Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>]

Hey CouchDB folks.

We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
little effort to solve it.

The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
`user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
process for old school developers/community members, it might look
confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.

My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
**user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
<us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
like that.

We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
the process through a web page.

Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?

*QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*

-- 
Joel Wallis Jucá
joelwallis.com

Re: Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Michelle Phung <mi...@gmail.com>]

nice!
both a page and sending the hash link a good idea. 
i didn't realize but now that you say it like thats pretty clear.

- Michelle

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 3:10 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 20 Jan 2017, at 19:56, Michelle Phung <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> hey,
>> 
>> i think Joels idea is a good one. what i think was meant was instead of current text, send an html email with buttons that would make it clearer. its still being accepted/unaccepted from inside their email mailbox.  i can ping in the infra channel to see if theres any interest or maybe they have something in works? this still might be un-possible just because i think there is some security feature that only allows plain-text for emailing. but reworking all apache subscription emails... what a cool project if we got the green light!
> 
> sure … give it a try … 
> 
>> in the mean time, maybe we can make a tutorial or web page to walk people thru subscription/unsubscription on the couch site? 
> 
> I once added a hashtag to the mailinglist section on the website: http://couchdb.apache.org/#mailing-lists . There, everything is what you need. I recommend to simply send people this link. We could also create a “Mailinglists” Confluence page at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COUCHDB/Community (e.g.) but I fear we would simply write down the same what we have already at http://couchdb.apache.org/#mailing-lists . But yeah if you think it helps - go for it ;-). I am happy to help.
> 
> All the best 
> 
> Andy
> 
>> 
>> - Michelle
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey Joel,
>>> 
>>> I fear that we will not have a chance to add any info to the emails we send over the mailinglists. As Garren said, the INFRA Team of the ASF is managing all the mailinglists and it would be a huge thing to ask all projects weather or not it is ok to add or change the email contents. 
>>> 
>>> On the other hand let me ask a question: why is it too difficult to send an email to unsubscribe-[MAILING_LIST]@project.apache.org? Every newsletter system and mailinglist is working in this way. One point to remember is the fact, that these systems need to handle the subscribers privacy carefully. As most likely the subscriber is owning the mailbox from his email address, it is a good security practice to only accept a subscribe or unsubscribe email from his email address - let’s say mailbox. And yes I know that this is easily hackable. Let’s not discuss this. So I think the practice here is recommended.
>>> 
>>> The cases where people have problems with unsubscribing is really rare compared to the cases where it works (my guess is 1 problem out of 500 success).
>>> 
>>> So my suggestion is simply to leave it like it is.
>>> 
>>> All the best
>>> 
>>> Andy 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andy Wenk
>>> RockIt!
>>> 
>>> Hamburg / Germany
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 20 Jan 2017, at 17:42, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Joel,
>>>> 
>>>> The mailing lists are all managed through the Apache foundation -
>>>> http://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html.
>>>> I'm not sure if we can add a footer. But it would be great if you could
>>>> investigate further and see if we could create a web form, footer and
>>>> anything else that would make it easier for people to to subscribe and
>>>> unsubscribe.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Garren
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hey CouchDB folks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
>>>>> trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
>>>>> little effort to solve it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
>>>>> unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
>>>>> mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
>>>>> `user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
>>>>> clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
>>>>> process for old school developers/community members, it might look
>>>>> confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.
>>>>> 
>>>>> My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
>>>>> that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
>>>>> because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
>>>>> **user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
>>>>> <us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
>>>>> confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
>>>>> like that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
>>>>> the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
>>>>> the process through a web page.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?
>>>>> 
>>>>> *QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Joel Wallis Jucá
>>>>> joelwallis.com
>>>>> 
>>> 
> 

Re: Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>]

> On 20 Jan 2017, at 19:56, Michelle Phung <mi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> hey,
> 
> i think Joels idea is a good one. what i think was meant was instead of current text, send an html email with buttons that would make it clearer. its still being accepted/unaccepted from inside their email mailbox.  i can ping in the infra channel to see if theres any interest or maybe they have something in works? this still might be un-possible just because i think there is some security feature that only allows plain-text for emailing. but reworking all apache subscription emails... what a cool project if we got the green light!

sure … give it a try … 

> in the mean time, maybe we can make a tutorial or web page to walk people thru subscription/unsubscription on the couch site? 

