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Posted to community@apache.org by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> on 2007/06/28 22:56:24 UTC
Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Some of the ASF Members have indicated a wish to draft a code of
conduct. A working draft of a set of "Community Guidelines" is
available on the incubator wiki,
* http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CodeOfConduct
Any comments would be very welcome.
-Ted.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 6/28/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Any comments would be very welcome.
At first glance I say Nice Work Ted (or whomever), long overdue and a
mature and considered distillation of What We Think.
No doubt a further reading will reveal nits :-)
I think that leaving this as an evolving proposal for discussion
forever might be more productive than trying to enshrine a snapshot of
opinion in perpetuity, given that doing so will stir up much more
concern over detailed interpretation of wording.
d.
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Re: Community Guidelines
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
"Ted Husted" <hu...@apache.org> writes:
> Can someone suggest a patch?
I've changed to it to the following:
Individuals who provide source code and documentation to the ASF
should submit a Contributor's License Agreement. Source code and
documentation must be under the Apache License and include the
necessary notifications and headers. ASF project resources, such as
code and documentation, must be maintained on ASF hardware.
Which is a bit different than the original text. Feel free to revert
or further revise.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Can someone suggest a patch?
On 6/29/07, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> > I have a question about this part of the guidelines:
> >
> >> Project source code and documentation must be donated to the ASF
> >> under a
> >> <moin-www.png>
> >> Contributor's License Agreement. Donated source code and
> >> documentation must carry the ASF copyright and be placed under the
> >> Apache License. Code and documentation donated to the ASF must be
> >> maintained on ASF hardware. Obtaining a non-exclusive ASF
> >> copyright on all material in the ASF repository is encouraged.
> >
> > I'd like to understand if the requirement is to donate code and
> > documentation or to license it to ASF.
> >
> > I thought that the requirement was to simply license it to ASF
> > under ASL v2.0.
>
> You are correct. The word "donated" here is wrong because licenses are
> not a donation, in spite of our habit of blurring the concept.
>
> ....Roy
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:32 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> I have a question about this part of the guidelines:
>
>> Project source code and documentation must be donated to the ASF
>> under a
>> <moin-www.png>
>> Contributor's License Agreement. Donated source code and
>> documentation must carry the ASF copyright and be placed under the
>> Apache License. Code and documentation donated to the ASF must be
>> maintained on ASF hardware. Obtaining a non-exclusive ASF
>> copyright on all material in the ASF repository is encouraged.
>
> I'd like to understand if the requirement is to donate code and
> documentation or to license it to ASF.
>
> I thought that the requirement was to simply license it to ASF
> under ASL v2.0.
You are correct. The word "donated" here is wrong because licenses are
not a donation, in spite of our habit of blurring the concept.
....Roy
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>
>>> Donated source code and
>>> documentation must carry the ASF copyright and be placed under the
>>> Apache License. Code and documentation donated to the ASF must be
>>> maintained on ASF hardware. Obtaining a non-exclusive ASF copyright on
>>> all material in the ASF repository is encouraged.
>> I'd like to understand if the requirement is to donate code and
>> documentation or to license it to ASF.
>>
> Either
>
> 1. it's really tiny - 8 line patches and so forth, and we accept without
> a CLA (lots of dev@, issues.a.o sorts of input from the community).
> 2. it's substantial, and we hope they will help maintain/keep committing,
> and get a CLA from them to reflect both.
> 3. it's actually owned by a company or individual who we don't expect to
> commit in the future.
... 3. ... We simply request a Code Grant to make the license explicit and
keep a record of the license. This is how most pre-existing IP
enters the incubator.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Craig L Russell wrote:
> I have a question about this part of the guidelines:
>
>> Project source code and documentation must be donated to the ASF under a
>> Contributor's License Agreement.
This just absolutely clarifies the intent of the author, it's the simplest
method of conveying your-code to 'our-code' under clear license.
>> Donated source code and
>> documentation must carry the ASF copyright and be placed under the
>> Apache License. Code and documentation donated to the ASF must be
>> maintained on ASF hardware. Obtaining a non-exclusive ASF copyright on
>> all material in the ASF repository is encouraged.
