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Posted to community@apache.org by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net> on 2005/05/05 02:33:50 UTC

Re: Wikis for Geeks: anyone have a wiki that supports CVS/SVN for users?

On Wed, 4 May 2005, Alejandro Forero Cuervo wrote:
>> There is SVNwiki, but it only uses SVN as the database backend; it's not
>> designed to have the content also be edited directly, though someone could
>> carefully do that.
>
> Correction: it is designed precisely to let us edit the contents
> directly.  Some of us find using our text editor much more comfortable
> than using a web browser's textarea. :)

Actually, I said "SVNWiki" when I meant "SubWiki", but that was just a 
think-o, I didn't actually know there was a project called SVNWiki, 
separate from SubWiki.  Funny how that works.

Oh, sure, you *could* edit the Wiki contents with a regular text editor, 
in any event; but part of the value I see from a Wiki comes from what 
happens to Wiki content as it's received by the Wiki, from the syntax 
checking to the preview screen to the glossary-making.

> The wiki syntax is fairly complete right now.  It does some
> interesting things such as allowing you to use GNU Enscript to syntax
> highlight information (in all the ~50 languages it supports) or
> allowing you to embed Scheme code in the wiki pages (which is safely
> executed in a sandbox).  You could take a look at the syntax it
> supports in:
>
>  http://cgi.afc.no-ip.info/svnwiki.cgi/defwiki/wiki-syntax

I (really * really * really)^really wish the Wiki people would settle on a 
common syntax.  All these different syntaxes make promoting Wikis to a 
larger audience really difficult, because people I deal with worry that if 
the Wiki tool in question dies off due to lack of interest and a move to 
another one needs to be made, the migration will be painful.  We had a 
huge amount of pain just upgrading our MoinMoin installation...

Anyways, thanks for the pointer.

 	Brian

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Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Simon Kitching <sk...@apache.org>.

On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 00:07 +0200, Santiago Gala wrote:
> El vie, 06-05-2005 a las 10:03 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> > On 5/5/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> > > El jue, 05-05-2005 a las 16:11 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> > > > When you hook up Confluence with JIRA and Subversion, things start to
> > > > get very, very tasty.
> > > 
> > > Am I the only one that is worried because both JIRA and Bugzilla are
> > > dark matter WRT search engines?
> > > 
> > > I mean, it used to be easy to find information about bugs in mail lists,
> > > but now, with so called bug-tracking systems, it is more and more
> > > difficult. I'd call them both bug-hiding systems.
> > 
> > The SOP should be for the issue trackers to log all changes to dev@. 
> 
> What is SOP? dict.org is no help

Standard Operating Procedure. It puzzled me for a while too.

> 
> > 
> > If that is happening, then it should be just as easy to find a
> > reference to an pending or resolved issue as it is to find any other
> > post to dev@.
> > 
> 
> True. JIRA does the right thing provided the changes are sent into a
> public list. Bugzilla, IIRC, is usually configured so that only
> assignee, reporter and other people commenting get copies, and this is
> definitely bad. This is what gnome, mozilla and other bugzilla installs
> do. 

Well, as far as I know Apache bugzilla installations always email
everything to an appropriate dev list. Bugreports for jakarta-commons
and jakarta-bcel certainly do.

So while it may well be a valid complaint for gnome/mozilla, as far as I
know it isn't an issue for Apache users.

Regards,

Simon


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Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.

On Sat, 7 May 2005, Santiago Gala wrote:
> True. JIRA does the right thing provided the changes are sent into a
> public list. Bugzilla, IIRC, is usually configured so that only
> assignee, reporter and other people commenting get copies, and this is
> definitely bad. This is what gnome, mozilla and other bugzilla installs
> do.

No, Bugzilla can be configured such that for every component there is a 
"default QA contact" that is cc'd for any change to any issue that is 
associated with that component, and setting that to be the issues@ list is 
probably the best practice.

 	Brian

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Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.

El sáb, 07-05-2005 a las 04:29 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> Hmmm. If I Google, for example, 
> 
> > JspException uploadForm
> 
> Google comes back with a link to a Bugzilla report in one of the
> Struts dev@ archives.