I once added a hashtag to the mailinglist section on the website: http://couchdb.apache.org/#mailing-lists . There, everything is what you need. I recommend to simply send people this link. We could also create a “Mailinglists” Confluence page at https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COUCHDB/Community (e.g.) but I fear we would simply write down the same what we have already at http://couchdb.apache.org/#mailing-lists . But yeah if you think it helps - go for it ;-). I am happy to help.

All the best 

Andy

> 
> - Michelle
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Joel,
>> 
>> I fear that we will not have a chance to add any info to the emails we send over the mailinglists. As Garren said, the INFRA Team of the ASF is managing all the mailinglists and it would be a huge thing to ask all projects weather or not it is ok to add or change the email contents. 
>> 
>> On the other hand let me ask a question: why is it too difficult to send an email to unsubscribe-[MAILING_LIST]@project.apache.org? Every newsletter system and mailinglist is working in this way. One point to remember is the fact, that these systems need to handle the subscribers privacy carefully. As most likely the subscriber is owning the mailbox from his email address, it is a good security practice to only accept a subscribe or unsubscribe email from his email address - let’s say mailbox. And yes I know that this is easily hackable. Let’s not discuss this. So I think the practice here is recommended.
>> 
>> The cases where people have problems with unsubscribing is really rare compared to the cases where it works (my guess is 1 problem out of 500 success).
>> 
>> So my suggestion is simply to leave it like it is.
>> 
>> All the best
>> 
>> Andy 
>> 
>> --
>> Andy Wenk
>> RockIt!
>> 
>> Hamburg / Germany
>> 
>> 
>>> On 20 Jan 2017, at 17:42, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Joel,
>>> 
>>> The mailing lists are all managed through the Apache foundation -
>>> http://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html.
>>> I'm not sure if we can add a footer. But it would be great if you could
>>> investigate further and see if we could create a web form, footer and
>>> anything else that would make it easier for people to to subscribe and
>>> unsubscribe.
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> Garren
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hey CouchDB folks.
>>>> 
>>>> We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
>>>> trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
>>>> little effort to solve it.
>>>> 
>>>> The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
>>>> unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
>>>> mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
>>>> `user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
>>>> clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
>>>> process for old school developers/community members, it might look
>>>> confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.
>>>> 
>>>> My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
>>>> that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
>>>> because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
>>>> **user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
>>>> <us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
>>>> confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
>>>> like that.
>>>> 
>>>> We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
>>>> the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
>>>> the process through a web page.
>>>> 
>>>> Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?
>>>> 
>>>> *QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Joel Wallis Jucá
>>>> joelwallis.com
>>>> 
>> 

Re: Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Michelle Phung <mi...@gmail.com>]

hey,

i think Joels idea is a good one. what i think was meant was instead of current text, send an html email with buttons that would make it clearer. its still being accepted/unaccepted from inside their email mailbox.  i can ping in the infra channel to see if theres any interest or maybe they have something in works? this still might be un-possible just because i think there is some security feature that only allows plain-text for emailing. but reworking all apache subscription emails... what a cool project if we got the green light!

in the mean time, maybe we can make a tutorial or web page to walk people thru subscription/unsubscription on the couch site? 

- Michelle

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:07 PM, Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey Joel,
> 
> I fear that we will not have a chance to add any info to the emails we send over the mailinglists. As Garren said, the INFRA Team of the ASF is managing all the mailinglists and it would be a huge thing to ask all projects weather or not it is ok to add or change the email contents. 
> 
> On the other hand let me ask a question: why is it too difficult to send an email to unsubscribe-[MAILING_LIST]@project.apache.org? Every newsletter system and mailinglist is working in this way. One point to remember is the fact, that these systems need to handle the subscribers privacy carefully. As most likely the subscriber is owning the mailbox from his email address, it is a good security practice to only accept a subscribe or unsubscribe email from his email address - let’s say mailbox. And yes I know that this is easily hackable. Let’s not discuss this. So I think the practice here is recommended.
> 
> The cases where people have problems with unsubscribing is really rare compared to the cases where it works (my guess is 1 problem out of 500 success).
> 
> So my suggestion is simply to leave it like it is.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Andy 
> 
> --
> Andy Wenk
> RockIt!
> 
> Hamburg / Germany
> 
> 
>> On 20 Jan 2017, at 17:42, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Joel,
>> 
>> The mailing lists are all managed through the Apache foundation -
>> http://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html.
>> I'm not sure if we can add a footer. But it would be great if you could
>> investigate further and see if we could create a web form, footer and
>> anything else that would make it easier for people to to subscribe and
>> unsubscribe.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Garren
>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey CouchDB folks.
>>> 
>>> We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
>>> trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
>>> little effort to solve it.
>>> 
>>> The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
>>> unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
>>> mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
>>> `user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
>>> clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
>>> process for old school developers/community members, it might look
>>> confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.
>>> 
>>> My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
>>> that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
>>> because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
>>> **user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
>>> <us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
>>> confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
>>> like that.
>>> 
>>> We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
>>> the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
>>> the process through a web page.
>>> 
>>> Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?
>>> 
>>> *QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Joel Wallis Jucá
>>> joelwallis.com
>>> 
> 

