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Posted to community@apache.org by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> on 2003/10/20 01:00:54 UTC
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
>> This is not an appropriate mail for infrastructure@, so
>> I move this topics to commuinty@. About the "moderation"
>> Issue, please go on talking at infrastructure@
David, you are right. I'd been fed up and tired.
I am willing to quit the job of the editor of newsletter. I won't post
to announce@ any more, except the release news of XX.
I hope someone will take over that fantastic task. If
noone will raise the hand, the newsletter will be choked and dead.
The document for handing over that task can be found at
http://www.apache.org/newsletter/editor.html
Thank you for reading and sorry for posting FAT mails twice
to announce@, before.
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
--
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:09:46 +0100
(Subject: Inappropriate use of announce@)
"David Reid" <da...@jetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> I feel the posting of the newsletter to the announce list is not
> appropriate. In fact after the last newsletter I thought we'd discussed it
> and decided that we wouldn't do that again? Maybe that was just in a dream
> sequence...
>
> Announce is, IMNSHO, NOT intended for large emails, but rather small pieces
> that announce (hence the mailing list's title) the existence of new
> releases, or in this context, new newsletters. A small email along such
> lines would be entirely appropriate and would likely lead to increased
> interest! I assume it's available online in some suitable format, so the
> post should just link to it!
>
> AFAICR, this was what we agreed should be done last time we discussed this,
> though at that point I think it was on community@. As that discussions seems
> to have been ignored, perhaps we should try and clarify what we intend the
> list to be used for?
>
> david
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Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org http://www.terra-intl.com/
Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/
fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:40:24 -0400
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
> The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you
> post an announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is
> that a problem?
I said that it would cause troubles if *I*
keep on performing the task of newsletter editor.
.... Causing the balkanization.
I hope someone will take over that fantastic task.
http://www.apache.org/newsletter/editor.html
Thank you.
-- Tetsuya <te...@apache.org>
P.S. And I'd been fed up TO DEATH with the controversy of
the newsletter issue, as a matter of fact.
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <an...@apache.org>.
Hi Tetsuya!
Many people is very interested and apreciate your effort in creating a
kind of "glue" for all the projects under the Apache umbrella. Here
include me too, for sure!
Tetsuya Kitahata dijo:
>
> Nope. I have to resign. The difference of the e-mail culture.
Hmm.... I can't believe that. :(
I think we are here to learn too. :-D
> We, Japanese, do not complain about the volume of the
> mails (especially when they are useful and informative)
> and I am accustomed to that culture.
I think many of us have the same culture as you (look that I am not
Japanese!), and we really appreciate what you did. But as was pointed
above we are here to learn too. I am glad of this part as a member of the
community.
So, I think here is an important lesson to learn here:
What about to send inside the newsletter mail just the most important
headlines of the newsletter in a short mail with the link to the full
text, that way everybody will read what he really think is important for
him.
We cannot asumme everybody is interested in every topic of the newsletter.
This is normal, not everybody is involved in every project in the ASF.
Think a little how we read a newspaper:
We don't like to read every word of the newspaper, for this reasons the
newspaper is separated in sections. We read the name of a section, if we
are interested in the section, then we read the headlines in the section
and if we are really interested in the news at all, then we read every
word of the news. Is this correct?
So this kind of "order" is what (I think) was requested in the last mail.
It was not to attack or destroy your good effort. It just will help to
"save" time by allowing people to choose the right news to be read. Also
it will save AS bandwith! :)
> Someone like me (who have such a mind) should not have become
> the editor of that newsletter. There could be often friction
> and it will cause the "balkanization" of the e-mail culture.
Please don't be negative. As I pointed above we really apreciate your
effort and I think is very important for the ASF at all. I will be glad if
you really go back to work, do another try and improve the overall
newletter. I am sure this will be a success. Please do a try. :-D
Note, there was nothing like this newsletter before in the ASF. So, as
usual, start a new project is the most dificult and you are doing that
right now. So let people comment about how you are doing and receive the
critict in a constructive way. OK? :-D
> The original intention of the newsletter was
> "Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
> umbrella, beyond the artificial boundaries of technical languages etc.
> Hope this can gradually lead the good course of the ASF, avoiding the
> balkanization of each projects and keep the hand tightly with various
> projects.": cooperative collaboration space for all the contributors.
Yep. This is very important and the idea is great, please continue the work!
>
> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
Never mind this is not true!