>
> I'd like to understand if the requirement is to donate code and
> documentation or to license it to ASF.
>
> I thought that the requirement was to simply license it to ASF under ASL
> v2.0.
Either
1. it's really tiny - 8 line patches and so forth, and we accept without
a CLA (lots of dev@, issues.a.o sorts of input from the community).
2. it's substantial, and we hope they will help maintain/keep committing,
and get a CLA from them to reflect both.
3. it's actually owned by a company or individual who we don't expect to
commit in the future.
Otherwise it isn't ASF code. So -if- it is still accepted by the project
(treat this as an external IP import), it comes in with its NOTICE of
copyright, and its LICENSE (ASF or otherwise acceptable license). Even
as it evolves, it's providence is still from external IP.
It's also not a matter of their licensing it 'to the ASF', as licensing it
under the AL (not ASL ;-) offers that license to the world including the ASF.
Bill
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
I have a question about this part of the guidelines:
> Project source code and documentation must be donated to the ASF
> under a
Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
>
> The example project guidelines and cultural principles were added to
> put the draft community guidelines into context. Though, we might not
> want to post all three items together as a block.
Yea - I'm sort of confused. I'm looking to inject two more concepts,
reinforce that you are you (not your company), that companies aren't
here (thou there employees may be) they are participating as ASF folk,
not as company X folk, and that what is private@ to the ASF doesn't
leave the ASF. (Any more than we want you to share private stuff from
your company here with the ASF). Respect privacy boundaries, and act
as yourself, an individual participant, first. Not as an employee.
We sort of start down that path in a few spots already, but didn't
really bring that picture full circle yet.
One other bit, shouldn't it be "developer-friendly license terms?"
(That is, developers should be free to use the code however they like
for whatever purpose it serves them, as opposed to FSF'isms that code has
inherent freedom to be expressed. That's how I've described the AL/GPL
divide in the past).
> Of course, when a resource is public, our only recourse is to shun an
> obnoxious participant, since unsubbing someone that obnoxious will
> simply encourage more bad behavior under a new email address. We
> should try and be sure that our communities understand that "Don't
> feed the trolls" does work.
Oh ya. We've had those too - in fact it's been interesting that the
banned wiki spammer suddenly started communicating on docs after their
wiki keys were taken away. And maybe started to grok what they had
been doing wrong. (Or not, heh.) It's more effective to ignore/shun,
than to begin banning IPs from public mailing lists for misbehavior.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
On 6/30/07, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
> This isn't a Code of Conduct, it's a top-level description of our ethos.
Yes, that's how it turned out. I started out to research a code of
conduct, and came back with a set of community guidelines that
describe how we expect people to behave on our lists. (The context was
hostile behavior, or behavior perceived to be hostile.) Two key points
the community guidelines make is "criticize the code, not the coder",
and "don't feed the trolls". I can remember multiple occasions when
we've had to explain such things to people on different lists, and I
believe it would help to have a cannonical reference.
The example project guidelines and cultural principles were added to
put the draft community guidelines into context. Though, we might not
want to post all three items together as a block.
* The "Community Guidelines" could be placed at apache.org under "Get
Involved", next to the Mailing List page.
* The "Example Project Guidelines" could be placed at
incubator.apache.org under "Other Guides",.
* The first part of the "ASF Culture" section could be merged with
the Philosophy section of "How the ASF Works", with the "ASF Motto"
section being moved to it's own page, next to the Glossary of
Apache-Related Terms <http://apache.org/foundation/glossary.html>.
> Hell ya. Let me state that when various leaks of members@ level and
> higher material occurred, I was personally read to pen a resolution to
> expel the idiot with no respect for the foundation.
No need to pen a resolution, all we need is a 2/3's vote. "Section
4.7. Termination from Membership. No member may have his, her or its
membership terminated except by an affirmative vote of a two-thirds
majority of the members of the corporation."
