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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by kf...@collab.net on 2004/04/15 19:32:04 UTC
Re: [PATCH] Swedish translation
"Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu> writes:
> Attached is a patch with a partial Swedish translations (about 70%). This
> is work in progress, so I just want to let you know that I am working on
> it. If any Swedish speakers have any suggestions on better terminology,
> please tell me.
Hello, users@ folks. Peter N. Lundblad just posted the above to dev@.
The full message, with patch, is here:
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=dev&msgNo=63613
It contains Swedish translations for Subversion strings. If anyone on
either list has time & skills to review it, that would be great...
(And thanks, Peter, for starting this!)
-Karl
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Re: [PATCH] Swedish translation
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
"Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu> writes:
> Should I repost the whole patch on the list when done?
Yup, and maybe put
Subject: [PATCH] Swedish translation, take 2
or something, so people know it's a new patch.
Thanks!,
-K
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Re: [PATCH] Swedish translation
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
"Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu> writes:
> Should I repost the whole patch on the list when done?
Yup, and maybe put
Subject: [PATCH] Swedish translation, take 2
or something, so people know it's a new patch.
Thanks!,
-K
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Re: [PATCH] Swedish translation
Posted by "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu>.
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu> writes:
> > Attached is a patch with a partial Swedish translations (about 70%). This
> > is work in progress, so I just want to let you know that I am working on
> > it. If any Swedish speakers have any suggestions on better terminology,
> > please tell me.
>
> It contains Swedish translations for Subversion strings. If anyone on
> either list has time & skills to review it, that would be great...
>
There are about three missing newlines in that patch, but fixing them
makes it compile... I'll fix this and add more translations in a few days.
Should I repost the whole patch on the list when done?
Regards,
//Peter
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Re: [PATCH] Swedish translation
Posted by "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu>.
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> "Peter N. Lundblad" <lu...@linux.nu> writes:
> > Attached is a patch with a partial Swedish translations (about 70%). This
> > is work in progress, so I just want to let you know that I am working on
> > it. If any Swedish speakers have any suggestions on better terminology,
> > please tell me.
>
> It contains Swedish translations for Subversion strings. If anyone on
> either list has time & skills to review it, that would be great...
>
There are about three missing newlines in that patch, but fixing them
makes it compile... I'll fix this and add more translations in a few days.
Should I repost the whole patch on the list when done?
Regards,
//Peter
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 03:02:39AM +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> OK, so what should I do now? Translate the text above to sth. like:
> "wci?nij 'a' by przerwa?, 'c' by kontynuowa?, 'e' by edytowa?"
> (press 'a' to abort, 'c' to continue, 'e' to edit)?
I guess whatever you thought made sense with your language.
> No, I do not want to use such a list for some kind of automation. I just
> think it would really be good if for any language subversion and/or
> manual are translated to, someone wrote small list telling things like
>
> 'while translating to Polish we use the following terms:
> repository ==> repozytorium
> update ==> aktualizacja
> commit ==> zatwierdzanie
> revision ==> wersja
> ....'
>
> I do not know the state for other languages, but I'd bet that it can be
> fairly frequent that some term can be translated using two or more
> different terms but doc should select one and stick with it...
Ahh I see, so like a style guide for terms in that language... Makes
sense to me. Write one up and suggest a place to put it in our tree.
Maybe under notes?
--
Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org
"Conscience is the inner voice which warns us somebody may be looking."
- H.L. Mencken
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Bas Mevissen <ml...@basmevissen.nl>.
On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 15:53, kfogel@collab.net wrote:
> Present the Polish first, with the same letters used for the
> corresponding actions, and *then* present the English too, as it is
> presented in Subversion currently. Many users will know some English,
> and this will clarify for them what's going on.
>
> How does that sound?
>
Sounds good.
Bas.
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Re: Translations...
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
Marcin Kasperski <Ma...@softax.com.pl> writes:
> OK, so what should I do now? Translate the text above to sth. like:
> "wciśnij 'a' by przerwać, 'c' by kontynuować, 'e' by edytować"
> (press 'a' to abort, 'c' to continue, 'e' to edit)?
I think a good solution is like that, yeah.
Present the Polish first, with the same letters used for the
corresponding actions, and *then* present the English too, as it is
presented in Subversion currently. Many users will know some English,
and this will clarify for them what's going on.