We really apreciate your work. But some critics are good to, please take
them in the good sense. I think we are here to learn too. This is not bad
at all. We need to enjoy it. ;-)
>
> Very sad.
>
> I am willing to resign.
I can not believe you are giving up too soon. :(
I though you are a good player. Good players stay to the end of the game
and this game is just beginning! So stay in your position and play as best
as you can! :-D
Seriuosly, for the good of all the comunity, please reconsider your resign!
> Thanks you for reading.
Thans to you too.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Joshua Slive wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
>
>
>>Nope. I have to resign.
>>
>>
>
>Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile
>project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up.
>
>I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky
>about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the
>case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the
>decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular
>format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless
>there is a serious infrastructure concern.
>
>(Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by
>email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I
>see no problem in letting him make that decision.)
>
>
+1
>Joshua.
>
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>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Lars Eilebrecht <la...@hyperreal.org>.
According to Stefano Mazzocchi:
> I *DO* agree that it is, IMO, better to use Noel's suggestion and send
> a short reminder of the newsletter with a link to the web site. I agree
> with Justin as well, nobody likes to read long emails, expecially when
> you didn't ask for them.
Well, I tend to agree, but for a newsletter it is IMHO not
uncommon to post the actual content. I'm receiving various
newsletters and all do send the actual newletter and not just
a link to it. Personally I prefer having the actual content
(of a newsletter or whatever it is) in my mailbox ... I'm traveling
every now and then, and a link to an external resource is not very helpful
if you are sitting on plane going through your backlog of email ...
I've been the one who approved the posting to announce list,
because I thought we decided that the content is appropriate
for the list (IMHO there is less point in creating newsletter@apache.org
for just a single posting every two month) and most importantly,
because this issue of the newsletter contained some info on
ApacheCon and that only 2-3 days are left for early-bird
registrations.
> Tetsuia, I apologize. I found this rude and unrespectful. I strongly
> hope that you reconsider your decision, but, if not, you have my full
> respect and understanding.
I couldn't agree more.
ciao...
--
Lars Eilebrecht - He who knows, does not speak.
lars@hyperreal.org - He who speaks, does not know. (Lao Tsu)
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Cliff Woolley <jw...@virginia.edu>.
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Joshua Slive wrote:
> I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky
> about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the
> case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the
> decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular
> format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless
> there is a serious infrastructure concern.
+1.
--Cliff
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Glen Stampoultzis <gs...@iinet.net.au>.
At 12:41 PM 20/10/2003, you wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> > Nope. I have to resign.
>
>Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile
>project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up.
>
>I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky
>about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the
>case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the
>decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular
>format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless
>there is a serious infrastructure concern.
>
>(Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by
>email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I
>see no problem in letting him make that decision.)
>
>Joshua.
Exactly. Well said.
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Joshua Slive <jo...@slive.ca>.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Nope. I have to resign.
Well, thanks for your contribution Tetsuya. I think it is a worthwhile
project, and I hope you reconsider or someone picks it up.
I do believe that there have been some people getting a little too picky
about "policies". In general in the Apache world, and especially in the
case of the documentation, he who does the work should get to make the
decisions. Suggesting that the newsletter be distributed in a particular
format is perfectly acceptable. Insisting on it goes too far, unless
there is a serious infrastructure concern.
(Actually, I do agree that it would be better to simply send the link by
email. But if Tetsuya thinks it is important to send the whole thing, I
see no problem in letting him make that decision.)
Joshua.
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by André Malo <nd...@apache.org>.
I know, I shouldn't post this...
* Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
> Life is not fair.
[..]
> If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what
^^^^^^^^^^^
How did you get that impression?
> you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that
> you can do.
No, *you* are not fair. Life has nothing to do with it. If you want to play that game, just do it. But let other people do it their way.
Actually, I certainly can expect that other people scale down. I do scale down as well. If you are not willing to, the day will come, that you'll speak but nobody listens to you.
By the way, did you know, that there's no real backbone in Paraguay? What do you expect? All the people who want to listen to you, moving to Germany? Who are you, man?
Welcome to reality!
nd
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
I won't. Life is not fair. I have several customers there (Hofheim), so
I know about this.
Solution: Move. E.g. my last house move and the location of my office
were purely based on the number of carriers able to offer me bandwith
there. I live in this century, I want to interact with its technology on
the leading edge. Then I must be willing to create foundations to make
this possible. One thing that the ASF is all about is laying foundations
and creating software that people build stuff on.