OK, sorry for the misdirected rant. But being in a world readable list,
the lazyweb will take care that OpenOffice.org and other people take
note of the problem. Actually, for Apache problems I usually find the
solution very fast. It is bugs in OO.o, gnome, mozilla, etc. which gave
me headaches.

Regards
-- 
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU

Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.

On 5/6/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> > The SOP should be for the issue trackers to log all changes to dev@.
> 
> What is SOP? dict.org is no help

Sorry: Standard Operating Procedure


> 
> True. JIRA does the right thing provided the changes are sent into a
> public list. Bugzilla, IIRC, is usually configured so that only
> assignee, reporter and other people commenting get copies, and this is
> definitely bad. This is what gnome, mozilla and other bugzilla installs
> do.

Out of the box, JIRA might not report to a list either. But we can and
do configure both JIRA and Bugzilla to report to the appropriate dev@.


> 
> Again, I feel strange that I rarely, if ever, come into a Google result
> coming from a bug tracking system (be it web or email) when I'm
> researching a difficult bug. "Regular" posts in -dev or -user lists are
> usually what enables my finding solutions. Puzzling.

Hmmm. If I Google, for example, 

> JspException uploadForm

Google comes back with a link to a Bugzilla report in one of the
Struts dev@ archives.


-Ted.

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Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.

El vie, 06-05-2005 a las 10:03 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> On 5/5/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> > El jue, 05-05-2005 a las 16:11 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> > > When you hook up Confluence with JIRA and Subversion, things start to
> > > get very, very tasty.
> > 
> > Am I the only one that is worried because both JIRA and Bugzilla are
> > dark matter WRT search engines?
> > 
> > I mean, it used to be easy to find information about bugs in mail lists,
> > but now, with so called bug-tracking systems, it is more and more
> > difficult. I'd call them both bug-hiding systems.
> 
> The SOP should be for the issue trackers to log all changes to dev@. 

What is SOP? dict.org is no help

> 
> If that is happening, then it should be just as easy to find a
> reference to an pending or resolved issue as it is to find any other
> post to dev@.
> 

True. JIRA does the right thing provided the changes are sent into a
public list. Bugzilla, IIRC, is usually configured so that only
assignee, reporter and other people commenting get copies, and this is
definitely bad. This is what gnome, mozilla and other bugzilla installs
do. 

Again, I feel strange that I rarely, if ever, come into a Google result
coming from a bug tracking system (be it web or email) when I'm
researching a difficult bug. "Regular" posts in -dev or -user lists are
usually what enables my finding solutions. Puzzling.

> -Ted.
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
-- 
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU

Re: JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.

On 5/5/05, Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> El jue, 05-05-2005 a las 16:11 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> > When you hook up Confluence with JIRA and Subversion, things start to
> > get very, very tasty.
> 
> Am I the only one that is worried because both JIRA and Bugzilla are
> dark matter WRT search engines?
> 
> I mean, it used to be easy to find information about bugs in mail lists,
> but now, with so called bug-tracking systems, it is more and more
> difficult. I'd call them both bug-hiding systems.

The SOP should be for the issue trackers to log all changes to dev@. 

If that is happening, then it should be just as easy to find a
reference to an pending or resolved issue as it is to find any other
post to dev@.

-Ted.

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JIRA and Bugzilla [Was: Wikis for Geeks]

Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.

El jue, 05-05-2005 a las 16:11 -0400, Ted Husted escribió:
> When you hook up Confluence with JIRA and Subversion, things start to
> get very, very tasty.

Am I the only one that is worried because both JIRA and Bugzilla are
dark matter WRT search engines?

I mean, it used to be easy to find information about bugs in mail lists,
but now, with so called bug-tracking systems, it is more and more
difficult. I'd call them both bug-hiding systems.

Any way to make the information there indexable by search engines?

We are repeating the errors that Sun and Microsoft are doing, i.e.,
making difficult to find solutions to problems. For instance, the java
bug tracking is one of the most difficult places in the world to find
relevant information, only Microsoft DN is more difficult (I was
forgetting HP tech info for printers).
> 
Regards (from one that hates bug tracking systems)
-- 
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>
High Sierra Technology, SLU