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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Patrick Galbraith <pa...@patg.net> on 2003/07/21 18:14:18 UTC
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful. I don't know,
so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use XSLT/XML so as to
have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
Not just that, but what about SOAP... Net RPC... I'd like to know where
those fit in as well.
I get so tired of Java types talking about how "perl is just a scripting
language.. it's not an application platform/server like
Dynamo/WebSpere/<insert $$$ java non-OS app here>". I even tried to crack
a particular Orielly java book and was turned off on a statement like
"Perl is good for proto-typing but not a full application server". Yes,
there are a lot of prototypes getting millions of pageviews a day and
generating signicifican revenue.
I'd like to see perl/mod_perl reclaim some of the lost ground.
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Dave
Rolsky wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
>
> > I've been working at Classmates.com for a couple months contracting, and
> > they use Text::Forge.
> >
> > I've been impressed by the performance, and wish it was a big player.
> > Part of the reason it isn't is guys like me should contribute to it and
> > make it a bigger player.
>
> I'd say the big reason it's not a big player is that it doesn't offer
> anything new. It also doesn't seem to be very actively developed and has
> very little documentation.
>
> > I really like the syntax - it looks a lot like JSP.
>
> Yeah, just like Apache::ASP ;)
>
> > All of this said, what is the most commonly used system out there?
>
> The biggest players are Mason and Template Toolkit, judging from "big
> companies" that have used them, as well as job posting. HTML::Template,
> Embperl, and Apache::ASP all seem to have reasonably active user bases as
> well.
>
>
> -dave
>
> /*=======================
> House Absolute Consulting
> www.houseabsolute.com
> =======================*/
>
--
Patrick Galbraith
Senior Software Developer
pgalbraith@classmates.com
patg@patg.net capttofu@slashdot.org
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by Daisuke Maki <da...@wafu.ne.jp>.
> Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
I used it for http://www.nikki-site.com (sorry, Japanese-only site).
This site uses exactly 4 pure-mod_perl handlers, and everything else
eventually goes through AxKit (excuse the site design, as far as
development goes that is a one-man show, and I'm a programmer, not a
designer ;)
I was keen on leveraging XSLT precisely because I knew that I'd be
transforming a data source through mod_perl + in a cron job, AND I
wanted to avoid using Perl on the cronjobs because of the resource
constraints (puny server).
When a user requests data, AxKit uses a stylesheet to transform it to
HTML. Meanwhile the same data source is preprocessed a couple of times
behind the scenes to create derivative data, which is later available
for users to fetch from Apache. The "preprocessing" is done using the
same stylesheet as the one that AxKit, but it is run via multiple calls
to xsltproc instead of going though Perl. So I get the speed of a
C-based app using the same stylesheet as mod_perl. I like that ;)
(note for nit-pickers: I admit I didn't do an extensive comparison of
how it would have faired to use optimized Perl, but the previous
incarnation of www.nikki-site.com used to take about 3 minutes
processing the same data -- xsltproc does it in about 13 seconds)
I also like the way AxKit applies transformation. I conceptually think
of it as a set of filters, and that just fits my mental model. YMMV.
XSP is also very convenient, but I must admit I haven't harnessed its
entire functionality.
On the other hand I must say that debugging problems on AxKit is pretty
harsh on beginners. I went in with the mindset that if it was broken I
was going to make it work, so I didn't have much problem, but that may
or may not work for you.
Overall I find AxKit to be god-sent for my particular application.
Things became much easier for me to add to the site, but if you're not
already familiar with the workings of XML/XSLT, you may need a little
patience.
--d
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by Perrin Harkins <pe...@elem.com>.
On Mon, 2003-07-21 at 12:14, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
> I get so tired of Java types talking about how "perl is just a scripting
> language.. it's not an application platform/server like
> Dynamo/WebSpere/<insert $$$ java non-OS app here>". I even tried to crack
> a particular Orielly java book and was turned off on a statement like
> "Perl is good for proto-typing but not a full application server". Yes,
> there are a lot of prototypes getting millions of pageviews a day and
> generating signicifican revenue.
>
> I'd like to see perl/mod_perl reclaim some of the lost ground.
Yahoo and Amazon both use perl much more than they use Java. eBay is
going Java (from C++), but it's costing them millions and taking years.
