Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data)

[Addi <ad...@rocktreesky.com>]

** (from users, brought over to dev - replies will go to dev) **
Brought this over to dev to continue the discussion on exactly how to 
proceed with beginner documetation.  As David points out we should 
figure out  whether this is something that should be a separate HowTo, 
incorporated into the main docs or something else. 

Originally I was thinking of it as a HowTo and that we could take some 
of the more important bits and add them to the main docs.  But I do 
think (actually hope) that the average user skills will decrease as 
forrest spreads.  Right now it feels very geeky and I have friends who 
know something about html and css who may be interested in a program 
like this but would't really be able to pull this off with their current 
knowledge and, frankly, aren't going to take time to figure it out.  If 
we want to bring more folks like that into the fold, then maybe moving 
more of the basic stuff into the main docs would make more sense.  WDYT?

To clarify a little what I mean by beginner, I am starting with as few 
assumptions as I think reasonable.  The perspective is someone who uses 
html and css, probably using a GUI editor, has no command line 
experience and can follow directions :).  Most linux users have some 
command line experience but from linux forums I can see lots of new to 
linux users who don't really grasp it beyond the specific thing they are 
told to type in an answer to their question.  Most windows users don't 
have any of it.  I use it all the time on my linux/unix boxes but 
forrest is the first time I had to figure any of it out in windows (I 
now hate backslashes in a whole new way).

-Addi
 
David Crossley wrote:

>Addi wrote:
>  
>
>>I am planning on working on beginner, step by step type documentation 
>>over time (as I learn the answers to my own questions).
>>    
>>
>
>It would be best if we created a shell of a new document
>so that you and any others can work on it together.
>More below about that ...
>
>  
>
>>I was wondering 
>>if it would be OK to start a new issue in JIRA for an improvement in 
>>docs on this.  That way, as people see problems that new users are 
>>having in the lists, we can add them to the list of those issues in JIRA 
>>to make it easier to keep track of it.  Is that appropriate or is there 
>>another system set up for something like this?  I feel that keeping my 
>>own scratchpad of issues is not terribly efficient, since I don't know 
>>all the issues ...
>>    
>>
>
>This sounds like a good idea. I recommend separate issues
>for each item. After we have incorporated that piece into
>the documentation, then we close the issue. There is a category
>for "Documentation". Give each issue a useful Summary title.
>Keep the Description concise, and use Comments for more detail.
>Link to mail list discussions where appropriate.
>
>Are you working with the head of development, i.e. the
>trunk of SVN?
>
>  
>
>>... and it would suck for myself and someone else to be 
>>writing docs on the same issue at the same time, thereby wasting 
>>someone's time.
>>    
>>
>
>That is exactly why we try to work on every document
>in the SVN repository. It is then collaborative.
>
>It is also good practice to do it bit by bit, i.e.
>progressively build the document rather than do a
>whole swag by yourself, only to find that when it
>comes time for us to commit the work, that you
>have gone off track.
>
>Remember too, that it is quite okay to have
>"Fixme:" banners inside the published docs.
>
>It would probably be useful to discuss the overall aim
>of this beginners documentation. Will it be one document
>in the main section of the website, will it be a HowTo.
>That sort of discussion is more appropriate for the
>dev mailing list.
>
>This is exciting, thanks for helping out.
>
>--David
>
>  
>
>>What do you all recommend/already have in place?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Addi
>>
>>
>>Ross Gardler wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Tim Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Embarrassingly enough, I was having a difficult time understanding the
>>>>much simpler multiple statically built sites with one Forrest.  Ross'
>>>>answer was helpful and I think my problem was that I never created a
>>>>subdirectory to do the seed in so that I had a single "src" at a
>>>>higher level than it should have been.  Having the "mkdir->cd->forrest
>>>>see" and maybe a little explanation of having "multiple sites" would
>>>>be helpful somewhere.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>We would love a patch for the docs making this clearer, sometimes we 
>>>forget these critical points that are less obvious than we assume them 
>>>to be.
>>>
>>>Ross
>>>      
>>>
>
>
>
>  
>

Re: documentation additions and issue tracking

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Addi wrote:
> ** (from users, brought over to dev - replies will go to dev) **
> Brought this over to dev to continue the discussion on exactly how to 
> proceed with beginner documetation.  As David points out we should 
> figure out  whether this is something that should be a separate HowTo, 
> incorporated into the main docs or something else. 