How does that sound?
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Marcin Kasperski <Ma...@softax.com.pl>.
On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 02:48, Ben Reser wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 01:31:45AM +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> > I just started taking a look at possible Polish translation and I have
> > some questions.
> >
> > a) It is really impossible to translate some of the messages like
> > "a)bort, c)ontinue, e)dit" (there are a few of this type) into Polish
> > while keeping the selected letters, for instance in the mentioned case
> > abort should be translated to 'przerwij' and continue to 'kontynuuj', as
> > one can see there is neither 'a' in the first word, nor 'c' in the
> > second one. How are translations expected to handle that? Is it possible
> > to choose other letters?
>
> Right now no, but we could probably achieve this. It'd require the code
> for the prompting to be changed. It'd also require translators to be
> careful in selecting the words...
OK, so what should I do now? Translate the text above to sth. like:
"wciśnij 'a' by przerwać, 'c' by kontynuować, 'e' by edytować"
(press 'a' to abort, 'c' to continue, 'e' to edit)?
> > c) It seems to me, it would be worthful if each translation defined
> > single word for translating basic terms (file, directory, update,
> > commit, version control, repository, branch, tag, merge, conflict,
> > property, revision, revision property...) - to ensure consistency
> > between different sentences and also between translation of the messages
> > and possible translation of the manual. Maybe someone (book authors?)
> > could compile such a list of the most important terms (part of them
> > suggested above) and someone else (translations coordinator?) define a
> > method of specifying them (maybe just each .po file could start with
> > basic terms translation or maybe one could just build some large text or
> > html table with a column for each language...).
>
> I'm not sure how this would work... Don't you need to use slight
> variations of words depending upon the context. E.G. plurals.
No, I do not want to use such a list for some kind of automation. I just
think it would really be good if for any language subversion and/or
manual are translated to, someone wrote small list telling things like
'while translating to Polish we use the following terms:
repository ==> repozytorium
update ==> aktualizacja
commit ==> zatwierdzanie
revision ==> wersja
....'
I do not know the state for other languages, but I'd bet that it can be
fairly frequent that some term can be translated using two or more
different terms but doc should select one and stick with it...
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@xbc.nu>.
Ben Reser wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 01:31:45AM +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
>
>
>>d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
>>'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
>>behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
>>the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
>>
>>
>
>We really should write a style guideline. I've noticed this
>inconsistency in our documentation myself. I've tried to use node
>because it seemed to make the most sense to me.
>
>
There is no semantic difference between "node" and "object", but "item"
is a different thing. Nodes live in the repository, and they consist of
several node versions; but you get items in the working copy. I think.
In any case, we have to make that distinction.
(We also have to get our theoretical model documented more concisely --
yes, yes, working on that :-)
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>.
On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 01:31:45AM +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> I just started taking a look at possible Polish translation and I have
> some questions.
>
> a) It is really impossible to translate some of the messages like
> "a)bort, c)ontinue, e)dit" (there are a few of this type) into Polish
> while keeping the selected letters, for instance in the mentioned case
> abort should be translated to 'przerwij' and continue to 'kontynuuj', as
> one can see there is neither 'a' in the first word, nor 'c' in the
> second one. How are translations expected to handle that? Is it possible
> to choose other letters?
Right now no, but we could probably achieve this. It'd require the code
for the prompting to be changed. It'd also require translators to be
careful in selecting the words...
> b) Some english sentences are ended with punctuation (dot, question
> mark, ...), while others are not. Similarly some are started with
> capital letter while others are not. Is there any logic behind that?
See our Error message conventions in HACKING. I'd say there are some
cases where people aren't following the conventions. Pleasae point out
the ones you see and we'll fix them.
> c) It seems to me, it would be worthful if each translation defined
> single word for translating basic terms (file, directory, update,
> commit, version control, repository, branch, tag, merge, conflict,
> property, revision, revision property...) - to ensure consistency
> between different sentences and also between translation of the messages
> and possible translation of the manual. Maybe someone (book authors?)
> could compile such a list of the most important terms (part of them
> suggested above) and someone else (translations coordinator?) define a
> method of specifying them (maybe just each .po file could start with
> basic terms translation or maybe one could just build some large text or
> html table with a column for each language...).
