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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> on 2012/05/22 03:37:54 UTC
[Comment] Apache software is always free
Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
http://www.apache.org/free
Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
- Shane
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On May 22, 2012, at 11:03 AM, Kay Schenk wrote:
> On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 21, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Looking good. I would go with it. It is certainly something that the
>> Apache OpenOffice project can use to refer people too.
>>>
>>
>> +1 - as well.
>>
>> I think that we should link to this page.
>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> PS: A problem not for immediate solution: The link at the end about
>> mailing lists is a little indirect. On the other hand, linking to the page
>> that lists all of the mailing list archives is not it either. It appears
>> that there is not a handy shallow link that finds individual projects and
>> information about contacting them, accessing their lists, for end users who
>> have questions. Perhaps search engines will come to the rescue.
>>
>> - The link can be an "Alway Free" button on the topnav.
>>
>
> I like this idea a lot -- we could always reinforcement of this.
> I'm not that keen on adding it as an extra item in the topnav, however.
>
> I don't have an alternate suggestion except maybe linking it in from our
> "The Free and Open Productivity Suite" somehow.
>
> enh...????
I agree that is better.
Given Jim J's comment I think we'll want our own version of the page in mdtext. Probably as "free.mdtext". We'll need to adjust brand.mdtext and templates/brand.html to include the page's url. NL teams can adjust to link to translations in the NL directory. It is possible to translate the mdtext.
Regards,
Dave
>
>
>> Does the project want to provide translations to make the information more
>> accessible?
>>
>> If so, we can make our own version of your page with our project MLs and
>> translations. Somehow we would want to follow edits to your original page
>> and incorporate as appropriate.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
>>> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 18:38
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: [Comment] Apache software is always free
>>>
>>> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
>>> figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/free
>>>
>>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>>>
>>> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
>>> since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
>>> user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
>>> to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>>>
>>> - Shane
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MzK
>
> "The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
> -- Mark Twain
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, May 21, 2012 at 7:05 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On May 21, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > Looking good. I would go with it. It is certainly something that the
> Apache OpenOffice project can use to refer people too.
> >
>
> +1 - as well.
>
> I think that we should link to this page.
>
> > - Dennis
> >
> > PS: A problem not for immediate solution: The link at the end about
> mailing lists is a little indirect. On the other hand, linking to the page
> that lists all of the mailing list archives is not it either. It appears
> that there is not a handy shallow link that finds individual projects and
> information about contacting them, accessing their lists, for end users who
> have questions. Perhaps search engines will come to the rescue.
>
> - The link can be an "Alway Free" button on the topnav.
>
I like this idea a lot -- we could always reinforcement of this.
I'm not that keen on adding it as an extra item in the topnav, however.
I don't have an alternate suggestion except maybe linking it in from our
"The Free and Open Productivity Suite" somehow.
enh...????
> Does the project want to provide translations to make the information more
> accessible?
>
> If so, we can make our own version of your page with our project MLs and
> translations. Somehow we would want to follow edits to your original page
> and incorporate as appropriate.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
> > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 18:38
> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: [Comment] Apache software is always free
> >
> > Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
> > figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
> >
> > http://www.apache.org/free
> >
> > Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
> >
> > The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
> > since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
> > user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
> > to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
> >
> > - Shane
> >
>
>
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
-- Mark Twain
RE: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1 Dave, great additions
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Fisher [mailto:dave2wave@comcast.net]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 19:05
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
On May 21, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> +1
>
> Looking good. I would go with it. It is certainly something that the Apache OpenOffice project can use to refer people too.
>
+1 - as well.
I think that we should link to this page.
> - Dennis
>
> PS: A problem not for immediate solution: The link at the end about mailing lists is a little indirect. On the other hand, linking to the page that lists all of the mailing list archives is not it either. It appears that there is not a handy shallow link that finds individual projects and information about contacting them, accessing their lists, for end users who have questions. Perhaps search engines will come to the rescue.
- The link can be an "Alway Free" button on the topnav.
Does the project want to provide translations to make the information more accessible?
If so, we can make our own version of your page with our project MLs and translations. Somehow we would want to follow edits to your original page and incorporate as appropriate.
Regards,
Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 18:38
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [Comment] Apache software is always free
>
> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
> figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>
> http://www.apache.org/free
>
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
> since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
> user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
> to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>
> - Shane
>
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On May 21, 2012, at 6:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> +1
>
> Looking good. I would go with it. It is certainly something that the Apache OpenOffice project can use to refer people too.
>
+1 - as well.
I think that we should link to this page.
> - Dennis
>
> PS: A problem not for immediate solution: The link at the end about mailing lists is a little indirect. On the other hand, linking to the page that lists all of the mailing list archives is not it either. It appears that there is not a handy shallow link that finds individual projects and information about contacting them, accessing their lists, for end users who have questions. Perhaps search engines will come to the rescue.