In my opinion a set of HowTo docs would be best. Each one would be
very concise, concentrating on specific topics. Some examples:

* Install Forrest on Windows.
... very specific instructions, no mention of UNIX, specific example
pathnames and environment settings. Another section of the doc could
mention variations for older version of Windows.

* Using Forrest in dynamic mode.
... Show how to create a new directory, do 'forrest seed', start
the dynamic forrest, and begin the edit/review cycle.

* Building a set of static documents.
... Show how to do 'forrest site', explain where the documents are
generated, how to view them, how to zip, them up and unpack on a
webserver.

* Interpreting the Forrest output messages.
... Explain the purpose of the output messages from running
forrest, show some specific messages to be aware of.


Each document would refer to other HowTo docs in the Prerequisites
section. That way there are tracks of documents.

If some tasks are very specific and would be linked to from various
other documents, then these should be FAQs.

It is hard to know when a doc should be complete Howto, or when to
use multiple Howtos, or when a main doc is better. There is recent
discussion in the forrest-dev mail archives which might help:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=forrest-dev&m=111165685011990
(Start there and go forward.)

> Originally I was thinking of it as a HowTo and that we could take some 
> of the more important bits and add them to the main docs.  But I do 
> think (actually hope) that the average user skills will decrease as 
> forrest spreads.  Right now it feels very geeky and I have friends who 
> know something about html and css who may be interested in a program 
> like this but would't really be able to pull this off with their current 
> knowledge and, frankly, aren't going to take time to figure it out.  If 
> we want to bring more folks like that into the fold, then maybe moving 
> more of the basic stuff into the main docs would make more sense.  WDYT?

At this stage of Forrest we need more developers and especially ones
who are determined to understand the guts, so we don't yet go out
of our way to attract users. Our developer community is still small,
so it would be harder to provide support. People starting to help with
the docs, such as you, is a brilliant point to reach.

That said, of course we need beginner documentation and we need it now.
By the time we do get a rush of new users, we will have good supporting
docs. Getting people started quickly is very important, and it means
that we can save time and get on with answering more advanced questions
and more development. Such documentation helps everyone, including new
developers.

