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Posted to dev@isis.apache.org by Kevin Meyer - KMZ <ke...@kmz.co.za> on 2010/11/18 21:08:18 UTC
Conference call
Hi Dan,
Thanks for organizing the call.
I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
machine.
Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
associate voices with the emails.
Regards,
Kevin
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:55 PM, James Carman
<ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> I'm just trying to make sure we do things the "Apache Way", since I'm
> supposed to be a "mentor" for this project....
And it's great that podling members are discussing such things here.
The ASF is not here to impose any useless rules on projects, but "If
it didn't happen on the dev list, it didn't happen" is a very
important rule, for very good reasons related to inclusiveness and
sustainability of our projects.
-Bertrand
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
I'm just trying to make sure we do things the "Apache Way", since I'm
supposed to be a "mentor" for this project.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
<si...@it20one.at> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to
> communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And
> meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around
> the globe.
>
> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>
> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>
> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>
> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>
> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or
> impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>
> Speaking as one of the participants
>
> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>
> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>
> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being
> seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Siegfried Goeschl
> Apache ISIS Mentor
>
> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>
>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>> which is...
>>
>>> Just bring a summary of
>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>
>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>> points which continue on list.
>>
>> Craig
>>>
>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>> than these other forums.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -g
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>
>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>
>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>
>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>
>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>
>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>> test. So
>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Oracle
>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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>
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[ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <sg...@gmx.at>.
Hi folks,
open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to
communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And
meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread
around the globe.
So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
+) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
+) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
+) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it
and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
Speaking as one of the participants
+) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
+) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
*) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being
seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
Cheers,
Siegfried Goeschl
Apache ISIS Mentor
Furthermore we have hardly any opportunit
On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>
> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
> which is...
>
>> Just bring a summary of
>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>
> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
> points which continue on list.
>
> Craig
>>
>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>> than these other forums.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>> My $0.02:
>>>
>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>
>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>
>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>> information only to a private list)
>>>
>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>
>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>> members
>>>
>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>> test. So
>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>> Guide)
>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>> ----
>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>> moving"
>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>
>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>> than your best."
>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>
>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> Architect, Oracle
>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Yeliz Eseryel <u....@rug.nl>.
I like your view on this.
I hope things are going well?
I now work in Groningen, the Netherlands.
Yeliz.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com> wrote:
> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
>
> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
> go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick
> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
> more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings
> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense
> of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
> more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and
> keep communities together.
>
> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO,
> we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
> or not to do it at all.
>
> Thanks,
> --Glen
>
> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
>> breathing room on this subject.
>>
>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
>> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>>
>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>>
>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
>> of someone off-time-zone.
>>
>> --benson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>>
>>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>>
>>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>>
>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>>
>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>>
>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>>
>>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>>
>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>>
>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>>
>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>>
>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>>
>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>>> which is...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -g
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
On 11/22/2010 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early... Comparing the
> behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings seems
> disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile drivers drive
> with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you encourage or
> allow those with learner's permits to do?
Fair point, but I think it's also balanced by the fact that the very benefits
real-time can provide (including a greater sense of viscerally feeling who
people are) are the ones that a new community, or one growing beyond a
pre-existing insular group, often most needs.
Just like we advise healthy commits, votes, reports, etc, I think we can do a
good job of framing real-time as a tool that can be useful but shouldn't be
abused.
--Glen
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
Thanks Benson, +1.
Jim, if you look at the isis-dev list, then you will find a mail which predates the general@i.a.o post [1] and where the mentors expressed the the same concerns and made clear what must _not_ happen on such a jit communication but instead find it's way to the mailing list.
So I have the good faith that all the involved people got the idea behind it in the meantime.
txs and LieGrue,
strub
[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/isis-dev@incubator.apache.org/msg00416.html
--- On Mon, 11/22/10, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 3:16 PM
> I am nothing if not chronically
> disingenuous.
>
> My first concern in responding here is a process concern.
> As far as I
> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to
> forbid the use
> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a
> vote, the use
> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the
> mentors to
> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark
> aside, my
> primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've
> registered
> these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in
> the
> discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this
> should be
> enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish
> that they
> would open another thread in which they formally propose to
> impose
> limits on the use of these technologies.
>
> My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's.
> The point of
> the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs
> as soon as
> possible. Real Apache projects use real-time
> communications, within
> the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's
> policies. _Use_ of
> these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit.
> _Misuse_ is. So
> podlings should start using it while they are podlings and
> can be
> supervised.
>
> Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first
> two weeks?'
>
> Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal
> opinion, that
> the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the
> close
> collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to
> make that go
> away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude
> people
> based on time zone or working style, but it might also
> allow new
> people who are not part of the pre-existing founding
> community to get
> into the thick of things more quickly.
>
> As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some
> risk here
> that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that
> will need
> to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me
> out to dry
> here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I
> hear you
> that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have
> community-management
> risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse
> them.'
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> > Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early...
> Comparing the
> > behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings
> seems
> > disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile
> drivers drive
> > with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you
> encourage or
> > allow those with learner's permits to do?
> >
> >
> > On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and
> pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
> >>
> >> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the
> community, I think people often
> >> go too far in downplaying the benefits of
> real-time communication. Quick
> >> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be
> thought through in a much
> >> more effective way than asynchronous emails,
> without the need to constantly
> >> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion.
> Simple misunderstandings
> >> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of
> hours or days. And the sense
> >> of getting to know someone is often subjectively
> deeper in chat, and much
> >> more so on a phone call. These things all help
> move a project forward and
> >> keep communities together.
> >>
> >> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid
> "real-time BAD (well,
> >> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at
> least come across that way on
> >> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other
> side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> >> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated
> into a project, can provide
> >> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't
> shuffled under the rug. IMO,
> >> we should be messaging about how to do it well if
> it's desired, not whether
> >> or not to do it at all.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --Glen
> >>
> >> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> >>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone
> to give them a little
> >>> breathing room on this subject.
> >>>
> >>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC
> channels. These have very
> >>> closely related risks to open communities.
> Many TLPs in good standing
> >>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
> >>>
> >>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this
> thread are pointless.
> >>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job
> of us mentors to help
> >>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC,
> meetups, co-workers, and
> >>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral
> commission, which works
> >>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
> >>>
> >>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as
> a mentor, to _avoid_
> >>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a
> perspective comparable to that
> >>> of someone off-time-zone.
