
>
> Hmm, we already have a distinction between PMC member and committer
> (that I personally not favor, but it was decide in majority) out of a
> similar reason but IMO it did not helped to get faster people on board.
>
> The real problem is that we have promising candidates for new committers
> but we are failing to give the last helping hand.
>
> > Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
> > development team and a big community developing modules
> > http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
> > I think the new modules concept of lenya 2.0 ist excellent, and it's a
> > great chance to get a big community.
>
> I agree that it would be wonderful to have more modules that are driven
> by "outsiders" however one big problem is that this modules need to be
> maintained. I can remember when I worked with different php cms that
> most modules are snapshots and not maintained anymore. Not trying to say
> that drupal is like this.
Drupal is for me just an example, were the high qualified core contributers
are seperated from
the module developers. I think that's an import point for the success of a
community project.
A module provider has his own little project where he can realize his ideas
and provide it to the community.
A good motivation with a gerat benefit for the community I think.
For good quality, the modules schould be reviewed by the core team.
>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like
(sure)
> > > > create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of
this
> > > > site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
> > > >
> > > > - How do you think about this idea ?
> > >
> > > I like your good intentions but there are several problems with the
> > > suggestion as mentioned above.
> > >
> > > > - Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this
question
> > is
> > > > important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be
> > used).
> > >
> > > I will keep doing my bits and pieces HERE whenever I can but doubt
that
> > > I find time for anything else.
> > >
> > > > - This is opposite to the Apache process ?
> > >
> > > Yes as pointed out above.
> > >
> >
> > So I am very interested having a plattform sharing modules an would use
it.
>
> If we open a contributor module in svn would you provide patches to fill
> it?
Yes I like this idea. Is there a way to get write access to this area after
good contributions ?
(Only to the "own" module area not to the whole repository.)
That would be a role like "lenya module committer".
I think that could be a useful step before becomming a real lenya
committer.
>
> The one thing that we definitely cannot do is give the whole world
> commit access. This still one need to earn via contributions.
Yes I agree. SVN access to everbody in the world might be dangerous.
regards
Rudolf
>
> salu2
> --
> Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
> Open Source Java <consulting, training and solutions>
>
> Sociedad Andaluza para el Desarrollo de la Sociedad
> de la Información, S.A.U. (SADESI)
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
>
>
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
El vie, 16-01-2009 a las 10:40 +0100,
rudolf.korhummel@uniklinik-freiburg.de escribió:
...
> >
> > The lenya community is not as big as we could afford to split this
> > community apart. This may not be your intention but experience shows
> > that exactly this will happen.
>
> Here I'm not shure. Let me explain it form my point of view.
> I have written some useful litte modules and would like to share them with
> other people, but I'm not able to understand the whole lenya system in
> deep. So if I would be lenya committer there is a risk for me to damage
> core code.
Since you said they are modules, they should not harm the core, right?
Further there is always a risk to damage something but that is what a
good community is for. You can be sure that the error will be found and
fixed very fast.
We can create a new svn branch (something like "contributions") and
people can submit patches against it.
> >
> > The lenya community should be developed here in the mailing list and the
> > infrastructure that the ASF provides for this project. This is a
> > reliable environment for the development process.
>
> If it would be possible to get a "lenya module committer" with limited
> write access to the repository, the enty barrier for lenya development
> would be lower and there is no risk to damage core code by committers new
> at their job.
Hmm, we already have a distinction between PMC member and committer
(that I personally not favor, but it was decide in majority) out of a
similar reason but IMO it did not helped to get faster people on board.
The real problem is that we have promising candidates for new committers
but we are failing to give the last helping hand.
> Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
> development team and a big community developing modules
> http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
> I think the new modules concept of lenya 2.0 ist excellent, and it's a
> great chance to get a big community.
I agree that it would be wonderful to have more modules that are driven
by "outsiders" however one big problem is that this modules need to be
maintained. I can remember when I worked with different php cms that
most modules are snapshots and not maintained anymore. Not trying to say
that drupal is like this.
> >
> > >
> > > So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like (sure)
> > > create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of this
> > > site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
> > >
> > > - How do you think about this idea ?
> >
> > I like your good intentions but there are several problems with the
> > suggestion as mentioned above.
> >
> > > - Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this question
> is
> > > important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be
> used).
> >
> > I will keep doing my bits and pieces HERE whenever I can but doubt that
> > I find time for anything else.
> >
> > > - This is opposite to the Apache process ?
> >
> > Yes as pointed out above.
> >
>
> So I am very interested having a plattform sharing modules an would use it.
If we open a contributor module in svn would you provide patches to fill
it?
The one thing that we definitely cannot do is give the whole world
commit access. This still one need to earn via contributions.
salu2
--
Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
Open Source Java <consulting, training and solutions>
Sociedad Andaluza para el Desarrollo de la Sociedad
de la Información, S.A.U. (SADESI)
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by ru...@uniklinik-freiburg.de.
I like the idea having a plattform where it is easy to share modules very
much.
Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es> schrieb am
16.01.2009 09:13:53:
> El jue, 15-01-2009 a las 19:06 +0100, Florent André escribió:
> > Hi all
> >
> > As I see, many of us create some module, do some snippets, BDD
connexions,
> > create serializer, templates,...