I'm not sure how this would work... Don't you need to use slight
variations of words depending upon the context. E.G. plurals.
> d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
> 'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
> behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
> the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
We really should write a style guideline. I've noticed this
inconsistency in our documentation myself. I've tried to use node
because it seemed to make the most sense to me.
> e) As I have no experience with developing .po files, could you suggest
> how should I test them (so far I copied po/es.po to po/pl.po and edited
> partially, how can I compile subversion to use my translation and test
> it?)
I can't, don't have that much experience myself.
--
Ben Reser <be...@reser.org>
http://ben.reser.org
"Conscience is the inner voice which warns us somebody may be looking."
- H.L. Mencken
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org>.
On 2004-04-16 01:31:45 +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> e) As I have no experience with developing .po files, could you suggest
> how should I test them (so far I copied po/es.po to po/pl.po and edited
> partially, how can I compile subversion to use my translation and test
> it?)
You shouldn't copy a po file for some language to another one, as
you may miss translations. gettext has a tool to create an initial
po file (IIRC, msgmerge can be used for that, from a po model file).
Then I use Emacs to edit the po files, as it has a nice mode for
that (like that, it can be seen as a po editor :).
To test your translations, no need to recompile Subversion. Just
regenerate the mo files (Subversion should provide a script or a
makefile rule for that, like other projects[*]) and reinstall it.
I haven't tested with Subversion, though.
[*] I do the French translations for Mutt and ROX. Mutt has makefile
rules (update-po and update-gmo) and ROX has update-po and make-mo
scripts. This is for Unix. I don't know what can be used on Windows
if this is your case.
--
Vincent Lefèvre <vi...@vinc17.org> - Web: <http://www.vinc17.org/>
100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn / RISC OS / ARM, free software, YP17,
Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, etc.
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
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Re: Glossary (was: Translations...)
Posted by "C. Michael Pilato" <cm...@collab.net>.
kfogel@collab.net writes:
> Does that change get back-propagated to the book source?
Heh. Probably only if we take the time to re-type everything they
come up with.
/me grumbles about hard-copy editing...
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Re: Glossary (was: Translations...)
Posted by kf...@collab.net.
"C. Michael Pilato" <cm...@collab.net> writes:
> > On 2004-04-16 01:31:45 +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> > > d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
> > > 'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
> > > behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
> > > the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
> >
> > There's a glossary at the end of the book... but it is empty. :(
>
> O'Reilly fills that in for us.
Does that change get back-propagated to the book source?
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Re: Glossary (was: Translations...)
Posted by "C. Michael Pilato" <cm...@collab.net>.
Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org> writes:
> On 2004-04-16 01:31:45 +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> > d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
> > 'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
> > behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
> > the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
>
> There's a glossary at the end of the book... but it is empty. :(
O'Reilly fills that in for us.
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Glossary (was: Translations...)
Posted by Vincent Lefevre <vi...@vinc17.org>.
On 2004-04-16 01:31:45 +0200, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
> 'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
> behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
> the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
There's a glossary at the end of the book... but it is empty. :(
--
Vincent Lefèvre <vi...@vinc17.org> - Web: <http://www.vinc17.org/>
100% validated (X)HTML - Acorn / RISC OS / ARM, free software, YP17,
Championnat International des Jeux Mathématiques et Logiques, etc.
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / SPACES project at LORIA
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Marcin Kasperski <Ma...@softax.com.pl>.
> My main idea was to leave the short messages untranslated and
> just translate the explanations. That is useful when helping
> people out who use a version of SVN in a different language.
> For example, a message like:
>
> "Subversion kon het gevraagde bestand niet vinden. Controleer
> de settings die u heeft opgegeven."
>
> is not understandable by most readers here. But this one
>
> "
> Subversion could not find the requested file.
>
> Het gevraagde bestand kon niet gevonden worden. Controleer de
> settings die u heeft opgegeven.
> "
>
> Works better. It looks fairly good to me and can be understand
> by both people who don't understand Dutch (but English) and
> people who don't understand English (but Dutch). Main thing is
> that the error message is uniform and can for example be
> entered in Google to find an answer.
There is old and well known method of solving this issue. Just
introduce error identifiers. For instance
[SVN:3471] Subversion kon het gevraagde bestand niet vinden.
