You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> on 2020/03/06 00:02:25 UTC
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 4:15 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
<am...@isipp.com> wrote:
> > Anne P. Mitchell, cc'd, and I have been discussing her penchant for
> > reading boring legalese along with her desire to help the ASF. Unsure
> > if we are looking for something in VP Legal, VP Brand, VP Trademarks, VP
> > something else, but I wanted to introduce her to the board and open the
> > discussion.
>
> Thank you, Kevin!
>
> Super-excited to get involved and help, if there's a need!
Hi Anne!
Sorry for the belated reply -- somehow I thought that there were a few
replies on this thread already.
Once again, thanks for being interested in helping ASF on the legal
side. You certainly come highly
qualified and we would appreciate your help as much as possible.
Now, to get the expectations straight: ASF is unique in a sense that
we have very few of the positions
within the organization that receive any kind of compensation or
titles for their help. 99% of the work
at ASF is based on pure, unadulterated volunteering of individuals.
Hope this is OK with you.
Most of the legal work done within ASF falls into 3 broad categories:
1. providing guidance to our communities on legal (mostly IP and
trademark law) issues
2. reviewing contracts for the foundation itself
3. handling various exceptional legal situations (e.g. subpoenas,
summons, etc.)
For #1 we mostly use JIRA and mailing lists, so I'd recommend you go
to (you may need to create an account there):
https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20%22Legal%20Discuss%22%20and%20status%20!%3D%20closed%20and%20status%20!%3Dresolved
and see the current outstanding 22 issues that we need to provide an opinion on.
For #2 and #3 (given that none of is a legal professional) we
typically do a first pass review and then pass it on for a final
review to our pro bono legal representation DLAPiper. Having you help
there would be great as well.
In fact, speaking of JIRAs, here's a few that kind of fall into #2 as well:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-509
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-508
These could be a great entry point for you to start helping us.
Once again -- thanks for your interest -- and if you have any
questions don't hesitate to ask either on the list or personally. I'm
also available for chats during California friendly times.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 8:02 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Another things to consider: Aren't we vacant on the VP for Privacy
> handling GDPR/CCPA, etc.? I think John was unable to help. I think
> that's right up her alley.
Dirk (as VP Privacy) is working on a budget and plan for our policy,
and ongoing operations. It might be worthwhile to make an
introduction. Anne certainly seems incredibly well qualified.
>
> And with certain things like legal work, we *have* recognized it in
> special ways and compensated. See DLA Piper on the thanks page, for
> example. What about having her help with trademark work and see if we
> can lower our DLA bills?
>
We have a similar recurring conversation every few years about the TM work.
With our portfolio of marks it's not very viable to split up the work,
and it can't really be done piecemeal. Someone has to own a long term
docket for all of the marks in each of the different jurisdictions.
It's not just initial filings, it's also the section 8 filings 5-6
years down the road, and section 8 and 9 filings a decade after
initial publication as well as tracking applications to see when
objections need to be made to other entity's filings.
To further complicate this we have a decent portfolio of international
marks, which often require that DLA Piper engage counsel that is local
in that jurisdiction if they don't have an office or someone licensed
there. (and then DLA Piper bills us for that, while managing the
relationship). Anyone else would have to do the same thing. On a
recent bill I recall looking at - 2/3 of the bill was for counsel in
another country.
Every time we've looked at this situation, the only viable options
have been to 1) stick with DLA Piper, or 2) move our portfolio over
entirely to someone else. #2 has always been at a substantial expense,
even if the Marks are already registered.
--David
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
> Well, when the rate gets discounted to 0 it is no longer a discounted rate.
100% agreed. The financials for the last few years show that isn't the
case.
> Can you please give a complete definition of what you have in mind
> when you say "pro.bono publico legal representation"
>
> Bonus points if this definition is industry accepted, not just used by you.
Very easy. pro bono publico often shortened to pro bono is Latin: For
the good of the public.
