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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org> on 2003/02/01 00:09:12 UTC
Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:23, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> As far as I can tel the Excalibur CLI package should be depricated in
> favour of the Commons CLI package.
>
> Any objections?
Yep the Commons CLI is beyond our control. It is also coupled to several
dependencies last time I checked. No need to deprecate something that works
and is used when there is no migration path.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue ExcaliburCLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@realityforge.org>.
On Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:26, Darrell DeBoer wrote:
> You could either use an interceptor on static method calls (AOP-ish), or
> maybe something as simple as a LogFactory which always grabs a Logger from
> a ThreadLocal, which would be set up by the container when it passes calls
> to a component (which is also AOP-ish, I guess).
Yep. Thats the general conclusion - theres a mail in the archives that I sent
to Mauro that describes just how to do this.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue ExcaliburCLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Darrell DeBoer <da...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 09:00, Paul Hammant wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> >> The build file refers to Commons Logging... though I am not sure if
> >> the java code does...
> >
> > There are no references to commons logging in the build or test
> > sources in Common CLI. I figure this is just an error in the buildfile.
>
> It does raise an interesting point though : we sit here _petrified_ that
> they might put in a dependancy to commons-logging at the drop of a hat.
>
> See
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-commons-sandbox/attributes/src/ja
>va/org/apache/commons/attributes/Attributes.java (v1.3) for trivial use of
> logging :
>
> } catch (Exception e) {
> logger.warn("failed to initialize specified implementation " +
> "of AttributeFinder, using default", e);
> }
>
> At any moment, any Commons package may use commons-logging.
> They just do not understand how we want instance-capable logging
> rather than term/class level logging.
>
I've been wondering lately about how hard it would be to provide a
Commons-Logging LogFactory implementation, which permits true IoC and
instance-capable logging in avalon, but is comaptible with Commons-Logging
code. It seems to me that commons-logging isn't going away, so we need to
tame it...
You could either use an interceptor on static method calls (AOP-ish), or maybe
something as simple as a LogFactory which always grabs a Logger from a
ThreadLocal, which would be set up by the container when it passes calls to a
component (which is also AOP-ish, I guess).
I haven't tried this out, or given it that much thought - but I find it hard
to believe that you gurus haven't ;).
--
cheers,
Darrell DeBoer
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Stephen,
>> The build file refers to Commons Logging... though I am not sure if
>> the java code does...
>
>
>
> There are no references to commons logging in the build or test
> sources in Common CLI. I figure this is just an error in the buildfile.
It does raise an interesting point though : we sit here _petrified_ that
they might put in a dependancy to commons-logging at the drop of a hat.
See
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-commons-sandbox/attributes/src/java/org/apache/commons/attributes/Attributes.java
(v1.3) for trivial use of logging :
} catch (Exception e) {
logger.warn("failed to initialize specified implementation " +
"of AttributeFinder, using default", e);
}
At any moment, any Commons package may use commons-logging.
They just do not understand how we want instance-capable logging
rather than term/class level logging.
Anyway, these days I choose a wisdom of soloman type of
solution - 'no logging' . . . monitor instead (for reusable beans).
There are those that love static, and those that hate it..
- Paul
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> Stephen,
>
> The build file refers to Commons Logging... though I am not sure if
> the java code does...
There are no references to commons logging in the build or test sources
in Common CLI. I figure this is just an error in the buildfile.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@yahoo.com>.
Stephen,
The build file refers to Commons Logging... though I am not sure if the
java code does...
- Paul
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RE: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> acceptable compromise?
Seems reasonable. I didn't hear about code breaking, and you're assuming
that the Common CLI folks will be amendable.
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
how about...
1) we contact the people who maintain commons-cli. We explain to them
our dillemma, and that we would like to have some assurances that
commons-cli will not develop more dependencies than the one on
commons-lang, especially not on any package which will make application
of IoC in avalon more difficult, like commons-logging in its current form.
2) if the commons-cli peeps are willing to help accomodate our IoC
needs, we move our development code (like any new containers) over to
use it if we haven't already.
3) For phoenix and any other existing avalon code that uses
excalibur-cli, we do a point release (excalibur-cli-1.0.1) as part of
our release cycle and upgrade to that in the next phoenix release.
4) After the point release of excalibur-cli we deprecate the
excalibur-cli package in cvs head and have it sit around for a year or
so with no new releases. If no new release proves neccessary after that
and no problems have evolved with the use of commons-cli, we can
completely discontinue excalibur-cli.
acceptable compromise?
cheers!
- Leo
(PS: the more [proposal]s are tagged as [vote], the more difficult it
becomes to do filtering :D)
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 06:34 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Commons logging is not included with commons cli.
