[DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>]

Hi all,

we have discussed this already some months ago and I think it is time to
restart the conversation now: does this community feel ready to graduate to
a Top Level Project (TLP) at the ASF?

I think that the incubation phase has been very useful for the FreeMarker
project/community: FreeMarker has now clearly defined and documented
copyrights ownership, the community has learned how to produce and publish
clean and neat releases, all the assets and infrastructure have been
migrated to the ASF, the community has learned how to smoothly interact and
work with the ASF ecosystem (e.g. the ASF Infra, the Incubator general
list).
I feel that there is not much more that FreeMarker can learn from the
incubation and that it is time to think about graduation.

The developer community is still small, but it is independent, diverse and
clearly capable of maintaining the FreeMarker product and supporting the
large user community: attracting new developer will always be one of the
primary goals of this project, but this will not change when the project
will be a TLP out of the Incubator.

What do you think?

Jacopo

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Apache <ra...@dslextreme.com>]

There are other ASF projects that have every intent to get releases out but find that life gets in the way. I really don’t have a problem with the project relying on you. I have a problem if the project is only you.

Ralph

> On Dec 28, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
> 
> Obviously, it would be great if we can graduate, but I'm not sure how.
> Last time the consensus was that the project relies too much on me,
> and so certainly they wouldn't allow FM to graduate at this state.
> That didn't change. Plus, right now, we happen to be inside a now 5
> month long rather silent period (and this will be our 2nd Podling
> Report in row without a release). My plan back then was to start
> working on FM 3 in early November, but life haven't allowed that. But
> my plan hasn't changed, and I hope I can start focusing much more on
> FM sometimes January. Then, however, some time will have to spent on
> releasing 2.3.26 first. For those who don't remember, my standpoint
> was that catching contributors for a template engine is certainly hard
> enough, but FM 2.x.x makes it even harder with all the complex and
> often frustrating legacy. So other than FM 3 meant to be significantly
> better for end-users, it also meant to make FM more attractive for
> potential contributors. (And if FM 3 gets anywhere, I will reach out
> for some long seen contributors, or even seeing if the same engine
> could serve a next gen Velocity and then try to see if the two
> communities could overlap.)
> 
> 
> Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 3:57:50 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> we have discussed this already some months ago and I think it is time to
>> restart the conversation now: does this community feel ready to graduate to
>> a Top Level Project (TLP) at the ASF?
>> 
>> I think that the incubation phase has been very useful for the FreeMarker
>> project/community: FreeMarker has now clearly defined and documented
>> copyrights ownership, the community has learned how to produce and publish
>> clean and neat releases, all the assets and infrastructure have been
>> migrated to the ASF, the community has learned how to smoothly interact and
>> work with the ASF ecosystem (e.g. the ASF Infra, the Incubator general
>> list).
>> I feel that there is not much more that FreeMarker can learn from the
>> incubation and that it is time to think about graduation.
>> 
>> The developer community is still small, but it is independent, diverse and
>> clearly capable of maintaining the FreeMarker product and supporting the
>> large user community: attracting new developer will always be one of the
>> primary goals of this project, but this will not change when the project
>> will be a TLP out of the Incubator.
>> 
>> What do you think?
>> 
>> Jacopo
> 
> -- 
> Thanks,
> Daniel Dekany
> 
> 

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>]

Thursday, December 29, 2016, 8:45:44 AM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>
>> Well, if we want to try this, I guess it's reasonable to wait until
>> 2.3.26 is out at least. Unless private life disasters and such
>> interfere, that should happen in 1.5 months or so. Among others it
>> meant to fix some non-technical issues pointed out during the last two
>> releases. And it's a chance to show some activity once again.
>
>
> Definitely this discussion should not postpone our plans about releases:

I meant the opposite of that, that is, perhaps it's a better timing to
ask about graduation after a more active period and a fresh release
than now. Not a big deal anyway, just a thought.

> in fact, the discussion about graduation and the workflow after it
> (i.e. discussion in the general list, vote in this list, preparation
> of the project charter, vote in the general list, vote of the
> resolution by the ASF Board) would probably take weeks regardless.
> We are free to release in the meantime. We have plenty of time and
> no pressure and I'd like to hear what you and others in this
> community think.
>
> Jacopo

-- 
Thanks,
 Daniel Dekany

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@gmail.com>]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:

> Well, if we want to try this, I guess it's reasonable to wait until
> 2.3.26 is out at least. Unless private life disasters and such
> interfere, that should happen in 1.5 months or so. Among others it
> meant to fix some non-technical issues pointed out during the last two
> releases. And it's a chance to show some activity once again.


Definitely this discussion should not postpone our plans about releases: in
fact, the discussion about graduation and the workflow after it (i.e.
discussion in the general list, vote in this list, preparation of the
project charter, vote in the general list, vote of the resolution by the
ASF Board) would probably take weeks regardless. We are free to release in
the meantime.
We have plenty of time and no pressure and I'd like to hear what you and
others in this community think.