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_rules_of_professional_conduct/rule_6_1_voluntary_pro_bono_publico_service/
has the clear ruling definition by nexus for the ASF's purposes.
Putting aside the fact that many of the caveats in the rule might make
recognition by the ABA of any work by a lawyer for the ASF, as pro-bono,
the statement most relevant is: 'delivery of legal services at no fee or
substantially reduced fee" which the relationship with DLA Piper does
not meet either clause.
I want to be clear that I am in no way ungrateful for the discount they
do provide but we do pay them
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:01 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Sorry, no. You have numerous inaccuracies which I pointed out in detail.
And so did -- provided clarifications to the understanding that you
seem to take as the final truth.
> Discounted rates does not make your relationship a volunteer one not does dla represent it as such as I am the one who negotiated the targeted sponsorship for them.
Well, when the rate gets discounted to 0 it is no longer a discounted rate.
> Additionally, they receive value from the inkind discount through the recognition program.
That applies to any pro bon representation -- I don't see how ours is different.
> The ASF has no current pro.bono publico legal representation and has not had it in many years.
Can you please give a complete definition of what you have in mind
when you say "pro.bono publico legal representation"
Bonus points if this definition is industry accepted, not just used by you.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
Sorry, no. You have numerous inaccuracies which I pointed out in detail.
Discounted rates does not make your relationship a volunteer one not does
dla represent it as such as I am the one who negotiated the targeted
sponsorship for them.
Additionally, they receive value from the inkind discount through the
recognition program.
The ASF has no current pro.bono publico legal representation and has not
had it in many years.
Regards, KAM
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 21:55 Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 6:29 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > From Tom, "yes, DLA Piper is a vendor and has been for quite some time
> and does the brand work. I believe there is some pro bono but I am not
> sure.
> > Mark and DLA Piper have been with the foundation for quite some time
> handling brand issues and Mark Radcliffe is also a member."
>
> Then it seems like we're in a violent agreement. They are both an
> official pro bono representation (within a certain # of hours and
> scope) AND they are a vendor (when we spill over the allotted hours or
> go out-of-scope).
>
> That's exactly how I understand it -- they are BOTH.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 6:29 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> From Tom, "yes, DLA Piper is a vendor and has been for quite some time and does the brand work. I believe there is some pro bono but I am not sure.
> Mark and DLA Piper have been with the foundation for quite some time handling brand issues and Mark Radcliffe is also a member."
Then it seems like we're in a violent agreement. They are both an
official pro bono representation (within a certain # of hours and
scope) AND they are a vendor (when we spill over the allotted hours or
go out-of-scope).
That's exactly how I understand it -- they are BOTH.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
From Tom, "yes, DLA Piper is a vendor and has been for quite some time and
does the brand work. I believe there is some pro bono but I am not sure.
Mark and DLA Piper have been with the foundation for quite some time
handling brand issues and Mark Radcliffe is also a member."
Not discounting the great work and discounts but it has been a long time
since we had pro bono representative for the ASF.
Regards, KAM
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 21:16 Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 21:06 Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
>> This clearly doesn't match my understanding -- but I'll ask Mark to be
>> sure.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> roman.
>>
>
> Tom can likely answer it off the cuff. I texted him and will relay back.
>
>
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 21:06 Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> This clearly doesn't match my understanding -- but I'll ask Mark to be
> sure.
>
> Thanks,
> roman.
>
Tom can likely answer it off the cuff. I texted him and will relay back.
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:57 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 3/5/2020 8:42 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> > We very much have a pro-bono legal representation and that is DLA Piper
> > as a firm, not just an individual you are talking about.
>
> I think you have some facts skewed. DLA Piper ended their pro bono
> arrangement years ago and the majority if not all of the work is/was
> done by one person, Mark Radcliffe.
>
> Further, checking the YTD report on finances last month shows 36K spent
> on brand which is going to largely be DLA expenses though I would
> encourage you to ask Virtual for a specific count.