If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what
you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that
you can do.
Regards
Henning
On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 21:02, André Malo wrote:
> * Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
>
> > I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is
> > sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If
> > you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either
> > not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of
> > this fast moving technology.
>
> I'm inviting you to move to our location where no provider seems to be able to
> put a big bandwidth connection, say, for a week and sorting out your 6000
> mails per day. Have Fun :-)
>
> Guess where it is? Just some kilometers from the main German CIX, near
> Frankfurt/Main in the center of Germany.
>
> nd
>
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--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
"Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon!"
-- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15)
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by André Malo <nd...@apache.org>.
* Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de> wrote:
> I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is
> sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If
> you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either
> not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of
> this fast moving technology.
I'm inviting you to move to our location where no provider seems to be able to
put a big bandwidth connection, say, for a week and sorting out your 6000
mails per day. Have Fun :-)
Guess where it is? Just some kilometers from the main German CIX, near
Frankfurt/Main in the center of Germany.
nd
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter
>and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as to
>which mailing list this newsletter should be sent.
>
Me too on both points.
Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:13:35 +0200
(Subject: Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@)
Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> I recently read that the smaller an issue is, the bigger a discussion it
> gets, as everyone has something to say.
>
> This issue must be pretty trivial then.
>
> In any case, who decides? What is the PMC or "something" overlooking
> these things, that can give a reasonable decision and stop all this
> nonsense?
There have been some concerns on this, already.
(When I requested a karma for "site" module)
--
<<Conversation by the Board Members>>
A> Well, there is one little problem. Which PMC is going to provide
A> the oversight for this one? Since it is an Apache wide newsletter
A> it seems that the only real entity that qualifies is the board.
B> +1 for board scooping up these 'exceptions'. Our members 'want this'.
C> Theoretically we should have an Apache-wide documentation PMC
C> (which would include the i18n issues, BTW), but for now our stated
C> policy is that any committer who requests site karma is welcome to it.
--
However, I found that the "Apache Newsletter" item
at the left-side navi of www.apache.org has moved
from "Foundation" to "Get Involved" (Also, renamed
from "Apache Newsletter" to "Newsletter". Anyone can
find out who did this, via the logs of site-cvs@) section,
very recently.
Theoretically, "announce@" should be used by the Apache
Software Foundation (by the members of ASF). Apache
Newsletter Issue #1 and #2 were the "exceptions" of it.
So, I felt hesitation in describing
"Issuer: The Apache Software Foundation"
at that newsletter, to tell the truth.
(because I am not a member, stakeholder of the ASF)
... A sort of uneasiness ...
--
Anyway, I still have such an uneasiness, anxietiy. In such a
situation, I thought that it was high time for me to declare
the resignation and to pass a baton to someone.
In our country, "Resignation of one's post" can be
counted as a virtue of modesty (This is what the western
people find it hard to understand our country, as a matter of fact)
Yes, I knew that I was against the proverb of
"A bird does not foul the nest that it is about to leave."
, though :-)
Thank you,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
I recently read that the smaller an issue is, the bigger a discussion it
gets, as everyone has something to say.
This issue must be pretty trivial then.
In any case, who decides? What is the PMC or "something" overlooking
these things, that can give a reasonable decision and stop all this
nonsense?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 20/10/2003, at 04:44, Rob Oxspring wrote:
>> we know that everybody has
>> his/her own preferences
>
> Again I would have thought that most of us are grown up enough to
> realise
> that.
Therefore I wrote '... we [the ASF community] know ...' :)
>> so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of
>> pushing
>> the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers?
>
> Now just hold on here. How do you get to the assumption that the
> pull-model
> is the solution? Can't people's preferences include the push-model too?
I didn't claim it's perfect or *the* solution. It's just a way to avoid
frustration, nothing more. Simply 'get the stuff or forget it' instead
of
'here is the stuff, now eat (or discard) it'.
>> Why not just *announce*
>> the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to
>> some
>> list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list?
>
> And now we get back to common sense. Using a dedicated list for the
> full
> contents and a preceding announcement on the announce@ list lets the
> readers
> exercise their preference perfectly. Those who don't like 100k emails
> don't have to take them, and those that like to read offline can do so
> at
> their leisure. Note that this approach could equally coexist with the
> suggested RSS solution, although the RSS proponents should step
> forward to
> organise this if they want it.