> >
> > But users don't have a site to easy share theirs products (Maybe I
don't
> > know it...and you have to hurt me ! :)
> >
> > The Apache submission process is a guaranty of a serious and good code,
but
> > It don't allow to any lenya user to submit a portion of code,
collaborate
> > on a module,...
>
> Why do you think so? The ASF infrastructure is designed to allow exactly
> this.
>
> "Portion of code" should first go into the issue tracker and then
> committed to the svn. Snippet should go to the wiki. Actually one of my
> first contributions here on the ASF had been
> http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/GETsnippets
>
> > Such a site could be good for the community development.
> > (I don't have enough english words to well express my idea, I hope you
> > understand :).
>
> The lenya community is not as big as we could afford to split this
> community apart. This may not be your intention but experience shows
> that exactly this will happen.
Here I'm not shure. Let me explain it form my point of view.
I have written some useful litte modules and would like to share them with
other people, but I'm not able to understand the whole lenya system in
deep. So if I would be lenya committer there is a risk for me to damage
core code.
>
> The lenya community should be developed here in the mailing list and the
> infrastructure that the ASF provides for this project. This is a
> reliable environment for the development process.
If it would be possible to get a "lenya module committer" with limited
write access to the repository, the enty barrier for lenya development
would be lower and there is no risk to damage core code by committers new
at their job.
Just have a look at the drupal Community. They have a little core
development team and a big community developing modules
http://www.ohloh.net/p?q=drupal They are very sucessful.
I think the new modules concept of lenya 2.0 ist excellent, and it's a
great chance to get a big community.
>
> >
> > So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like (sure)
> > create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of this
> > site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
> >
> > - How do you think about this idea ?
>
> I like your good intentions but there are several problems with the
> suggestion as mentioned above.
>
> > - Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this question
is
> > important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be
used).
>
> I will keep doing my bits and pieces HERE whenever I can but doubt that
> I find time for anything else.
>
> > - This is opposite to the Apache process ?
>
> Yes as pointed out above.
>
So I am very interested having a plattform sharing modules an would use it.
If this is possible with the apache environment it would be fine.
regards
Rudolf
> salu2
>
> > - Some of us are ready to help me ?
> >
> > Have a good day
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
> >
> --
> Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
> Open Source Java <consulting, training and solutions>
>
> Sociedad Andaluza para el Desarrollo de la Sociedad
> de la Información, S.A.U. (SADESI)
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
>
>
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by Thorsten Scherler <th...@juntadeandalucia.es>.
El jue, 15-01-2009 a las 19:06 +0100, Florent André escribió:
> Hi all
>
> As I see, many of us create some module, do some snippets, BDD connexions,
> create serializer, templates,...
>
> But users don't have a site to easy share theirs products (Maybe I don't
> know it...and you have to hurt me ! :)
>
> The Apache submission process is a guaranty of a serious and good code, but
> It don't allow to any lenya user to submit a portion of code, collaborate
> on a module,...
Why do you think so? The ASF infrastructure is designed to allow exactly
this.
"Portion of code" should first go into the issue tracker and then
committed to the svn. Snippet should go to the wiki. Actually one of my
first contributions here on the ASF had been
http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/GETsnippets
> Such a site could be good for the community development.
> (I don't have enough english words to well express my idea, I hope you
> understand :).
The lenya community is not as big as we could afford to split this
community apart. This may not be your intention but experience shows
that exactly this will happen.
The lenya community should be developed here in the mailing list and the
infrastructure that the ASF provides for this project. This is a
reliable environment for the development process.
>
> So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like (sure)
> create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of this
> site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
>
> - How do you think about this idea ?
I like your good intentions but there are several problems with the
suggestion as mentioned above.
> - Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this question is
> important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be used).
I will keep doing my bits and pieces HERE whenever I can but doubt that
I find time for anything else.
> - This is opposite to the Apache process ?
Yes as pointed out above.
salu2
> - Some of us are ready to help me ?
>
> Have a good day
>
>
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--
Thorsten Scherler <thorsten.at.apache.org>
Open Source Java <consulting, training and solutions>
Sociedad Andaluza para el Desarrollo de la Sociedad
de la Información, S.A.U. (SADESI)
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Re: How to easy share module, snippets, templates, etc ?
Posted by Vik Tara <vi...@propco.co.uk>.
I think it's a good idea - but wouldn't we just put such things on the
lenya wiki?
Florent André wrote:
> Hi all
>
> As I see, many of us create some module, do some snippets, BDD connexions,
> create serializer, templates,...
>
> But users don't have a site to easy share theirs products (Maybe I don't
> know it...and you have to hurt me ! :)
>
> The Apache submission process is a guaranty of a serious and good code, but
> It don't allow to any lenya user to submit a portion of code, collaborate
> on a module,... Such a site could be good for the community development.
> (I don't have enough english words to well express my idea, I hope you
> understand :).
>
> So, I have a dedicated server and I "can" (not sure) and I like (sure)
> create such a sharing space. I have an idea to the "structure" of this
> site, but, before talk a lot, I would like to know :
>
> - How do you think about this idea ?
> - Do you think you will use such a web site ? or not ? (this question is
> important, because I don't want to create a think that will not be used).
> - This is opposite to the Apache process ?
> - Some of us are ready to help me ?
>
> Have a good day
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
>
>
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