Re: Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Andy Wenk <an...@apache.org>]

Hey Joel,

I fear that we will not have a chance to add any info to the emails we send over the mailinglists. As Garren said, the INFRA Team of the ASF is managing all the mailinglists and it would be a huge thing to ask all projects weather or not it is ok to add or change the email contents. 

On the other hand let me ask a question: why is it too difficult to send an email to unsubscribe-[MAILING_LIST]@project.apache.org? Every newsletter system and mailinglist is working in this way. One point to remember is the fact, that these systems need to handle the subscribers privacy carefully. As most likely the subscriber is owning the mailbox from his email address, it is a good security practice to only accept a subscribe or unsubscribe email from his email address - let’s say mailbox. And yes I know that this is easily hackable. Let’s not discuss this. So I think the practice here is recommended.

The cases where people have problems with unsubscribing is really rare compared to the cases where it works (my guess is 1 problem out of 500 success).

So my suggestion is simply to leave it like it is.

All the best

Andy 

--
Andy Wenk
RockIt!

Hamburg / Germany


> On 20 Jan 2017, at 17:42, Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Joel,
> 
> The mailing lists are all managed through the Apache foundation -
> http://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html.
> I'm not sure if we can add a footer. But it would be great if you could
> investigate further and see if we could create a web form, footer and
> anything else that would make it easier for people to to subscribe and
> unsubscribe.
> 
> Cheers
> Garren
> 
> On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Hey CouchDB folks.
>> 
>> We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
>> trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
>> little effort to solve it.
>> 
>> The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
>> unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
>> mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
>> `user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
>> clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
>> process for old school developers/community members, it might look
>> confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.
>> 
>> My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
>> that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
>> because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
>> **user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
>> <us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
>> confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
>> like that.
>> 
>> We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
>> the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
>> the process through a web page.
>> 
>> Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?
>> 
>> *QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*
>> 
>> --
>> Joel Wallis Jucá
>> joelwallis.com
>> 

Re: Should we provide better/easier ways to unsubscribe?

[Garren Smith <ga...@apache.org>]

Hi Joel,

The mailing lists are all managed through the Apache foundation -
http://apache.org/foundation/mailinglists.html.
I'm not sure if we can add a footer. But it would be great if you could
investigate further and see if we could create a web form, footer and
anything else that would make it easier for people to to subscribe and
unsubscribe.

Cheers
Garren

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 10:20 PM, Joel Wallis Jucá <jo...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hey CouchDB folks.
>
> We have recently seen cases such as this one of Diana Ying, with people
> trying to unsubscribe but having no idea how. I think it's time to put a
> little effort to solve it.
>
> The problem is that it might use a mailing system that handles
> unsubscribing through special email addresses. For this example, the `user`
> mailing list can have an user unsubscribed by receiving a message at
> `user-unsubscribe` email address, which sends a confirmation link that, if
> clicked, completes the unsubscribing process. Although it might be a known
> process for old school developers/community members, it might look
> confusing and/or complex to others, so we must simplify it.
>
> My suggestion is to add a short note as footer to every message sent by
> that mailing software. Something like *"You are receiving this email
> because (...). To unsubscribe, send an email to
> **user-unsubscribe@couchdb.apache.org
> <us...@couchdb.apache.org>** and the system will sent you a
> confirmation link. Click on it and you'll be unsubscribed."*, or something
> like that.
>
> We could even develop an HTML unsubscription form to have people following
> the more common flow of clicking on a unsubscribe button/link and complete
> the process through a web page.
>
> Does it make sense for you? Any thoughts?
>
> *QQ: which software does the CouchDB team use to host the mailing list?*
>
> --
> Joel Wallis Jucá
> joelwallis.com
>