Yes, that's exactly what I intended to say, but I'll will shut up now
since
it looks like this doesn't make much sense for anyone...
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>.
I've been trying to stay out of all this but the logic here just made me
bite and chime in.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Abele" <er...@codefaktor.de>
To: <co...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
[snip]
> I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go
> the
> way of least astonishment/frustration:
Surely nobody disagrees.
> we know that everybody has
> his/her
> own preferences
Again I would have thought that most of us are grown up enough to realise
that.
> so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of
> pushing
> the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers?
Now just hold on here. How do you get to the assumption that the pull-model
is the solution? Can't people's preferences include the push-model too?
> Why not just
> *announce*
> the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to some
> list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list?
And now we get back to common sense. Using a dedicated list for the full
contents and a preceding announcement on the announce@ list lets the readers
exercise their preference perfectly. Those who don't like 100k emails
don't have to take them, and those that like to read offline can do so at
their leisure. Note that this approach could equally coexist with the
suggested RSS solution, although the RSS proponents should step forward to
organise this if they want it.
[snip]
>
> > I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter
> > and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as
> > to
> > which mailing list this newsletter should be sent.
>
> I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I
> can
> not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my
> little
> brain...
>
I know from first hand experience that editing the Newsletter (Jakarta
Newsletter in my case) is a time consuming process that tends to be silently
appreciated. As such, comments perceived (not necessarily intended) to be
negative quickly swamp the
positive ones and it's very easy to burn out. If people think that the
newsletter@ address is the way forward then lets make the list now. If
people think that the distribution should be different then they have an
ideal opportunity to change it: just step up to edit the next edition.
Hopefully Tetsuya will continue to contribute and may come back to edit
future issues but I fully understand why he feels ready to step down right
now. Anyone who doesn't understand should volunteer to handle an issue or
two.
Whatever Tetsuya feels, there's no reason for the newsletter to die.
Equally we shouldn't rely on the energy of one person to edit every issue.
IMHO we should decide now how the next issue will be distributed and towards
the end of November call for a volunteer to "release" the letter. If that
person wants to continue afterwards then fine, otherwise we just call for
another editor in January.
Anyway, just my 2p,
Rob
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>
> Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically
> killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you
> offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like
> this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be
> frustrated, too.
i think this must be another cultural differences thing. i think
the tone was a bit harder than it possibly ought to have been,
but i think the 'post a link instead' was meant to be constructive.
it was still trying to help get the information to the readers.
i think it's also a matter of expectations. when i'm on a mailing
list, i don't expect -- nor appreciate -- 4MiB JPEGs being sent
to it unless that was very clearly stated on the list charter.
admittedly a 43k newletter isn't quite in the same realm, but
i think the question comes down to whether subscribers want nothing
'below the fold' (i.e., only one-screen messages) or not. and we
can't really ask them. we can maybe infer some of their preferences
by seeing the effect on subscriptions and reading complaints --
although i think the latter only go back to the announcement sender
for most of our announcement lists.
others' expectations are doubtless different. lcd solutions suck,
but they're the only way to go if there are *no* expectations set.
so, the [unanswerable] question remains: did receiving the newsletter
on the announcement list fall within the subscribers' exxpectations?
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 20/10/2003, at 04:43, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>> Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the
>> majority
>> of our community has a completely different point of view when it
>> comes
>> to information reception.
>
> Compared to whom? To you, me or Tetsuyo?
EVERYBODY HAS HIS/HER OWN PREFERENCE. PERIOD.
> Personally, I agree with "the one who does the work get the call for
> the
> format".
Yep, as long as the intended audience isn't choking. IMHO the
subscribers
should be taken into account.
>> In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least
>> 8304
>> subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really
>> wondering
>> how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed.
>
> less than a percent for all three of them together is my guess. I have
> some regional interest groups newsletters that send out more
> announcements per week than the ASF in a month.
Pure speculation... and it isn't *YOU*, it's the 8304 subscribes :)
>> I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to
>> go
>> the
>> way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has
>> his/her
>> own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of
>> pushing
>> the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just
>> *announce*
>
> Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically
> killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you
> offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't
> like
> this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be
> frustrated, too.
No, I didn't offer support and I didn't provide positive feedback and I
didn't ask him politely to please, please fix the XHTML issues with the
nice, nice newsletter. Well, I don't know where you got the impression
that
"I don't like this format, this way of posting, this content, change
it".
