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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com> on 2006/08/01 23:01:21 UTC
Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
On 7/23/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 14:28 -0700, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > On 7/17/06, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
> > > On Jul 16, 2006, at 11:39 PM, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey legal-discuss folks,
> > > >
> > > > I've finally posted the "Source Header and Copyright Notice Policy":
> > > > http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html.
> > >
> > > The content looks good.
> > >
> > > I would prefer that instructions to Apache committers be located
> > > under <http://www.apache.org/dev/>. Linking them from legal is fine,
> > > but this is a policy from the board that should be treated like all
> > > the other documentation.
>
> IMO this is a decision that could do with some more thought.
>
> ATM infrastructure is charged with oversight of www.apache.org and in
> particular http://www.apache.org/dev/ but there really isn't very much
> content in there which isn't at least indirectly related to
> infrastructure.
>
> other groups within apache (for example legal, public relations,
> conferences) are now starting to create content for www.apache.org. so,
> we need to think about the right organisation for this new content.
>
> in terms of oversight, it seems more convenient to keep all
> documentation (whether aimed at committers or not) together at the top
> level and make each group responsible for overseeing everything under
> that directory.
>
> this strategy would create a little more work in terms of indexing. the
> generated sitemap wouldn't pick up committer content in these other
> areas but makes no difference to the manual links.
I actually agree with you, Robert. I was just willing to go along
with Roy's suggestion because I personally didn't feel strongly about
it and just wanted to get it posted in one place and be done.
However, you are probably right to think about the big picture here.
Does anyone else have an opinion on whether all committer
guidelines/docs should live in /dev, rather than some place like
/legal or /prc or some other applicable top-level path?
(this is obviously not the right list to address this question, but I
can't think of the right list at the moment -- anyone else who does
should feel free to move it...site-dev?)
Cliff
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Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2006-08-02 at 14:31 -0700, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> On 8/2/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 17:17 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone else have an opinion on whether all committer
> > > > guidelines/docs should live in /dev, rather than some place like
> > > > /legal or /prc or some other applicable top-level path?
> > >
> > > +1 to within /legal. It'd either be /dev/legal or /legal, and I don't see
> > > any reason not to keep it simple. Not that it seems very important either
> > > way. You can either argue that it's in /legal because it's policy set by
> > > the legal group; or /dev/legal because it's legal policy set for
> > > developers. Six of one...
> >
> > ...half a dozen of the other :-)
> >
> > BTW i'm quite happy about posting the documentation wherever seems
> > reasonable (it's easy to move later using redirects to preserve
> > external links and searching indexes). just seemed like a good chance to
> > think about the bigger picture...
>
> agreed -- will you be taking the bigger picture question to another list?
probably not - the right list is site-dev so i'd most likely be deafened
by the sound of silence...
- robert
Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On 8/2/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 17:17 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone else have an opinion on whether all committer
> > > guidelines/docs should live in /dev, rather than some place like
> > > /legal or /prc or some other applicable top-level path?
> >
> > +1 to within /legal. It'd either be /dev/legal or /legal, and I don't see
> > any reason not to keep it simple. Not that it seems very important either
> > way. You can either argue that it's in /legal because it's policy set by
> > the legal group; or /dev/legal because it's legal policy set for
> > developers. Six of one...
>
> ...half a dozen of the other :-)
>
> BTW i'm quite happy about posting the documentation wherever seems
> reasonable (it's easy to move later using redirects to preserve
> external links and searching indexes). just seemed like a good chance to
> think about the bigger picture...
agreed -- will you be taking the bigger picture question to another list?
/me ducks
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Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 17:17 -0400, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>
> > Does anyone else have an opinion on whether all committer
> > guidelines/docs should live in /dev, rather than some place like
> > /legal or /prc or some other applicable top-level path?
>
> +1 to within /legal. It'd either be /dev/legal or /legal, and I don't see
> any reason not to keep it simple. Not that it seems very important either
> way. You can either argue that it's in /legal because it's policy set by
> the legal group; or /dev/legal because it's legal policy set for
> developers. Six of one...
...half a dozen of the other :-)
BTW i'm quite happy about posting the documentation wherever seems
reasonable (it's easy to move later using redirects to preserve
external links and searching indexes). just seemed like a good chance to
think about the bigger picture...
- robert
Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> Does anyone else have an opinion on whether all committer
> guidelines/docs should live in /dev, rather than some place like
> /legal or /prc or some other applicable top-level path?
+1 to within /legal. It'd either be /dev/legal or /legal, and I don't see
any reason not to keep it simple. Not that it seems very important either
way. You can either argue that it's in /legal because it's policy set by
the legal group; or /dev/legal because it's legal policy set for
developers. Six of one...
Hen
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Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> I am a bit confused about what Robert is suggesting. The goal should
I believe Robert is suggesting that we have a strategy for the site -
it sounds like you're aware of such a strategy but it's not information
that has remained in the community knowledge.