> >>>
> >>> --benson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski
> <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will
> exclude some people; it's just the
> >>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that
> timezone either will not be
> >>>> able to attend or will need to go out of
> their way to attend. As
> >>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise
> large groups of people,
> >>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the
> place" to discuss ISIS.
> >>>>
> >>>> Your generic comment about "individuals
> like to communicate during
> >>>> long & lonely nights in front of the
> keyboard" is also off the mark
> >>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all.
> Again, this sends a signal that
> >>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to
> fall into that group. Not
> >>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried
> Goeschl wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> open source projects are done by
> individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long
> & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting
> the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread
> around the globe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if the ISIS
> developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on
> the dev list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested
> party (apart from troll feeding)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is
> circumvented
> >>>>>
> >>>>> than I don't see any good reason why
> someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to
> organize such a "come together".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to
> organize the meeting
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a
> dozen developers on Skype
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few
> questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted
> by my two daughters on my lap)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
> >>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg
> Stein wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't
> be necessary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong
> for what I think needs to be done,
> >>>>>> which is...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
> >>>>>>> discussion points back to the
> list, along with any recommendations.
> >>>>>>> The list can then sort through
> it and make decisions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript
> but a list of topics and discussion
> >>>>>> points which continue on list.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We have off-list discussions
> all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> >>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We
> just bring the discussion onto the list for
> >>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody
> present. Skype concalls are no different
> >>>>>>> than these other forums.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> -g
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18,
> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> My $0.02:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The business of Apache is
> conducted on email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's fine to have a
> periodic conference call among interested project
> >>>>>>>> participants, as long as
> (my list, not normative):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no project or community
> member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
> >>>>>>>> information only to a
> private list)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no decisions are made
> during the call
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> all topics discussed are
> subsequently posted via email to the project
> >>>>>>>> members
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript
> is interesting but doesn't pass my email
> >>>>>>>> test. So
> >>>>>>>> I'd have to say that
> someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29
> AM, James Carman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know about
> this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> >>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't
> know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> >>>>>>>>> watch a video or
> listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> >>>>>>>>> transcript is probably
> not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> >>>>>>>>> to see what others
> have to say.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010
> at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> >>>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Good idea
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype
> monthly meeting.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19,
> 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> >>>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At least it
> makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain
> this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is
> good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov
> 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
> >>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very
> useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> monthly
> similar would be good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov
> 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First
> off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to
> read the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> transcript
> on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> while I
> was demo'ing).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
> course,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> after
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the call
> finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> At any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the
> details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> "SmokeTest"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> page on
> the wiki [1].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Third,
> per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph,
> though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> recorded
> it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> across
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox
> account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed
> there, contact me directly).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
> We
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> could
> perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On
> 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> Dan,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> captured, a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> app or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> machine.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be
> able to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> associate voices with the emails.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Kevin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
> >>>>>>>>>> Author of
> (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
> >>>>>>>>>> Guide)
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> >>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> >>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>>> "Life is like
> riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> >>>>>>>>>> moving"
> >>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean
> code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> >>>>>>>>>> professional.
> There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> >>>>>>>>>> than your best."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A
> Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay
> foolish."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
> e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>> For additional
> commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> For additional commands,
> e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands,
> e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
Thanks Benson, +1.
Jim, if you look at the isis-dev list, then you will find a mail which predates the general@i.a.o post [1] and where the mentors expressed the the same concerns and made clear what must _not_ happen on such a jit communication but instead find it's way to the mailing list.
So I have the good faith that all the involved people got the idea behind it in the meantime.
txs and LieGrue,
strub
[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/isis-dev@incubator.apache.org/msg00416.html
--- On Mon, 11/22/10, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 3:16 PM
> I am nothing if not chronically
> disingenuous.
>
> My first concern in responding here is a process concern.
> As far as I
> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to
> forbid the use
> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a
> vote, the use
> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the
> mentors to
> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark
> aside, my
> primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've
> registered
> these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in
> the
> discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this
> should be
> enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish
> that they
> would open another thread in which they formally propose to
> impose
> limits on the use of these technologies.
>
> My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's.
> The point of
> the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs
> as soon as
> possible. Real Apache projects use real-time
> communications, within
> the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's
> policies. _Use_ of
> these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit.
> _Misuse_ is. So
> podlings should start using it while they are podlings and
> can be
> supervised.
>
> Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first
> two weeks?'
>
> Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal
> opinion, that
> the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the
> close
> collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to
> make that go
> away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude
> people
> based on time zone or working style, but it might also
> allow new
> people who are not part of the pre-existing founding
> community to get
> into the thick of things more quickly.
>
> As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some
> risk here
> that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that
> will need
> to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me
> out to dry
> here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I
> hear you
> that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have
> community-management
> risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse
> them.'
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> > Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early...
> Comparing the
> > behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings
> seems
> > disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile
> drivers drive
> > with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you
> encourage or
> > allow those with learner's permits to do?
> >
> >
> > On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
> >
> >> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and
> pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
> >>
> >> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the
> community, I think people often
> >> go too far in downplaying the benefits of
> real-time communication. Quick
> >> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be
> thought through in a much
> >> more effective way than asynchronous emails,
> without the need to constantly
> >> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion.
> Simple misunderstandings
> >> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of
> hours or days. And the sense
> >> of getting to know someone is often subjectively
> deeper in chat, and much
> >> more so on a phone call. These things all help
> move a project forward and
> >> keep communities together.
> >>
> >> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid
> "real-time BAD (well,
> >> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at
> least come across that way on
> >> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other
> side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> >> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated
> into a project, can provide
> >> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't
> shuffled under the rug. IMO,
> >> we should be messaging about how to do it well if
> it's desired, not whether
> >> or not to do it at all.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> --Glen
> >>
> >> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> >>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone
> to give them a little
> >>> breathing room on this subject.
> >>>
> >>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC
> channels. These have very
> >>> closely related risks to open communities.
> Many TLPs in good standing
> >>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
> >>>
> >>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this
> thread are pointless.
> >>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job
> of us mentors to help
> >>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC,
> meetups, co-workers, and
> >>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral
> commission, which works
> >>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
> >>>
> >>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as
> a mentor, to _avoid_
> >>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a
> perspective comparable to that
> >>> of someone off-time-zone.
