Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> When studying subcultures, the first rule is to not abuse them.  This
> request is inconsistent with the tenets of this culture.
> 
> - micael

Why do you say that, Micael? 

It would be inconsistent to post this to all the USER or DEV lists, but,
as a matter of fact, I invited Sari to post this to the General list,
and Pier tossed the idea a +1 as well. Sari originally sent a private
message to the people with addresses listed on our contact page, but I
suggested it would be better to do this openly on the General list,
where the exchange would be archived -- in accordance with our tenets.

I believe the General list is a place where we can talk about ourselves.
If anything, discouraging open communication about who we are and what
we do would be inconsistent with our tenets.


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
-- Tel +1 716 737-3463
-- http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna

[Sari <a9...@unet.univie.ac.at>]

Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
>You certainly followed the rules.
´Thanks for saying this - its not easy for me to follow all the rules of
this very complex social system - and i know i do make a lot of mistakes.
please forgive me the next one.
> I used to travel near you and present each year in the 80s at the Annual
> Wittgenstein Symposia in Kircheberg am Wechsel.  Are you aware of
> that?  Want to discuss that in here?  lol.  I guess that would be
> appropriate.  ;-)
i am aware of the symposia - but dont know too much about Wittgensteins
Philosophy - i guess its a good idea to discuss it. how about his concept of
language games?
"The term language game is meant to bring into prominence the fact that
speaking a language is part of an activity, or a form of life." [1]
"Misunderstanding concerning the use of words caused by certain analogies
between the forms of expression in different regions of language" [2]
This would come close to my original question 15 and 16 - it would indicate,
that someone needs to "learn" the language used in a region (say virtual
organization) in order to be efficient (without missundersandings) in
communication. How fast can this be done?
or the aphorisms:
"If a lion could talk, we could not understand him," [3]
No comment on this right now - but may be also interesting.
"The question of truth is the question of trust" [4]
In literature its often argued that, the trust is essential for building and
maintaining virtual organizations - even or because its more difficult than
in realworld (cannt see, cannt smell. .. or only different ways?).
As far as I experienced jakarta untill now - you all have a strong common
ground of what is true and what not. My question to this would be: How/Why
does it work?
BTW did you know Wechsel is also a common location for picking magic
mushrooms in fall ;-)

Questions of high interest: Could you imagine using the term "to dock" in
combination with the term "culture"? If yes, could you describe the
connection between these terms?

> I hope you understand
> that being out of the loop in your own environment is a bit
> disconcerting.  As I said, good luck with your study, and I see you were
> not the person at fault, if anyone was at fault.
"What appears strange to an outsider can be perfectly meaningful seen from
the standpoint of the practices of a society. Field-work is not an optional
extra to anyone who wishes to understand properly what is going on. To
understand the part you have to participate in the whole. We thus slip
quickly to the position that participation is an absolute pre-condition for
any understanding. Social Scientists are then faced with a dilemma. If they
'go native' they are hardly fulfilling a scientific role. Yet the
alternative appears to be an inevitable failure to grasp what is really
going on inside a culture." [5]
Giving me a chance to get over this dilema will may be bring also
interesting results to you.
Sari
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Heaton & Groves, 'Introducing Wittgenstein', Penguin; p. 23
[2] Heaton & Groves, 'Introducing Wittgenstein', Penguin; p. 111
[3] Wittgenstein
[4] Rosenberg
[5] Roger Trigg, "Wittgenstein and Social Science," in Wittgenstein
Centenary Essays; p. 213-214



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Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>]

At 09:30 PM 12/29/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Micael i am aware of the fact that this is for sure true for you right now.
>from my
>point of view it looks a little different right now - over the last year i
>have developed theoretical research on this topic one aspect in it iso the
>concept (by E. Schein 1992) of levels of culture:
>artefacts: visible - but need to be interprated
>values: half invisible half visible
>basic assumptions: which are invisible and unconscious
>this questions belong to the basic assumtions - which you are may be not
>aware of . . . . . and am for sure not at all dont knowing this culture!
>and qualitative researches on the other hand sugest that you should ask that
>way - controvers to asking smart questions by Raymond.
>
>ted thanks for your support :-)
>
>sari

I had no idea there was a vote saying it was okay to study us in this 
medium.  You certainly followed the rules.

