Re: [Mifos-users] Mifos/Stellar Integration WAS: [Fwd: My Intro and Mojaloop]

[Stephen Agyepong <st...@gmail.com>]

Ed,

I will be happy to hear from  Tunde and their experience in Nigeria, which
I believe will be very similar to Ghana.
We have the chart of accounts setup for one micro-finance company. We are
hoping to have another setup within 2 weeks.

Any volunteers for the UI and mobile app?

Thanks

Stephen

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:

> Stephen,
>
> If you're not already connected with Tunde from the Stellar community let
> me make an introduction as perhaps he can help you with some or the
> regulatory challenges you're facing in Ghana.
>
> Stephen, since you seem pretty versed in the Stellar bridge, I'd love for
> you to take up some of the outstanding work on it as a volunteer and
> hopefully help us get some live use cases in place using the bridge.
>
> Myrle, thanks for providing that clarity to Stephen - hopefully if we get
> someone like Stephen (or there are some other contributors interested) to
> work on the remaining tasks for the bridge, you could give some guidance
> and oversight.
>
> For all the users that expressed an interest in being pilot users, here's
> the original pitch on what we're seeking: https://goo.gl/RiRxfC
>
> Right now the simplest use case that we'd like to focus on would involve
> the following:
>
> In-Country
> 1) Staff-Initiated money transfers via the Stellar protocol between the
> savings accounts of members at two separate financial institutions both
> using Fineract. Most of the functionality at back-end is in place we just
> need to build out the UI in the front-end web app
> 2) Client-initiated money transfers via the Stellar protocol via mobile
> banking app from their savings account to savings account of another
> individual at separate financial institution via stellar protocol. This
> would involve building this out into mobile banking app - most of UI is
> there just need to get bridge working
> 3) Transfers from a member savings account of a Fineract user to an
> external stellar wallet holder should also be possible but the focus of our
> pilots is on accountholders within Fineract.
>
> Cross-Border
> 4) Ultimate use case is to leverage Stellar for reducing cost of
> cross-border remittances and would aim to pilot this if regulatory
> challenges can be surmounted. Stellar team has been making good connections
> with anchors and market makers to facilitate currency exchange in the
> remittance corridors relevant to our community.
>
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:22 AM, Stephen Agyepong <
> stephenagyepong@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Myrle,
>>
>> It is a little complicated than this.
>> The issue as I understand it is that the software to run money transfer
>> has to be PCI/ISO 27001, etc certified
>> According to our contacts, with the BOG warning, it is going to be
>> difficult to get the necessary approval to proceed.
>> We have not given up on it but it is a very slow process at this point.
>>
>> I have looked at/played with the Stellar/Fineract Bridge code. I will say
>> it is an outstanding piece of code.
>> Thank you very much for putting out such a high quality software.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Stephen
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 2:03 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Stephen,
>>>
>>> While it is possible to trade lumens (a crypto currency with some
>>> properties similar to bitcoin) on the Stellar network, that’s not the main
>>> use case. The main use case is for tracking fiat currencies in a
>>> transparent, safe way.
>>>
>>> Unless the Bank of Ghana is also objecting to old-fashioned check
>>> writing or tracking debts in an SQL database, the text you cite would not
>>> apply to using Stellar for transferring fiat currencies.
>>>
>>> In the Stellar system, lumens are used as a currency-neutral reward
>>> system for providing a piece of the distributed infrastructure. You would
>>> only buy them to pay to make transactions (a fraction of a cent per
>>> transaction).
>>>
>>> This may or may not change your approach to Stellar, but it was
>>> important to me to set the record straight.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Myrle
>>> The committer who did the work on the Mifos/Stellar bridge
>>>
>>> On Wed 31. Jan 2018 at 05:05 Stephen Agyepong <st...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ed,
>>>>
>>>> We are currently in a state of flux given recent development in Ghana.
>>>> Micro-finance companies are no longer allowed to engage in money transfer.
>>>> The Bank of Ghana also recently cautioned the public on the use of virtual
>>>> or digital currencies in the country.
>>>> The central bank said it “has taken notice of recent developments in
>>>> the use, holding, and trading of virtual or digital currencies such as
>>>> bitcion” and “wishes to notify the general public that these activities in
>>>> digital currency are currently not licensed under the Payments System Act
>>>> 2003 (Act 662).”
>>>>
>>>> I am hopeful things will change and we will be able to proceed. I will
>>>> be happy to volunteer as the  Full Stack Developer, since I have done
>>>> work assessing the gaps and remaining work for the Stellar/Fineract bridge.
>>>> I looked at how we can bridge Fineract with other digital currencies with
>>>> Stellar as the default.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Stephen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 3:32 AM, Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Since this thread has likely fallen below everyone's radars, I wanted