> >>>
> >>> --benson
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski
> <ji...@jagunet.com>
> wrote:
> >>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will
> exclude some people; it's just the
> >>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that
> timezone either will not be
> >>>> able to attend or will need to go out of
> their way to attend. As
> >>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise
> large groups of people,
> >>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the
> place" to discuss ISIS.
> >>>>
> >>>> Your generic comment about "individuals
> like to communicate during
> >>>> long & lonely nights in front of the
> keyboard" is also off the mark
> >>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all.
> Again, this sends a signal that
> >>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to
> fall into that group. Not
> >>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried
> Goeschl wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi folks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> open source projects are done by
> individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long
> & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting
> the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread
> around the globe.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So if the ISIS
> developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on
> the dev list
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested
> party (apart from troll feeding)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is
> circumvented
> >>>>>
> >>>>> than I don't see any good reason why
> someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to
> organize such a "come together".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to
> organize the meeting
> >>>>>
> >>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a
> dozen developers on Skype
> >>>>>
> >>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few
> questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted
> by my two daughters on my lap)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
> >>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg
> Stein wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't
> be necessary.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong
> for what I think needs to be done,
> >>>>>> which is...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
> >>>>>>> discussion points back to the
> list, along with any recommendations.
> >>>>>>> The list can then sort through
> it and make decisions.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript
> but a list of topics and discussion
> >>>>>> points which continue on list.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We have off-list discussions
> all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> >>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We
> just bring the discussion onto the list for
> >>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody
> present. Skype concalls are no different
> >>>>>>> than these other forums.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>> -g
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18,
> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> My $0.02:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The business of Apache is
> conducted on email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's fine to have a
> periodic conference call among interested project
> >>>>>>>> participants, as long as
> (my list, not normative):
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no project or community
> member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
> >>>>>>>> information only to a
> private list)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> no decisions are made
> during the call
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> all topics discussed are
> subsequently posted via email to the project
> >>>>>>>> members
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript
> is interesting but doesn't pass my email
> >>>>>>>> test. So
> >>>>>>>> I'd have to say that
> someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29
> AM, James Carman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't know about
> this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> >>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't
> know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> >>>>>>>>> watch a video or
> listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> >>>>>>>>> transcript is probably
> not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> >>>>>>>>> to see what others
> have to say.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010
> at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> >>>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Good idea
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype
> monthly meeting.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19,
> 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> >>>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> At least it
> makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>> know
> >>>>>>>>>>> how
> >>>>>>>>>>> to explain
> this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is
> good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov
> 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
> >>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very
> useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
> >>>>>>>>>>>> monthly
> similar would be good.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov
> 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> First
> off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to
> read the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> transcript
> on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>>>>> while I
> was demo'ing).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
> course,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> after
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the call
> finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> At any
> >>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the
> details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> "SmokeTest"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> page on
> the wiki [1].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Third,
> per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph,
> though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>>>>>>>>>>> recorded
> it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
> >>>>>>>>>>>> across
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the
> spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
> >>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
> >>>>>>>>>>>> it to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox
> account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
> >>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
> >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed
> there, contact me directly).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> again.
> We
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> could
> perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Cheers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On
> 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> Dan,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
> was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> captured, a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with
> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> app or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> my
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> machine.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be
> able to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> associate voices with the emails.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Kevin
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
> >>>>>>>>>> Author of
> (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
> >>>>>>>>>> Guide)
> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> >>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> >>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> >>>>>>>>>> ----
> >>>>>>>>>> "Life is like
> riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> >>>>>>>>>> moving"
> >>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean
> code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> >>>>>>>>>> professional.
> There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> >>>>>>>>>> than your best."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A
> Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay
> foolish."
> >>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe,
> e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>> For additional
> commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>> For additional commands,
> e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>> For additional commands,
> e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Craig L Russell
> >>>>>> Architect, Oracle
> >>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:00 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...So, it is clear to me that the IPMC and the Foundation do *not* have
> an established consensus the forbids any podling from ever having a
> phone conference...
Absolutely agreed, in the same way that we cannot prevent people from
meeting on the street, at the coffee machine, on IRC, etc.
Out-of-list meetings do happen, it's just a matter of handling them in
a way that's inclusive, and making sure everything important happens
on the dev list.
-Bertrand
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Instead of continuing this thread, I'd invite any of you to start
watching the isis dev list, and report in if you see evidence of a
failure to respect the core values that underly this argument.
Isis has several mentors. I am only one. The mentors, in general, felt
that the project had a strong enough understanding of the core values
of open decision making and communications that they could be trusted
to have phone calls and summarize them on list. So the project has
proceeded on the basis of that guidance.
A variety of IPMC members and, indeed, Foundation members, contributed
to the specific advice that the project received and has continued to
receive on this list.
So, it is clear to me that the IPMC and the Foundation do *not* have
an established consensus the forbids any podling from ever having a
phone conference. My remarks about 'no vote against' should be read in
that context.
If some of you think that the IPMC, or even the whole Foundation,
*should* establish such a consensus, by all means, start a
decision-making thread here or talk to board members.
I am not going to respond further on this thread to the matter of
ISIS's occasional Skype calls. I mean no disrespect, but I think that
everyone's views are represented. Some people are unperturbed, some
are worried, and some think it should never happen.
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
On 11/24/10 3:18 PM, Bernd Fondermann wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:02, Benson Margulies<bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies<bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
>>>>
>>>> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
>>>> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
>>>> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
>>>> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
>>>> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed.
>>> Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct.
>> Bernd,
>>
>> I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.'
> You said: No vote forbidding A => A is not forbidden.
> This reasoning is not correct.
It's not all black *or* grey. In this case, IMO, even if it's not
explicitly forbiden, it's strongly discouraged, and it has been a
constant position, AFAICT.
--
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 15:02, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
>>>
>>> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
>>> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
>>> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
>>> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
>>> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed.
>>
>> Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct.
>
> Bernd,
>
> I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.'
You said: No vote forbidding A => A is not forbidden.
This reasoning is not correct.
> I wrote that it's not
> forbidden, and that it's clear that existing projects are using it.
Which projects? Maybe we need to point the board to them and ask them
to report about how they conduct them.
Personally, not being on the board myself, I'd weigh a few more things
to judge a project's community than just if they do conf calls or not.
But it would be interesting to have a look.
> I respect your advice, but I am not going to dictate this to the podling
> team.
I'm happy to explain my PoV directly to the podling.