> To clarify a little what I mean by beginner, I am starting with as few 
> assumptions as I think reasonable.  The perspective is someone who uses 
> html and css, probably using a GUI editor, has no command line 
> experience and can follow directions :).  Most linux users have some 
> command line experience but from linux forums I can see lots of new to 
> linux users who don't really grasp it beyond the specific thing they are 
> told to type in an answer to their question.  Most windows users don't 
> have any of it.  I use it all the time on my linux/unix boxes but 
> forrest is the first time I had to figure any of it out in windows (I 
> now hate backslashes in a whole new way).
> 
> -Addi
> 
> David Crossley wrote:
> >Addi wrote:
> >>I am planning on working on beginner, step by step type documentation 
> >>over time (as I learn the answers to my own questions).
> >
> >It would be best if we created a shell of a new document
> >so that you and any others can work on it together.
> >More below about that ...
> >
> >>I was wondering 
> >>if it would be OK to start a new issue in JIRA for an improvement in 
> >>docs on this.  That way, as people see problems that new users are 
> >>having in the lists, we can add them to the list of those issues in JIRA 
> >>to make it easier to keep track of it.  Is that appropriate or is there 
> >>another system set up for something like this?  I feel that keeping my 
> >>own scratchpad of issues is not terribly efficient, since I don't know 
> >>all the issues ...
> >
> >This sounds like a good idea. I recommend separate issues
> >for each item. After we have incorporated that piece into
> >the documentation, then we close the issue. There is a category
> >for "Documentation". Give each issue a useful Summary title.
> >Keep the Description concise, and use Comments for more detail.
> >Link to mail list discussions where appropriate.
> >
> >Are you working with the head of development, i.e. the
> >trunk of SVN?
> >
> >>... and it would suck for myself and someone else to be 
> >>writing docs on the same issue at the same time, thereby wasting 
> >>someone's time.
> >
> >That is exactly why we try to work on every document
> >in the SVN repository. It is then collaborative.
> >
> >It is also good practice to do it bit by bit, i.e.
> >progressively build the document rather than do a
> >whole swag by yourself, only to find that when it
> >comes time for us to commit the work, that you
> >have gone off track.
> >
> >Remember too, that it is quite okay to have
> >"Fixme:" banners inside the published docs.
> >
> >It would probably be useful to discuss the overall aim
> >of this beginners documentation. Will it be one document
> >in the main section of the website, will it be a HowTo.
> >That sort of discussion is more appropriate for the
> >dev mailing list.
> >
> >This is exciting, thanks for helping out.
> >
> >--David
> >
> >>Ross Gardler wrote:
> >>>Tim Williams wrote:
> >>>>Embarrassingly enough, I was having a difficult time understanding the
> >>>>much simpler multiple statically built sites with one Forrest.  Ross'
> >>>>answer was helpful and I think my problem was that I never created a
> >>>>subdirectory to do the seed in so that I had a single "src" at a
> >>>>higher level than it should have been.  Having the "mkdir->cd->forrest
> >>>>see" and maybe a little explanation of having "multiple sites" would
> >>>>be helpful somewhere.
> >>>>
> >>>We would love a patch for the docs making this clearer, sometimes we 
> >>>forget these critical points that are less obvious than we assume them 
> >>>to be.
> >>>
> >>>Ross

Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data)

[David Crossley <cr...@apache.org>]

Maurice Lanselle wrote:
> Phil Sullivan said the following on 28/05/2005 16:30:
> 
> >What would have (and would be :-))  useful for me was clearer doc's 
> >around the tabbing structure. I got it working through trial and 
> >error. A real newbie might not be willing to do that. 
> 
> I agree.  After I started playing with the colors of the pelt skin, I 
> was intrigued by the way level-2-tabs (are supposed to) work and which 
> menu items get assigned to each tab.  I checked both the 0.6 and the 0.7 
> doc on menus.
> a) subtabs are not mentioned.
> b) there is an explanation of an example site.xml and tabs.xml showing 
> what the result is, but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions for 
> someone who wants a different result.

I recorded a note of these requirements at our issue tracker.
When someone has time, they will add such documentation.

>  Like, can you have multiple <faq 
> > elements as long as they have different labels, or should you call 
> them <faq1 >, <faq2 >, etc?  Are you allowed to call them <faq1 >, <faq2 
> >, etc or are the tags in menus constrained by a DTD?  Same question 
> for groupings of elements.

Unique element names. The labels can be whatever you want.

<faq label="FAQs" href="faq.html">
  <tech label="Technical" href="faq-tech.html">
    <docbook href="#docbook"/>
    <ignoring_javadocs href="#ignoring_javadocs"/>
  </tech>
  <user label="User" href="faq-user.html">
</faq>

That will create a menu like this with three links:
 FAQs
   Technical
   User

These documents can be linked to from other documents, like this:
 <a href="site:faq/tech"> link to the top of the Tech FAQs
 <a href="site:faq/tech/docbook"> link to the DocBook FAQ in the Tech FAQs

If that "docbook" entry was a unique name in yor site.xml then you
can shorten that latter link:
 <a href="site:docbook"> link to the DocBook FAQ in the Tech FAQs

We will add a doc explaining site.xml in user terms.