Jacopo

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>]

Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 5:23:54 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu> wrote:
>> Obviously, it would be great if we can graduate, but I'm not sure how.
>> Last time the consensus was that the project relies too much on me,
>> and so certainly they wouldn't allow FM to graduate at this state.
>> That didn't change. Plus, right now, we happen to be inside a now 5
>> month long rather silent period (and this will be our 2nd Podling
>> Report in row without a release). My plan back then was to start
>> working on FM 3 in early November, but life haven't allowed that. But
>> my plan hasn't changed, and I hope I can start focusing much more on
>> FM sometimes January. Then, however, some time will have to spent on
>> releasing 2.3.26 first. For those who don't remember, my standpoint
>> was that catching contributors for a template engine is certainly hard
>> enough, but FM 2.x.x makes it even harder with all the complex and
>> often frustrating legacy. So other than FM 3 meant to be significantly
>> better for end-users, it also meant to make FM more attractive for
>> potential contributors. (And if FM 3 gets anywhere, I will reach out
>> for some long seen contributors, or even seeing if the same engine
>> could serve a next gen Velocity and then try to see if the two
>> communities could overlap.)
>
>
> Thank you for the feedback Daniel.
> I am aware of the situation, plans and challenges and, while the
> last time we discussed we agreed upon waiting to see if we could
> grow this community during the incubation, and it was good to wait,
> I don't think that the lack of growth is a blocker since FreeMarker
> has the minimum number of independent committers to operate and it
> has demonstrated to be able to release when needed.
> In fact, based on the recent thread about the "-incubating" suffix,
> I think that at this point remaining in the Incubator would slow
> down the project rather than boosting it.
>
> Jacopo

Well, if we want to try this, I guess it's reasonable to wait until
2.3.26 is out at least. Unless private life disasters and such
interfere, that should happen in 1.5 months or so. Among others it
meant to fix some non-technical issues pointed out during the last two
releases. And it's a chance to show some activity once again.

-- 
Thanks,
 Daniel Dekany

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Daniel Dekany <dd...@freemail.hu>]

Obviously, it would be great if we can graduate, but I'm not sure how.
Last time the consensus was that the project relies too much on me,
and so certainly they wouldn't allow FM to graduate at this state.
That didn't change. Plus, right now, we happen to be inside a now 5
month long rather silent period (and this will be our 2nd Podling
Report in row without a release). My plan back then was to start
working on FM 3 in early November, but life haven't allowed that. But
my plan hasn't changed, and I hope I can start focusing much more on
FM sometimes January. Then, however, some time will have to spent on
releasing 2.3.26 first. For those who don't remember, my standpoint
was that catching contributors for a template engine is certainly hard
enough, but FM 2.x.x makes it even harder with all the complex and
often frustrating legacy. So other than FM 3 meant to be significantly
better for end-users, it also meant to make FM more attractive for
potential contributors. (And if FM 3 gets anywhere, I will reach out
for some long seen contributors, or even seeing if the same engine
could serve a next gen Velocity and then try to see if the two
communities could overlap.)


Wednesday, December 28, 2016, 3:57:50 PM, Jacopo Cappellato wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> we have discussed this already some months ago and I think it is time to
> restart the conversation now: does this community feel ready to graduate to
> a Top Level Project (TLP) at the ASF?
>
> I think that the incubation phase has been very useful for the FreeMarker
> project/community: FreeMarker has now clearly defined and documented
> copyrights ownership, the community has learned how to produce and publish
> clean and neat releases, all the assets and infrastructure have been
> migrated to the ASF, the community has learned how to smoothly interact and
> work with the ASF ecosystem (e.g. the ASF Infra, the Incubator general
> list).
> I feel that there is not much more that FreeMarker can learn from the
> incubation and that it is time to think about graduation.
>
> The developer community is still small, but it is independent, diverse and
> clearly capable of maintaining the FreeMarker product and supporting the
> large user community: attracting new developer will always be one of the
> primary goals of this project, but this will not change when the project
> will be a TLP out of the Incubator.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Jacopo

-- 
Thanks,
 Daniel Dekany

Re: [DISCUSS] graduation (again!)

[Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>]

Le 28/12/2016 � 15:57, Jacopo Cappellato a �crit :
> Hi all,
>
> we have discussed this already some months ago and I think it is time to
> restart the conversation now: does this community feel ready to graduate to
> a Top Level Project (TLP) at the ASF?
>
> I think that the incubation phase has been very useful for the FreeMarker
> project/community: FreeMarker has now clearly defined and documented
> copyrights ownership, the community has learned how to produce and publish
> clean and neat releases, all the assets and infrastructure have been
> migrated to the ASF, the community has learned how to smoothly interact and
> work with the ASF ecosystem (e.g. the ASF Infra, the Incubator general
> list).
> I feel that there is not much more that FreeMarker can learn from the
> incubation and that it is time to think about graduation.
>
> The developer community is still small, but it is independent, diverse and
> clearly capable of maintaining the FreeMarker product and supporting the
> large user community: attracting new developer will always be one of the
> primary goals of this project, but this will not change when the project
> will be a TLP out of the Incubator.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Jacopo
>
I have not interacted much here, but I lurked and I indeed believe it's time for the next step.

Jacques