- The link can be an "Alway Free" button on the topnav.
Does the project want to provide translations to make the information more accessible?
If so, we can make our own version of your page with our project MLs and translations. Somehow we would want to follow edits to your original page and incorporate as appropriate.
Regards,
Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 18:38
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: [Comment] Apache software is always free
>
> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
> figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>
> http://www.apache.org/free
>
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
> since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
> user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
> to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>
> - Shane
>
RE: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
Looking good. I would go with it. It is certainly something that the Apache OpenOffice project can use to refer people too.
- Dennis
PS: A problem not for immediate solution: The link at the end about mailing lists is a little indirect. On the other hand, linking to the page that lists all of the mailing list archives is not it either. It appears that there is not a handy shallow link that finds individual projects and information about contacting them, accessing their lists, for end users who have questions. Perhaps search engines will come to the rescue.
-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:asf@shanecurcuru.org]
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 18:38
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
http://www.apache.org/free
Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
- Shane
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 22 May 2012 10:46:58 -0400
Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > Please avoid the loaded term "free"...
>
> I started to laugh. :-)
> /me wishes this or that US presidential candidate could read this, or
> for that matter, George Orwell. :-/ I suggest, then, we use, rather,
> "unencumbered"--a term which actually has real meaning.
>
"no charge" or "no cost" might be better.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Please avoid the loaded term "free"...
I started to laugh. :-)
/me wishes this or that US presidential candidate could read this, or
for that matter, George Orwell. :-/ I suggest, then, we use, rather,
"unencumbered"--a term which actually has real meaning.
--
Cheers,
Louis
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Please avoid the loaded term "free"...
Also, you need to differentiate between s/w available directly
from the ASF, which is always no-charge, to Apache s/w available
from vendors which may have a cost associated with it ("What
do you mean you're charging me for Hadoop!? Apache sez their
s/w is always free!").
As such, I feel the page confuses things more than it clarifies
it. :/
On May 21, 2012, at 9:37 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>
> http://www.apache.org/free
>
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling, since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>
> - Shane
>
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Some of this is also covered explicitly in readme.txt/readme.html in the
root of an installed build, which is great. Although it seems the text
there could use a few updates for Apache branding and the like. 8-)
----
Separately, it would be good sometime to think through which kinds of
links - especially those within actual releases - point to oo.o URLs
versus a.o URLs. While we certainly want to keep oo.o as a key end-user
facing resource, we should ensure we have sufficient links and
references to the official a.o website to make it clear where the
software comes from.
Obviously this should wait until after graduation, when the official
homepage of the project is at (presumably) ooo.apache.org!
- Shane
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Roberto Galoppini <rg...@geek.net>.
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2012-05-22 3:42 AM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Andrea Pescetti<pe...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.apache.org/free
>>>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open Source
>>> Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the Free
>>> Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it qualifies as
>>> Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used to ship under
>>> a
>>> GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to be sure that the
>>> license change gives them more freedom and not less freedom than before.
>
>
> True, although this URL is meant for ASF-wide use, not just for AOO. So I'm
> trying to keep the information as simple (and conflict-inducing phrases
> free) as possible. But I think a mention that we meet both OSI and FSF
> guidelines is worth adding.
>
>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea.
>>
>>
>>
>> Great job Shane, I'd consider a couple of minor changes.
>>
>> Add in the first paragraph that it can be used for any purpose and you
>> can make copies. I know that a careful reader could read it below, but
>> many just read the very first paragraph.
>
>
> Good point.
>
>
>>
>> I'd consider also to add in the "Is Apache software free to use? May I
>> use it for any purpose?" section a couple of hints for who want to
>> repackage it, so that we can point this people to thart page.
>
>
> Again, this page is primarily meant to be a memorable URL to provide as a
> reference for the "do I ever have to pay for Apache software" type question.
Gotcha.
> What information for repackagers do you mean? Wouldn't that kind of
> information better go on the /legal or /licenses areas anyway?
Definitely.
Roberto
> - Shane
>
>>
>> Roberto
--
====
This e- mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above. It
may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachment(s) is strictly
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notify the sender by replying to this e-mail and delete the message and any
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Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 2012-05-22 3:42 AM, Roberto Galoppini wrote:
> On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Andrea Pescetti<pe...@apache.org> wrote:
>> Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/free
>>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>>
>>
>> I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open Source
>> Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the Free
>> Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it qualifies as
>> Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used to ship under a
>> GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to be sure that the
>> license change gives them more freedom and not less freedom than before.
True, although this URL is meant for ASF-wide use, not just for AOO. So
I'm trying to keep the information as simple (and conflict-inducing
phrases free) as possible. But I think a mention that we meet both OSI
and FSF guidelines is worth adding.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea.
>
>
> Great job Shane, I'd consider a couple of minor changes.