> So I fully agree that how-to manage the navigation experience and how-to 
> go beyond modifying template content is needed.
> 
> >I also had a hard time getting my head around where static html pages 
> >should go ...(i.e an existing html page outputed from say word or open 
> >office).

The examples in the 'forrest seed site' explain this and have been enhanced
in the upcoming 0.7 version.

> >Finally i never was able to figure out how to use other skins (which 
> >someone else brought up recently). This was not important to me...so i 
> >went withthe default.
> >
> *someone else* here: tigris seems to work and I like its less colorful 
> look, but leather-dev seems to look like pelt but with the menu in the 
> middle of the page.

If you don't like the default colours in "pelt" then just change them.
Comments have been added to the "colors" element of skinconf.xml
to explain the process. Basically un-comment one of the example sets
of colours and adjust the relevant elements.

The "leather-dev" skin is obviously under development. It will probably
be gone soon in favour of the new viewHelper plugin.

> But even in *basic* skin use, for example, a project name longer than 
> "MyProject" can cause appearance problems, and there are not many clues 
> on what to do about it:  we need an explanation of how-to adjust if your 
> project logo doesn't fit in the default settings (I sketched that in my 
> first post here and will rework it if necessary.)

This issue is improved in 0.7 version. Today i added an FAQ
to explain how to do that.
http://forrest.apache.org/faq.html#project-logo-svg

> Oh, and it took me 
> longer than it should to find the how-to.xml template in the 
> distribution--I was only looking in the seeded project for useable 
> templates! Nobody told me...

That is a good point. We need to remind people that they have
a comprehensive set of examples right in front of them. The Forrest
website documents are included in your distribution. Look at the
site.xml etc. for guidance.

--David

Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data)

[Maurice Lanselle <la...@evc.net>]

Phil Sullivan said the following on 28/05/2005 16:30:

> What would have (and would be :-))  useful for me was clearer doc's 
> around the tabbing structure. I got it working through trial and 
> error. A real newbie might not be willing to do that. 

I agree.  After I started playing with the colors of the pelt skin, I 
was intrigued by the way level-2-tabs (are supposed to) work and which 
menu items get assigned to each tab.  I checked both the 0.6 and the 0.7 
doc on menus.
a) subtabs are not mentioned.
b) there is an explanation of an example site.xml and tabs.xml showing 
what the result is, but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions for 
someone who wants a different result.  Like, can you have multiple <faq 
 > elements as long as they have different labels, or should you call 
them <faq1 >, <faq2 >, etc?  Are you allowed to call them <faq1 >, <faq2 
 >, etc or are the tags in menus constrained by a DTD?  Same question 
for groupings of elements.

So I fully agree that how-to manage the navigation experience and how-to 
go beyond modifying template content is needed.

> I also had a hard time getting my head around where static html pages 
> should go ...(i.e an existing html page outputed from say word or open 
> office).
>
> Finally i never was able to figure out how to use other skins (which 
> someone else brought up recently). This was not important to me...so i 
> went withthe default.
>
*someone else* here: tigris seems to work and I like its less colorful 
look, but leather-dev seems to look like pelt but with the menu in the 
middle of the page.
 
But even in *basic* skin use, for example, a project name longer than 
"MyProject" can cause appearance problems, and there are not many clues 
on what to do about it:  we need an explanation of how-to adjust if your 
project logo doesn't fit in the default settings (I sketched that in my 
first post here and will rework it if necessary.) Oh, and it took me 
longer than it should to find the how-to.xml template in the 
distribution--I was only looking in the seeded project for useable 
templates! Nobody told me...