Ticket Master and CitySearch are both Perl. It looks to me like there
is very little evidence to support the claim that Java is in any way
better for building high-volume sites.
- Perrin
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?) [OT]
Posted by Ged Haywood <ge...@www2.jubileegroup.co.uk>.
Hi Matt,
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Matt Sergeant wrote:
> The main reason I like AxKit is it prevents me from screwing up [snip]
> I just write straight perl code. I barely notice that I'm using XML.
Can you give us in a couple of sentences your take on the state of XML
in general and AxKit in particular? To me somehow things don't seem
to be going in quite the same direction any more...
73,
Ged.
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Patrick Galbraith wrote:
> Anyone on this list use AxKit? I'm curious how it pans out.
>
> I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to read between
> the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful. I don't know,
> so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use XSLT/XML so as to
> have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
I'm just about to roll out a site using AxKit that has to do about 3
million hits/day out of the box.
The main reason I like AxKit is it prevents me from screwing up and
creating XSS bugs, because everything has to be well formed. I almost
never have to use html or URL encode/decode functions - I just write
straight perl code.
I barely notice that I'm using XML.
It's also worth noting that XSLT is a portable skill, with lots of great
offline tools.
It's also worth saying: never listen to hype. Evaluate solutions based on
your criteria. AxKit matches mine but it doesn't mean it will match yours.
Matt.
Re: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by Douglas Hunter <du...@plusthree.com>.
Jesse Erlbaum wrote:
> Hi Patrick --
>
>
>>I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to
>>read between
>>the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful.
>>I don't know,
>>so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use
>>XSLT/XML so as to
>>have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
>
>
> It's mostly hype in my experience. And not even very useful hype, like
> Java or PHP, which are actually real things which people might want to
> use.
>
I don't quite understand what isn't "real" about XML or XSLT. XML
really is a way to structure your data, XSLT really is a way to
transform that structured data.
> But unless you just happen to have thousands of
> XML documents sitting around on your hard drive, XSLT is a solution in
> search of a problem. Most of my data is in a RDBMS -- not XML.
Or, if you have thousands of XML documents sitting around on your hard
drive, XSLT is an efficient way to translate them into XHTML and deliver
them to a browser.
You do make a good point that XSLT probably isn't for folks who store
the all data they are delivering in a RDBMS. Adding layers onto your
RDBMS to make it return XML, and then transforming that newly generated
XML using XSLT may not be the best solution.
But if folks are storing indexed XML documents on their filesystem (a la
XML::Comma or a similar framework) XSLT can be quite handy.
>
> Too cynical? Maybe. The fact that XSLT is still discussed in serious
> company just bugs me. ;-)
Well, I've always considered myself to be pretty light-hearted.
Sometimes bordering on straight goofy ;-)
>
> TTYL,
>
> -Jesse-
-- Douglas
RE: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by cs...@fx.ro.
Hi Jesse,
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Erlbaum [mailto:jesse@erlbaum.net]
> Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 8:50 PM
> To: 'Patrick Galbraith'
> Cc: modperl@perl.apache.org
> Subject: RE: templating system opinions (axkit?)
>
>
> Hi Patrick --
>
> > I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to
> > read between
> > the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful.
> > I don't know,
> > so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use
> > XSLT/XML so as to
> > have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
>
> It's mostly hype in my experience. And not even very useful hype, like
> Java or PHP, which are actually real things which people might want to
> use.
>
> XSLT seems to be XML geeks' answer to CSS+templating. As if CSS wasn't
> very successful, as if the world needed another templating system, XSLT
> seems to have been invented to take the creative work of designing web
> sites out of the hands of HTML designers, and put it in the hands of
> XPath programmers. You know. Programmers who are really good at both
> creative design and communicating with human beings. Not.
>
> Alright, pretty smarmy. But unless you just happen to have thousands of
> XML documents sitting around on your hard drive, XSLT is a solution in
> search of a problem. Most of my data is in a RDBMS -- not XML. To
> enhance the *need* for XSLT, some databases will now return XML. That's
> an interesting idea. Instead of using a mature language like
> Perl|Java|PHP, let's use something like XSLT to turn my data into a web
> page! It's new, shiny, and will solve the problem of TOO MANY people
> knowing the other aforementioned languages. D'oh!