>
> Add in the first paragraph that it can be used for any purpose and you
> can make copies. I know that a careful reader could read it below, but
> many just read the very first paragraph.
Good point.
>
> I'd consider also to add in the "Is Apache software free to use? May I
> use it for any purpose?" section a couple of hints for who want to
> repackage it, so that we can point this people to thart page.
Again, this page is primarily meant to be a memorable URL to provide as
a reference for the "do I ever have to pay for Apache software" type
question.
What information for repackagers do you mean? Wouldn't that kind of
information better go on the /legal or /licenses areas anyway?
- Shane
>
> Roberto
>
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Roberto Galoppini <rg...@geek.net>.
On Tue, May 22, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org> wrote:
> Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/free
>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
>
> I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open Source
> Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the Free
> Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it qualifies as
> Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used to ship under a
> GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to be sure that the
> license change gives them more freedom and not less freedom than before.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
Great job Shane, I'd consider a couple of minor changes.
Add in the first paragraph that it can be used for any purpose and you
can make copies. I know that a careful reader could read it below, but
many just read the very first paragraph.
I'd consider also to add in the "Is Apache software free to use? May I
use it for any purpose?" section a couple of hints for who want to
repackage it, so that we can point this people to thart page.
Roberto
--
====
This e- mail message is intended only for the named recipient(s) above. It
may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution or copying of this e-mail and any attachment(s) is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately
notify the sender by replying to this e-mail and delete the message and any
attachment(s) from your system. Thank you.
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Roberto Resoli <ro...@gmail.com>.
2012/5/22 Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>:
> Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/free
>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
>
> I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open Source
> Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the Free
> Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it qualifies as
> Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used to ship under a
> GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to be sure that the
> license change gives them more freedom and not less freedom than before.
I definitely agree!
bye,
rob
> Regards,
> Andrea.
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Shane Curcuru wrote:
> http://www.apache.org/free
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
I would add, when you state that the Apache License meets the Open
Source Initiative's (OSI) Open Source Definition, that it also meets the
Free Software Foundation's Free Software definition and thus it
qualifies as Free/Libre software. In the case of OpenOffice, which used
to ship under a GNU license, this would be helpful to users who want to
be sure that the license change gives them more freedom and not less
freedom than before.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 05/21/2012 06:37 PM, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
> figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>
> http://www.apache.org/free
>
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
> since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
> user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding to
> address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>
> - Shane
lovely! nice job!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated."
-- Mark Twain
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 2012-05-22 1:41 AM, Rory O'Farrell wrote:
> On Mon, 21 May 2012 21:37:54 -0400 Shane
> Curcuru<as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
>
>> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have
>> AOO, I figured we need an official URL and resource to point to
>> when people ask.
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/free
>>
>> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more
>> clearly?
>>
>> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO
>> podling, since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge
>> non-technical user base). Is there anything in particular we
>> should consider adding to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>>
>> - Shane
>>
>
> The Project list might benefit from a few explanatory words attached
> to each Project name, as these names can be rather esoteric; remember
> we are not preaching to the converted who know Apache software is
> free, but to a puzzled stranger.out t
True, but the purpose of this page is singular: answer the question
about "do I have to pay for Apache software". So I'm trying to keep it
as short and sweet - yet still explain the concepts - as possible.
>
> As this request for review is posted on an OpenOffice list, I remark
> that the presence of OpenOffice is not readily apparent. I have not
> statistics before me of uptake of all Apache projects, but I would
> expect that OpenOffice (although Incubating) is or shortly will be
> among the front runners and deserves a presence.
>
Apache OpenOffice is listed alongside the webserver (first/most widely
used ASF project), and Hadoop and Lucene (both very visible in the
developer space these days).
Note that if AOO wants to create your own version of this page that
specifically addresses these points for AOO, please feel free. You
could then link to the /free page as reference, but explain the
OOo-specific issues in detail.
- Shane
Re: [Comment] Apache software is always free
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Mon, 21 May 2012 21:37:54 -0400
Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org> wrote:
> Since this question is coming up much much more now that we have AOO, I
> figured we need an official URL and resource to point to when people ask.
>
> http://www.apache.org/free
>
> Any glaring errors? Anything I should add, or express more clearly?
>
> The immediate driver for this as a memorable URL is the AOO podling,
> since you clearly have the greatest need (with the huge non-technical
> user base). Is there anything in particular we should consider adding
> to address AOO or OOo users specifically?
>
> - Shane
>
The Project list might benefit from a few explanatory words attached to each Project name, as these names can be rather esoteric; remember we are not preaching to the converted who know Apache software is free, but to a puzzled stranger.
As this request for review is posted on an OpenOffice list, I remark that the presence of OpenOffice is not readily apparent. I have not statistics before me of uptake of all Apache projects, but I would expect that OpenOffice (although Incubating) is or shortly will be among the front runners and deserves a presence.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>