>>>>> to bring it to attention once more as the community is still eager to see
>>>>> it brought to completion.
>>>>>
>>>>> I had a recent conversation with Tunde from Stellar and their
>>>>> developers are standing by, ready to assist once we have some concrete use
>>>>> cases from pilot organizations identified. Since so much time is transpired
>>>>> we'll have to identify how the points of integration with the Stellar SDK
>>>>> has changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a number of outstanding tasks where we could use volunteers
>>>>>
>>>>> MFIs/Financial Institutions - we're still seeking two organizations to
>>>>> pilot the integration to demonstrate a money transfer service - should be
>>>>> two separate legal entities, within the same country, using or willing to
>>>>> use Fineract, and willing to use Stellar
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Full Stack Developer - Assess the gaps and remaining work for the
>>>>> Stellar/Fineract bridge including changes in Stellar SDK between now and
>>>>> time of creating bridge.
>>>>> 2) Product Manager - translate these gaps into user stories for a
>>>>> volunteer to implement
>>>>> 3) Front-End Developer - implement the UI screens detailed in
>>>>> wireframes and for additional use cases needed by pilot org
>>>>> 4) Mobile Developer - complete UI flows for the initial use cases for
>>>>> initiating transfer via mobile banking app.
>>>>>
>>>>> See the wiki page at https://cwiki.apache.org/co
>>>>> nfluence/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=70256854 for full background on
>>>>> the work to date and wireframes for the UI.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ed
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Stephen Agyepong <
>>>>> stephenagyepong@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ed,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We are working on a Stellar wallet that we want to integrate with
>>>>>> Fineract. Please see the attached screenshots. We made a lot of progress
>>>>>> but there is still much to be accomplished. We intend to make it possible
>>>>>> to do money transfers using an integrated Stellar/Fineract. We will be
>>>>>> happy to pilot this work. We wanted to polish it up a bit before making it
>>>>>> public but if you are curious you can see it in action at:
>>>>>> http://dcubedev.com/ and github at: https://github.com/dcubede
>>>>>> v/dcubeapp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is designed to work with any underlying payment platform not just
>>>>>> Stellar though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stephen
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 4:43 AM, Ed Cable <ed...@mifos.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So as not to hijack James' thread on Mojaloop, I want to divert part
>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>> conversation around our existing Stellar/Mifos bridge on Apache
>>>>>>> Fineract
>>>>>>> 1.0 to a separate thread.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As background, Myrle and Bartek invested a significant amount of
>>>>>>> effort
>>>>>>> into the bridge but due to lack of concrete use cases to implement,
>>>>>>> development was put on hold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some additions to the bridge itself, and the front-end
>>>>>>> implementation of
>>>>>>> the UI along with a solidified use cases were needed to proceed
>>>>>>> forward.
>>>>>>> All of this project history and analysis has been documented on this
>>>>>>> wiki
>>>>>>> page: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/viewpage.act
>>>>>>> ion?pageId=70256854
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've struggled over the past year to get contributors to wrap up the
>>>>>>> remaining work and have cycle through a couple different volunteers
>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>> were going to take it on. I'm now working with Denila to fully bake
>>>>>>> out the
>>>>>>> remaining work as clear user stories that a dev can pick up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would still like to see this bridge get completed and work with
>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>> users in the community who would like to test out this service.
>>>>>>> Since so
>>>>>>> much time has elapsed we have missed our opportunity to be the first
>>>>>>> financial inclusion use case on Stellar but I feel it's still a
>>>>>>> valuable
>>>>>>> integration even if it's just for a proof concept.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I might be getting hung up on the sunk cost fallacy, and not
>>>>>>> wanting
>>>>>>> to let go of all the time and effort Myrle and team invested...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Should we continue trying to complete this integration with
>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>> Apache Fineract 1.0 or turn attention towards a bridge that's
>>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>>> with Fineract CN
>>>>>>> 2) Are there users in the community that want to pilot this first as
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> domestic money transfer service? There was a great deal of interest
>>>>>>> previously but difficulty in getting concrete use cases. We'd
>>>>>>> require two
>>>>>>> separate financial institutions running different instances of Apache
>>>>>>> Fineract.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ed
