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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> on 2003/12/02 09:58:02 UTC
[ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
There is a vote about Geronimo name that has created confusion, a PPMC
discussion that is left half way, and comments about the Incubator not
working that are finally getting constructive.
I'd like to starting sorting this out one by one, and get this done.
Here is the plan:
1 - define the final model for the Incubator
2 - create the PPMCs
3 - let the Geronimo PPMC decide for a new name, that may as well
still be Geronimo
IMNSHO Geronimo can easily go on without a logo or a final name for a
couple of weeks if needed, so I'll wait to get 3 done after 1 and 2 are
done.
On to problem solving...
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 3, 2003, at 3:55 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
> ...
>> Can we get the committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can
>> finally wrap this up?
>
> We have decided that the name must be reconsidered by the project.
<chuckle>
IIRC, the Geronimo project is obligated to reconsider their project
name as one of the conditions of Incubation.
I have no idea why we had to vote on it...
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Wed, Dec 03, 2003 at 09:55:15AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Aaron Bannert wrote:
> ...
> >Can we get the committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can
> >finally wrap this up?
>
> We have decided that the name must be reconsidered by the project. We
> don't yet have anything to represent the project, as it will be the
> PPMC. Thus this will be the first chore of the PPMC of the Apache J2EE
> project. I don't see this as a problem as I think that we will be having
> it set up fairly soon.
>
> In the meantime we surely can start a thread on the developer list about
> a new name. Once the PPMC will be set up, the discussion can be wrapped
> up, voted upon, and then we can move on.
+1 this seems like a very reasonable course of action.
-aaron
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
...
> Can we get the committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can
> finally wrap this up?
We have decided that the name must be reconsidered by the project. We
don't yet have anything to represent the project, as it will be the
PPMC. Thus this will be the first chore of the PPMC of the Apache J2EE
project. I don't see this as a problem as I think that we will be having
it set up fairly soon.
In the meantime we surely can start a thread on the developer list about
a new name. Once the PPMC will be set up, the discussion can be wrapped
up, voted upon, and then we can move on.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Dec 3, 2003, at 12:27 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 08:04:58PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 2, 2003, at 5:40 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
> [...]
>>> I would
>>> like to hear what the current Geronimo committers think about the
>>> vote, and if they are ok with selecting a new name (or if they are
>>> vehemently opposed to choosing a new name). I realize that a
>>> discussion about the name has already occured within the committers,
>>> but I don't know if that decision was unanimous. Can we get the
>>> committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can finally wrap
>>> this up?
>>
>> They would in the PPMC. If you feel that it would be valid to have
>> the
>> committers decide - something I'm really glad to see - lets use this
>> as
>> a motivation to get the PPMC structure setup, get a mail list for
>> them,
>> and watch them go.
>>
>> Given that PPMC decisions are subject to PMC and board oversight,
>> there's no risk in doing it this way.
>
> There most certainly is risk here.
>
> People want to get to work on their project, and they need to know
> the name is set in stone. We can't have people making logos and
> webpages
> and o.a.geronimo.foo classes when at the end of it all when it comes
> time to exit the incubator, they have to change everything they've
> been working on.
I'm thinking you are confusing my point with someone else's comment,
and also going beyond what we're supposed to do here. The Geronomo
project is well w/in their right to change the name at the last moment,
by the letter of the law. It would be momentously stupid to do that,
of course.
I didn't say "Give to PPMC and let them sit on it". I just think it's
a tad arrogant for us to declare the game over w/o ONE project
committer voting.
>
> Maybe you'd rather just use the PPMC as an avenue to ignore the
> votes of the Incubator PMC and those members who have said they
> want the name to change?
Please, take a moment and reread everything I've posted on the subject.
I suggested creating the PPMC in the first place to make sure that the
project members are involved in the governance of their own project and
cement the understanding that it must align with the ASF.
I think that the incubator PMC dictating a change on a project that
didn't get a chance to resolve an issue itself is exactly the opposite
of what we want to teach people the ASF is about.
I want the Geronimo PPMC to be formed, and given the chance to address
the question. We can beat them about the head and neck with a stick
later if we don't like their decision. But let them try to work it
out.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 08:04:58PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> On Dec 2, 2003, at 5:40 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
[...]
> > I would
> >like to hear what the current Geronimo committers think about the
> >vote, and if they are ok with selecting a new name (or if they are
> >vehemently opposed to choosing a new name). I realize that a
> >discussion about the name has already occured within the committers,
> >but I don't know if that decision was unanimous. Can we get the
> >committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can finally wrap
> >this up?
>
> They would in the PPMC. If you feel that it would be valid to have the
> committers decide - something I'm really glad to see - lets use this as
> a motivation to get the PPMC structure setup, get a mail list for them,
> and watch them go.
>
> Given that PPMC decisions are subject to PMC and board oversight,
> there's no risk in doing it this way.
There most certainly is risk here.
People want to get to work on their project, and they need to know
the name is set in stone. We can't have people making logos and webpages
and o.a.geronimo.foo classes when at the end of it all when it comes
time to exit the incubator, they have to change everything they've
been working on.