Bernd
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:54 AM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
>>
>> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
>> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
>> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
>> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
>> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed.
>
> Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct.
Bernd,
I never wrote that 'everything is allowed.' I wrote that it's not
forbidden, and that it's clear that existing projects are using it. I
respect your advice, but I am not going to dictate this to the podling
team.
--benson
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 16:16, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
>
> My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
> can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
> of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
> of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
> guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed.
Concluding that in the absence of a vote everything is allowed is not correct.
There is a lot of unwritten, conventional law at Apache which has
never been subject to a vote but is nonetheless part of how-it-works.
That's the hard thing about Apache - you have to be part of the
community for a substantial amount of time to know how it really
works. Sadly, there is no such thing as a manual "Apache in 14 days".
My recommendation: Skip the conf calls - it's a waste of time -, and
start with email communication right away. Reason: If there's only one
person not on the call, the whole discussion from the conf call will
happen again asymptotically on the mailing list ("...as I said on the
conf call..."). Also, call transcripts ("... as we decided on the conf
call...") minutes tend to sound binding (and people on the call think
they are) when really they aren't, which can lead to frustration.
Bernd
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I am nothing if not chronically disingenuous.
My first concern in responding here is a process concern. As far as I
can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to forbid the use
of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a vote, the use
of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the mentors to
guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark aside, my
primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've registered
these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in the
discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this should be
enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish that they
would open another thread in which they formally propose to impose
limits on the use of these technologies.
My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's. The point of
the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs as soon as
possible. Real Apache projects use real-time communications, within
the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's policies. _Use_ of
these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit. _Misuse_ is. So
podlings should start using it while they are podlings and can be
supervised.
Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first two weeks?'
Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal opinion, that
the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the close
collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to make that go
away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude people
based on time zone or working style, but it might also allow new
people who are not part of the pre-existing founding community to get
into the thick of things more quickly.
As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some risk here
that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that will need
to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me out to dry
here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I hear you
that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have community-management
risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse them.'
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early... Comparing the
> behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings seems
> disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile drivers drive
> with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you encourage or
> allow those with learner's permits to do?
>
>
> On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
>
>> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
>>
>> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
>> go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick
>> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
>> more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
>> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings
>> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense
>> of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
>> more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and
>> keep communities together.
>>
>> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
>> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
>> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
>> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
>> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO,
>> we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
>> or not to do it at all.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Glen
>>
>> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
>>> breathing room on this subject.
>>>
>>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
>>> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
>>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>>>
>>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
>>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
>>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
>>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
>>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>>>
>>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
>>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
>>> of someone off-time-zone.
>>>
>>> --benson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>>>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>>>
>>>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>>>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>>>
>>>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>>>
>>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>>>
>>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>>>
>>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>>>
>>>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>>>
>>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>>>
>>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>>>
>>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>>>
>>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>>>> which is...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> -g
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early... Comparing the
behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings seems
disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile drivers drive
with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you encourage or
allow those with learner's permits to do?
On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote:
> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
>
> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
> go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick
> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
> more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings
> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense
> of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
> more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and
> keep communities together.
>
> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO,
> we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
> or not to do it at all.
>
> Thanks,
> --Glen
>
> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
>> breathing room on this subject.
>>
>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
>> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
>> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>>
>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>>
>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
>> of someone off-time-zone.
>>
>> --benson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>>
>>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>>
>>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>>
>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>>
>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>>
>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>>
>>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>>
>>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>>
>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>>
>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>>
>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>>
>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>>> which is...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> -g
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>>>>> members
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Glen Daniels <gl...@thoughtcraft.com>.
+1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint.
While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often
go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick
back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much
more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly
"page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings
often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense
of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much
more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and
keep communities together.
I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well,
except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on
email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time,
when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide
some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO,
we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether
or not to do it at all.
Thanks,
--Glen
On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
> breathing room on this subject.
>
> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
> hold in-person meetups from time to time.
>
> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
>
> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
> of someone off-time-zone.
>
> --benson
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>>
>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
>> a good way to build a diverse community.
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>>
>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>
>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>
>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>
>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>
>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>>
>>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>>
>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>>
>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>>
>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>>
>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>>
>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>>> which is...
>>>>
>>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>>
>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>>> points which continue on list.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> -g
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>>
>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>>>> members
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>>>> test. So
>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little
breathing room on this subject.
Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very
closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing
hold in-person meetups from time to time.
This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless.
They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help
the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and
the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works
tirelessly to subvert Apache communities.
If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_
the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that
of someone off-time-zone.
--benson
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
>
> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
> a good way to build a diverse community.
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>>
>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>
>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>
>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>
>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>
>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>>
>> Speaking as one of the participants
>>
>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>>
>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>>
>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Siegfried Goeschl
>> Apache ISIS Mentor
>>
>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>>
>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>>
>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>>> which is...
>>>
>>>> Just bring a summary of
>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>>
>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>>> points which continue on list.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>>> than these other forums.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> -g
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>>
>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>>
>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>>
>>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>>
>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>>> members
>>>>>
>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>>> test. So
>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig
>>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> Architect, Oracle
>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the
nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be
able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As
such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people,
esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS.
Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during
long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark
as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that
if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not
a good way to build a diverse community.
On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around the globe.
>
> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>
> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>
> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>
> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>
> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
>
> Speaking as one of the participants
>
> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
>
> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
>
> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Siegfried Goeschl
> Apache ISIS Mentor
>
> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>>
>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>>
>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
>> which is...
>>
>>> Just bring a summary of
>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>>
>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
>> points which continue on list.
>>
>> Craig
>>>
>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>>> than these other forums.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> -g
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>>> My $0.02:
>>>>
>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>>
>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>>
>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>>> information only to a private list)
>>>>
>>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>>
>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>>> members
>>>>
>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>>> test. So
>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>>> Guide)
>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>>> moving"
>>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>>> than your best."
>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig L Russell
>>>> Architect, Oracle
>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Oracle
>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Hi Emmanuel Lecharny and all...
You are right, this is why this kind of meetings are not related to
decisions making in general, they are just like an online
get-together/meetup, they are optional not mandatory to attend, and no
decisions are taken in them, just brain storming, comments, ideas
which again are recorded in a briefing e-mail so what has been
discussed in it is shared with others who could not attend it.
One good sign of such calls is that we could encourage two new members
to join the project and exchange ideas, they are:
1- Robert Van Poelgeest.