What Ted did, I have no idea.  And no say.

Good luck with your studies.

I used to travel near you and present each year in the 80s at the Annual 
Wittgenstein Symposia in Kircheberg am Wechsel.  Are you aware of 
that?  Want to discuss that in here?  lol.  I guess that would be 
appropriate.  ;-)

I wish you had prefaced your question with the fact that someone had given 
you permission to raise the issue in here.  As it was, it was a surprise to 
me, and perhaps to others.  Sort of like having people show up in your 
office to study you unannounced.  (I guess if you bawked at that Ted would 
think you were closed to open communication too?)  I hope you understand 
that being out of the loop in your own environment is a bit 
disconcerting.  As I said, good luck with your study, and I see you were 
not the person at fault, if anyone was at fault.

micael


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Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna

[Sari <a9...@unet.univie.ac.at>]

Micael i am aware of the fact that this is for sure true for you right now.
from my
point of view it looks a little different right now - over the last year i
have developed theoretical research on this topic one aspect in it iso the
concept (by E. Schein 1992) of levels of culture:
artefacts: visible - but need to be interprated
values: half invisible half visible
basic assumptions: which are invisible and unconscious
this questions belong to the basic assumtions - which you are may be not
aware of . . . . . and am for sure not at all dont knowing this culture!
and qualitative researches on the other hand sugest that you should ask that
way - controvers to asking smart questions by Raymond.

ted thanks for your support :-)

sari
----- Original Message -----
From: Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>
To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative
research at university of vienna


> Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> > When studying subcultures, the first rule is to not abuse them.  This
> > request is inconsistent with the tenets of this culture.
> >
> > - micael
>
> Why do you say that, Micael?
>
> It would be inconsistent to post this to all the USER or DEV lists, but,
> as a matter of fact, I invited Sari to post this to the General list,
> and Pier tossed the idea a +1 as well. Sari originally sent a private
> message to the people with addresses listed on our contact page, but I
> suggested it would be better to do this openly on the General list,
> where the exchange would be archived -- in accordance with our tenets.
>
> I believe the General list is a place where we can talk about ourselves.
> If anything, discouraging open communication about who we are and what
> we do would be inconsistent with our tenets.
>
>
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> -- Custom Software ~ Technical Services.
> -- Tel +1 716 737-3463
> -- http://www.husted.com/struts/
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>


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Re: organizational culture in virtual organizations -qualitative research at university of vienna

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene <ca...@harbornet.com>]

At 02:40 PM 12/29/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> > When studying subcultures, the first rule is to not abuse them.  This
> > request is inconsistent with the tenets of this culture.
> >
> > - micael
>
>Why do you say that, Micael?
>
>It would be inconsistent to post this to all the USER or DEV lists, but,
>as a matter of fact, I invited Sari to post this to the General list,
>and Pier tossed the idea a +1 as well. Sari originally sent a private
>message to the people with addresses listed on our contact page, but I
>suggested it would be better to do this openly on the General list,
>where the exchange would be archived -- in accordance with our tenets.
>
>I believe the General list is a place where we can talk about ourselves.
>If anything, discouraging open communication about who we are and what
>we do would be inconsistent with our tenets.


Well, Ted, guess you the man!  The vote is in your pocket.  Discussing who 
we are and what we do is now a part of these postings.  A surprise to me, 
but what the "hay," I am open to change.  I don't think that I would 
discourage open communication on anything.  I would discourage discussing 
Viet Nam during a wedding, but not discourage talking about it period.  Get 
the distinction?  Anyway, I think it is inappropriate, but I accept the 
vote, if that is the fact. Bye.


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