> But I have no problem with a PMC turning off pmc access, commit access,
> or even un-subbing an obnoxious participant. We just had to do this at
> the wiki level in httpd. It happens, solve it, move on.
Since the PMC and its chair serve at the pleasure of the board,
there's nothing in the bylaws about booting someone off a PMC. Though,
I'd hope that we'd look for the same sort of 2/3 super-majority vote
at the PMC level. If we didn't have that degree of consensus, then it
might be better to just reboot the PMC and start over (or not).
Of course, when a resource is public, our only recourse is to shun an
obnoxious participant, since unsubbing someone that obnoxious will
simply encourage more bad behavior under a new email address. We
should try and be sure that our communities understand that "Don't
feed the trolls" does work.
-Ted.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Henri - I grok what you are saying. This isn't a Code of Conduct,
it's a top-level description of our ethos.
Two more inline...
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 6/28/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Some of the ASF Members have indicated a wish to draft a code of
>> conduct. A working draft of a set of "Community Guidelines" is
>> available on the incubator wiki,
>>
>> * http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CodeOfConduct
>>
>> Any comments would be very welcome.
>
> So... I really dislike the BlogHer code of conduct, and what you've
> got too. It's hard to explain why, so now I've ranted out loud to my
> wife for a while, I'll try to see if I've got an explanation.
>
> I fully agree with the crapness of what led to said code of conduct.
> We shouldn't put up with people acting that way to a member of our
> community (blogging in this case, not apache) unless that's something
> they're signing up for. So biling Hani, sure. But harassing someone
> whose given no reason that they're into such things, no.
>
> The code of conduct is bad though. It's this thing that supposedly I'm
> meant to be saying "Yes, I'll adhere to this code of conduct", but it
> is far too close to licensing and legal talk. What is a moral right?
> What is an obligation of confidentiality? Afaik I can do anything with
> anything I'm given unless someone indicates its confidential (where my
> employment ndas always seem to define lots as confidential etc). Same
> for much of it. The authors are trying to define "play nice", but all
> they do is create a list of things that if I have to sign up for will
> mean someday that someone is going to accuse me of breaking said rule
> because they interpret the vague words in some other way to me.
confidential is private@. It's for your eyes only - this goes back to
the fact that individuals participate, not companies, not other orgs.
That needs to be solidified into a code of conduct; you don't represent
your employer, you wear a different hat here. What you read here (in
private@) stays private, what you find out at work should be private to
your work life. Folks need to know how to switch, and also wear hats.
> With "play nice", it's obvious that we're all interpreting things, but
> with the attempted code of conduct there's an impression that it is
> definitive and that I'm supposed to understand it all.
>
> Slight side note. What's the punishment? Are we going to throw people
> out of our community for breaking this? Are we only going to throw
> them out if they sign up?
Hell ya. Let me state that when various leaks of members@ level and
higher material occured, I was personally read to pen a resolution to
expel the idiot with no respect for the foundation.
We are fortunate that in recent memory, when folks fucked up, they have
admitted it and offered their mea culpas. That's terrific, I'm glad they
knew (in hindsight) that they did the ASF a disservice.
But I have no problem with a PMC turning off pmc access, commit access,
or even un-subbing an obnoxious participant. We just had to do this at
the wiki level in httpd. It happens, solve it, move on.
Bill
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Re: Community Guidelines
Posted by J Aaron Farr <fa...@apache.org>.
"Henri Yandell" <ba...@apache.org> writes:
> With "play nice", it's obvious that we're all interpreting things, but
> with the attempted code of conduct there's an impression that it is
> definitive and that I'm supposed to understand it all.
This is one of my concerns too.
Our culture is not a document; it's much more dynamic and diverse than
even a wiki can handle. That said, I'm all for recording expected
behaviors and writing down some of our oral traditions. I don't want
to discourage Ted, or anyone else for that matter, on working on these
sorts of efforts. Let's just be clear that such documents are neither
comprehensive nor binding.
> Slight side note. What's the punishment? Are we going to throw people
> out of our community for breaking this? Are we only going to throw
> them out if they sign up?
Another good point, Henri.
