[DoubleDown Interactive ] Re: Re: It’s time to change the name

["Hanna (DoubleDown Interactive )" <su...@doubledowncasino1.zendesk.com>]

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Hanna, Apr 29, 2022, 15:24 PDT

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Dev, Apr 29, 2022, 15:21 PDT

Schools and sports teams changing their names is trivial in comparison
to the scope of work here. How many schools or sports teams have their
name as part of APIs? This is on the level of deprecating .com in DNS
in favor of something else.

The concrete ideas like a new logo sound far more tractable, as would
things like no longer allowing new ASF projects to name themselves
after native culture.

As for a poll about willingness to change the name, I don't think
there will be useful results from such a poll without a more specific
set of questions. Perhaps aiming it towards a spectrum of options on
how to proceed with one end being no change and the other end being
full rename could be useful? For example, suppose there's much more
support in doing something like a logo change versus a name change; it
wouldn't be productive to poll about binary options as we wouldn't be
able to figure out which options may already be widely supported.

On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 4:10 PM Walter Cameron
<wa...@waltercameron.com> wrote:
>
> I'm encouraged by the appetite for change expressed here, gunalchéesh to
> everyone for hearing me out and sharing your ideas and fleshing out more of
> a plan.
>
> I agree with everyone here that it’s a mountain of work to change the name,
> it took years to get us to this point and Myrle is right it will take
> decades to correct. I’ll do whatever I can and I’m sure others will also
> but decolonizing open source will take generations. It took the Washington
> Football Team a few seasons to pick a new name. I’m not saying a stopgap
> name is needed, but maybe just a commitment to changing the name from the
> membership could be a first point added to Myrle's outline. My gut also
> says that despite the work, even the larger software community would
> welcome a new name.
>
> I think Ed is right that educating and driving the community to enact
> change will be a group effort. Maybe if a vote or poll of the membership
> indicated an openness to change that would encourage further effort and
> volunteers to do the work. I know I’ve been in a lot of groups where people
> knowingly went down the wrong path just because they thought that’s what
> the group wanted, when really everyone was just following everyone else and
> maybe ASF’s branding is just such a situation.
>
> Walter
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:44 PM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
>
> > I’m also willing to take on some of the tasks. I do want to point out that
> > if we over-decompose the problem, we’re just going to push the perception
> > of it being one problem that is too big to too many problems. Many of the
> > tasks and work are going to fail into categories, and there are going to be
> > many different ways to categorize the problems (hopefully to minimize the
> > impact of some of those dependencies).
> >
> > I’m curious why there has to be one single person to “drive” the effort.
> > If we have a sufficient number of people (but not too many) that are
> > willing to take on some of the tasks, why can’t those tasks be to drive it
> > by committee?
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Date: April 29, 2022 at 15:35:06
> > To: Community <de...@community.apache.org>
> > Subject:  Re: It’s time to change the name
> >
> > Walter,
> >
> > The assertion that we have paid staff, while correct, isn't particularly
> > relevant to the question. All of the top level leadership positions at
> > The
> > Foundation are unpaid volunteer roles, including
> > * President,
> > * Executive Vice President,
> > * VP Infra,
> > * VP Brand,
> > * VP Fundraising,
> > * Treasurer,
> > * VP Legal,
> > * VP Conferences,
> > * VP Privacy.
> >
> > Contractors have contracts with (more or less) well-defined scopes that
> > can't be expanded to include this kind of ad hoc work, without contract
> > negotiations, and added costs.
> >
> > All of these volunteers are doing this work in their free time while also
> > doing the work the use to put food on their family's tables.
> >
> > That having been said, my gut tells me that the majority of The
> > Foundation
> > members agree that the name is sub-optimal. People just don't know how to
> > fix it. IMO: The first step would be to break the change you are asking
> > for down into steps small enough that people can imagine taking them on,
> > or
> > that it is possible to contract out under the oversight of a volunteer.
> > Y'all check me, but I see:
> >
> > * Picking a new name and achieving consensus that it's the right name.
> > * Legally changing the name of The Foundation itself.
> > * Understanding how this affects the many business relationships the
> > Foundation has, and mitigating those effects.
> > * Designing new names and logos for the many brands The Foundation owns,
> > including project branding (eg "Apache Cassandra") the feather logo, the
> > incubator logo, etc.
> > * Registering a new website domain.
> > * Namespaces/packages/artifact names/etc in The Foundation's many
> > projects.
> > * Getting OSI approval for a new license identical to "Apache License
> > 2.0",
> > but under a new name. Getting that new license listed in various license
> > pickers.
> > * Marketing the new name so that it reaches a similar level of
> > recognition
> > as the old name.
> > * ...all the things I didn't think of.
> >
> > Some of this work will cross multiple jurisdictions. For example there
> > has
> > already been significant effort that I don't fully understand
> > establishing
> > Apache branding in China. Those efforts would have to be restarted. You'd
> > need to get support from our Chinese members.
> >
> > There are dependencies between some of these items. For example, you
> > should get a new website domain before you can change artifact names.
> > Possibly you would leave old artifacts with the old name, and only use
> > the
> > new name for new artifacts.
> >
> > Each of these tasks would touch a different set of areas of The
> > Foundation. For example, legally changing the Foundation's name would
> > fall