This is insulting, please stop it!
> ...
> If you have to wonder about feeding your child (oh, the
> crocodile-teared
> argument of the caring firstworlder. Cry me a river), you don't read
> apache-announce. If you use a 14,4k modem, you don't subscribe to
> linux-kernel. Unfair? Yes. Not compatible with the "one world, global
> world" theory? Yes. Reality? Yes. End of story.
Okay, I won't reply to this. It's way OT and we won't agree here in
years ;)
> Else, everyone would have to agree on the "lowest common denominator"
> and we would be back to square one, 7-bit ASCII. 16 MB memory.
> 640x480x8
> bit displays. Sorry, I've outgrown this for some years.
So, why don't we publish our webpages in PDF and Flash then? Some people
here are choking about too long URLs in emails... but that's another
story.
>>> H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make
>>> sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting /
>>> urgent
>>> / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with
>>> 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped
>>> and
>>> adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a
>>> road kill on the information highway. ;-)
>>
>> <ironic-mode>
>> Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all
>> apache.org
>> mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a
>> HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty
>> easy
>> to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your
>> MUA
>> correctly???
>> </ironic-mode>
>
> Why ironic? This is reality. Personally, I don't understand the people
> that have bazillions of mail addresses and read them all the time. I
> have _one_ mail box, _one_ mail address and a filter which does all the
> rest. I do channel all the mailing lists I'm subscribed to onto a
> single
> address, so there is no need to talk about "irony". I works exactly as
> you describe. I'd say such a meta-list wouldn't have much more traffic
> than linux-kernel.
Again, you're talking about your own personal preference.
> (BTW: As a german you should at least write Über,
> because you know the word roots and have the key for the umlaut. And as
> a politically correct geman, you should despise the notions of using
> this (it does stem from Übermensch and its related ideology (which
> ironically comes from Nietsche ;-) )).
Oh, come on... now we're getting really deep into the mis-communication
business.
> If I don't like HTML, I drop the mail. If I'm interested in the
> content,
> I either pipe it through a filter or use a html capable client.
>
> If I don't want to see 10k signatures, I use a filter.
Again, personal preference... but I understand... seems I'm not capable
of
diggin' through the muddy waters of the net, so perhaps I should resign?
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 13:38, Erik Abele wrote:
Hi,
> Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the
> majority
> of our community has a completely different point of view when it comes
> to
> information reception.
Compared to whom? To you, me or Tetsuyo?
>
> To summarize it, we had a bunch of wide-ranging suggestions on how to
> publish the newsletter: emails on various lists with various amounts of
> content included, a dedicated list, a website version, fancy XML-based
> docs
> and even an RSS-aggregated feed. Of course there were strong and
> reasonable
> arguments for _and_ against each possibility but in the end everybody
> has
> it's very own preference.
Personally, I agree with "the one who does the work get the call for the
format". If you need an aggregated RSS feed, feel free to talk with the
editor to convert his work into your format.
> In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least
> 8304
> subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really
> wondering
> how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed.
less than a percent for all three of them together is my guess. I have
some regional interest groups newsletters that send out more
announcements per week than the ASF in a month.
>
> I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go
> the
> way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has
> his/her
> own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of
> pushing
> the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just
> *announce*
Any by trying to build "an ideal world for yourself", you basically
killed whatever enthusiasm or dedication Tetsuya showed. Because you
offered no support or at least positive feedback but only "we don't like
this format, this way of posting, this content, change it". I'd be
frustrated, too.
[...]
> > I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is
> > sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If
> > you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either
> > not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge
> > of
> > this fast moving technology.
>
> Why do we have to require this sort of working environment? It looks
> like
> you're not aware of other parts of this world. Just as an exaggerated
> example: in the (developing) Asian and African countries, a 386er
> equipped
> with a 14.4K modem costs a horrible amount of money and the
> ISP-/TelCo-fees
> are definitely better invested in feeding your child(s)...
If you have to wonder about feeding your child (oh, the crocodile-teared
argument of the caring firstworlder. Cry me a river), you don't read
apache-announce. If you use a 14,4k modem, you don't subscribe to
linux-kernel. Unfair? Yes. Not compatible with the "one world, global
world" theory? Yes. Reality? Yes. End of story.
Else, everyone would have to agree on the "lowest common denominator"
and we would be back to square one, 7-bit ASCII. 16 MB memory. 640x480x8
bit displays. Sorry, I've outgrown this for some years.