> For all of the things that Phoenix is doing with Excalibur CLI you can
> do the same thing with just the commons-cli package.
> Does this remove your concern?
yes.
-peter
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Peter Royal wrote:
> On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 12:32 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>> Just as a note - Phoneix, James and Cocoon are using Excalibur CLI.
>> James usage is restricted to a single testcase runner which will will
>> probably disappear as James evolves its test framework. Cocoon has a
>> Main.java with some command line operations. Phoniex usage is also
>> isolated to a single source and not much more complicated than the
>> Cocoon scenario. There is also a
>
>
> I would like Phoenix to remain with the Excalibur CLI for now. The
> inclusion of commons-logging with commons-cli is troubling to me.
Commons logging is not included with commons cli.
For all of the things that Phoenix is doing with Excalibur CLI you can
do the same thing with just the commons-cli package.
Does this remove your concern?
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 12:32 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> Just as a note - Phoneix, James and Cocoon are using Excalibur CLI.
> James usage is restricted to a single testcase runner which will will
> probably disappear as James evolves its test framework. Cocoon has a
> Main.java with some command line operations. Phoniex usage is also
> isolated to a single source and not much more complicated than the
> Cocoon scenario. There is also a
I would like Phoenix to remain with the Excalibur CLI for now. The
inclusion of commons-logging with commons-cli is troubling to me.
-pete
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Do you want that we discuntinue Excalibur CLI in favor of Jakarta
> Commons CLI?
>
> +1
>
+1
Just as a note - Phoneix, James and Cocoon are using Excalibur CLI.
James usage is restricted to a single testcase runner which will will
probably disappear as James evolves its test framework. Cocoon has a
Main.java with some command line operations. Phoniex usage is also
isolated to a single source and not much more complicated than the
Cocoon scenario. There is also a reference to CLI in a Main.jar in the
Phyre project in Avalon Apps (very small usage but usage all the same).
None of these represent a challenge in migration. Finally, according to
Gump there is a dependency with the JMeter project and xml-forrest
(which I don;t have details on). Generally speaking the usage of
excalibur-cli is minor in comparisom with the broad support for commons CLI.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli
)
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>>> Are there any *technical* reasons why Commons CLI is impossible to use
>>> as a CLI package for us?
>>
>>
>> Seems to me that Peter Donald raised an issues that still needs to be
>> verified, corrected, or voted upon as insignificant:
>>
>>>> It is also coupled to several dependencies last time I checked.
>>>
>>
>> Apparently, he feels that these additional dependencies prevent
>> Commons CLI
>> from being a migration path.
>
>
> commons-logging and commons-lang AFAIK.
There are no code depedencies on common.logging.
This appears to be an error in the build file.
Cheers, Steve.
>
> Is that an issue for others too?
>
>> Personally, I haven't a clue what dependencies or their
>> significance. Just
>> noting the specific outstanding issue.
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli
)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>Are there any *technical* reasons why Commons CLI is impossible to use
>>as a CLI package for us?
>
> Seems to me that Peter Donald raised an issues that still needs to be
> verified, corrected, or voted upon as insignificant:
>
>>>It is also coupled to several dependencies last time I checked.
>
> Apparently, he feels that these additional dependencies prevent Commons CLI
> from being a migration path.
commons-logging and commons-lang AFAIK.
Is that an issue for others too?
> Personally, I haven't a clue what dependencies or their significance. Just
> noting the specific outstanding issue.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI [offlist]
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Commons CLI has a dependency on common.lang (used for String to type
>> conversion) and commons.lang has no dependencies. If you don't need
>> command line argument string value to type conversion then you don't
>> need to worry about commons.lang. But anyway, I don't see that a
>> dependency to commons.lang as a problem.
>
>
> I find Commons lang really cool. Finally useful sugar for String
> utilities.
>
> Oh, and it also has a NestableException too, we have the cascading
> one... we should decide if it makes sense to move to that eventually
> for A5 (no comment snow please, just a note).
>
Nicols:
I wrote almost the same thing - instead I noted the string to type
conversion scattered all around the place (DefaultConfiguration,
Parameters, etc), suggesting that this could be consolidated against
commons lang. Then I snipped the paragraph on the grounds that I was
asking for trouble ;-).
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli
)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
...
> Commons CLI has a dependency on common.lang (used for String to type
> conversion) and commons.lang has no dependencies. If you don't need
> command line argument string value to type conversion then you don't
> need to worry about commons.lang. But anyway, I don't see that a
> dependency to commons.lang as a problem.
I find Commons lang really cool. Finally useful sugar for String utilities.
