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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com> on 2001/03/28 10:42:55 UTC
[vote] long term logging proposal
In Avalon 4, move to Log4j in favor of the current LogKit,
for the reasons explained in my other e-mail:
- we offer more logging features to people building on top
of Avalon.
- we remove the duplicity of having two logging packages
on Jakarta.
- we get the advantages of a larger developer pool and more
synergy between Jakarta projects.
These reasons are, IMO, enough to warrant the work and the
speed loss.
So, here's my +1
Leo Simons
(hehehe. My first vote is on my own proposal =)
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Re: logging features / cleanup
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 03:49 28/3/01 +0200, Leo Simons wrote:
>logging cleanup
>------
>Avalon/Phoenix needs to move from
>dev-oriented debugging to maintainance-oriented (right?).
big big big yes !!!! ;)
>I'll look into that (since no-one else wants to =).
excellent
>any comments/wishes/pointers here?
I will post what were my thoughts (but I am not sure if they are right ones
yet) in a bit (maybe tomorrow).
>probably not. I'll leave the subject with a final thought:
>one of the biggest problems in software development, or in
>fact the technology sector in general, is lack of standards,
>whether endorsed by a standards body or de-facto.
>Think about power supply plugs, mobile communication
>standards, middle-tier solutions, scripting languages,
>word processor document formats, hardware drivers, etc,
>etc, etc.
true but look back in the early days of electricals and I am willing to bet
there was a lack of standards then aswell. Software development is an
extremely immature field - this will change ... eventually.
>Many separate open source projects would be more productive
>and useful if they worked together more often. The reason
>this does not happen is indeed neatly summarised in Peter's
>e-mail sig...I try to not belong to "almost everyone"
>whenever I can. And find out whether a mind should be
>changed the most productive way possible.
There is that and there is another reason aswell I believe. It is often the
case that cooperation requires high-bandwidth communication (or at least
solid documentation). In many cases the cost of communication is greater
than the benefit you receive from cooperating. (at least when working on
moving targets which we almost all are 8-O).
To get reuse we need to break apart the products and work on them in a more
granular fashion. The commons project just started is an attempt to do this.
>> >- we offer more logging features to people building on top
>> >of Avalon.
>>
>> What features from Log4j would you like to see?
>
>- configurable support for e-mailing of logs.
I actually have a few of these (aswell as ICQ/IRC/jabber notification)
except I am not sole copyright owner so can't contrib them ;( If there is a
real need I could rewrite them... unless someone else wants to do it ;)
>- user manual.
ahh yes - that would be nice *)
>While we're at it, I'd like to have support for sending
>logs to another app. (Reason: I'm looking into building a
>management console for Avalon (perhaps even writing JMX
3 cheers for Leo !!!! ;) You do that and I will promise you Berins first
born ;)
>support, but I don't think I'm up to it), which should
>have a "log" pane). No idea how simple this is at the
>moment, btw.
Actually I already added simple udp/syslog (bsd/unixes distributed logging
protocol) support yesterday ;) It would be easy enough to add support for
other distributed protocols.
BTW: I am actually currently working on a syslog type deamon. Collects
logs/events from multiple different sources - some distributed and then
writes them to a destination (ie rolling logs in cycles or another computer
or two system console ot to email whatever). It is just a toy system at the
moment - but it could work out ;)
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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RE: logging features / cleanup (RE: [vote] long term logging
proposal)
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 09:41 31/3/01 +0200, Leo Simons wrote:
>I wrote:
>> logging cleanup
>> ------
>> Avalon/Phoenix needs to move from
>> dev-oriented debugging to maintainance-oriented (right?).
>> I'll look into that (since no-one else wants to =).
>
>actually, I've recently found jmx to be much more interesting,
>and it's also higher on the todo-list for avalon, AFAIK. So
>this will have to wait =)
Everytime I sit down to do it I find the same thing ;)
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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RE: logging features / cleanup (RE: [vote] long term logging proposal)
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
I wrote:
> logging cleanup
> ------
> Avalon/Phoenix needs to move from
> dev-oriented debugging to maintainance-oriented (right?).
> I'll look into that (since no-one else wants to =).
actually, I've recently found jmx to be much more interesting,
and it's also higher on the todo-list for avalon, AFAIK. So
this will have to wait =)
greetz,
LSD
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logging features / cleanup (RE: [vote] long term logging proposal)
Posted by Leo Simons <ma...@leosimons.com>.
logging cleanup
------
Avalon/Phoenix needs to move from
dev-oriented debugging to maintainance-oriented (right?).