Controleer de settings die u heeft opgegeven.
or maybe
[SVN:FILE-NOT-FOUND] Subversion kon het gevraagde bestand niet
vinden. Controleer de settings die u heeft opgegeven.
Then everyone can search for SVN:3471 or SNV:FILE-NOT-FOUND...
Additional sideefect would be to force implementors to classify
the errors, detect duplicates (currently there are a few very
similar error texts which in my opinion could be joined into
one).
Nevertheless, I think in case errors identifiers are not
possible, your idea could be valuable. Then it should be
implemented so not everything is gettext-ed - short error
description is left as-is always and only additional
descriptions must be translated. What do you think, subversion
developers?
> > Even at the old DOS days
> > Microsoft translated famous 'Abort, Retry, Ignore' to
> > 'Przerwij, PonĂłw, Zignoruj'.
>
> Yes and then you had to press 'y' when saying "ja" in MS DOS
> 6.2x NL version :-)))
In Polish it was a bit better...
As a completely not subversion related anecdote, my colleagues
just found that to dynamically change network address on Windows
XP PL one should write sth. like
netsh interface set address name="Połączenie lokalne" static
10.0.0.17 255.255.255.0 10.0.0.1 1
where the text 'Połączenie lokalne' (polish translation of
english 'Local network') should have polish characters encoded
with old DOS 852 encoding, currently not used anywhere and
different from both windows-1250 used natively on Windows and
iso-8859-2 being polish and international standard (used on
*nix, Mac & internet).
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Bas Mevissen <ml...@basmevissen.nl>.
On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 13:25, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> You mean sth like:
>
> Wybierz: a)bort (przerwij), c)ontinue (kontynuuj), e)dit
> (redaguj)
>
Yes.
> ? For me it looks (in Polish) fairly horrible.
>
It's not nice, true. But it is one alternative I see to keep the
commands to be given exactly the same in all languages.
My main idea was to leave the short messages untranslated and just
translate the explanations. That is useful when helping people out who
use a version of SVN in a different language. For example, a message
like:
"Subversion kon het gevraagde bestand niet vinden. Controleer de
settings die u heeft opgegeven."
is not understandable by most readers here. But this one
"
Subversion could not find the requested file.
Het gevraagde bestand kon niet gevonden worden. Controleer de settings
die u heeft opgegeven.
"
Works better. It looks fairly good to me and can be understand by both
people who don't understand Dutch (but English) and people who don't
understand English (but Dutch). Main thing is that the error message is
uniform and can for example be entered in Google to find an answer.
> > Actually, it crosses my mind that having 2 levels of
> > translation could be very handy: one where all English
> > terminology remains untranslated and one where translation is
> > added.
>
> The question is 'what is English terminology' - which words would
> you like to keep and which to translate.
>
I would say that all "computer words" remain untranslated in some
translations. In a lot of countries it is acceptable to have users learn
those words. This will not work at all in countries with a different
"character set".
>
> Returning to our initial sample, the words abort, continue and
> edit have well known and used translations and would look
> strange if embedded in Polish sentence.
OK, in Dutch that is quite common. I already had my doubts if that would
be usable in other languages.
> Even at the old DOS days
> Microsoft translated famous 'Abort, Retry, Ignore' to 'Przerwij,
> Ponów, Zignoruj'.
>
Yes and then you had to press 'y' when saying "ja" in MS DOS 6.2x NL
version :-)))
> BTW: wouldn't such an idea for French translation be forbidden by
> the French law?
Don't know. But French laws are sometimes not understandable for
non-French...
Bas.
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Marcin Kasperski <Ma...@softax.com.pl>.
> > a) It is really impossible to translate some of the messages
> > like "a)bort, c)ontinue, e)dit" (there are a few of this
> > type) into Polish while keeping the selected letters, for
> > instance in the mentioned case abort should be translated to
> > 'przerwij' and continue to 'kontynuuj', as one can see there
> > is neither 'a' in the first word, nor 'c' in the second one.
> > How are translations expected to handle that? Is it possible
> > to choose other letters?
>
> What about using the English words for the terminology that is
> used in subversion and translating the rest?
The words abort, continue and edit does not constitute subversion
'terminology'. They are not names of subversion operations like
- say - commit or update.