> I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I
> can
> not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my
> little
> brain...
I can. "Weil der Ton die Musik macht". (Sorry for you non-geman speakers
:-) )
>
> > H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make
> > sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting /
> > urgent
> > / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with
> > 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and
> > adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a
> > road
> > kill on the information highway. ;-)
>
> <ironic-mode>
> Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all
> apache.org
> mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a
> HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty
> easy
> to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your
> MUA
> correctly???
> </ironic-mode>
Why ironic? This is reality. Personally, I don't understand the people
that have bazillions of mail addresses and read them all the time. I
have _one_ mail box, _one_ mail address and a filter which does all the
rest. I do channel all the mailing lists I'm subscribed to onto a single
address, so there is no need to talk about "irony". I works exactly as
you describe. I'd say such a meta-list wouldn't have much more traffic
than linux-kernel. (BTW: As a german you should at least write Über,
because you know the word roots and have the key for the umlaut. And as
a politically correct geman, you should despise the notions of using
this (it does stem from Übermensch and its related ideology (which
ironically comes from Nietsche ;-) )).
If I don't like HTML, I drop the mail. If I'm interested in the content,
I either pipe it through a filter or use a html capable client.
If I don't want to see 10k signatures, I use a filter.
Scoring based algorithms, black-/white lists, bayes filters,
preferences, kill-files,name it. This is how you filter information from
this stream-of-consciousness aka sewer river called "The Internet".
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
"Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon!"
-- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15)
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Information channels, Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
As the discussion now shows *nobody* is in favour of Tetsuyas
resignation
and *everybody* appreciate[sd] his efforts but it also seems that there
exist some basic misunderstandings, at least I've lost the point
somewhere
last night...
On 20/10/2003, at 10:44, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> And then we end up with 200 mailinglists, each getting a single message
> per month/week/year. Verrrry efficient. Verrry german. I love it!
> Everything in its neat little box. Stamped, filed, put away.
[I don't want to get pulled into this discussion another time, this just
sounds pretty ignorant to me, but please read on...]
Well, the threads on this and other similar topics showed that the
majority
of our community has a completely different point of view when it comes
to
information reception.
To summarize it, we had a bunch of wide-ranging suggestions on how to
publish the newsletter: emails on various lists with various amounts of
content included, a dedicated list, a website version, fancy XML-based
docs
and even an RSS-aggregated feed. Of course there were strong and
reasonable
arguments for _and_ against each possibility but in the end everybody
has
it's very own preference.
Now the point is why we don't want to see this difference and act
accordingly? The last publication showed that there are people out
there,
which have issues with the current delivery method (maybe they're of a
technical nature or just organizational, however), so why are they being
ignored and not respected?
In case of the announce(at)apache.org list we're speaking of at least
8304
subscribers (!). Considering the recent discussions, I'm really
wondering
how many of them feel annoyed, disturbed or overwhelmed.
I think what David and others (including me) wanted to suggest is to go
the
way of least astonishment/frustration: we know that everybody has
his/her
own preferences so why don't we just go with a pull-model instead of
pushing
the *whole content* onto some list of subscribers? Why not just
*announce*
the availability of the newsletter? Do we really have to dump it to some
list? And, if we have to, why can't this be a dedicated list?
I agree that the tone of Davids original mail might have not been the
most
diplomatic one but given that this issue was discussed at length
already, I
can understand the reaction. Nobody 'judged the merits of a particular
volunteer just because he didn't like the way it's done' (according to
Stefano on infrastructure@). There were alternative suggestions on how
to
improve the publication, everybody agreed, and in the end, they were
simply
ignored.
> I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is
> sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If
> you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either
> not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge
> of
> this fast moving technology.
Why do we have to require this sort of working environment? It looks
like
you're not aware of other parts of this world. Just as an exaggerated
example: in the (developing) Asian and African countries, a 386er
equipped
with a 14.4K modem costs a horrible amount of money and the
ISP-/TelCo-fees
are definitely better invested in feeding your child(s)...
> I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter
> and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as
> to
> which mailing list this newsletter should be sent.
I fully agree and given that nobody critizied the newsletter itself, I
can
not understand why Tetsuya resigned. That looks really weird to my
little
brain...