I'll look into that (since no-one else wants to =).
any comments/wishes/pointers here?
> -1 Sorry, I don't think you've made a convincing case for dropping
> LogKit.
(...)
> If the logging JSR comes out and is widely accepted that may be a viable
> platform but I really don't see any need to change yet - maybe you can
> convince me ;)
probably not. I'll leave the subject with a final thought:
one of the biggest problems in software development, or in
fact the technology sector in general, is lack of standards,
whether endorsed by a standards body or de-facto.
Think about power supply plugs, mobile communication
standards, middle-tier solutions, scripting languages,
word processor document formats, hardware drivers, etc,
etc, etc.
IMO the biggest advantage of Open Source community development
is that unneccessary duplication of code/efforts/manpower/money
happens a lot less.
Many separate open source projects would be more productive
and useful if they worked together more often. The reason
this does not happen is indeed neatly summarised in Peter's
e-mail sig...I try to not belong to "almost everyone"
whenever I can. And find out whether a mind should be
changed the most productive way possible.
> >- we offer more logging features to people building on top
> >of Avalon.
>
> What features from Log4j would you like to see?
- configurable support for e-mailing of logs.
- user manual.
- the isLoggingEnabled() functions - this speeded up my sample app
considerably. Figure that's true for logkit as well. (...)
oh. You've added that.
While we're at it, I'd like to have support for sending
logs to another app. (Reason: I'm looking into building a
management console for Avalon (perhaps even writing JMX
support, but I don't think I'm up to it), which should
have a "log" pane). No idea how simple this is at the
moment, btw.
'till sunday, all!
LSD
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Re: [vote] long term logging proposal
Posted by Charles Benett <ch...@benett1.demon.co.uk>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>
> In Avalon 4, move to Log4j in favor of the current LogKit,
> for the reasons explained in my other e-mail:
>
> - we offer more logging features to people building on top
> of Avalon.
apparently not. I believe it has all the features that Avalon users
need, and others could be added if requested.
> - we remove the duplicity of having two logging packages
> on Jakarta.
> - we get the advantages of a larger developer pool and more
> synergy between Jakarta projects.
I don't think these are convincing. There are other duplications within
Jakarta. What matters is that Avalon/ Phoenix has logging that works for
it.
>
> These reasons are, IMO, enough to warrant the work and the
> speed loss.
-1 Sorry, I don't think you've made a convincing case for dropping
LogKit.
Charles
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Re: [vote] long term logging proposal
Posted by Eung-ju Park <co...@isoft.co.kr>.
LogKit is
easy to understand, clean and faster than Log4J.
I think LogKit is batter than Log4J in Avalon at least.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo Simons" <ma...@leosimons.com>
To: "Avalon Development" <av...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2001 5:42 PM
Subject: [vote] long term logging proposal
> In Avalon 4, move to Log4j in favor of the current LogKit,
> for the reasons explained in my other e-mail:
>
> - we offer more logging features to people building on top
> of Avalon.
> - we remove the duplicity of having two logging packages
> on Jakarta.
> - we get the advantages of a larger developer pool and more
> synergy between Jakarta projects.
>
> These reasons are, IMO, enough to warrant the work and the
> speed loss.
>
> So, here's my +1
>
>
> Leo Simons
> (hehehe. My first vote is on my own proposal =)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: avalon-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: avalon-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [vote] long term logging proposal
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 10:42 28/3/01 +0200, Leo Simons wrote:
>- we offer more logging features to people building on top
>of Avalon.
What features from Log4j would you like to see?
>- we remove the duplicity of having two logging packages
>on Jakarta.
theres 5+ templating languages at Apache, 2 regex projects etc.
>- we get the advantages of a larger developer pool and more
>synergy between Jakarta projects.
and more dynamicism. Avalons bad enough at the moment - it is meant to
stabilize at avalon 4.0. If we introduce a logging package that changes 2-3
times a week this is not a service to our users.
>These reasons are, IMO, enough to warrant the work and the
>speed loss.
>
>So, here's my +1
and my veto -1
;)
If the logging JSR comes out and is widely accepted that may be a viable
platform but I really don't see any need to change yet - maybe you can
convince me ;)
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
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