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Posted to community@apache.org by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> on 2003/07/18 07:08:42 UTC
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Noel, All
(This is cross-posted to community@ and site-dev@james .. sorry)
Well, as far as james website translation (to japanese) is concerned,
I think it gives us at least a *light* upon the consideration of the
internationalization(i18n)/localization(l10n)/multilingualization(m17n).
Please give me more time.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org) -- AIM# tkitahata
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:48:34 -0400
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project))
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
> > (jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely
> > consistent infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing
> > to put the contents on it.
>
> You are asking, I believe, about support for MultiViews. For any given
> page, P, there could be P.<language>, e.g., index.html.en, index.html.jp,
> etc.
>
> Translation would be very much a cross-ASF project that would influence
> other projects, but it wouldn't "own" much. For example, many ASF sites use
> xdocs. Tools like Anakia, Forrest, and Maven are used to generate the final
> output. It seems to me that with respect to web site publishing, you want
> to promote a use standard such that for all P.xml, currently in English,
> there should be P.xml.<language>. Our site publishing tools and scripts
> should then build all of the html pages in the various available languages.
>
> That's the $0.02 version. Details would need to be worked out.
>
> > I imagined how wonderful it would be to set up maling lists
> > of (non-technical)language-specific mailing list in apache.org??
>
> > i18n/l10n ASF TLP can cover mentioned above i imagined.
>
> I think that there seems to be agreement on a mailing list. It is when you
> talk about it as a TLP that you encounter obstacles.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but I'll try to explain to the best of my understanding.
> A TLP has a particular legal role within the ASF. The TLP is provides
> oversight over ASF property, which ties into the legal authority by which
> ASF is able to protect individual contributors in the event of a lawsuit. I
> think that many people think of the TLP as an honor earned, and aren't aware
> of the legal ramifications.
>
> In any event, based upon the preceding, I think you will see that while
> localization should be an ASF-wide effort, it isn't a TLP. For each web
> site (let's consider localizing applications separately), there would have
> to be some tweaking of the site building process, and there would need to be
> parallel sets of pages maintained as the site evolved, but the TLP
> responsible is the site's TLP, e.g., the Jakarta TLP, the James TLP, etc.
> You might have policies, procedures, best practices, etc., but those
> documents could go into an existing repository of shared documents.
>
> Likewise, localizing applications would involve some code change and
> localization resources, and those, too, would belong to that application's
> TLP. *IF* there were some shared code developed for application
> localization, then it might go into Apache Commons if there weren't a better
> place. But that's a bridge to cross when it happens. [And, yes, "Commons
> will be language-agnostic" refers to programming language]
>
> I suggest that external documentation, such as the web sites, represents the
> easiest initial target for translation efforts. It requires no code change
> to the applications, relatively little involvement from developers, and has
> a visible impact.
>
> If there are no objections from the infrastructure team, if you wanted to
> come over to site-dev@james.apache.org, I'm sure that we'd be happy to talk
> to you about seeing if the content from http://james.terra-intl.com/ could
> be integrated into the James site using MultiViews.
>
> A couple of issues that come to mind from what I see of the Jakarta and
> James translations are: (a) keeping translations up-to-date, and (b)
> ensuring that translations say what they are supposed to say.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: kitahata@bb.mbn.or.jp : tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi Danny,
CC-ed : Remy Maucherat
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:19:21 +0100
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> > efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> > Please give me more time.
>
> I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
> would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
> James Japanese translation.
>
> I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
> it.
I think there are some talks about the tomcat 5.0 test env
on apache.org.
# at infrastructure@
I am wondering the "translation effort" sites might be sure to fit
to the tomcat 5.0 test environment, no doubt.
# Hey, Apache-Wide website translation effort offers the *best* test env
# for tomcat!! What do you think? >> Remy
... However, there is 2 problems ... MONEY and SERVER (machine+man)
uhmmmm...
(Still wondering ...... )
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi Danny,
CC-ed : Remy Maucherat
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:19:21 +0100
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> > efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> > Please give me more time.
>
> I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
> would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
> James Japanese translation.
>
> I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
> it.
I think there are some talks about the tomcat 5.0 test env
on apache.org.
# at infrastructure@
I am wondering the "translation effort" sites might be sure to fit
to the tomcat 5.0 test environment, no doubt.
# Hey, Apache-Wide website translation effort offers the *best* test env
# for tomcat!! What do you think? >> Remy
... However, there is 2 problems ... MONEY and SERVER (machine+man)
uhmmmm...
(Still wondering ...... )
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
Tetsuya,
> Sure. I think status quo is important.
<snip>
> There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> Please give me more time.
I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
James Japanese translation.
I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
it.
> http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Interesting, thanks.
d.
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
Tetsuya,
> Sure. I think status quo is important.
<snip>
> There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> Please give me more time.
I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
James Japanese translation.
I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
it.
> http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Interesting, thanks.
d.
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Danny, All,
Sure. I think status quo is important.
Luckily, (and thanks to all the infrastructure team members and board)
I got an account on daedalus, I am now *exploring* under the /x2/www/
directory. If I do not have basic knowledge on daedalus, my
*imaginary-best-idea* might be meaningless...
There might be the best solution for putting the translation
efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
Please give me more time.
cf. James Website Translation into Korean:
http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. If I describe the condition of /x2/www/jakarta.apache.org/
in one word which came to my mind, it might be .. *CreteLabylinth*
, big spectacle :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:27:41 +0100
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure)
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
>
> This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
> translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
> James site.
>
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
> If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
> authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
>
> We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
> we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
> we want him to.
>
> I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
> resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
>
> d.
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Danny, All,
Sure. I think status quo is important.
Luckily, (and thanks to all the infrastructure team members and board)
I got an account on daedalus, I am now *exploring* under the /x2/www/
directory. If I do not have basic knowledge on daedalus, my
*imaginary-best-idea* might be meaningless...
There might be the best solution for putting the translation
efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
Please give me more time.
cf. James Website Translation into Korean:
http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. If I describe the condition of /x2/www/jakarta.apache.org/
in one word which came to my mind, it might be .. *CreteLabylinth*
, big spectacle :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:27:41 +0100
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure)
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
>
> This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
> translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
> James site.
>
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
> If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
> authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
>
> We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
> we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
> we want him to.
>
> I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
> resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
>
> d.
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> writes:
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not
> authoritative. If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this
> would be seen as authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date
> and accurate.
What I do is publish very visibly the version that the translation is
based on, as well as the version of the main document, so that users
can compare, and decide for themselves.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> writes:
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not
> authoritative. If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this
> would be seen as authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date
> and accurate.
What I do is publish very visibly the version that the translation is
based on, as well as the version of the main document, so that users
can compare, and decide for themselves.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
James site.
What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
we want him to.
I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
d.
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
James site.
What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
we want him to.
I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
d.