>
> Too cynical? Maybe. The fact that XSLT is still discussed in serious
> company just bugs me. ;-)
>
>
> > Not just that, but what about SOAP... Net RPC... I'd like to
> > know where
> > those fit in as well.
>
> Fantastic, useful stuff.
>
>
> > I get so tired of Java types talking about how "perl is just
> > a scripting
> > language.. it's not an application platform/server like
> > Dynamo/WebSpere/<insert $$$ java non-OS app here>". I even
> > tried to crack
> > a particular Orielly java book and was turned off on a statement like
> > "Perl is good for proto-typing but not a full application
> > server". Yes,
> > there are a lot of prototypes getting millions of pageviews a day and
> > generating signicifican revenue.
>
> You hit the nail on the head there: "Prototype" in Perl, and then just
> keep using it! A strategy for the NEW "New Economy".
>
>
> TTYL,
>
> -Jesse-
>
>
> --
>
> Jesse Erlbaum
> The Erlbaum Group
> jesse@erlbaum.net
> Phone: 212-684-6161
> Fax: 212-684-6226
It's nice to see that I'm not alone ;-)
Without trying to start a "religious war", I think all the debate can easily
slip to: "Is XML really useful?" I mean besides creating new job positions,
new software, new frameworks, new problems to be solved, some overhead over
processing simple text files, etc.
But I shouldn't go in there...
As for Java, unfortunately the Perl community is in my opinion in a no-win
situation. I've seen lots of people in managerial positions hardly knowing
how to read/write their emails using Outlook, not knowing that Perl even
exists, but giving lessons about the Java usefulness; to quote a recent one:
"You can't survive on the Internet today without Java".
There is a "technical snobbery" that is hard to defeat since snobbery itself
is human nature.
But what would I know? Quit cheap philosophy and back to work...
Lian Sebe, M.Sc.
Freelance Analyst-Programmer
www.programEz.net
"I'm not mad. I've been in bad mood for the last 30 years..."
RE: templating system opinions (axkit?)
Posted by Jesse Erlbaum <je...@erlbaum.net>.
Hi Patrick --
> I like the idea of XSLT/XML, though I find myself trying to
> read between
> the lines of hype vs. something that's actually very useful.
> I don't know,
> so I don't have any opinions. I do know I'd like to use
> XSLT/XML so as to
> have a project to use it for, hence learn it.
It's mostly hype in my experience. And not even very useful hype, like
Java or PHP, which are actually real things which people might want to
use.
XSLT seems to be XML geeks' answer to CSS+templating. As if CSS wasn't
very successful, as if the world needed another templating system, XSLT
seems to have been invented to take the creative work of designing web
sites out of the hands of HTML designers, and put it in the hands of
XPath programmers. You know. Programmers who are really good at both
creative design and communicating with human beings. Not.
Alright, pretty smarmy. But unless you just happen to have thousands of
XML documents sitting around on your hard drive, XSLT is a solution in
search of a problem. Most of my data is in a RDBMS -- not XML. To
enhance the *need* for XSLT, some databases will now return XML. That's
an interesting idea. Instead of using a mature language like
Perl|Java|PHP, let's use something like XSLT to turn my data into a web
page! It's new, shiny, and will solve the problem of TOO MANY people
knowing the other aforementioned languages. D'oh!
Too cynical? Maybe. The fact that XSLT is still discussed in serious
company just bugs me. ;-)
> Not just that, but what about SOAP... Net RPC... I'd like to
> know where
> those fit in as well.
Fantastic, useful stuff.
> I get so tired of Java types talking about how "perl is just
> a scripting
> language.. it's not an application platform/server like
> Dynamo/WebSpere/<insert $$$ java non-OS app here>". I even
> tried to crack
> a particular Orielly java book and was turned off on a statement like
> "Perl is good for proto-typing but not a full application
> server". Yes,
> there are a lot of prototypes getting millions of pageviews a day and
> generating signicifican revenue.
You hit the nail on the head there: "Prototype" in Perl, and then just
keep using it! A strategy for the NEW "New Economy".
TTYL,
-Jesse-
--
Jesse Erlbaum
The Erlbaum Group
jesse@erlbaum.net
Phone: 212-684-6161
Fax: 212-684-6226