> > under VP Legal. Infra would have to register new domain names, and set up
> > redirects, including to the ApacheCon domains. VP Conferences would have
> > to adjust the conference branding. VP Fundraising might need to notify
> > all
> > of our sponsors. etc. All in all this would be thousands of hours of
> > work, that would need coordinating across multiple volunteers who are
> > interested in doing a good job, but not necessarily able to respond to
> > tasks on deadlines. And at the end it would certainly be impossible to
> > fully complete it, because for example, changing package names would
> > break
> > client code.
> >
> > Despite the complexity of the full change, some of these tasks are
> > independent of the others and can be taken on without an expectation that
> > all tasks would be completed. For example, registering a new domain name,
> > and developing a consensus that it can be used instead of "apache" in new
> > projects might be possible without doing a full-on name change.
> > Introducing the same license under a new name might also be possible. And
> > replacing our logo with something more respectful might also be possible
> > without touching anything else. To tease out tasks like this would
> > require
> > someone with an interest in doing the hard work of decomposing the
> > problem,
> > discovering which pieces are independently solvable, developing consensus
> > that a change should be made, and then doing each change itself.
> >
> > Please recognize that to fully complete what I'm describing here will
> > take
> > years, possibly more than a decade of work, and that it will probably
> > never
> > be fully completed, and that it will require buy-in from hundreds,
> > possibly
> > thousands of people. To achieve full buy-in, you'd need to convince
> > people
> > not only that the work is worth doing, but also that you are in it for as
> > long as the task will take. With all that as context: if someone is
> > willing to do that work of driving that effort, then I'm willing to take
> > on
> > some individual tasks in the process that fall within my area of
> > expertise. But I personally am not willing to *drive* that effort, and I
> > haven't seen that anyone else is willing to either.
> >
> > Walter, when someone replies "You want this change, but are you willing
> > to
> > do the work?" this may be what they are asking. Despite all of that, your
> > statements about the disrespect of the name and the logos, and some of
> > the
> > project names are valid. The hurt you describe is real. And I wish it
> > weren't so.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Myrle Krantz
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:24 PM Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I think it would be useful to poll ASF members' opinions. This would
> > > not be a vote (in the sense that any action would result if the vote
> > > 'passes') even though we may choose to implement the poll using STevE
> > > during a members meeting. It would allow us to gauge where opinions
> > > are, and track changes in members' opinions over time.
> > >
> > > As others have noted, a discussion followed by a vote would likely be
> > > divisive, because the discussion would be dominated by those with the
> > > most polarized opinions.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 10:36 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Sam and Andrew for helping provide visibility!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>
> > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 13:35:41
> > > > To: Apache Community Dev <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > >
> > > > Moving board to bcc. Mixing public and private mailing lists is not a
> > > > good idea.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 12:48 PM Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Copying them now.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 9:46 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > @Andrew,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do we engage the board?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 12:44:28
> > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 8:28 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree that putting it to a member vote is possibly polarizing
> > > (and
> > > > > > > premature). That’s not really the intent here. A poll is a
> > dipstick
> > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > to check the temperature before we reach strategy and tactics.
> > > Polling
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > more about discovery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think you'll get a similar reaction from a poll.
> > > >
> > > > I personally think a poll is premature. At the moment, you don't have
> > > > a proposed name, scope, or size of effort. Without a definition, it
> > > > isn't clear what people will be expressing support for (or against).
> > > > It is OK to leave some parts TBD for a poll, but for a poll to be
> > > > useful there needs to be some substance.
> > > >
> > > > > > > I’m all for the outreach. For my own clarification, are you
> > > looking at
> > > > > > > this as a means of defining boundaries on the effort, setting
> > > urgency
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > the efforts (or some combination of both?)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think this is such an expansive and encompassing topic that
> > covers
> > > > > > almost
> > > > > > every aspect of the operations of the foundation that it might be
> > > smart
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > the board to have a look and build up a plan before doing any ad
> > hoc
> > > > > > outreach.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is this something you’re willing to do or kick off?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I personally don't have bandwidth to participate in activities on
> > > this,
> > > > > > no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Is there any reason why we can’t move forward with both a poll
> > and
> > > > > > > outreach?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I think this is a board decision but I am not a lawyer.
> > > >
> > > > Board decision will come much later. Meanwhile, many board members
> > > > watch this list.
> > > >
> > > > - Sam Ruby
> > > >
> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman <ak...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Date: April 29, 2022 at 10:14:05
> > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > Cc: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Speaking as someone in the Pacific Northwest US, where we say
> > land
> > > > > > > acknowledgement for the Duwamish tribe at the beginning of all
> > > school
> > > > > > > events, meaning I respect and understand the motivation for
> > this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think simply opening this up for a member vote will result in
> > an
> > > > > > > unproductive firefight. Reactions will range from enthusiastic
> > > sympathy
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > bewildered annoyance to outright hostile accusations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Can I propose an outreach to some Apache tribe governments so
> > we
> > > can
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > dialog with them directly, and start to understand what their
> > > official
> > > > > > > experience of the ASF branding is?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Then we could formulate a plan after some deliberation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The plan could include logo redesign if the feather symbol is
> > > viewed as
> > > > > > > insensitive, for example, and other changes balanced with
> > > feasibility
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > community values.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 6:29 AM me <me...@emangini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Christian
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You’re very welcome! I think an internal poll has a great way
> > of
> > > > > > > defining
> > > > > > > > footholds. It’s going to be hard to craft to avoid
> > confirmation
> > > bias,
> > > > > > > but I
> > > > > > > > think it’s definitely possible.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Matt
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I agree. There is no doubt that this is something that would
> > > require
> > > > > > > > stages. Approaching this “Big Bang” style is going to fail
> > pretty
> > > > > > > quickly.
> > > > > > > > I’m thinking the effort is going to be an amalgam of the
> > > Washington
> > > > > > > > Redskins -> Commanders effort + the migration from JUnit 4 to
> > 5.
> > > This
> > > > > > > > definitely hits on the “strategic” aspect of Sam’s initial
> > > questions.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think we can probably differentiate a brand change and a
> > name
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > separate efforts (or at the very least separate life cycles).
> > > Large
> > > > > > > > organizations that acquire startups and small companies often
> > > rebrand
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > acquired assets and their products to better fit their
> > > business/tech
> > > > > > > > strategy. However, underlying assets (repos, docs, materials)
> > are
> > > > > > > retrofit
> > > > > > > > at a slower burn.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think the first action item is probably a poll. I’m happy
> > to
> > > > > > pair/mob
> > > > > > > > (virtually or otherwise) on it with someone. Are there any
> > > particular
> > > > > > > > psychometrics we’d like to leverage (i.e. Likert?)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @Walter, do you want to take a first stab at a poll? Maybe we
> > > can put
> > > > > > > > together a small tiger team to carry it out?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 18:45:07
> > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Defining a scope here is also fairly important. For example,
> > the
> > > > > > > > apache.org domain name is fairly baked into a lot of
> > > unchangeable
> > > > > > > > places such as Java package names, every single released
> > > artifact,
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > software license itself (which is used by tons of people
> > outside
> > > of
> > > > > > > > ASF), all the existing public URLs to things, email
> > addresses,
> > > > > > signing
> > > > > > > > keys, the GitHub organization name, tons of infrastructure
> > > > > > > > configuration, finance documents, corporate documents,
> > > trademarks,
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > surely other areas I'm forgetting.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If we have a name change and only update the places where
> > it's
> > > easy
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > do so, the name Apache will still be highly visible in tons
> > of
> > > key
> > > > > > > > areas for the indefinite future. This isn't even considering
> > > > > > > > downstream users of Apache software, either, who may or may
> > not
> > > adopt
> > > > > > > > a rename. These are some of the fairly intractable concerns
> > I've
> > > had
> > > > > > > > about a name change, and that's even after working with
> > another
> > > OSS
> > > > > > > > project that went through a name change and still has tons of
> > > > > > > > references to its old names due to compatibility issues.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022 at 3:49 PM Christian Grobmeier
> > > > > > > > <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 22:19, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > Christian,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Were you thinking of an internal poll? That’s actually a
> > > > > > > spectacular
> > > > > > > > idea.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, that was I was thinking. Basically a poll on members@,
> >
> > > since
> > > > > > (I
> > > > > > > > guess) members would eventually decide on that proposal.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > How do we go about kicking that off?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not so sure either, but I guess writing the poll and
> > > proposing
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > to community@ would be a first step. Once decided on the
> > > content we
> > > > > > > could
> > > > > > > > vote on sending it, and then send it to members@
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Others may have different ideas, but that is my first idea
> > on