Oh, and it also has a NestableException too, we have the cascading
one... we should decide if it makes sense to move to that eventually
for A5 (no comment snow please, just a note).
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli
)
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>Peter Donald raised two objections: (1) that Commons CLI is not under
>>our control, and (2) that depedencies that Commons CLI has on other
>>projects.
>>
>>
>
>I discarded the first as not being germaine, and only addressed the second.
>
>
>
>>Commons CLI has a dependency on common.lang (used for String to type
>>conversion) and commons.lang has no dependencies.
>>
>>
>
>Just that one, and it is optional?
>
No. But if you don't use the feature of command line strong value to
object convertion - then you can run without problem using just the
commons-cli package.
>
>And using Commons lang will allow other things to simplify by using Commons
>lang for string conversions?
>
>
Yes.
Cheers, Steve.
> --- Noel
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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RE: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Peter Donald raised two objections: (1) that Commons CLI is not under
> our control, and (2) that depedencies that Commons CLI has on other
> projects.
I discarded the first as not being germaine, and only addressed the second.
> Commons CLI has a dependency on common.lang (used for String to type
> conversion) and commons.lang has no dependencies.
Just that one, and it is optional?
And using Commons lang will allow other things to simplify by using Commons
lang for string conversions?
--- Noel
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Saturday, February 1, 2003, at 05:24 PM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
> I remain in favour of giving Excalibur CLI a free ticket to Florida.
HEY! Some of us live in Florida! ;)
-pete
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Re: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli
)
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>Are there any *technical* reasons why Commons CLI is impossible to use
>>as a CLI package for us?
>>
>>
>
>Seems to me that Peter Donald raised an issues that still needs to be
>verified, corrected, or voted upon as insignificant:
>
Peter Donald raised two objections: (1) that Commons CLI is not under
our control, and (2) that depedencies that Commons CLI has on other
projects.
As far as "control" is concerned - I consider "out-of-our-control" to be
a plus. Command line management is not something with the scope Avalon.
The fact that a commons solution exists which is consitent with
Excalibur CLI is a real plus. It means that we can confidently release
control.
>>>It is also coupled to several dependencies last time I checked.
>>>
>>>
>
>Apparently, he feels that these additional dependencies prevent Commons CLI
>from being a migration path.
>
>Personally, I haven't a clue what dependencies or their significance. Just
>noting the specific outstanding issue.
>
>
Commons CLI has a dependency on common.lang (used for String to type
conversion) and commons.lang has no dependencies. If you don't need
command line argument string value to type conversion then you don't
need to worry about commons.lang. But anyway, I don't see that a
dependency to commons.lang as a problem.
I remain in favour of giving Excalibur CLI a free ticket to Florida.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:mcconnell@apache.org
http://www.osm.net
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RE: [VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [?EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Are there any *technical* reasons why Commons CLI is impossible to use
> as a CLI package for us?
Seems to me that Peter Donald raised an issues that still needs to be
verified, corrected, or voted upon as insignificant:
> > It is also coupled to several dependencies last time I checked.
Apparently, he feels that these additional dependencies prevent Commons CLI
from being a migration path.
Personally, I haven't a clue what dependencies or their significance. Just
noting the specific outstanding issue.
--- Noel
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[VOTE] Discontinue Excalibur CLI ( was Re: [£EXCALIBUR] cli )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2003 12:23, Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
>>As far as I can tel the Excalibur CLI package should be depricated in
>>favour of the Commons CLI package.
>>
>>Any objections?
>
> Yep the Commons CLI is beyond our control.
This is not a reason IMHO. Xerces is, Xalan is, QDox is, HttpClient is,
as well as many other jars we depend on. Wanting to control everything
has brought us to a big excalibur with packages that have directly
nothing to do with Avalon, and CLI is one of them.
> It is also coupled to several
> dependencies last time I checked. No need to deprecate something that works
> and is used when there is no migration path.
Commons CLI is our migration path. They seem to be very receptive, have
included features we needed, and are now evaluating a patch from Nick
Chalko of Krysalis to be totally reflective. I encouraged him to work
with them instead of doing it on his own, and I do the same here.
Are there any *technical* reasons why Commons CLI is impossible to use
as a CLI package for us?
Besides, on http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/cli/ I read:
"
CLI : Command Line Interface
The CLI library provides a simple and easy to use API for working with
the command line arguments and options.
CLI is based on ideas and code from
* werken.opt by Bob Mcwhirter
* The cli package in Avalon Excalibur by Peter Donald
* Optz by John Keyes
"
For these reasons, and for the fact that we had already informally
decided AFAIK to switch to the Commons version, I as us to vote.
Do you want that we discuntinue Excalibur CLI in favor of Jakarta
Commons CLI?
+1
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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