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 1:03 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: My Intro and Mojaloop
>>>>>>> To: dev <de...@fineract.apache.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey James,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now I've had the chance to take a closer look.  It's an interesting
>>>>>>> project.  I have a few comments and then a few questions:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Comments:
>>>>>>> 1.) Unfortunately several of the GitHub links you included were not
>>>>>>> reachable for me.  Not all of them, but several of them.
>>>>>>> 2.) As far as I can tell, as a payments transfer system, this has
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> little functionality overlap with Fineract or Fineract CN.
>>>>>>> 3.) Since this is a Ripple fork, it should be no surprise that it has
>>>>>>> massive overlap with a different Ripple fork that we've seen in this
>>>>>>> community before: Stellar.
>>>>>>> 4.) I agree that push payments, processed immediately, are the right
>>>>>>> way to
>>>>>>> go.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Questions:
>>>>>>> 1.) When we wrote the Stellar bridge one of the reasons it never
>>>>>>> reached deployment was the lack of existing deployments and users of
>>>>>>> the Stellar network.  (With the recent announcement that IBM and
>>>>>>> Stellar will be partnering this may yet change) Is someone deploying
>>>>>>> mojaloop?
>>>>>>> 2.) What, in your view, are the major differences between mojaloop
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Stellar? What are the advantages to mojaloop?
>>>>>>> 3.) Is someone at LevelOne considering implementing a
>>>>>>> Fineract-mojaloop bridge component similar to the Fineract-Stellar
>>>>>>> bridge component we've already written?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>> Myrle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:31 PM, James Dailey <
>>>>>>> jamespdailey@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> > Fineract'rs:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I joined this list recently and would like to introduce myself.  I
>>>>>>> > formulated the Mifos project in 2001 when working at the Grameen
>>>>>>> Technology
>>>>>>> > Center and am current chair of the Mifos Initiative - which is the
>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>> > that contributed the Fineract Code.  While I don't code myself, I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> > contributed time and energy over the past 16 years to make
>>>>>>> financial
>>>>>>> > inclusion via open source work for the poor. In that time, I've
>>>>>>> also had
>>>>>>> > the privilege of consulting on mobile money businesses, shared
>>>>>>> microfinance
>>>>>>> > platforms, and financial inclusion strategies in dozens of
>>>>>>> countries
>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>> > the world. For the past three and a half years I've worked as a
>>>>>>> (contract)
>>>>>>> > member of the LevelOneProject.org team at the Bill & Melinda Gates
>>>>>>> > Foundation.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I had an early role in articulating the case for what released
>>>>>>> this week
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> > open source code.  http://mojaloop.io/   I'd like to do a little
>>>>>>> context
>>>>>>> > setting here - all of this is on the leveloneproject.org or on
>>>>>>> mojaloop.io
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> > but perhaps I am in a good position to explain how the Fineract
>>>>>>> code base
>>>>>>> > could relate to the Mojaloop code. I suspect Markus is already
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> > about this... as are others. ;)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Mojaloop has as its main domain the transfer of value.
>>>>>>> Fundamentally, a
>>>>>>> way
>>>>>>> > to include people in the formal financial world is to create a more
>>>>>>> vibrant
>>>>>>> > ecosystem of operators providing different services to customers
>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>> > friction in payments is removed. e.g. Rather than having to walk
>>>>>>> or a take
>>>>>>> > a bus hours to make a payment for the kids school - you use the
>>>>>>> mobile
>>>>>>> > device to move funds. In the Mojaloop world, the DFSPs (Digital
>>>>>>> Financial
>>>>>>> > Service Providers) running a current version of Fineract could be
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > source and the destination for funds.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > While the world of payments can be arcane, one needs the ability
>>>>>>> to route
>>>>>>> > the payment to a specific account address and the ability to
>>>>>>> ensure that
>>>>>>> > the payment settles at end of day or sooner (as soon as real time).
>>>>>>> > Mojaloop has a novel approach for both of these.  In the first,
>>>>>>> mojaloop
>>>>>>> > leverages Pathfinder (
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/tree/master/CentralD
>>>>>>> irectory).
>>>>>>> > Pathfinder is a service of GSMA
>>>>>>> > https://www.gsma.com/managedservices/number-portability-
>>>>>>> services/about-pathfinder/
>>>>>>> > .
>>>>>>> > This innovation is important because it brings a different
>>>>>>> approach to
>>>>>>> > routing that is compatible with mobile telephony identity.  This
>>>>>>> code (
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/pathfinder-provisioning-client.)