> > > it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for calling my idea spectacular, it gives me a warm
> > > feeling,
> > > > > > > > since I didn't think of it as such :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Kind regards,
> > > > > > > > > Christian
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Ed Mangini
> > > > > > > > > > me@emangini.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From: Christian Grobmeier <gr...@apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > > Date: April 28, 2022 at 15:43:04
> > > > > > > > > > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Hello,
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2022, at 20:57, me wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> > The desire to make the change is definitely there. I
> > echo
> > > > > > > Walter’s
> > > > > > > > > >> > passion and statements.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >> > I also agree w/ Sam that this isn’t going to be easy
> > to
> > > > > > > > accomplish.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> +1
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Perhaps a starting point would be to answer these
> > > questions in
> > > > > > > > concert:
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what is the LOE to perform the rebranding/renaming?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - are there enough volunteers within the organization
> > > willing
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > participate?
> > > > > > > > > >> > - what does the community think?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I want to emphasize that this last question is a point
> > of
> > > no
> > > > > > > > return. If
> > > > > > > > > >> > we start creating surveys and asking about our brand,
> > it’s
> > > > > > going
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > >> > chum the waters.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Agreed. I would have thought to make a poll in the
> > community
> > > > > > > first-
> > > > > > > > briefly explain the issue and see what the community
> > > (non-binding)
> > > > > > vote
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > - just checking sentiments.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> I am afraid there will be a lot of headwinds. But based
> > on
> > > the
> > > > > > > > outcome one could decide if its more work to explain the issue
> > or
> > > > > > > actually
> > > > > > > > solve the issue.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Also a quick poll could stir up some people who are
> > > interested
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > helping.
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > >> Christian
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > From: Walter Cameron <wa...@waltercameron.com>
> > > > > > > > > >> > Reply: dev@community.apache.org <
> > dev@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Date: April 28, 2022 at 01:29:03
> > > > > > > > > >> > To: dev@community.apache.org <de...@community.apache.org>
> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: It’s time to change the name
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2022 at 6:40 PM Sam Ruby <
> > > > > > rubys@intertwingly.net>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >> Walter: what are you personally willing to volunteer
> > to
> > > do?
> > > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > >> >> your plan? What resources do you need?
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Honestly Sam the extent of my plan was to bring
> > attention
> > > to
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > issue and
> > > > > > > > > >> > the harms it’s caused. Beyond that I’m kinda winging
> > it
> > > but I
> > > > > > > > appreciate
> > > > > > > > > >> > your eagerness and openness to change. I had hoped I’d
> > > speak
> > > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > >> > would finally pull their heads out of the sand and work
> > to
> > > > > > undo
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > harm
> > > > > > > > > >> > they’ve caused.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > ASF’s brand violates its own CoC. You would think that
> > > might
> > > > > > > spur
> > > > > > > > effort
> > > > > > > > > >> > for change by those perpetuating the harm, but if you
> > > want me
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >> > work I’ll do whatever I can. I’m not that familiar
> > with
> > > the
> > > > > > > details
> > > > > > > > of the
> > > > > > > > > >> > organization, surely not as familiar as one of its
> > > Directors,
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > a lot
> > > > > > > > > >> > of ways I don’t fully understand the scope of what
> > needs
> > > to be
> > > > > > > > done, but
> > > > > > > > > >> > I’m willing to volunteer a few weekends of my
> > rudimentary
> > > > > > > technical
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > >> > design skills to run a “Find & Replace…” and put
> > together
> > > a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > > > logo or
> > > > > > > > > >> > whatever you think would be helpful in this effort. I
> > > haven’t
> > > > > > > > designed a
> > > > > > > > > >> > logo in probably 15 years but I’m willing to give it a
> > > try.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > I would have assumed that an organization with a paid
> > > staff
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > goals to
> > > > > > > > > >> > increase the diversity of its contributors and
> > continue
> > > > > > > receiving
> > > > > > > > corporate
> > > > > > > > > >> > donations would understand that the costs of inaction
> > > outweigh
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > costs of
> > > > > > > > > >> > action here.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Let me know what else I can do to help.
> > > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > > >> > Walter
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > dev-help@community.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
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> >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
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> > > >
> > >
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> > >
> >

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