>
> It's been a few years since I was in the treasurer's office but I have
> been intimately familiar with the pro-bono agreement with DLA Piper,
> their ending of it, as well as the choice to recognize their past
> contributions. I'm sure they discount their work and help us a lot and
> that's why we continue to recognize them on the thanks page. I'm the
> one who pushed for it and created the targeted sponsor recognition
> including DLA and Mark who have been awesome. But they are not pro bono
> representation at this time and haven't been for a long time. To be
> 100% sure, though, I would need to see a vendor report. But I'd bet a
> round of beers (as in not free) that I'm right and they are paid a
> substantial amount of money ;-)
This clearly doesn't match my understanding -- but I'll ask Mark to be sure.
Thanks,
roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
On 3/5/2020 8:42 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> We very much have a pro-bono legal representation and that is DLA Piper
> as a firm, not just an individual you are talking about.
I think you have some facts skewed. DLA Piper ended their pro bono
arrangement years ago and the majority if not all of the work is/was
done by one person, Mark Radcliffe.
Further, checking the YTD report on finances last month shows 36K spent
on brand which is going to largely be DLA expenses though I would
encourage you to ask Virtual for a specific count.
It's been a few years since I was in the treasurer's office but I have
been intimately familiar with the pro-bono agreement with DLA Piper,
their ending of it, as well as the choice to recognize their past
contributions. I'm sure they discount their work and help us a lot and
that's why we continue to recognize them on the thanks page. I'm the
one who pushed for it and created the targeted sponsor recognition
including DLA and Mark who have been awesome. But they are not pro bono
representation at this time and haven't been for a long time. To be
100% sure, though, I would need to see a vendor report. But I'd bet a
round of beers (as in not free) that I'm right and they are paid a
substantial amount of money ;-)
Regards,
KAM
--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:38 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> > That's Dirk now. But great idea nonetheless -- he definitely needs help.
>
> The orgchart is out of date on the website if you have a moment to fix it.
>
> What positions that could use legal work are vacant, if any? If not,
> she is a volunteer "of counsel" with another foundation. Might be
> something the board should consider.
>
> >
> >> And with certain things like legal work, we *have* recognized it in
> >> special ways and compensated. See DLA Piper on the thanks page, for
> >> example. What about having her help with trademark work and see if we
> >> can lower our DLA bills?
> > Again, great idea -- that would have to be talked to with Mark.
> :-) She is frightening in that she likes that kind of stuff like I like
> analyzing spam. However, Anne doesn't know who Mark is, so you'll want
> to give her an introduction and likely use last names and titles.
> > That said, and just to be clear, officially becoming our additional pro-bono
> > legal representation is a higher level of commitment and is typically done
> > at the firm level (but could be an option here as well).
>
> That's not accurate historically or currently to my knowledge. We have
> had effectively one person from DLA Piper who is awesome and donated his
> services a long time. Hence the thank you page for DLA Piper that
> reflects their past contributions, however, to my knowledge, we have no
> one donating any legal services in several years. In short, there is no
> current pro-bono legal representation so she wouldn't be additional,
> she'd be the only one. Who else do we have?
We very much have a pro-bono legal representation and that is DLA Piper
as a firm, not just an individual you are talking about.
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
> That's Dirk now. But great idea nonetheless -- he definitely needs help.
The orgchart is out of date on the website if you have a moment to fix it.
What positions that could use legal work are vacant, if any? If not,
she is a volunteer "of counsel" with another foundation. Might be
something the board should consider.
>
>> And with certain things like legal work, we *have* recognized it in
>> special ways and compensated. See DLA Piper on the thanks page, for
>> example. What about having her help with trademark work and see if we
>> can lower our DLA bills?
> Again, great idea -- that would have to be talked to with Mark.
:-) She is frightening in that she likes that kind of stuff like I like
analyzing spam. However, Anne doesn't know who Mark is, so you'll want
to give her an introduction and likely use last names and titles.