2- Vangjel Stavro.
And imagine such impact on these new members, that they could attend
and share their ideas and experiences live with the rest of the team,
which helped in breaking the ice by introducing ourselves to each
other and also give a brief history about the project and what we are
looking forward to have, etc. It was really a very encouraging
experience for all of us and it proved that it is a faster way to
include new members and get them blended in fast enough to see what
they can contribute to the project.
I really understand all of your concerns and I really appreciate it
that you always remind us with what we should take care of, and I am
sure that mentors of Apache Isis project are Apache's guarding eyes to
make sure that we are not drifting away from Apache rules/processes
:).
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/19/10 11:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
>> <si...@it20one.at> wrote:
>>>
>>> ...if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
>>> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>>
>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>>
>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>>
>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>>
>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it
>>> and/or
>>> impose rules how to organize such a "come together"....
>>
>> I agree that having such calls (or any other off-list
>> discussion/event) with the conditions that you indicate is fine - I'd
>> just add that anything important must be relayed to the dev list. I'm
>> sure people who cannot attend the call will appreciate a short summary
>> sent on the list.
>
> I'll just warn you that such skype meetings every month simply don't scale
> as soon as you have people in different TZ, and when most of the people are
> participating on their free time.
>
> Also it can be very frustrating for someone in Australia to have to wake up
> at 7am in order to follow a meeting occurring at 5 pm in the USA and at 1 am
> in europ...
>
> I'm just trying to tell you what I have learned from a previous
> experience... It might not fail for you, but at least, you know what are the
> dangers you'll face :)
>
> My 2cts...
>
> --
> Regards,
> Cordialement,
> Emmanuel Lécharny
> www.iktek.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Emmanuel Lecharny <el...@gmail.com>.
On 11/19/10 11:52 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
> <si...@it20one.at> wrote:
>> ...if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
>> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>>
>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>>
>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>>
>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>>
>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or
>> impose rules how to organize such a "come together"....
> I agree that having such calls (or any other off-list
> discussion/event) with the conditions that you indicate is fine - I'd
> just add that anything important must be relayed to the dev list. I'm
> sure people who cannot attend the call will appreciate a short summary
> sent on the list.
I'll just warn you that such skype meetings every month simply don't
scale as soon as you have people in different TZ, and when most of the
people are participating on their free time.
Also it can be very frustrating for someone in Australia to have to wake
up at 7am in order to follow a meeting occurring at 5 pm in the USA and
at 1 am in europ...
I'm just trying to tell you what I have learned from a previous
experience... It might not fail for you, but at least, you know what are
the dangers you'll face :)
My 2cts...
--
Regards,
Cordialement,
Emmanuel Lécharny
www.iktek.com
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Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
<si...@it20one.at> wrote:
> ...if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
>
> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
>
> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
>
> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
>
> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it and/or
> impose rules how to organize such a "come together"....
I agree that having such calls (or any other off-list
discussion/event) with the conditions that you indicate is fine - I'd
just add that anything important must be relayed to the dev list. I'm
sure people who cannot attend the call will appreciate a short summary
sent on the list.
-Bertrand
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[ISIS] Re: Conference call
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.at>.
Hi folks,
open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to
communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And
meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread
around the globe.
So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular
Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming
+) that the meeting is announced on the dev list
+) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding)
+) that no official statement/vote is circumvented
than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it
and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together".
Speaking as one of the participants
+) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting
+) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype
*) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being
seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap)
Cheers,
Siegfried Goeschl
Apache ISIS Mentor
On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote:
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
>
>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
>
> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
> which is...
>
>> Just bring a summary of
>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
>
> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
> points which continue on list.
>
> Craig
>>
>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
>> than these other forums.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -g
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell
>> <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
>>> My $0.02:
>>>
>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>>
>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>>
>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>>> information only to a private list)
>>>
>>> no decisions are made during the call
>>>
>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>>> members
>>>
>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>>> test. So
>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Good idea
>>>>>
>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>>>>> to do
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>>>>> At any
>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>>> Guide)
>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>>> ----
>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>>> moving"
>>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>>
>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>>> than your best."
>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>>
>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> Craig L Russell
>>> Architect, Oracle
>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: Conference call
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
which is...
> Just bring a summary of
> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
points which continue on list.
Craig
>
> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
> than these other forums.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell <craig.russell@oracle.com
> > wrote:
>> My $0.02:
>>
>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>
>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>
>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>> information only to a private list)
>>
>> no decisions are made during the call
>>
>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>> members
>>
>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>> test. So
>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into
>> email.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general
>>> list
>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good idea
>>>>
>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I
>>>>> don't know
>>>>> how
>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people
>>>>> involved :).
>>>>>
>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for
>>>>>> organising it.
>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to
>>>>>> read the
>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the
>>>>>> oppo to do
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
>>>>>>> course,
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2
>>>>>> minutes. At any
>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about
>>>>>> 92Mb,
>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the
>>>>>> voices
>>>>>> across
>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>
>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be
>>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Thanks
>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>> Guide)
>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>> ----
>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>> moving"
>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>
>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>> than your best."
>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>
>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Oracle
>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Conference call
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary.
I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done,
which is...
> Just bring a summary of
> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
> The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion
points which continue on list.
Craig
>
> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
> than these other forums.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell <craig.russell@oracle.com
> > wrote:
>> My $0.02:
>>
>> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>>
>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>>
>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
>> information only to a private list)
>>
>> no decisions are made during the call
>>
>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
>> members
>>
>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
>> test. So
>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into
>> email.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general
>>> list
>>> to see what others have to say.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Good idea
>>>>
>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I
>>>>> don't know
>>>>> how
>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people
>>>>> involved :).
>>>>>
>>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for
>>>>>> organising it.
>>>>>> Yes
>>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to
>>>>>> read the
>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the
>>>>>> oppo to do
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
>>>>>>> course,
>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2
>>>>>> minutes. At any
>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call
>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>
>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about
>>>>>> 92Mb,
>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the
>>>>>> voices
>>>>>> across
>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>>>> uploaded
>>>>>> it to
>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> aren't
>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>>>> again. We
>>>>>>
>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>>>> app or
>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be
>>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Alexander
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Thanks
>>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>>> Guide)
>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>>> ----
>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>>> moving"
>>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>>
>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>>> than your best."