Maybe you'd rather just use the PPMC as an avenue to ignore the
votes of the Incubator PMC and those members who have said they
want the name to change?
-aaron
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by James Strachan <ja...@yahoo.co.uk>.
On 3 Dec 2003, at 01:04, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> On Dec 2, 2003, at 5:40 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 09:58:02AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>>> IMNSHO Geronimo can easily go on without a logo or a final name for a
>>> couple of weeks if needed, so I'll wait to get 3 done after 1 and 2
>>> are
>>> done.
>>
>> Please don't postpone this any longer.
>
> Right - lets get the PPMC setup and have *them* deal with it.
+1
James
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Dec 2, 2003, at 5:40 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 09:58:02AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> IMNSHO Geronimo can easily go on without a logo or a final name for a
>> couple of weeks if needed, so I'll wait to get 3 done after 1 and 2
>> are
>> done.
>
> Please don't postpone this any longer.
Right - lets get the PPMC setup and have *them* deal with it.
> We have had a vote.
Which of these are binding votes? ;)
> I would
> like to hear what the current Geronimo committers think about the
> vote, and if they are ok with selecting a new name (or if they are
> vehemently opposed to choosing a new name). I realize that a
> discussion about the name has already occured within the committers,
> but I don't know if that decision was unanimous. Can we get the
> committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can finally wrap
> this up?
They would in the PPMC. If you feel that it would be valid to have the
committers decide - something I'm really glad to see - lets use this as
a motivation to get the PPMC structure setup, get a mail list for them,
and watch them go.
Given that PPMC decisions are subject to PMC and board oversight,
there's no risk in doing it this way.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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RE: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> > I believe the most appropriate thing is to table this for the PPMC to
> > handle.
> What's the point of pretending the PPMC can take responsibility for
> this when at the end of it a bunch of people are going to say it has
> to change it's name before leaving incubation?
I'll tell you why. Because it isn't pretending. And although it is
respectful to include the Geronimo community in the decision process, it is
also important. PPMC does not stand for "Practice" PMC. It would be a PMC
subcommittee, tasked with the oversight of that particular part of the
overall project. Geronimo PPMC must take that responsibility. Geronimo is
intended to be a PMC. If/when Geronimo leaves the Incubator, the PPMC,
minus the rest of the Incubator PMC, would become the Geronimo PMC. They
have a responsibility to demonstrate that they can provide governance.
Jeremy isn't saying that a decision doesn't have to be made. He is saying
that it should be made by the Geronimo PPMC. And he's correct. James said
the same thing earlier.
--- Noel
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 04:41:46PM -0800, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
> I believe the most appropriate thing is to table this for the PPMC to
> handle.
What's the point of pretending the PPMC can take responsibility for
this when at the end of it a bunch of people are going to say it has
to change it's name before leaving incubation?
Let's take care of this now and get done with it.
-aaron
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <je...@coredevelopers.net>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 09:58:02AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>IMNSHO Geronimo can easily go on without a logo or a final name for a
>>couple of weeks if needed, so I'll wait to get 3 done after 1 and 2 are
>>done.
>
>
> Please don't postpone this any longer. We have had a vote. I would
> like to hear what the current Geronimo committers think about the
> vote, and if they are ok with selecting a new name (or if they are
> vehemently opposed to choosing a new name). I realize that a
> discussion about the name has already occured within the committers,
> but I don't know if that decision was unanimous. Can we get the
> committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can finally wrap
> this up?
>
I believe the most appropriate thing is to table this for the PPMC to
handle.
--
Jeremy
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RE: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
I don't see Geir, James Strachan, or any of the Geronimo folks on that list.
And I am not sure if you have all of the votes recorded properly. As I
understood Roy, he said that he'd prefer a different name (as would I), but
I don't believe that he veto'd its use (neither did I). He vetoed the idea
that it was too late to change, and said that they must be willing to
change. Not that they must change.
--- Noel
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Re: [ROADMAP] Incubator Reorganization and getting *real* stuff done
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Tue, Dec 02, 2003 at 09:58:02AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> IMNSHO Geronimo can easily go on without a logo or a final name for a
> couple of weeks if needed, so I'll wait to get 3 done after 1 and 2 are
> done.
Please don't postpone this any longer. We have had a vote. I would
like to hear what the current Geronimo committers think about the
vote, and if they are ok with selecting a new name (or if they are
vehemently opposed to choosing a new name). I realize that a
discussion about the name has already occured within the committers,
but I don't know if that decision was unanimous. Can we get the
committers to vote/voice their opinion here so we can finally wrap
this up?
FWIW, here's the tally so far as I count it (and I didn't differenciate
between members/nonmembers/PMCerc/etc):
Allow to keep the name:
gstein
jvanzyl
henri
sally
Punt: nobody
Disallow name (community must pick another):
striker
rbowen
brian
sanjiva
fielding
aaron
noelbergman
nicolaken
Unclear vote:
leosimons (but he was clearly against disallowing the name)
-aaron
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