> That said, and just to be clear, officially becoming our additional pro-bono
> legal representation is a higher level of commitment and is typically done
> at the firm level (but could be an option here as well).
That's not accurate historically or currently to my knowledge. We have
had effectively one person from DLA Piper who is awesome and donated his
services a long time. Hence the thank you page for DLA Piper that
reflects their past contributions, however, to my knowledge, we have no
one donating any legal services in several years. In short, there is no
current pro-bono legal representation so she wouldn't be additional,
she'd be the only one. Who else do we have?
Regards,
KAM
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 5:02 PM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Another things to consider: Aren't we vacant on the VP for Privacy
> handling GDPR/CCPA, etc.? I think John was unable to help. I think
> that's right up her alley.
That's Dirk now. But great idea nonetheless -- he definitely needs help.
> And with certain things like legal work, we *have* recognized it in
> special ways and compensated. See DLA Piper on the thanks page, for
> example. What about having her help with trademark work and see if we
> can lower our DLA bills?
Again, great idea -- that would have to be talked to with Mark.
That said, and just to be clear, officially becoming our additional pro-bono
legal representation is a higher level of commitment and is typically done
at the firm level (but could be an option here as well).
Thanks,
Roman.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
Re: Recommendation for VP Legal, etc.
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
Another things to consider: Aren't we vacant on the VP for Privacy
handling GDPR/CCPA, etc.? I think John was unable to help. I think
that's right up her alley.
And with certain things like legal work, we *have* recognized it in
special ways and compensated. See DLA Piper on the thanks page, for
example. What about having her help with trademark work and see if we
can lower our DLA bills?
Regards,
KAM
On 3/5/2020 7:02 PM, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 4:15 PM Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.
> <am...@isipp.com> wrote:
>>> Anne P. Mitchell, cc'd, and I have been discussing her penchant for
>>> reading boring legalese along with her desire to help the ASF. Unsure
>>> if we are looking for something in VP Legal, VP Brand, VP Trademarks, VP
>>> something else, but I wanted to introduce her to the board and open the
>>> discussion.
>> Thank you, Kevin!
>>
>> Super-excited to get involved and help, if there's a need!
> Hi Anne!
>
> Sorry for the belated reply -- somehow I thought that there were a few
> replies on this thread already.
>
> Once again, thanks for being interested in helping ASF on the legal
> side. You certainly come highly
> qualified and we would appreciate your help as much as possible.
>
> Now, to get the expectations straight: ASF is unique in a sense that
> we have very few of the positions
> within the organization that receive any kind of compensation or
> titles for their help. 99% of the work
> at ASF is based on pure, unadulterated volunteering of individuals.
> Hope this is OK with you.
>
> Most of the legal work done within ASF falls into 3 broad categories:
> 1. providing guidance to our communities on legal (mostly IP and
> trademark law) issues
> 2. reviewing contracts for the foundation itself
> 3. handling various exceptional legal situations (e.g. subpoenas,
> summons, etc.)
>
> For #1 we mostly use JIRA and mailing lists, so I'd recommend you go
> to (you may need to create an account there):
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?jql=project%20%3D%20%22Legal%20Discuss%22%20and%20status%20!%3D%20closed%20and%20status%20!%3Dresolved
> and see the current outstanding 22 issues that we need to provide an opinion on.
>
> For #2 and #3 (given that none of is a legal professional) we
> typically do a first pass review and then pass it on for a final
> review to our pro bono legal representation DLAPiper. Having you help
> there would be great as well.
>
> In fact, speaking of JIRAs, here's a few that kind of fall into #2 as well:
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-509
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LEGAL-508
>
> These could be a great entry point for you to start helping us.
>
> Once again -- thanks for your interest -- and if you have any
> questions don't hesitate to ask either on the list or personally. I'm
> also available for chats during California friendly times.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
--
Kevin A. McGrail
KMcGrail@Apache.org
Member, Apache Software Foundation
Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail - 703.798.0171
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org