> H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make
> sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting /
> urgent
> / personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with
> 80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and
> adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a
> road
> kill on the information highway. ;-)
<ironic-mode>
Hmmm, well, i like this approach. Can we please close-down all
apache.org
mailing lists and instead have just one big uber-list, perhaps with a
HTML-requirement and 10k footers explaining the ASF? Hey, it's pretty
easy
to filter out the important messages, so why don't you just setup your
MUA
correctly???
</ironic-mode>
...just another personal preference... ;-)
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
And then we end up with 200 mailinglists, each getting a single message
per month/week/year. Verrrry efficient. Verrry german. I love it!
Everything in its neat little box. Stamped, filed, put away.
I liked the idea of a general "announce" list where all this stuff is
sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If
you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either
not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of
this fast moving technology.
I very much enjoyed the hard work that Tetsuya put into the newsletter
and I'm very sad to see him step down because of such puny reasons as to
which mailing list this newsletter should be sent.
H*ll, I get about 6000 mails per day. It's the job of a robot to make
sure that I won't get swamped in these but the most interesting / urgent
/ personal get filed in the right folders. If you try to keep up with
80ies methods (only send me small, non-html, right-marked, stamped and
adressed mail), you might want to consider using a fax. Or become a road
kill on the information highway. ;-)
Regards
Henning
On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 01:51, Erik Abele wrote:
> On 20/10/2003, at 01:40, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> >> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter
> >> will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
> >> umbrella
> >
> >> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
> >
> > The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post
> > an
> > announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a
> > problem?
> > What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An
> > announcement
> > of a thing is not the thing.
>
> Yes, and to simplify, I think the whole point with this is that when
> you want to post the
> complete newsletter to some list, we should create a new, dedicated one
> for it.
>
> Announce@ is for announcements, community@ for community musings, and
> *perhaps*
> newsletter@ is for the newsletter. That's it, simple, eh?
>
> Cheers,
> Erik
>
> [ back in my cave and btw ;-) ]
>
> > --- Noel
> >
>
>
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--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
hps@intermeta.de +49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services
freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
"Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon!"
-- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15)
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 20/10/2003, at 01:40, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter
>> will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
>> umbrella
>
>> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
>
> The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post
> an
> announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a
> problem?
> What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An
> announcement
> of a thing is not the thing.
Yes, and to simplify, I think the whole point with this is that when
you want to post the
complete newsletter to some list, we should create a new, dedicated one
for it.
Announce@ is for announcements, community@ for community musings, and
*perhaps*
newsletter@ is for the newsletter. That's it, simple, eh?
Cheers,
Erik
[ back in my cave and btw ;-) ]
> --- Noel
>
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RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> The original intention of the newsletter was "Newsletter
> will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
> umbrella
> ... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
The newsletter is doing that job. All that was asked is that you post an
announcement to announce@, not the entire contents. Why is that a problem?
What problem do you have with a notice (an announcement)? An announcement
of a thing is not the thing.
--- Noel
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Nope. I have to resign. The difference of the e-mail culture.
We, Japanese, do not complain about the volume of the
mails (especially when they are useful and informative)
and I am accustomed to that culture.
Someone like me (who have such a mind) should not have become
the editor of that newsletter. There could be often friction
and it will cause the "balkanization" of the e-mail culture.
The original intention of the newsletter was
"Newsletter will be one of the *glue* of the communities in the ASF
umbrella, beyond the artificial boundaries of technical languages etc.
Hope this can gradually lead the good course of the ASF, avoiding the
balkanization of each projects and keep the hand tightly with various
projects.": cooperative collaboration space for all the contributors
... It seems that the newsletter itself is going to the contrary.
Very sad.
I am willing to resign.
Thank you for reading.
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:08:19 -0400
(Subject: RE: Inappropriate use of announce@)
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Tetsuya,
>
> All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the
> sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all.
>
> You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to
> do so, IMO.
>
> --- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org http://www.terra-intl.com/
Apache Software Foundation Committer: http://www.apache.org/~tetsuya/
fingerprint: E420 3713 FAB0 C160 4A1E 6FC5 5846 23D6 80AE BDEA
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by John Keyes <jb...@mac.com>.
Tetsuya,
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should
> continue to do so, IMO.
+1, your contribution is very much appreciated.
-John K
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RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Tetsuya,
All that David was asking is that you post a SHORT announcement, like the
sample I posted, rather than the ENTIRE newsletter. That is all.
You did a great job, as usual, on the newsletter, and you should continue to
do so, IMO.
--- Noel
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