Would it be more palatable if the page were renamed to something like
"The Apache Way" or "By play nice we mean..." or "A couple of us wrote
down how we think things work around here"?
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On 6/28/07, Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org> wrote:
> Some of the ASF Members have indicated a wish to draft a code of
> conduct. A working draft of a set of "Community Guidelines" is
> available on the incubator wiki,
>
> * http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/CodeOfConduct
>
> Any comments would be very welcome.
So... I really dislike the BlogHer code of conduct, and what you've
got too. It's hard to explain why, so now I've ranted out loud to my
wife for a while, I'll try to see if I've got an explanation.
I fully agree with the crapness of what led to said code of conduct.
We shouldn't put up with people acting that way to a member of our
community (blogging in this case, not apache) unless that's something
they're signing up for. So biling Hani, sure. But harassing someone
whose given no reason that they're into such things, no.
The code of conduct is bad though. It's this thing that supposedly I'm
meant to be saying "Yes, I'll adhere to this code of conduct", but it
is far too close to licensing and legal talk. What is a moral right?
What is an obligation of confidentiality? Afaik I can do anything with
anything I'm given unless someone indicates its confidential (where my
employment ndas always seem to define lots as confidential etc). Same
for much of it. The authors are trying to define "play nice", but all
they do is create a list of things that if I have to sign up for will
mean someday that someone is going to accuse me of breaking said rule
because they interpret the vague words in some other way to me.
With "play nice", it's obvious that we're all interpreting things, but
with the attempted code of conduct there's an impression that it is
definitive and that I'm supposed to understand it all.
Slight side note. What's the punishment? Are we going to throw people
out of our community for breaking this? Are we only going to throw
them out if they sign up?
Laws exist and work (as such) because we punish people who break them.
The BlogHer code of conduct is useless afaict because there is no
punishment. Being able to waggle fingers at someone and tell them
they're breaking your code of conduct is useless. In our case, we
actually can punish; so I'd be scared to see us define something like
this. The blogging codes are harmless unless they're running your
server, for us it wouldn't be.
So on this.... I don't see the point.
Hen
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> 4? w.r.t. style of specific authors, doesn't the project aim to have one
> consistent style? If author tags can encourage folks to adopt their own
> style in lieu of following a project-wide style, isn't this an issue?
Well, there is formal code style which may or may not be regulated by
the project. But there is also a "way of doing things" that differs
between individuals. That is what I meant.
Bye, Thomas.
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Thomas Vandahl wrote:
>
> Why is the use of author tags discouraged? I found these to be valuable
> information when trying to understand a piece of code, simply by
> recognizing the style of a certain author.
1. once committed, it isn't your code, it's the project's code. (Not from
a copyright perspective, you still have that. But the copy in the ASF
is now the project's to manage. We don't have technology leads/patch
wranglers here, unlike other OSS projects and methodologies.)
2. they inevitably lead to out-of-band, off-the-dev-list communications to
the author from third parties, including IP auditors, affected users who
hit a bug, developers with patches to offer, etc.
3. they add non-ASF metrics such as who touched how many files, who has more
merit, etc. Simply - our measure of participants comes from subversion
commit history, the 'participants' or 'who we are' project page, and
nothing much more. We summarize their contributions in CHANGES, but that
list is rarely well maintained nor definitively complete.
4? w.r.t. style of specific authors, doesn't the project aim to have one
consistent style? If author tags can encourage folks to adopt their own
style in lieu of following a project-wide style, isn't this an issue?
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Re: Community Guidelines (was Code of Conduct)
Posted by Thomas Vandahl <tv...@apache.org>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> Any comments would be very welcome.
Is that document supposed to be published outside the ASF? If so, I'd
suggest to stress the fact (again) that discussions on a public mailing
list are being archived and available for everyone to see. Every once in
a while we still see these "Could you remove my post from the
archives"-requests.
Why is the use of author tags discouraged? I found these to be valuable
information when trying to understand a piece of code, simply by
recognizing the style of a certain author.
Just my two cents.
Bye, Thomas.
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