> If it would be useful I would be willing to help with the 
> documentation effort by reviewing it from the perspective of a person 
> with limited knowledge of css, xml, or forrest ....
>
> Phil
>
> Addi wrote:
>
>> ** (from users, brought over to dev - replies will go to dev) **
>> Brought this over to dev to continue the discussion on exactly how to 
>> proceed with beginner documetation.  As David points out we should 
>> figure out  whether this is something that should be a separate 
>> HowTo, incorporated into the main docs or something else.
>> Originally I was thinking of it as a HowTo and that we could take 
>> some of the more important bits and add them to the main docs.  But I 
>> do think (actually hope) that the average user skills will decrease 
>> as forrest spreads.  Right now it feels very geeky and I have friends 
>> who know something about html and css who may be interested in a 
>> program like this but would't really be able to pull this off with 
>> their current knowledge and, frankly, aren't going to take time to 
>> figure it out.  If we want to bring more folks like that into the 
>> fold, then maybe moving more of the basic stuff into the main docs 
>> would make more sense.  WDYT?
>>
I agree.  The seeded site is a great demo, and a good start for the 
curious.  But what do you do after 'forrest run' and you've finished 
playing with the demo?  How do you kill jetty?  Reboot?  ;-) Seriously, 
you shouldn't tell people how to start something and not how to finish it.

I think a collection of HowTo's makes sense, or call it an "Owner's 
Manual", like you get with a new car--something that might eventually 
become tutorials as well. And with links from them to the 
*Documentation* documentation to "learn more".

>> To clarify a little what I mean by beginner, I am starting with as 
>> few assumptions as I think reasonable.  The perspective is someone 
>> who uses html and css, probably using a GUI editor, has no command 
>> line experience and can follow directions :).  Most linux users have 
>> some command line experience but from linux forums I can see lots of 
>> new to linux users who don't really grasp it beyond the specific 
>> thing they are told to type in an answer to their question.  Most 
>> windows users don't have any of it.  I use it all the time on my 
>> linux/unix boxes but forrest is the first time I had to figure any of 
>> it out in windows (I now hate backslashes in a whole new way).
>>
>> -Addi
>>

I totally agree with your assessment of challenges many potential users 
face.  I have trouble imagining my father using Forrest, yet he has 
built his own static website editing html templates with Notepad or 
Word. Does everyone have a JRE installed?  Is that requirement mentioned 
somewhere?

Furthermore, I hate backslashes, too.  I have written a bat file to ease 
my most common move: "cd c:\documents and settings\all 
users\documents\www\myproject".  And thanks to Forrest, I finally 
learned how to set environment variables in Win XP.

I'll be glad to participate (but don't know how to use svn). 

Maurice

Re: documentation additions and issue tracking (Was: App vs Data)

[Phil Sullivan <pa...@rcn.com>]

 To help with the beginner definition, my experience may be useful.

I was attracted to Forrest precisely because i know *nothing* about CSS 
. My html skills are very basic, although perhaps better than a typical 
newbie. On the other hand my Command line, and O/S skills in both 
windows and *nix environments is extensive.

The attraction was that after some effort at learning how to use the 
templates and XML (which I also knew nothing about)  i was able to spin 
off a nicely formated web page....with really no development work - just 
changing content from the seed site to my own.  My intention is that 
over time as I learn how forrest works I would gradually customize the 
site - but it was a quick way to hammer out a basic site to start.

What would have (and would be :-))  useful for me was clearer doc's 
around the tabbing structure. I got it working through trial and error. 
A real newbie might not be willing to do that. I also had a hard time 
getting my head around where static html pages should go ...(i.e an 
existing html page outputed from say word or open office).

Finally i never was able to figure out how to use other skins (which 
someone else brought up recently). This was not important to me...so i 
went withthe default.

If it would be useful I would be willing to help with the documentation 
effort by reviewing it from the perspective of a person with limited 
knowledge of css, xml, or forrest ....