> Eventually, you could add the translation behind the term
> used, e.g.:
>
> a)bort (przerwij), c)ontinue (kontynuuj), e)det (redagowac)
You mean sth like:
Wybierz: a)bort (przerwij), c)ontinue (kontynuuj), e)dit
(redaguj)
? For me it looks (in Polish) fairly horrible.
> Actually, it crosses my mind that having 2 levels of
> translation could be very handy: one where all English
> terminology remains untranslated and one where translation is
> added.
The question is 'what is English terminology' - which words would
you like to keep and which to translate.
> In Dutch, the use of English words in Dutch texts (without
> translating them explicitly) is very common.
In Polish it is not - the languages are fairly different. Of
course different english words are absorbed (especially
technical terms) but they are usually slightly modified
(spelling, suffix) to suit the language. For instance English
'interface' found its place in language as 'interfejs',
'computer' as 'komputer' etc - thanks to the completely
different pronounciation such absorbtion almost always mean
changing the word spelling. Moreover, such absorbtions are
performed rarely and only when there is really no corresponding
word in the language.
Returning to our initial sample, the words abort, continue and
edit have well known and used translations and would look
strange if embedded in Polish sentence. Even at the old DOS days
Microsoft translated famous 'Abort, Retry, Ignore' to 'Przerwij,
Ponów, Zignoruj'.
BTW: wouldn't such an idea for French translation be forbidden by
the French law?
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Re: Translations...
Posted by Bas Mevissen <ml...@basmevissen.nl>.
On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 01:31, Marcin Kasperski wrote:
> I just started taking aI wouldn't recommend that because look at possible Polish translation and I have
> some questions.
>
> a) It is really impossible to translate some of the messages like
> "a)bort, c)ontinue, e)dit" (there are a few of this type) into Polish
> while keeping the selected letters, for instance in the mentioned case
> abort should be translated to 'przerwij' and continue to 'kontynuuj', as
> one can see there is neither 'a' in the first word, nor 'c' in the
> second one. How are translations expected to handle that? Is it possible
> to choose other letters?
>
What about using the English words for the terminology that is used in
subversion and translating the rest?
Eventually, you could add the translation behind the term used, e.g.:
a)bort (przerwij), c)ontinue (kontynuuj), e)det (redagowac)
to help people in situations where there is no other context than these
few words.
Actually, it crosses my mind that having 2 levels of translation could
be very handy: one where all English terminology remains untranslated
and one where translation is added.
In Dutch, the use of English words in Dutch texts (without translating
them explicitly) is very common. Personally, I would like to keep the
software completely in English and have Dutch context sensitive help
texts around that translate the messages and explain their meaning. But
that is not acceptable for a lot of people of course.
Regards,
Bas.
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Translations...
Posted by Marcin Kasperski <Ma...@softax.com.pl>.
I just started taking a look at possible Polish translation and I have
some questions.
a) It is really impossible to translate some of the messages like
"a)bort, c)ontinue, e)dit" (there are a few of this type) into Polish
while keeping the selected letters, for instance in the mentioned case
abort should be translated to 'przerwij' and continue to 'kontynuuj', as
one can see there is neither 'a' in the first word, nor 'c' in the
second one. How are translations expected to handle that? Is it possible
to choose other letters?
b) Some english sentences are ended with punctuation (dot, question
mark, ...), while others are not. Similarly some are started with
capital letter while others are not. Is there any logic behind that?
c) It seems to me, it would be worthful if each translation defined
single word for translating basic terms (file, directory, update,
commit, version control, repository, branch, tag, merge, conflict,
property, revision, revision property...) - to ensure consistency
between different sentences and also between translation of the messages
and possible translation of the manual. Maybe someone (book authors?)
could compile such a list of the most important terms (part of them
suggested above) and someone else (translations coordinator?) define a
method of specifying them (maybe just each .po file could start with
basic terms translation or maybe one could just build some large text or
html table with a column for each language...).
d) I do not feel the difference between terms 'node', 'object' and
'item' used frequently in subversion messages. Are there any logic
behind them or can they be treated as more-or-less equivalent without
the necessity to preserve the exact correspondence in translation?
e) As I have no experience with developing .po files, could you suggest
how should I test them (so far I copied po/es.po to po/pl.po and edited
partially, how can I compile subversion to use my translation and test
it?)
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