>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>> > like a good way to understand how this works.  In the second,
>>>>>>> Mojaloop
>>>>>>> uses
>>>>>>> > work by Ripple Labs on the Interledger Protocol (ILP) (
>>>>>>> > https://interledger.org/) to settle across different payment
>>>>>>> schemes or
>>>>>>> > within a network of ledgers and for the mojaloop that is
>>>>>>> quintessially the
>>>>>>> > Central Hub.
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/blob/master/ILP/bloc
>>>>>>> k-diagram.png
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>> > This explanation is better than what I could write:
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/tree/master/ILP
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So, those two novel things are interesting and could be leveraged
>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>> > Fineract project today I would hazard.  I would suggest that one
>>>>>>> proof
>>>>>>> > point for compatibility would be to attempt to set up two
>>>>>>> instances of
>>>>>>> > Fineract (running with a mifos front end) and one instance of the
>>>>>>> mojaloop
>>>>>>> > Central Hub that allows for transfers to occur.
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/blob/master/L1P%
>>>>>>> 20Architecture%20and%20Payment%20Flow.pdf
>>>>>>> > It would likely require some additional work to make the APIs
>>>>>>> compatible.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Also, the centralized fraud service and scheme rules setting are
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> > useful and not likely to be an overlap with the existing Fineract
>>>>>>> > direction, although do set me straight if I am wrong.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > In the Fineract-CN proposed code evolution (see other threads on
>>>>>>> this), we
>>>>>>> > have a need to understand how the Mojaloop intersects with the new
>>>>>>> > microservices architecture.  I would suggest however that since
>>>>>>> mojaloop
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> > primarily about the transfer of value and Fineract-CN is primarily
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> > the management of accounts and clients and access points, that the
>>>>>>> overlap
>>>>>>> > is minimal.  Dare I compare this to chocolate and peanut butter
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> > wonderful collision which is the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup?  We'll
>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > As an idea, when building the microservices, it may be possible to
>>>>>>> wrap
>>>>>>> > some of the libraries or services that were released under
>>>>>>> mojaloop - if
>>>>>>> > licenses are compatible of course.  On that the mojaloop team
>>>>>>> choose
>>>>>>> > Creative Commons Share Alike 4.0.  If there is a mentor who can
>>>>>>> answer
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> > - it would be good to know.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > There is also a need to understand the flows that are - in my view
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> > payments done right.  That is, payments or transfer of value, occur
>>>>>>> outside
>>>>>>> > of the signaling for those payments and are push and process
>>>>>>> immediately.
>>>>>>> > I've addressed this in another post recently but basically the
>>>>>>> flows are
>>>>>>> > well documented and the APIs are using the latest and greatest -
>>>>>>> Fineract
>>>>>>> > could benefit from simply reviewing that documentation.
>>>>>>> > https://leveloneproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/The-
>>>>>>> Level-One-Project-Guide-Designing-a-New-System-for-Financial
>>>>>>> -Inclusion1.pdf
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >   https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/tree/master/Central
>>>>>>> Ledger  ;
>>>>>>> >   https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/tree/master/LevelOn
>>>>>>> eClient ;
>>>>>>> > https://github.com/LevelOneProject/Docs/blob/master/Interop%
>>>>>>> 20Services%20and%20Mule/PaymentFlow.png
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > i'm trying to find the API documentation -- it's a big project,
>>>>>>> maybe the
>>>>>>> > subject of another email.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Finally, there are a lot of highly qualified people on this
>>>>>>> listserv who
>>>>>>> > could help identify some of the paths that would lead to some
>>>>>>> win-wins on
>>>>>>> > this front.  I look forward to the conversation.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > - James Dailey
>>>>>>> > Seattle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> *Ed Cable*
>>>>>>> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
>>>>>>> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>>>>>>> <(484)%20477-8649>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *
>>>>>>> http://mifos.org
>>>>>>> <http://facebook.com/mifos>  <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> *Ed Cable*
>>>>> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
>>>>> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
>>>>> <(484)%20477-8649>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
>>>>>   <http://facebook.com/mifos>  <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> *Ed Cable*
> President/CEO, Mifos Initiative
> edcable@mifos.org | Skype: edcable | Mobile: +1.484.477.8649
> <(484)%20477-8649>
>
> *Collectively Creating a World of 3 Billion Maries | *http://mifos.org
> <http://facebook.com/mifos>  <http://www.twitter.com/mifos>
>
>