Phil

Addi wrote:

> ** (from users, brought over to dev - replies will go to dev) **
> Brought this over to dev to continue the discussion on exactly how to 
> proceed with beginner documetation.  As David points out we should 
> figure out  whether this is something that should be a separate HowTo, 
> incorporated into the main docs or something else.
> Originally I was thinking of it as a HowTo and that we could take some 
> of the more important bits and add them to the main docs.  But I do 
> think (actually hope) that the average user skills will decrease as 
> forrest spreads.  Right now it feels very geeky and I have friends who 
> know something about html and css who may be interested in a program 
> like this but would't really be able to pull this off with their 
> current knowledge and, frankly, aren't going to take time to figure it 
> out.  If we want to bring more folks like that into the fold, then 
> maybe moving more of the basic stuff into the main docs would make 
> more sense.  WDYT?
>
> To clarify a little what I mean by beginner, I am starting with as few 
> assumptions as I think reasonable.  The perspective is someone who 
> uses html and css, probably using a GUI editor, has no command line 
> experience and can follow directions :).  Most linux users have some 
> command line experience but from linux forums I can see lots of new to 
> linux users who don't really grasp it beyond the specific thing they 
> are told to type in an answer to their question.  Most windows users 
> don't have any of it.  I use it all the time on my linux/unix boxes 
> but forrest is the first time I had to figure any of it out in windows 
> (I now hate backslashes in a whole new way).
>
> -Addi
>
> David Crossley wrote:
>
>> Addi wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> I am planning on working on beginner, step by step type 
>>> documentation over time (as I learn the answers to my own questions).
>>>   
>>
>>
>> It would be best if we created a shell of a new document
>> so that you and any others can work on it together.
>> More below about that ...
>>
>>  
>>
>>> I was wondering if it would be OK to start a new issue in JIRA for 
>>> an improvement in docs on this.  That way, as people see problems 
>>> that new users are having in the lists, we can add them to the list 
>>> of those issues in JIRA to make it easier to keep track of it.  Is 
>>> that appropriate or is there another system set up for something 
>>> like this?  I feel that keeping my own scratchpad of issues is not 
>>> terribly efficient, since I don't know all the issues ...
>>>   
>>
>>
>> This sounds like a good idea. I recommend separate issues
>> for each item. After we have incorporated that piece into
>> the documentation, then we close the issue. There is a category
>> for "Documentation". Give each issue a useful Summary title.
>> Keep the Description concise, and use Comments for more detail.
>> Link to mail list discussions where appropriate.
>>
>> Are you working with the head of development, i.e. the
>> trunk of SVN?
>>
>>  
>>
>>> ... and it would suck for myself and someone else to be writing docs 
>>> on the same issue at the same time, thereby wasting someone's time.
>>>   
>>
>>
>> That is exactly why we try to work on every document
>> in the SVN repository. It is then collaborative.
>>
>> It is also good practice to do it bit by bit, i.e.
>> progressively build the document rather than do a
>> whole swag by yourself, only to find that when it
>> comes time for us to commit the work, that you
>> have gone off track.
>>
>> Remember too, that it is quite okay to have
>> "Fixme:" banners inside the published docs.
>>
>> It would probably be useful to discuss the overall aim
>> of this beginners documentation. Will it be one document
>> in the main section of the website, will it be a HowTo.
>> That sort of discussion is more appropriate for the
>> dev mailing list.
>>
>> This is exciting, thanks for helping out.
>>
>> --David
>>
>>  
>>
>>> What do you all recommend/already have in place?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Addi
>>>
>>>
>>> Ross Gardler wrote:
>>>
>>>   
>>>
>>>> Tim Williams wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     
>>>>
>>>>> Embarrassingly enough, I was having a difficult time understanding 
>>>>> the
>>>>> much simpler multiple statically built sites with one Forrest.  Ross'
>>>>> answer was helpful and I think my problem was that I never created a
>>>>> subdirectory to do the seed in so that I had a single "src" at a
>>>>> higher level than it should have been.  Having the 
>>>>> "mkdir->cd->forrest
>>>>> see" and maybe a little explanation of having "multiple sites" would
>>>>> be helpful somewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>> We would love a patch for the docs making this clearer, sometimes 
>>>> we forget these critical points that are less obvious than we 
>>>> assume them to be.
>>>>
>>>> Ross
>>>>     
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
>