>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>>
>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Oracle
>> http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So Skype calls are fine (and I like Craig's list of criteria for
> them), but as far as the ASF is concerned they don't count - anything
> important has to happen on list. Audio transcripts are useless IMO.
>
Right, the key criteria (IMHO) is the "no decisions are made"
criteria. We don't want/need "factions" of people getting together
off-list which will guide the project. The user community needs to
have the opportunity to be involved in the discussions. The reason I
objected was that the suggestion was made that we set up a
regularly-scheduled skype call for this stuff. Not a good idea.
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Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So Skype calls are fine (and I like Craig's list of criteria for
> them), but as far as the ASF is concerned they don't count - anything
> important has to happen on list. Audio transcripts are useless IMO.
>
Right, the key criteria (IMHO) is the "no decisions are made"
criteria. We don't want/need "factions" of people getting together
off-list which will guide the project. The user community needs to
have the opportunity to be involved in the discussions. The reason I
objected was that the suggestion was made that we set up a
regularly-scheduled skype call for this stuff. Not a good idea.
Re: Conference call
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
> than these other forums....
Agreed, the basic rule here is "if it didn't happen on the dev list it
didn't happen".
So Skype calls are fine (and I like Craig's list of criteria for
them), but as far as the ASF is concerned they don't count - anything
important has to happen on list. Audio transcripts are useless IMO.
-Bertrand
Re: Conference call
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
> than these other forums....
Agreed, the basic rule here is "if it didn't happen on the dev list it
didn't happen".
So Skype calls are fine (and I like Craig's list of criteria for
them), but as far as the ASF is concerned they don't count - anything
important has to happen on list. Audio transcripts are useless IMO.
-Bertrand
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Re: Conference call
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
A full transcription shouldn't be necessary. Just bring a summary of
discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
than these other forums.
Cheers,
-g
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
> My $0.02:
>
> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>
> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>
> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
> information only to a private list)
>
> no decisions are made during the call
>
> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
> members
>
> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email test. So
> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>
> Craig
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>
>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>> to see what others have to say.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good idea
>>>
>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know
>>>> how
>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>
>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>> Yes
>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>
>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do
>>>>> that
>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>> after
>>>>>
>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>
>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>> across
>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded
>>>>> it to
>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>> aren't
>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
>>>>>
>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Alexander
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks
>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>> Guide)
>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>> ----
>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>> moving"
>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>> than your best."
>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>
>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
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Re: Conference call
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
A full transcription shouldn't be necessary. Just bring a summary of
discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations.
The list can then sort through it and make decisions.
We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We
don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for
wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different
than these other forums.
Cheers,
-g
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com> wrote:
> My $0.02:
>
> The business of Apache is conducted on email.
>
> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
> participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
>
> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
> information only to a private list)
>
> no decisions are made during the call
>
> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
> members
>
> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email test. So
> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email.
>
> Craig
>
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
>
>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>> to see what others have to say.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Good idea
>>>
>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know
>>>> how
>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>>
>>>> Monthly is good.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>>>>> Yes
>>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>>>
>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do
>>>>> that
>>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>>>>>> after
>>>>>
>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>>>
>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>>>>> across
>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded
>>>>> it to
>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>>>>> aren't
>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
>>>>>
>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Alexander
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Thanks
>>> - Mohammad Nour
>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>>> Guide)
>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>>> ----
>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>>> moving"
>>> - Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>>> than your best."
>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>>
>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>>> - Steve Jobs
>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Oracle
> http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Conference call
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
My $0.02:
The business of Apache is conducted on email.
It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
information only to a private list)
no decisions are made during the call
all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
members
Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
test. So I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio
into email.
Craig
On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> to see what others have to say.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good idea
>>
>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>> know how
>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>
>>> Monthly is good.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising
>>>> it. Yes
>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read
>>>> the
>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>> to do that
>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
>>>>> course, after
>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>> At any
>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>
>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about
>>>> 92Mb,
>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the
>>>> voices across
>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>> uploaded it to
>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If
>>>> you aren't
>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>> again. We
>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely
>>>> optional. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>> app or my
>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Alexander
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> - Mohammad Nour
>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0
>> User Guide)
>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>> ----
>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>> moving"
>> - Albert Einstein
>>
>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>> than your best."
>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>
>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>> - Steve Jobs
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
I'm just trying to make sure that we remain "open". The ASF doesn't
like meetings and decisions going on in "back rooms" somewhere. We
need to maintain an open forum for our projects. I agree that it's
nice to be able to get together to talk some things through and it's a
nice way to build a community, but I know there have been times when
these off-line dicussions/meetings were frowned upon elsewhere within
the ASF in the past. Just trying to avoid that.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:46 PM, dan haywood
<da...@haywood-associates.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi James,
> I don't think traceability is too much of a concern; a skype call isn't
> likely to be a very good forum by which really important decisions can be
> discussed. In fact, the skype call is rather a good mechanism by which to
> remind people of their responsibilities within the community, and that the
> right place for such decisions is on isis-dev (which was done last night).
>
> Judging by the reactions, it seems that people enjoyed the call, and it's
> helped bind the community together. And after all, growing the community is
> what incubation is all about.
>
> You're right that we do need to ensure that there aren't concerns about lack
> of perceived traceability. I do have a to-do action to write up some of the
> main points discussed on the talk and post to isis-dev. Let me do that this
> weekend, at any rate. I'm hoping that we take the view that will suffice.
>
> Cheers
> Dan
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> On 19 November 2010 17:29, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
>> to see what others have to say.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
>> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Good idea
>> >
>> > +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>> > <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know
>> how
>> >> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>> >>
>> >> Monthly is good.
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk
>> >wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
>> Yes
>> >>> monthly similar would be good.
>> >>>
>> >>> Mike
>> >>>
>> >>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>> >>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>> >>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do
>> that
>> >>> while I was demo'ing).
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
>> after
>> >>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>> >>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>> "SmokeTest"
>> >>> page on the wiki [1].
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>> >>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>> >>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
>> across
>> >>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded
>> it to
>> >>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
>> aren't
>> >>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again.
>> We
>> >>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
>> Thoughts?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Cheers
>> >>> > Dan
>> >>> >
>> >>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>> >>> >
>> >>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>> >>> >> Hi Dan,
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>> captured, a
>> >>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or
>> my
>> >>> >> machine.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>> >>> >> associate voices with the emails.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> Regards,
>> >>> >> Kevin
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Alexander
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thanks
>> > - Mohammad Nour
>> > Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
>> Guide)
>> > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>> > - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>> > - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>> > ----
>> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>> moving"
>> > - Albert Einstein
>> >
>> > "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>> > professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>> > than your best."
>> > - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>> >
>> > "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>> > - Steve Jobs
>> >
>>
>
Re: Conference call
Posted by dan haywood <da...@haywood-associates.co.uk>.
Hi James,
I don't think traceability is too much of a concern; a skype call isn't
likely to be a very good forum by which really important decisions can be
discussed. In fact, the skype call is rather a good mechanism by which to
remind people of their responsibilities within the community, and that the
right place for such decisions is on isis-dev (which was done last night).
Judging by the reactions, it seems that people enjoyed the call, and it's
helped bind the community together. And after all, growing the community is
what incubation is all about.
You're right that we do need to ensure that there aren't concerns about lack
of perceived traceability. I do have a to-do action to write up some of the
main points discussed on the talk and post to isis-dev. Let me do that this
weekend, at any rate. I'm hoping that we take the view that will suffice.
Cheers
Dan
~~~~~~~~~~~~
On 19 November 2010 17:29, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> to see what others have to say.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Good idea
> >
> > +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> > <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know
> how
> >> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
> >>
> >> Monthly is good.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it.
> Yes
> >>> monthly similar would be good.
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
> >>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
> >>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do
> that
> >>> while I was demo'ing).
> >>> >
> >>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course,
> after
> >>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
> >>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
> "SmokeTest"
> >>> page on the wiki [1].
> >>> >
> >>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
> >>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
> across
> >>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded
> it to
> >>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you
> aren't
> >>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
> >>> >
> >>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again.
> We
> >>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional.
> Thoughts?
> >>> >
> >>> > Cheers
> >>> > Dan
> >>> >
> >>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>> >
> >>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >
> >>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> >>> >> Hi Dan,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
> captured, a
> >>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or
> my
> >>> >> machine.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
> >>> >> associate voices with the emails.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Kevin
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Alexander
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > - Mohammad Nour
> > Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User
> Guide)
> > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> > - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> > - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> > ----
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
> moving"
> > - Albert Einstein
> >
> > "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> > professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> > than your best."
> > - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
> >
> > "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> > - Steve Jobs
> >
>
Re: Conference call
Posted by Craig L Russell <cr...@oracle.com>.
My $0.02:
The business of Apache is conducted on email.
It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project
participants, as long as (my list, not normative):
no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call
information only to a private list)
no decisions are made during the call
all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project
members
Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email
test. So I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio
into email.
Craig
On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote:
> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
> to see what others have to say.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good idea
>>
>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
>> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't
>>> know how
>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>>
>>> Monthly is good.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mikeb@mycosystems.co.uk
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising
>>>> it. Yes
>>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read
>>>> the
>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo
>>>> to do that
>>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>>>>
>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of
>>>>> course, after
>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes.
>>>> At any
>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
>>>> "SmokeTest"
>>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>>>>
>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about
>>>> 92Mb,
>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the
>>>> voices across
>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
>>>> uploaded it to
>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If
>>>> you aren't
>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>>>>
>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and
>>>>> again. We
>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely
>>>> optional. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Dan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes
>>>>>> captured, a
>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the
>>>>>> app or my
>>>>>> machine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>>>>> associate voices with the emails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Kevin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>> Alexander
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks
>> - Mohammad Nour
>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0
>> User Guide)
>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
>> ----
>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep
>> moving"
>> - Albert Einstein
>>
>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
>> than your best."
>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>>
>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
>> - Steve Jobs
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
Craig L Russell
Architect, Oracle
http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@oracle.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
Re: Conference call
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
Hi James!
Thanks for your comments! I share the same caveat as stated on the list already. All decision making must be done on the list. We only used skype (horrible tool from the technical aspect btw) to introduce ourselfs and dan gave us a introduction about the platform corner stones and features. Ofc we could have done this by reading their book, but I think it was just quicker this way ;)
To make this clear once again: skype will _not_ be our standard communication platform but only used rarely for amicable chats.
LieGrue,
strub
--- On Fri, 11/19/10, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> From: James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>
> Subject: Re: Conference call
> To: isis-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc: general@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 5:29 PM
> I don't know about this.
> Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff.
> Requiring folks to
> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than
> reading a
> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying
> the general list
> to see what others have to say.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Good idea
> >
> > +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander
> Krasnukhin
> > <th...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going
> somewhere. I don't know how
> >> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE
> people involved :).
> >>
> >> Monthly is good.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable,
> thanks for organising it. Yes
> >>> monthly similar would be good.
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > First off, thanks to all for attending,
> and I really enjoyed the
> >>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was
> nice, actually, to read the
> >>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I
> didn't get the oppo to do that
> >>> while I was demo'ing).
> >>> >
> >>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the
> demo working. Of course, after
> >>> the call finished I figured out the problem in
> about 2 minutes. At any
> >>> rate, the details on running the demo for
> yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
> >>> page on the wiki [1].
> >>> >
> >>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also
> recorded the call using
> >>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded
> ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is
> distribute the voices across
> >>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice.
> Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
> >>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on
> isis-private. (If you aren't
> >>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
> >>> >
> >>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call
> like that now and again. We
> >>> could perhaps set one up every month,
> attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
> >>> >
> >>> > Cheers
> >>> > Dan
> >>> >
> >>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>> >
> >>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >
> >>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ
> wrote:
> >>> >> Hi Dan,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I was not able to record the entire
> call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
> >>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if
> it is an issue with the app or my
> >>> >> machine.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who
> participated, it was good to be able to
> >>> >> associate voices with the emails.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Kevin
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Alexander
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > - Mohammad Nour
> > Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community
> Edition 2.0 User Guide)
> > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> > - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> > - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> > ----
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance
> you must keep moving"
> > - Albert Einstein
> >
> > "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to
> call yourself a
> > professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing
> anything less
> > than your best."
> > - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software
> Craftsmanship
> >
> > "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> > - Steve Jobs
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Conference call
Posted by Mark Struberg <st...@yahoo.de>.
Hi James!
Thanks for your comments! I share the same caveat as stated on the list already. All decision making must be done on the list. We only used skype (horrible tool from the technical aspect btw) to introduce ourselfs and dan gave us a introduction about the platform corner stones and features. Ofc we could have done this by reading their book, but I think it was just quicker this way ;)
To make this clear once again: skype will _not_ be our standard communication platform but only used rarely for amicable chats.