(...snip...)
> be to make it easy for people to find the right documentation and for
> us to edit the right documentation. The documentation we are talking
> about is maintained by site-dev under the auspices of infrastructure
> because infrastructure is a President's committee tasked with that
> responsibility. The fact that some of the existing documentation
site-dev doesn't have a lot happening with respect to www -
however this conversation needs to go to site-dev. Could you start things
by outlining the strategy below in an email there as a proposed way forward?
Mostly the content that's in your current email I suspect.
(...snip...)
> Right now, all of the documentation for "how to develop software at
> Apache" is under /dev/ except for the bits that have just recently
> been put under /legal/. All of the software licenses that Apache offers
> to the world are under /licenses/ (and that is where export.html should
> be as well, since it is a list of export licenses). All of the ASF
> as a Foundation information is under /foundation/ except for the bits
> that have just recently been put under /legal/.
We also have /jcp, and probably /prc or /press at some point soon.
(...snip...)
> If someone wants to take over the entire site design and build some
> new hierarchy of sensible documentation, that's fine with me.
Robert's doing a great job of moving the site documentation - I think all
we need is some passing down of knowledge on site-dev and things can move
along.
> Individual authors, OTOH, should respect the conventions that we
> already have on site.
I presume they do, in so far as they understand them. This is about
committees creating a presence and Infra not being prepared for that
(no barbs intended to infra, the information architecture of the site is
rightly so not high on their list of priorities).
Hen
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Re: Finally posted: src file header and copyright policy
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
On Aug 1, 2006, at 2:01 PM, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> On 7/23/06, robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2006-07-18 at 14:28 -0700, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>> > On 7/17/06, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@gbiv.com> wrote:
>> > > On Jul 16, 2006, at 11:39 PM, Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Hey legal-discuss folks,
>> > > >
>> > > > I've finally posted the "Source Header and Copyright Notice
>> Policy":
>> > > > http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html.
>> > >
>> > > The content looks good.
>> > >
>> > > I would prefer that instructions to Apache committers be located
>> > > under <http://www.apache.org/dev/>. Linking them from legal
>> is fine,
>> > > but this is a policy from the board that should be treated
>> like all
>> > > the other documentation.
>>
>> IMO this is a decision that could do with some more thought.
>>
>> ATM infrastructure is charged with oversight of www.apache.org and in
>> particular http://www.apache.org/dev/ but there really isn't very
>> much
>> content in there which isn't at least indirectly related to
>> infrastructure.
>>
>> other groups within apache (for example legal, public relations,
>> conferences) are now starting to create content for
>> www.apache.org. so,
>> we need to think about the right organisation for this new content.
>>
>> in terms of oversight, it seems more convenient to keep all
>> documentation (whether aimed at committers or not) together at the
>> top
>> level and make each group responsible for overseeing everything under
>> that directory.
>>
>> this strategy would create a little more work in terms of
>> indexing. the
>> generated sitemap wouldn't pick up committer content in these other
>> areas but makes no difference to the manual links.
>
> I actually agree with you, Robert. I was just willing to go along
> with Roy's suggestion because I personally didn't feel strongly about
> it and just wanted to get it posted in one place and be done.
> However, you are probably right to think about the big picture here.
I am a bit confused about what Robert is suggesting. The goal should
be to make it easy for people to find the right documentation and for
us to edit the right documentation. The documentation we are talking
about is maintained by site-dev under the auspices of infrastructure
because infrastructure is a President's committee tasked with that
responsibility. The fact that some of the existing documentation
under dev is about creating new accounts is irrelevant. All of it is
about instructions to committers on how to manage projects and make
releases, which is exactly what Cliff is documenting in the src header
and copyright policy. Placing it somewhere else is not helpful.
Right now, all of the documentation for "how to develop software at
Apache" is under /dev/ except for the bits that have just recently
been put under /legal/. All of the software licenses that Apache offers
to the world are under /licenses/ (and that is where export.html should
be as well, since it is a list of export licenses). All of the ASF
as a Foundation information is under /foundation/ except for the bits
that have just recently been put under /legal/.
Not surprisingly, I don't agree with Cliff's individual decision to put
the stuff he authors in a different category than all prior decisions by
the site team. Everything we do at the ASF is "legal", so it doesn't
make any sense as a means of containment even if Cliff is the only one
editing those documents. It makes sense to have an organizational page
for our lawyers somewhere, but the "/legal/" section isn't even linked
from our other pages and the location should be under /foundation/
in any case. In short, the docs are in the wrong place.
If someone wants to take over the entire site design and build some
new hierarchy of sensible documentation, that's fine with me.
Individual authors, OTOH, should respect the conventions that we
already have on site.
....Roy
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only. Statements made on this list are not privileged, do not
constitute legal advice, and do not necessarily reflect the opinions
and policies of the ASF. See <http://www.apache.org/licenses/> for
official ASF policies and documents.
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