LieGrue,
strub
--- On Fri, 11/19/10, James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com> wrote:
> From: James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>
> Subject: Re: Conference call
> To: isis-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc: general@incubator.apache.org
> Date: Friday, November 19, 2010, 5:29 PM
> I don't know about this.
> Whatever we do has to be trackable and
> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff.
> Requiring folks to
> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than
> reading a
> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying
> the general list
> to see what others have to say.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
> <no...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Good idea
> >
> > +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander
> Krasnukhin
> > <th...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going
> somewhere. I don't know how
> >> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE
> people involved :).
> >>
> >> Monthly is good.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton
> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable,
> thanks for organising it. Yes
> >>> monthly similar would be good.
> >>>
> >>> Mike
> >>>
> >>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > First off, thanks to all for attending,
> and I really enjoyed the
> >>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was
> nice, actually, to read the
> >>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I
> didn't get the oppo to do that
> >>> while I was demo'ing).
> >>> >
> >>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the
> demo working. Of course, after
> >>> the call finished I figured out the problem in
> about 2 minutes. At any
> >>> rate, the details on running the demo for
> yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
> >>> page on the wiki [1].
> >>> >
> >>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also
> recorded the call using
> >>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded
> ok. It's about 92Mb,
> >>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is
> distribute the voices across
> >>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice.
> Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
> >>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on
> isis-private. (If you aren't
> >>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
> >>> >
> >>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call
> like that now and again. We
> >>> could perhaps set one up every month,
> attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
> >>> >
> >>> > Cheers
> >>> > Dan
> >>> >
> >>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >>> >
> >>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> >
> >>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ
> wrote:
> >>> >> Hi Dan,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I was not able to record the entire
> call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
> >>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if
> it is an issue with the app or my
> >>> >> machine.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who
> participated, it was good to be able to
> >>> >> associate voices with the emails.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Kevin
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Regards,
> >> Alexander
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks
> > - Mohammad Nour
> > Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community
> Edition 2.0 User Guide)
> > http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> > - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> > - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> > ----
> > "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance
> you must keep moving"
> > - Albert Einstein
> >
> > "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to
> call yourself a
> > professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing
> anything less
> > than your best."
> > - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software
> Craftsmanship
> >
> > "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> > - Steve Jobs
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
"open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
to see what others have to say.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good idea
>
> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know how
>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>
>> Monthly is good.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. Yes
>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do that
>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>> >
>>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after
>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>> >
>>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices across
>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you aren't
>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>> >
>>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>> >
>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >
>>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>> >> Hi Dan,
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>> >>
>>> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
>>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
>>> >> machine.
>>> >>
>>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>> >> associate voices with the emails.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >> Kevin
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Alexander
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> than your best."
> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>
> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> - Steve Jobs
>
Re: Conference call
Posted by James Carman <ja...@carmanconsulting.com>.
I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and
"open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to
watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a
transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list
to see what others have to say.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din
<no...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good idea
>
> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
> <th...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know how
>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>>
>> Monthly is good.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. Yes
>>> monthly similar would be good.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do that
>>> while I was demo'ing).
>>> >
>>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after
>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
>>> page on the wiki [1].
>>> >
>>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices across
>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you aren't
>>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>>> >
>>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>>> >
>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> >
>>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>>> >> Hi Dan,
>>> >>
>>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>> >>
>>> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
>>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
>>> >> machine.
>>> >>
>>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>>> >> associate voices with the emails.
>>> >>
>>> >> Regards,
>>> >> Kevin
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>> Alexander
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks
> - Mohammad Nour
> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
> ----
> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
> - Albert Einstein
>
> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
> than your best."
> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
>
> "Stay hungry, stay foolish."
> - Steve Jobs
>
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Re: Conference call
Posted by Mohammad Nour El-Din <no...@gmail.com>.
Good idea
+1 on the Skype monthly meeting.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin
<th...@gmail.com> wrote:
> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know how
> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
>
> Monthly is good.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
>
>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. Yes
>> monthly similar would be good.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do that
>> while I was demo'ing).
>> >
>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after
>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
>> page on the wiki [1].
>> >
>> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices across
>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you aren't
>> subscribed there, contact me directly).
>> >
>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
>> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>> >> Hi Dan,
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
>> >>
>> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
>> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
>> >> machine.
>> >>
>> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>> >> associate voices with the emails.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Kevin
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Alexander
>
--
Thanks
- Mohammad Nour
Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User Guide)
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html
- LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour
- Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com
----
"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving"
- Albert Einstein
"Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a
professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less
than your best."
- Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship
"Stay hungry, stay foolish."
- Steve Jobs
Re: Conference call
Posted by Alexander Krasnukhin <th...@gmail.com>.
At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't know how
to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :).
Monthly is good.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote:
> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. Yes
> monthly similar would be good.
>
> Mike
>
> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do that
> while I was demo'ing).
> >
> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after
> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the "SmokeTest"
> page on the wiki [1].
> >
> > Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices across
> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded it to
> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you aren't
> subscribed there, contact me directly).
> >
> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Dan
> >
> > [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> >> Hi Dan,
> >>
> >> Thanks for organizing the call.
> >>
> >> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
> >> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
> >> machine.
> >>
> >> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
> >> associate voices with the emails.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Kevin
> >>
> >>
>
--
Regards,
Alexander
Re: Conference call
Posted by Mike Burton <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>.
Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. Yes monthly similar would be good.
Mike
On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do that while I was demo'ing).
>
> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the "SmokeTest" page on the wiki [1].
>
> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb, recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices across the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just uploaded it to my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you aren't subscribed there, contact me directly).
>
> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
>
> Cheers
> Dan
>
> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
>> Hi Dan,
>>
>> Thanks for organizing the call.
>>
>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
>> machine.
>>
>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
>> associate voices with the emails.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kevin
>>
>>
Re: Conference call
Posted by Dan Haywood <dk...@gmail.com>.
First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the
opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the
transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo to do
that while I was demo'ing).
Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, after
the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. At any
rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the
"SmokeTest" page on the wiki [1].
Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using
CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb,
recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices
across the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just
uploaded it to my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on
isis-private. (If you aren't subscribed there, contact me directly).
Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and again. We
could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. Thoughts?
Cheers
Dan
[1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Thanks for organizing the call.
>
> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes captured, a
> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the app or my
> machine.
>
> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to
> associate voices with the emails.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
>